Who is Michael anyway?

[Beloved Servant]

Molly,
I addressed that already.

[Molly]

Molly,
I addressed that already.

you did?  Why does Jesus rebuke Satan, but archangel Michael dares not rebuke Satan?

The scripture tells us Michael dares not--why is that?

But, Jesus, in the form of a man, has no problem telling Satan to get lost--why is that?

[Molly]

Michael:

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke you.
Jude 1:9


Jesus:

You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.



Why did Michael become so bold when he became the man Jesus, such that he now dares to bring a railing accusation against Satan?  Calling Satan a murderer, a liar, the father of lies?  Where did that boldness come from?

Why the change in character?

[jabcat]

Michael:

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke you.
Jude 1:9


Jesus:

You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Sounds like 2 different individuals being described to me.

[WhiteWings]

Flying is no proof of wings.

Men don't fly.

Elephants don't fly either. Does that prove they are fish?
I bet Father can fly too. Is He an angel? Is He a plane?

Assume Scripture states: Eddy Elephant has 4 legs, Freddy Fish has no legs and Benny Bird has 2 legs and 2 wings.
Later someone states: I saw an animal without wings? We do know who it was not. But we don't know who it was.
A legged animal came to me. Who was it. (it wasn't Freddy Fish)

So my point is if an angel looks like a man with wings that doesn't mean everything with wings is an angel. Neither everything that looks like a man or can fly.
Only if it looks like a man and has wings you can assume it's an angel.
(and doesn't exclude the possibility of angels without wings)
:2c:

[WhiteWings]

I would like some feedback on reply #94

[Molly]

Flying is no proof of wings.

Men don't fly.

Elephants don't fly either. Does that prove they are fish?
I bet Father can fly too. Is He an angel? Is He a plane?

Assume Scripture states: Eddy Elephant has 4 legs, Freddy Fish has no legs and Benny Bird has 2 legs and 2 wings.
Later someone states: I saw an animal without wings? We do know who it was not. But we don't know who it was.
A legged animal came to me. Who was it. (it wasn't Freddy Fish)

So my point is if an angel looks like a man with wings that doesn't mean everything with wings is an angel. Neither everything that looks like a man or can fly.
Only if it looks like a man and has wings you can assume it's an angel.
(and doesn't exclude the possibility of angels without wings)
:2c:

My point was--if someone says, "I saw an angel flying through the sky", it's not unreasonable to picture a man with wings.  It might not fit your scientific idea of proof, but to say that person is a myth believer is just unfair.  In fact, I doubt that anyone would picture that as superman or an elephant or a talking bird--that would be unreasonable.

[Molly]

I would like some feedback on reply #94

I would expect the verse to be like: 2 And agent of LORD, said to Satan, LORD rebuke thee, O Satan. Yea, LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee. Is this not a brand plucked out of the fire?

And the LORD said to Satan, "I, the LORD, reject your accusations, Satan. Yes, the LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebukes you. This man is like a burning stick that has been snatched from the fire."
Zech 3:2

It's pretty clear it's the LORD who is speaking here.  And, he's also later speaking of himself in the third person.  This goes back to two YHWH's thread--Jesus in the OT. 

[sheila]

 evidently the Lord did rebuke satan,for the change of garments came to Joshua regardless of the adversaries objection.  It's all about the spirit,

  whether a vessel of an angel,or man. whether with wings,or form of man. Jesus Christ was given power and authority,both in heaven and earth.

   Angels[supernatural] wait on the Lord,also   You can also expect Michael and the angels to be present when your change of garment comes..

   for the adversary does resist the will of God[it is his function]

   actually,the mercy seat is above wings...why don't you all call Father to task as to why HE instructed it be made so.......look to the scriptures regarding wings

   shelter under His wings,like a hen gathers chicks under wings,like wings sheathed. Protection/even divine is what wings symbolize.....the VERY POWER OF GOD

  [spirit] IS SYMBOLIZED IN WINGS...also...the abomination is on a wing of the temple/singnaling another spirit in operation/covering


