Why is the Bible not more explicit about UR?

[Brieuc]

Hello everybody,

Unfortunately I still have a lot of troubles with my faith regarding universal salvation. I hope those I already wrote dont't mind if I write again my questions here but I cannot find an issue with this. I hope I won't confuse anybody with my struggles.

So, I am a christian that hopes in the salvation of all men and even the fallen angels and satan himself. I came across the universal salvation doctrine and the wonderful book "hope beyond hell" from Gerry Beauchemin" and also some articles on the tentmaker website. It was a release to hear that this possibility could be true.

Unfortunately, I am still not sure that this doctrine is true and there are a lot of verses which are difficult for me to interpret in an universalistic way.

For example:
1 Corinthians 15:22-24King James Version (KJV)
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

I am asking myself, why didn't Paul wrote directly something like "Then cometh all those who didn't believe in Jesus while on Earth" or something like that. Why did he instead wrote "Then cometh the end". It's sounds to me like if it is finished after verse 23 and that and no more people will come to Christ at that point.

Or another example: this passage
From Isaiah 53: "by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify
many, and he will bear their iniquities."

I was wondering why God allowed the word "many" to be put and not
"all". For me it sounds either like not all will be saved our maybe
that God wanted it to be complicated for us to come to this truth, or something like that. Either way it doesn't help me and even if
universalim is the real doctrine, which I hope with all my heart, I
sometimes feeled mad on God for allowing me to think for so many months that he will burn my love ones forever and still allowing me sometimes to think they will maybe not be saved and suffer for eternity. Why is he doing or allowing this?

Also, why isn't the Bible more clear on this subject. For instance, if somebody takes the book "hope beyond hell" I doubt even a non christian will not understand that Gerry Beauchemin is talking about the salvation of all. Why isn't the case with the Bible which should help me on my journey to find God but instead is doing it more complicate?

Thank you in advance for your help and I wish you all the best.

Brieuc

[CHB]

Hi Brieuc,

[quote/]
I was wondering why God allowed the word "many" to be put and not [/quote]

The way I see this is. Paul used the word many also, if he had used the word all, that would have included Jesus. (Rom. 5:19) Jesus wasn't a sinner, and he didn't need to be made righteous.

CHB 

[Shev]

I believe that sometimes the scriptures are explicit, such as "every knee will bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father", or that Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, "and not our sins only, but the sins of the whole world". These can hardly be more clear.

That all being said, remember that Jesus Himself spoke in parables, so that "seeing they might not see" etc. The mysteries were kept veiled except for those to whom He would reveal them. I think there is an aspect of this in many eternal truths. God does not always fling out pearls to be trampled underfoot, but rather draws His people in the truth precept upon precept. I would hazard a guess that everyone here has come to believe in UR, and then becoming rooted in the truth, bit by bit, not in one "download of all mysteries".

There would be practical reasons for this too. So many ET Christians respond to UR with "if that is the case, why don't we all just sin?", showing that they still hanker after Egypt. If it were a generally known truth, it might be used as an excuse for license, who knows? Whatever the divine reasons, we are where we are.

Ultimately, I think it is important to note that if you ask an ET believer why they believe it, they will almost without exception say something like "I/We have always been taught it", whereas if you ask someone why they believe UR, they will say "I received it and continue to receive it by revelation". That is an important distinction!

[Brieuc]

Hello CHB et Shev. Thank you a lot for your replies and your interesting points.

CHB, you said that if Paul had used the word "all", it would have included Jesus but in

1 Timothy 2:3-4New International Version (NIV)

3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

In the same manner, we could also say in this verse that "all" could include Jesus but Timothy choosed to put the word "all" here so why not Isaiah also? Or at least he could have put in Isaiah 53:11,"all the other men " instead of "many", then it would have been clearier.

Nonetheless, I understand your point and I see the parallel with Rom. 5:19 and you are probably right, maybe it is in the same way that Isaiah 53 was written. And that goes in the same way that Shev is interestingly describing in his post. It would therefore mean that God didn't want this message to be clear to everybody, at least at first glance, maybe for the reason Shev is also writing: "God does not always fling out pearls to be trampled underfoot".