   No, Michael the archangel is not Jesus Christ...but I TELL YOU....GOD IS IN ALL HIS ANGELS,AND HIS SON ALSO...FOR THEY ARE ONE AND ALL DO

  THE WILL OF THE FATHER. IT IS ALWAYS GOD/FATHER DOING THE WORKS IN ALL HIS CREATURES,whether,a fish that swallows Jonah,an ass that rebukes,

  a lion whose mouth is shut,THE SON LAYING DOWN HIS LIFE,THE ANGEL THAT SLAYS 185,000 Assyrians,...IT IS ALL HIM....Now Father has  had

  HIS OWN DIVINE PLAN..and revealed it throughout the scriptures,whenever and however,and using whatever He please to declare it

   what is this Holy spirit in the bodily form of a dove[a winged creature] that remained upon Jesus Christ....and by this sign..John declared...

   Him that takes away the sin of the world.

[Molly]

When Joshua meets the Sar of the LORD's host, Joshua asks him --are you for us or for our enemies?

Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, "Are you for us or for our enemies?"
--Josh 5:13

Joshua wants to identify this man.  Does the man with the drawn sword say I am the prince of Israel, I am on your side?  NO he does not.  He says he is neither for Joshua or for his enemies, 'I am the Commander of the LORD's host'--then Joshua immediately knows who he is and falls down and worships him.

When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand. And Joshua went to him and said to him, "Are you for us, or for our adversaries?"
Josh 5:13

"Neither one," he replied. "I am the commander of the LORD's army." At this, Joshua fell with his face to the ground in reverence. "I am at your command," Joshua said. "What do you want your servant to do?"
--Joshua 5:14


If this were Michael, he would have told Joshua he was there for Israel.  Instead he says he is neither for Israel or for her enemies. Neither should Joshua have worshipped him unless he was divinity.

So this is a divine man who is for everyone, who is Prince of the LORD's host,  and deserves to be worshipped--who else could this be?

PS Joshua calls him, Adonai.

[sheila]

 Luke 7;8...the centurion

    For I myself am a man under authority,with soldiers under me,I tell this one,'Go' and he goes,"I tell that one 'come' and he comes,I say to my servant,'Do this" and he

     does it   When Jesus heard this He was amazed at him,and turning to the crowd following him,he said"I TELL YOU I HAVE NOT FOUND SUCH GREAT A FAITH

           EVEN IN ISRAEL"

[sheila]

1 Chron 28;18

    He also gave him the PLAN for the CHARIOT,THAT IS,....THE CHERUBIM OF GOD THAT SPREAD THEIR WINGS AND SHELTER THE ARK

   OF THE COVENANT OF THE LORD.

   ALL THIS,David said,I HAVE IN WRITING FROM THE HAND OF THE LORD UPON ME,AND HE GAVE ME UNDERSTANDING IN ALL

  THE DETAILS OF THE PLAN

[Molly]

The host of the LORD is made up of God's holy angels [and other celestial beings] and the saints.  Thus both Joshua and Michael would be part of the host of the LORD.


Angels are talked about in military terms:

An encampment of angels:

32:1 So Jacob went on his way and the angels of God1 met him. 32:2 When Jacob saw them, he exclaimed,2 "This is the camp of God!"


A heavenly army:

2:13 Suddenly40 a vast, heavenly army41 appeared with the angel, praising God and saying,
2:14 "Glory42 to God in the highest,

Luke 2:13



There is a command structure and hierarchy

13:41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather from his kingdom everything that causes sin as well as all lawbreakers.

The one at the top would command both angels and men.



They use combat tactics:

19:12 His troops32 advance together;

they throw up33 a siege ramp against me,

and they camp around my tent.

Job 19



12:7 Then20 war broke out in heaven: Michael21 and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. [Rev 12]



God is depicted as the God of the hosts,  LORD God of hosts, God of hosts, Lord of hosts.  Thus, God is above all.