But then the big problem I have is that, if this is correct, it means God knew that people will suffer believing ECT or even annihilationism because he didn't want universalim to be clear at first glance (at least for me) and, like I wrote in my message, God allowed me to suffer so much believing that my loved ones would maybe spend eternity in hell-fire. How could he do or allow this? How could he permit such type of psychologic suffering? I mean I am suppose to love God but he allowed me to suffer so much because of this doctrine ? How can I deal with that ?

Thank you again both of you and I hope again that I am not confusing you with my struggles.

[jugghead]

I would see it as: being perfected through suffering

Because suffering has such an impact on our life, when we are brought into the peace of the truth, you would in no way want to go back to it

You cannot be bewitched as Paul stated of the Galatians, you cannot fall away from your faith

my  :2c:

[Shev]

Hello Brieuc,

As far as God not being clear from the start, every human that ever lived (aside from Jesus Himself) is on a journey from deception to full revelation, and no-one had all the truth up front. God has shut us all up in disobedience that He might have mercy upon all, in due course.

The suffering is a similar issue. All have suffered, and so many continue to suffer absolute horrors, and yet God willingly entered into this suffering in the life, death and rising of Christ. He chastises every son He receives, and by many tribulations we must enter the kingdom. Our suffering does not mean a lack of love on His part, or else He has not loved anyone that has lived and suffered - including Jesus! But our suffering is working the nature of God into us, and the sufferings of this present age are not worthy to be compared to the glory that shall be revealed in us.

God bless!

[marie glen]

Why is the Bible not more explicit about UR?

hi! :hiya:

First reason, I think, when we look at the interlinear (at biblehub.com or elsewhere) and study on the words used originally, we find that the translators seem to always lean toward the most extreme possible use of the hebrew or the greek..

And other words they are just simply off - like how does aionion, the root of the word era, get to be always "forever"?

Another reason I believe is teaching/education causes us to see verses in a certain way..

For instance -

Ephesians 1:10- that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

Colossians 1:20 - and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

In these, the Greek word "pas" G3956 is the word used, and translated all, means - all, the whole - but it seems to be overlooked by us! How, or why is that? Because, I believe, we've been trained to read the bible a certain way.. as the translators did, with the preconceived idea and presupposition that the pre-christian / non-Hebrew ideas of inherent immortality, and thus hell,or other gloomy afterlife is needed for wrongdoers, is truth.. So strong are those ideas - originally from the original lie "surely you won't die..?" are so strong in the human psyche that even nonbiblical writings of the Hebrews, like the Talmud, include these dark myths..

These verses are a good start for seeing UR (CU) in the scriptures! :thumbsup: :cloud9:
- http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/77-ultimate-reconciliation-and-renewal-scriptures/msg118063/#msg118063

And then, of course, there's logic! Plus His Word - "God is light and in Him is no darkness at all"... "GOd is Love".. "His steadfast love, faithfulness(truth) and mercy endures forever" ..."His anger is but for a moment.."

He is perfect - "be ye perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect" Can perfect make any mistake? Can perfect lose anything? Can the 'end' result be anything less than perfection and the best 'end' result possible?

"Just as death came through one man, Adam - a type of Christ - causing the many" Greek, hoi/the polloi/many - which can be translated, the multitude, "to die, in the same way life came to the many"

How do we miss - the result that death came to the many - and we know death came to all (yes?) what Jesus did is far greater and better.. "God's grace is much greater" - what is greater than "all"? Or, that is, if it does not include "all" then how is it "greater".

Also, how is it possible God, who is Perfect, all loving and all powerful, could lose more than He can save..?!

But mostly, we have been trained not to see it.. not intentionally, I don't believe.. but handed down that way for a very long time..

I believe God is letting many things simply run their natural course.. and part of letting ET be entrenched in the faith is what a relief when a sinner, some grave evildoers, oppressors, etc.. rise upon judgment 'day' thinking wow, they are reaLLy in for it now! But surprise! It is Day of Atonement after all!  :banana: If He didn't let many things run their natural course.. what would all this prove?

But His wisdom! Wow! We are learning good from evil (life from death, truth from untrue) and I believe it is even being deeply engraved upon every heart and mind.. And even more so as 'day' of judgment (correction, pruning, purifying) is underway.. deeply and forever etched upon all hearts with His very finger.. I also believe HE is life itself.. so He suffers it all.. all the suffering.. why - would He put Himself through all that?!
      :2c: :Peace2:

[itivino]

I would see it as: being perfected through suffering

Because suffering has such an impact on our life, when we are brought into the peace of the truth, you would in no way want to go back to it

You cannot be bewitched as Paul stated of the Galatians, you cannot fall away from your faith

my  :2c:

I think this is it - I don't think that I would come anywhere close to knowing the beauty of our God who is saving each and every one of us and His creation. For many others I'm certain it does, but I wouldn't trade away one moment (outside of my sinfulness) of the 20 years of my life of trying to believe in ect. I'm actually thankful that I tried to believe it because otherwise I don't think I'd be able to believe with my whole will, spirit, soul, intellect, in our God who is the father of Jesus and of the same spirit as Him. That was one of the main turning points - not so much the intellectual region, but rather that I knew it was impossible to be honestly believe ect. The suffering from trying to believe it I won't even try to describe, you know well enough more than I could explain.

But to the main question, I think things aren't crystal clear because we have to learn by obedience, not be our intellects. Only by learning through obedience can we believe something fully, with our will, mind, and spirit. That can only come from the Holy Spirit, not by any facts our intellects capture from reading the Bible. The Bible brings us to the living Jesus - we must obey Him, test against Scripture, but all knowledge comes from Him.

Anything learned by our intellects and not obeyed truly is darkness and not light. Our Father is living - the Bible brings us to Jesus, Word, and He has revelations for each one of us. Once I knew that God was saving all, all fear was gone - we must not be afraid to run to God rather than cling to the outskirts for safety. Suffering is not to be minded, punishment and Hell belong to God not the devil. It is one of his beautiful gifts and Jesus works alongside with it to make us perfect.

[WhiteWings]

Why is the Bible not more explicit about UR?

Maybe the Bible was explicit about it.
Take random very clear message, start changing the meaning of words and see how clear it is after a few thousand years.

I really think that's part of the problem. Add some pagan influences and it gets even more unclear. The pagan influences stand at the basis of some changes of word meanings.


Then add 'forgotten concepts' to the mix and all clarity is gone.
Fire can be nasty but in those days it was also understood as purifying. Sulfur was the very important disinfectant in those days. The Lake of Fire and Sulfur....
In the NT we read about all sorts of test and punishments etc. When you study the underlying Greek words you will notice it's all about refining gold.

So the message may have been very clear until mankind started to 'improve' it...
Click

[anti_nietzsche]

I learned from a sister that the bible text is really multidimensional and most words have varied meanings which fit together to build alternate texts and readings different from the first and literal meaning. For example, when it is written that Abraham moves to Gerar, the literal meaning is small, Abraham moved to a town named Gerar. But in the multidimensional reading, Gerar also means to chew the cud. You rehearse your life with God and think it all through once more, remembering every detail and searching its purpose. That's hidden in the small text of Abraham moving to Gerar. Likewise, almost every text in the bible has secondary meanings where spiritual laws are revealed, where clues are given, where enlightenment is coming to us. You rarely have to take the bible literally. Death is a synonym for becoming obedient and converted. Cities were devoted by fire means that the inhabitants were converted and became enflamed with faith in Yahweh. There is no literal death scaring in the bible if you know the second dimensions. God is peace and love then, and enlightenment for our lives. The bible becomes much richer than what we may have presumed before.

[jugghead]

Awesome guys,

talk about the Spirit of the Word raining down to drown all fleshly mindsets

death shall be swallowed up by Life

[CHB]

Why is the Bible not more explicit about UR?

Maybe the Bible was explicit about it.
Take random very clear message, start changing the meaning of words and see how clear it is after a few thousand years.

I really think that's part of the problem. Add some pagan influences and it gets even more unclear. The pagan influences stand at the basis of some changes of word meanings.


Then add 'forgotten concepts' to the mix and all clarity is gone.
Fire can be nasty but in those days it was also understood as purifying. Sulfur was the very important disinfectant in those days. The Lake of Fire and Sulfur....
In the NT we read about all sorts of test and punishments etc. When you study the underlying Greek words you will notice it's all about refining gold.

So the message may have been very clear until mankind started to 'improve' it...
Click

I agree white wings. If we only had the original writings of all the books of the Bible  I think our understanding of them would be completely different.

CHB

[Patinak]

Why is the Bible not more explicit about UR?

Maybe the Bible was explicit about it.
Take random very clear message, start changing the meaning of words and see how clear it is after a few thousand years.

I really think that's part of the problem. Add some pagan influences and it gets even more unclear. The pagan influences stand at the basis of some changes of word meanings.


Then add 'forgotten concepts' to the mix and all clarity is gone.
Fire can be nasty but in those days it was also understood as purifying. Sulfur was the very important disinfectant in those days. The Lake of Fire and Sulfur....
In the NT we read about all sorts of test and punishments etc. When you study the underlying Greek words you will notice it's all about refining gold.

So the message may have been very clear until mankind started to 'improve' it...
Click

I agree white wings. If we only had the original writings of all the books of the Bible  I think our understanding of them would be completely different.

CHB

:iagree:

[darryl]

I struggle with it at times too....there's difficult verses for UR but also for ET....the evidence rather more supports UR though, imo....also, the closer I get to Jesus and taste His sweetness the more heinous ET becomes.Of course an 'eternal hellist' might say that is subjective and point to verses like '...the worm that never dies'...or, 'unquenchable fire'....hmmmm, it's not easy and gives raison d'être for saying 'why didn't God make it 100% absolutely beyond any doubt that all are ultimately redeemed...then again, there are several verses that do say unequivocally that ALL are saved so I think that if we keep those in mind and grow in Jesus's love and trust Him we can be 100% certain that all will be ok in the end and we will be in Heaven with our unsaved loved ones.

[eaglesway]

Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12"For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13"Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

14"In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
            'YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
            YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;

      15FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
            WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
            AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
            OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
            HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
            AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
            AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'

16"But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. 17"For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. Mt 13

In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. Eph 1

God leaves shadows upon the eyes of those who do not have a humble heart and a teachable spirit, but in the end every eye will see Him and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father, because He has bound all in disobedience that He may have mercy on all.

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be ALL IN ALLl.



All we can do is bear witness and pray. The rest is up to Him....... but let us study to show ourselves approved, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

[darryl]

Hello everybody,

Unfortunately I still have a lot of troubles with my faith regarding universal salvation. I hope those I already wrote dont't mind if I write again my questions here but I cannot find an issue with this. I hope I won't confuse anybody with my struggles.

So, I am a christian that hopes in the salvation of all men and even the fallen angels and satan himself. I came across the universal salvation doctrine and the wonderful book "hope beyond hell" from Gerry Beauchemin" and also some articles on the tentmaker website. It was a release to hear that this possibility could be true.

Unfortunately, I am still not sure that this doctrine is true and there are a lot of verses which are difficult for me to interpret in an universalistic way.

For example:
1 Corinthians 15:22-24King James Version (KJV)
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

I am asking myself, why didn't Paul wrote directly something like "Then cometh all those who didn't believe in Jesus while on Earth" or something like that. Why did he instead wrote "Then cometh the end". It's sounds to me like if it is finished after verse 23 and that and no more people will come to Christ at that point.

Or another example: this passage
From Isaiah 53: "by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify
many, and he will bear their iniquities."

I was wondering why God allowed the word "many" to be put and not
"all". For me it sounds either like not all will be saved our maybe
that God wanted it to be complicated for us to come to this truth, or something like that. Either way it doesn't help me and even if
universalim is the real doctrine, which I hope with all my heart, I
sometimes feeled mad on God for allowing me to think for so many months that he will burn my love ones forever and still allowing me sometimes to think they will maybe not be saved and suffer for eternity. Why is he doing or allowing this?

Also, why isn't the Bible more clear on this subject. For instance, if somebody takes the book "hope beyond hell" I doubt even a non christian will not understand that Gerry Beauchemin is talking about the salvation of all. Why isn't the case with the Bible which should help me on my journey to find God but instead is doing it more complicate?

Thank you in advance for your help and I wish you all the best.

Brieuc

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be ALL IN ALLl.

To me, this passage is one of the great UR passages. The penultimate part of this passage, that implicity spells out ALL will be 'saved', is 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death
God abolishes DEATH...and what is DEATH ?...surely it's the Second Death (it cannot mean the 'first death' which ends much earlier on in God's scheme of things) ,. It's the LAKE of FIRE which Scripture tells us is 'the Second Death. So, this verse PLAINLY tells us that the second death, the Lake of Fire, will be abolished and all those suffering the Second Death will be released !...released to what ?...that 'every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father !. :dsunny:

[Dandelion]

I think that as we learn to live in the Spirit, and not in the flesh, the Holy Spirit reveals more and more to us. It is the process that I believe God seeks for the most in us, and not so much the final outcome. He knows He has that covered.....I think He greatly enjoys watching us transform before His eyes, much as I love to watch my little students transform from a blossom to a beautiful rose. Much as we love to see our own children grow into adulthood. We are made in God's image, and He is our loving Father, who delights in us.

Learning what He has written in the scripture is a part of that.

As for God telling us, I think He has. Love never fails. 1 Corinthians 13:8

In many ways, I think that says it all, right there.

D.

[jugghead]

I think that as we learn to live in the Spirit, and not in the flesh, the Holy Spirit reveals more and more to us. It is the process that I believe God seeks for the most in us, and not so much the final outcome. He knows He has that covered.....I think He greatly enjoys watching us transform before His eyes, much as I love to watch my little students transform from a blossom to a beautiful rose. Much as we love to see our own children grow into adulthood. We are made in God's image, and He is our loving Father, who delights in us.

Learning what He has written in the scripture is a part of that.

As for God telling us, I think He has. Love never fails. 1 Corinthians 13:8

In many ways, I think that says it all, right there.

D.

:iagree: Beautifully stated from the heart

[Ross]

If all are to be sent to hell, why didn't Israel try to convert anyone?
Why were there no missionaries before Christ?
Even when Christ came, the Jews were not told who He was otherwise He would not have been able to die on the cross for us.
Then after the resurrection, and only after, Christ explained to the disciples what He had done and why.
I.M.O the bible is hidden from man so that no man can claim their position through their own efforts- Christ alone is the source of life so that He can be first in EVERYTHING.
Paul points out that the wall between Jews and Gentiles was broken down by Christ so that the two parties could become one In Christ- no more Jew, Greek, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, circumcised or uncircumcised, but ALL in Christ.- that seems pretty explicit.

[Dandelion]

Thank you, jugghead. That is just about the best compliment I could imagine.

D.

[marie glen]

Why is the Bible not more explicit about UR?

Maybe the Bible was explicit about it.
Take random very clear message, start changing the meaning of words and see how clear it is after a few thousand years.

I really think that's part of the problem. Add some pagan influences and it gets even more unclear. The pagan influences stand at the basis of some changes of word meanings.


Then add 'forgotten concepts' to the mix and all clarity is gone.
Fire can be nasty but in those days it was also understood as purifying. Sulfur was the very important disinfectant in those days. The Lake of Fire and Sulfur....
In the NT we read about all sorts of test and punishments etc. When you study the underlying Greek words you will notice it's all about refining gold.

So the message may have been very clear until mankind started to 'improve' it...
Click

Amen, amen!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

If all are to be sent to hell, why didn't Israel try to convert anyone?
Why were there no missionaries before Christ?
Even when Christ came, the Jews were not told who He was otherwise He would not have been able to die on the cross for us.
Then after the resurrection, and only after, Christ explained to the disciples what He had done and why.
I.M.O the bible is hidden from man so that no man can claim their position through their own efforts- Christ alone is the source of life so that He can be first in EVERYTHING.
Paul points out that the wall between Jews and Gentiles was broken down by Christ so that the two parties could become one In Christ- no more Jew, Greek, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, circumcised or uncircumcised, but ALL in Christ.- that seems pretty explicit.

Amen Ross! :iagree: :iagree:

I think that as we learn to live in the Spirit, and not in the flesh, the Holy Spirit reveals more and more to us. It is the process that I believe God seeks for the most in us, and not so much the final outcome. He knows He has that covered.....I think He greatly enjoys watching us transform before His eyes, much as I love to watch my little students transform from a blossom to a beautiful rose. Much as we love to see our own children grow into adulthood. We are made in God's image, and He is our loving Father, who delights in us.

Learning what He has written in the scripture is a part of that.

As for God telling us, I think He has. Love never fails. 1 Corinthians 13:8

In many ways, I think that says it all, right there.

D.

:iagree: Beautifully stated from the heart

I very much agree! :thumbsup: ...I now especially LOVE that verse, "Love never fails"! I need to remember/reference it more! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[marie glen]

I would see it as: being perfected through suffering

Because suffering has such an impact on our life, when we are brought into the peace of the truth, you would in no way want to go back to it

You cannot be bewitched as Paul stated of the Galatians, you cannot fall away from your faith

my  :2c:

I think this is it - I don't think that I would come anywhere close to knowing the beauty of our God who is saving each and every one of us and His creation. For many others I'm certain it does, but I wouldn't trade away one moment (outside of my sinfulness) of the 20 years of my life of trying to believe in ect. I'm actually thankful that I tried to believe it because otherwise I don't think I'd be able to believe with my whole will, spirit, soul, intellect, in our God who is the father of Jesus and of the same spirit as Him. That was one of the main turning points - not so much the intellectual region, but rather that I knew it was impossible to be honestly believe ect. The suffering from trying to believe it I won't even try to describe, you know well enough more than I could explain.

But to the main question, I think things aren't crystal clear because we have to learn by obedience, not be our intellects. Only by learning through obedience can we believe something fully, with our will, mind, and spirit. That can only come from the Holy Spirit, not by any facts our intellects capture from reading the Bible. The Bible brings us to the living Jesus - we must obey Him, test against Scripture, but all knowledge comes from Him.

Anything learned by our intellects and not obeyed truly is darkness and not light. Our Father is living - the Bible brings us to Jesus, Word, and He has revelations for each one of us. Once I knew that God was saving all, all fear was gone - we must not be afraid to run to God rather than cling to the outskirts for safety. Suffering is not to be minded, punishment and Hell belong to God not the devil. It is one of his beautiful gifts and Jesus works alongside with it to make us perfect.

Amen itivino! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: And jugghead! :iagree: :iagree:

[Dandelion]

Thank you, so much, Marie!               :HeartThrob:

Yes, for me, that verse hits the nail on the head. Not that we can rely on any one verse to give us the whole picture, but I feel it is in the 'spirit' of the what the Bible teaches.

D. 

[jugghead]

Thank you, jugghead. That is just about the best compliment I could imagine.

D.

You are very welcome D,

what brings me joy is to see joy through the eyes of another and that is what I saw through your eyes when I read those words :dsunny:

[Brieuc]

I have read all your very interesting comments. Thank you very much CHB, Shev, jugghead, marie glen, itivino, WhiteWings, anti_nietzsche, Patinak, darryl, eaglesway, Dandelion and Ross for having taken the time to answer me!

I would like to take this opportunity to give thanks also to all the members of this forum and tentmaker for their contributions! I am very glad this place exists, where we can share our same hope!