[sheila]

 just as flight of the air has wings.[birds].so too, the spirit bears us on wings...I ask you, would not the cloven tongues of fire resemble wings of the cherubim/chariot

above the heads of those that receive the Holy spirit...and does not this symbolize those borne along of spirit. John 3;8

   Lev 1;14-17  if the offering to the Lord is a burnt offering of birds,he is to offer a dove or a young pigeon.......

       he shall TEAR IT OPEN[cleave] BY THE WINGS,NOT SEVERING IT COMPLETELY....AND THEN THE PREIST SHALL BURN IT ON THE WOOD

   THAT IS ON THE FIRE OF THE ALTAR. IT IS A BURNT OFFERING,AN OFFERING MADE BY FIRE,AN AROMA PLEASING TO GOD

[Molly]

Young's Literal Translation
And the Prince of Jehovah's host saith unto Joshua, 'Cast off thy shoe from off thy foot, for the place on which thou art standing is holy;' and Joshua doth so; [Josh 5:15]

Now the gates of Jericho were tightly shut because the people were afraid of the Israelites. No one was allowed to go out or in.[Josh 6:1]

The LORD said to Joshua, "See, I have given Jericho into your hand, with its king and the valiant warriors.[Josh 6:2]



Once Joshua takes off his shoes because he is standing on holy ground, we see that suddenly it is the LORD[YHVH] who is talking to him.  Again, this must mean the Prince of the LORD's hosts is the LORD himself.  The LORD tells Joshua he has won the battle before it is even fought because He has given him the victory.


Then he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel saying, 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the LORD of hosts.
[Zech 4:6]

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Just passing thru briefly and this caught my eye........for what it's worth.......I have heard Gabrie speak, and he identified himself to me this way, "I am Gabriel, the archangel of God."

And we have wings (in the Spirit), because I have felt wings distinctly unfold and cover me when in worship of Him, much to my initial shock.  :mshock:

And to throw another wrench into the discussion  :laughing7:, I believe we are angels, though lowered.........as we were one with Him from the foundation of the world, and He said we WOULD BE as the angels (IMO, AGAIN). I think we're man in the flesh, but angels in the Spirit, just as He was lowered a little lower than the angels = into flesh, and we are His body. My  :2c:

Miss you all......Blessings......Card  :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

^ACVJude 1
9 But Michael the arch-agent, when he disputed with the devil, contending about the body of Moses, dared not bring a railing judgment, but said, May Lord rebuke thee.

Michael is scared of satan.

Based on your above conclusion, the the LORD Himself also is scared of Satan:

Zechariah 3:2;
The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?

I don't understand that verse....

^ACVZechariah 3
1 And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the agent of LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to be his adversary.
2 And LORD said to Satan, LORD rebuke thee, O Satan. Yea, LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee. Is this not a brand plucked out of the fire?


There are 3 persons present. Joshua, an angel and satan.
But suddenly a 4th person (LORD) starts talking.
Not only that; The LORD tells satan that the LORD will rebuke him. God is talking is talking in 3rd person?

Perhaps the God is speaking trough the angel?

3 And Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and is standing before the messenger.
4 And he answereth and speaketh unto those standing before him, saying: `Turn aside the filthy garments from off him.' And he saith unto him, `See, I have caused thine iniquity to pass away from off thee, so as to clothe thee with costly apparel.'
5 He also said, `Let them set a pure diadem on his head. And they set the pure diadem on his head, and clothe him with garments. And the messenger of Jehovah is standing,
===> Joshua speaks

6 and the agent of LORD doth protest to Joshua, saying:
7 `Thus said Jehovah of Hosts: If in My ways thou dost walk, And if My charge thou dost keep, Then also thou dost judge My house, And also thou dost keep My courts, And I have given to thee conductors among these standing by.
===> Angel speaks about God

Weird....
Verse 1: A group is defined. God is not included.
Verse 2: God is suddenly present and speak in 3rd person (about Himself)
Verse 3 onward: God is totally ignored. They speak about God as if He's not present.

I would expect the verse to be like: 2 And agent of LORD, said to Satan, LORD rebuke thee, O Satan. Yea, LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee. Is this not a brand plucked out of the fire?

Just now I found an article that seems to explain what's going on in that verse.


Digression 3: God Manifestation
What follows will not be easy to grasp fully at first reading, but the importance of the subject will become more evident as your studies proceed. We include it at this point so that you will leave this Study having fully considered the Bible's basic revelation about God Himself.

The name of God can be carried by anyone through whom He chooses to 'manifest' or reveal Himself. So men and Angels as well as Jesus can carry God's Name. This is a vital principle which opens up so much of the Bible to us. A son especially may carry the name of his father; he has certain similarities with his father, he may have the same first name - but he is not one and the same person as the father. In the same way a representative of a company may speak on behalf of the company; he may telephone someone on business and say, 'Hello, this is Unilever here'; he is not Mr. Unilever, but he carries their name because he is working on their behalf. And so it was with Jesus.

Angels Carrying God's Name
We are told in Exodus 23:20,21 that God told the people of Israel that an Angel would go ahead of them; "My Name is in Him", they were told. The personal name of God is 'Yahweh'. So the Angel carried the name of Yahweh, and could thus be called 'Yahweh', or 'The LORD', in small capitals, as the word 'Yahweh' is translated in the N.I.V. and A.V. We are told in Ex.33:20 that no man can see the face of God and live; but in Ex.33:11 we read that "The LORD (Yahweh) spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend" - i.e. in a relaxed, friendly way. It could not have been the LORD, Yahweh, Himself in person, who spoke to Moses face to face, because no man can see God Himself. It was the Angel who carried God's Name who did so; and so we read of the LORD speaking face to face with Moses when it was actually an Angel who did so (Acts 7:30-33).

There are many other examples of the words 'God' and 'LORD' referring to the Angels as opposed to God Himself. One clear example is Gen.1:26 "And God (the Angels) said, Let us make man in our image".

Men With God's Name
One of the passages which is most helpful in demonstrating all this is John 10:34-36. Here the Jews made the mistake which many so-called 'Christians' do today. They thought that Jesus was saying he was God Himself. Jesus corrected them by saying, "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If He called them 'gods'...how say ye of (me)...'Thou blasphemest' because I said, I am the son of God?'" Jesus is really saying 'In the Old Testament men are called 'gods'; I am only saying I am the Son of God; so why are you getting so upset?' Jesus is actually quoting from Psalm 82, where the judges of Israel were called 'gods'.

As has been shown, the full name of God in Hebrew is 'Yahweh Elohim'- meaning 'I will be revealed in a group of mighty ones'. The true believers are those many mighty ones in a limited sense in this life, and will be so more fully in the Kingdom. This is all beautifully shown by a comparison of Is.64:4 and 1 Cor. 2:9. "Men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside Thee, what He hath prepared for him that waiteth for him". Paul quotes this in 1 Cor.2:9,10: "It is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him. But God hath revealed them unto us by His Spirit". The passage in Is.64 says that no one except God can understand the things He has prepared for the believers; but 1 Cor.2:10 says that those things have been revealed to us; so we are in a sense 'God': not God Himself in person, but a manifestation of God as a result of having been baptized into His name and knowing the Truth.

Jesus And The Name Of God
It is not surprising that Jesus, as the Son of God and His supreme manifestation to men, should also carry God's Name. He could say "I am come in my Father's Name" (John 5:43). Because of his obedience, Jesus ascended to Heaven and God "gave him a Name which is above every name"- the name of Yahweh, of God Himself (Phil.2:9). So this is why we read Jesus saying in Rev.3:12, "I will write upon him (the believer) the name of my God...and I will write upon him my new name". At the judgment Jesus will give us God's Name; we then will fully carry the name of God. He calls this name, "My New Name". Remember, Jesus was giving the book of Revelation some years after his ascension into Heaven and being given God's name, as explained in Phil.2:9. So he can call God's name "My new name"; the name he had recently been given. We can now properly understand Isaiah 9:6, where concerning Jesus we are told, "His Name (note that) shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, the mighty God, the everlasting Father...". This is a prophecy that Jesus would carry all the names of God - that he would be the total manifestation or revelation of God to us. It was in this sense that he was called 'Emmanuel', meaning, 'God is with us', although He personally was not God.

http://biblebasicsonline.com/english/Study01God/D03GodManifestation.html
Yeah I know... two very controverial statements in that article  :winkgrin: