I am not sure if I love God. I mean I don't know how to love him. I feel like I can't communicated with him, so how do I love him? It says he is never leaves us, but I don't feel his love. I send my days depressed. I feel the love of my family is that how you feel god loves.
Hi Universal Sceptic,
I would suggest to try not to base truth on feelings. Just because you don't feel God, does not mean he is not there. He is invisible, and so we cannot see him either. Sight and feelings are physical manifestations. I think what the Lord wants to do is lead us into a faith based solely on trust. Feelings can be part of that, but if they change, it doesn't mean God has changed. He is there regardless of what you feel because he is not dependant on what you feel. He is with you because he promised to be with you, and he cannot lie to you. If he says "I will never leave you or forsake you" you can stand on that, regardless of whatever you feel.
This article might help you understand what the Bible means by "love": http://mercifultruth.com/doesgodhate.html
Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
One thing that I noticed about the struggling apostle Paul is that the will is with him. Same with you. The will is with you. You desire to do good. That is the perfect starting point.
Inner dialogue is where the relationship takes place. You have to learn how God talks to you through your own inner dialogue.
What we put in our mind matters. That is why I said earlier to memorize scriptures that minister to you in particular, and say them to yourself throughout the day. This is called the renewed mind. We have to work on our mind in order to bring it to the place that it is in line with love. Once you got the love going on, you will know that your relationship is good.
.
Hello US. What Seth was saying is absolutely correct. Jesus said to Thomas
"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed"
When I was a young believer, the Lord was merciful to me and allowed me emotional experiences and a certain "nearness to God". This went on for some time, then He seemed to withdraw from me. You see, He wanted me to walk by faith and not feeling. He was "growing me up"
Many times, when the Lord isn't "felt" is when He is most active in us. :winkgrin:
The body of Christ, His church is also here to help you.
Shalom
Jock. :dsunny:
Quote from: Jock on January 23, 2014, 12:55:20 PM
Many times, when the Lord isn't "felt" is when He is most active in us. :winkgrin:
Good point.
Noticing is something. We notice for a reason. What goes through the mind when we notice? A string of complaint? The complaint should be disregarded. It is spiritual practice to shake off the complaint and look for the faith so ready to powerfully show itself.
.
Quote from: Jock on January 23, 2014, 12:55:20 PM
Hello US. What Seth was saying is absolutely correct. Jesus said to Thomas
"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed"
When I was a young believer, the Lord was merciful to me and allowed me emotional experiences and a certain "nearness to God". This went on for some time, then He seemed to withdraw from me. You see, He wanted me to walk by faith and not feeling. He was "growing me up"
Many times, when the Lord isn't "felt" is when He is most active in us. :winkgrin:
The body of Christ, His church is also here to help you.
Shalom
Jock. :dsunny:
:thumbsup: Amen
Amen to the above posts ! :thumbsup:
God is Love , and to know God is to love Him ,
honestly when first coming to UR , I doubted only because I wanted to be faithful; to God and show Him though His Word that I was sincere
well it took God to change my mind over time , to repent is to truly Change your mind and the heart is changed also
when the LORD SAYS AND SPIRIT BEARS WITNESS to it , saying that LOVE /GOD covers the mulititude of sin and the blood of Jesus has covered us all , its a done deal !!
to doubt God will fail just shows our lack of trust in HIS PERFECT WORK !
and we are stil going though the death process and being made ALIVE to Him [In Christ ] the body that is alive to God and full authority being the head we are now attached to and hid in !!
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on January 20, 2014, 06:16:29 PM
I am not sure if I love God. I mean I don't know how to love him. I feel like I can't communicated with him, so how do I love him? It says he is never leaves us, but I don't feel his love. I send my days depressed. I feel the love of my family is that how you feel god loves.
Hi US, you have asked the most important question ever and while the many answers thus far given are not wrong, I might be able to offer something. :girlheart:
First off, contrary to what you have been told. You will FEEL Father when he is present, on very much the same way you can feel the lack of a presence of a loved one when they are absent. You will KNOW the moment Father makes himself known and the moment he leaves or closes the door. These are NOT emotional feelings that some think all feelings are. Call it a Spiritual inner most feeling, or a peace that is there and then not.
I spent years and years loving and believing in a faceless God, only because I did not know how not too. I spent just as many years trying to find Father only to realize that he wasn't lost. I was. Let no one fool you, you can not truly love anyone, until they make themselves known to you, Father included. This is why Jesus made such a point of saying that no one can know Father until he himself presents this one to Father. Also and most importantly, no one can come to Jesus until Farther draws this one to him.
Until this happens, a loving relationship with either cannot exist, because the relationship does not.
But this must not prevent one from Loving both Father and Jesus the best they know how. I will tell you how I did this.I learned to love myself completely and utterly. To see a loving child of Father as I knew he must see me. No way was this easy because for years of was just a dirty sinner. After that I figured that I needed to learn how to love everyone else in order to learn unconditional love. That was easier than learning to love myself. Then I just loved Farther with the same love.
You will know when Farther draws you to Jesus and when Jesus takes you to Father. Your whole life will change, never to be the same. Friends and family will notice also, and will love what they see new in you. You will KNOW that Father is with you always. You will feel what his presence is and you will know when you drift away and you wI'll know His warmth when you turn around lost and reach for him, because He will be there.
Father left me for a month or two a couple of years ago. He just left me on my own. I knew it. I felt it. My world lost life.But this is another story. I am not saying beliving that Father is with you even though you have no indication that He is it isnt, is bad. But it's it's so much better KNOWING & FEELING HIS PRESENCE.
Hang in there US, Trust and Faith will carry you through these dark times. They are not easy.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
When I read what Paul calls Love in Corinthians.
I knew it was impossible for me to truly Love God.
What I can confidently say is God Loves me.
So the only way I can respond to his Love is to receive it.
Receive it as a gift.
Quote from: dajomaco on January 23, 2014, 07:21:23 PM
When I read what Paul calls Love in Corinthians.
I knew it was impossible for me to truly Love God.
What I can confidently say is God Loves me.
So the only way I can respond to his Love is to receive it.
Receive it as a gift.
:dsunny: wonderfully said
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 23, 2014, 07:06:20 PM
First off, contrary to what you have been told. You will FEEL Father when he is present, on very much the same way you can feel the lack of a presence of a loved one when they are absent. You will KNOW the moment Father makes himself known and the moment he leaves or closes the door. These are NOT emotional feelings that some think all feelings are. Call it a Spiritual inner most feeling, or a peace that is there and then not.
Hello Julie,
I grew up in a Pentacostal/Charasmatic environment, and I saw people struggle so much with fear and doubt based on their feelings. Feelings are great, but they are based on our physical bodies. We feel things because we have nerves and chemical reactions in our brains. If one of those chemical reactions goes awry and we are left with feelings that may have nothing to do with God leaving us, then we are essentially in slavery to the sensations of our flesh if we place that assumption. Universal Sceptic's feelings could have nothing to do with God supposedly distant from him.
What if Universal Sceptic's feelings had to do with neuron reactions, lack of nutrition, depression (which I can say confidently that findings have suggested to be a matter of physical imbalances in the brain) or any other manner of stimuli? You can never know why he had those feelings, so I don't think he should have to struggle and fight with his feelings as being the basis for whether his Father is at his side.
To me that viewpoint can lead to alot of self-condemnation.
I don't think that Julie has in mind any type of feeling one has to struggle with. As she said, you will FEEL and KNOW. I think she is describing something that happens to a person without them even trying, since it is from God. Not that feelings are an indication of his presence, it is simply an affirmation in our experience of his presence.
Hi Julie
No offence but the posts that US received earlier from Seth and from myself had the Amen from other witnesses. The sanctity of the "Amen" is paramount and lets us know, by God, that we spoke rightly. If it has the Amen and others disagree, then they should depart from any error on their part and submit to Christ. I have to say that I found your reply to US, quite hard to read.
Blessings
Jock. :Peace2:
Quote from: Jock on January 23, 2014, 11:44:47 PM
Hi Julie
No offence but the posts that US received earlier from Seth and from myself had the Amen from other witnesses. The sanctity of the "Amen" is paramount and lets us know, by God, that we spoke rightly. If it has the Amen and others disagree, then they should depart from any error on their part and submit to Christ. I have to say that I found your reply to US, quite hard to read.
Blessings
Jock. :Peace2:
Amen '' let it be so ''
Rom 11:36
For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. Strong's G281 - amēn
firm
metaph. faithful
verily, amen
at the beginning of a discourse - surely, truly, of a truth
at the end - so it is, so be it, may it be fulfilled. It was a custom, which passed over from the synagogues to the Christian assemblies, that when he who had read or discoursed, had offered up solemn prayer to God, the others responded Amen, and thus made the substance of what was uttered their own.
The word "amen" is a most remarkable word. It was transliterated directly from the Hebrew into the Greek of the New Testament, then into Latin and into English and many other languages, so that it is practically a universal word. It has been called the best known word in human speech. The word is directly related — in fact, almost identical — to the Hebrew word for "believe" (amam), or faithful. Thus, it came to mean "sure" or "truly", an expression of absolute trust and confidence. — HMM
and to U.S. also , when Christ comes to you in WORD AND TRUTH AND SPIRIT
you will know
For me it was when I read matt 5 ! and Luke 6
Knowing how hard it is for the flesh to love your enemies !!!
its the SPIRTUAL man who can overcome evil with good loving your enemies
when you actually begin to do what Jesus asks of us , you know the power of God though Christ is working in you , not only that but realizing Jesus IS doing this very thing for all of us now !! in our thoughts and prayers UniversalSceptic !! :friendstu:
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies,
bless them that curse you,
do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Luk 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great,
and you shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Quote from: gregoryfl on January 23, 2014, 11:39:31 PM
I don't think that Julie has in mind any type of feeling one has to struggle with. As she said, you will FEEL and KNOW. I think she is describing something that happens to a person without them even trying, since it is from God. Not that feelings are an indication of his presence, it is simply an affirmation in our experience of his presence.
And what happens if the person feels and knows, and then goes through a difficult time where their feelings are clouded by any number of factors? What if you can't feel the love, because you had a bad burrito and all you can feel is gassy?
US says "It says he is never leaves us, but I don't feel his love." My point is that it doesn't matter of you don't feel him, he says he will not leave us or forsake us. What does his promise have to do with our feelings? I say nothing. I believe his promise is his promise, and he is not a liar, so even if you are having an emotional struggle, does not mean he has left you.
I think this is the manner in which we are to love God: obey him, feed his sheep, care for his people. You are loving him when you do those things regardless of how you feel. In my opinion, feelings are not stable and not reliable as a way to establish truth. God's word is the best way to know he will never leave us.
Quote from: Seth on January 24, 2014, 12:12:46 AM
Quote from: gregoryfl on January 23, 2014, 11:39:31 PM
I don't think that Julie has in mind any type of feeling one has to struggle with. As she said, you will FEEL and KNOW. I think she is describing something that happens to a person without them even trying, since it is from God. Not that feelings are an indication of his presence, it is simply an affirmation in our experience of his presence.
And what happens if the person feels and knows, and then goes through a difficult time where their feelings are clouded by any number of factors? What if you can't feel the love, because you had a bad burrito and all you can feel is gassy?
US says "It says he is never leaves us, but I don't feel his love." My point is that it doesn't matter of you don't feel him, he says he will not leave us or forsake us. What does his promise have to do with our feelings? I say nothing. I believe his promise is his promise, and he is not a liar, so even if you are having an emotional struggle, does not mean he has left you.
I think this is the manner in which we are to love God: obey him, feed his sheep, care for his people. You are loving him when you do those things regardless of how you feel. In my opinion, feelings are not stable and not reliable as a way to establish truth. God's word is the best way to know he will never leave us.
What you are sharing is true, to me it is not an either/or issue. John echoes your words as well Seth, when he said:
1Jn 3:16 By this we know his love towards us, because he gave up his life for us:. and we also ought to give up our lives for our brethren.
1Jn 3:17 But whoever has worldly possessions, and sees his brother in want, and shuts up his bowels from him, how is the love of Alaha in him?
1Jn 3:18 My children, let us not love one another in words and in tongue, but in acts and in truth.
1Jn 3:19 And by this, we recognize that we are of the truth; and, before he shall come, we make our hearts confident.
1Jn 3:20 But if our heart condemns us, how much greater is Alaha than our heart, and knowing all things?
1Jn 3:21 My beloved, if our heart condemns us not, we have open countenances before Alaha.
In terms of reality, I agree that it does not matter, for it is certainly true regardless of our ever changing feelings. If we go through a difficult time, then I am thankful that we have an inspired set of writings dedicated to that as well, in the Psalms. The struggle was part of the wholeness of what it means to be human. In my culture, we do not separate physical from spiritual, or feelings from knowing, but even in the midst of struggle, of yelling out 'Elohim, where are you?!', that is all part and parcel of a heart that truly loves God, even in the midst of confusion and doubt. The same writer who expressed the famous 'My God, my God, why have you forsake me?' in that process came to write just a few verses later 'For he has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted, Neither has he hidden his face from him; but when he cried to him, he heard.'
When I read Universalskeptic's struggle, that tells me in no uncertain terms just how much he loves God, even if in the midst of depression and, just as with Dawid, that struggle is a powerful means Father can and does use to bring us to a deeper relationship and awareness of him.
In my opinion, I would encourage US to embrace the struggle, not to deny it, if and when it is there, and let it drive him to passionately seek the One who embraces him in and through it all.
Ronen
QuoteThe same writer who expressed the famous 'My God, my God, why have you forsake me?' in that process came to write just a few verses later 'For he has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted, Neither has he hidden his face from him; but when he cried to him, he heard.'
Beautiful...
QuoteIn terms of reality, I agree that it does not matter, for it is certainly true regardless of our ever changing feelings. If we go through a difficult time, then I am thankful that we have an inspired set of writings dedicated to that as well, in the Psalms. The struggle was part of the wholeness of what it means to be human. In my culture, we do not separate physical from spiritual, or feelings from knowing, but even in the midst of struggle, of yelling out 'Elohim, where are you?!', that is all part and parcel of a heart that truly loves God, even in the midst of confusion and doubt. The same writer who expressed the famous 'My God, my God, why have you forsake me?' in that process came to write just a few verses later 'For he has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted, Neither has he hidden his face from him; but when he cried to him, he heard.'
When I read Universalskeptic's struggle, that tells me in no uncertain terms just how much he loves God, even if in the midst of depression and, just as with Dawid, that struggle is a powerful means Father can and does use to bring us to a deeper relationship and awareness of him.
In my opinion, I would encourage US to embrace the struggle, not to deny it, if and when it is there, and let it drive him to passionately seek the One who embraces him in and through it all.
Ronen
Dear Ronen ,
Thanks for sharing !!!
If DAVID would have been sent to a doctor of today they would have placed him on antidepressents , the Lord gave a breakthough when reading the Psalms ! His ups and downs you could see that David saw corruption , as we all do in this life of the days of our flesh
Life and death are in the power of the tongue and we eat those fruits ! that is why we love the fruits of the Spirit Pro 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.
I always wondererd when reading Acts what these verses meant and had to look up corruption and sharing them now again with you all
I know David was a man after Gods own heart and yet he sowed to his flesh by doing many things that brought destruction to him and his family by the choices he made
being in the days of his flesh , he saw his baby die with Bathsheba and saw enemies all about him and saw his son rape his daughter Tamer and saw one son kill the other one and he has no strength or power to change any of it !! yet David was also spirit and that is what God had mercy upon and loved and saves !!
the sure mercies of David , I just loved what you shared and has to speak up and share this with you also , I was on anti depressants when going to the doctor and had a hard time getting off them they made me numb inside
But it was where the Lords Spirit directed me to the Psalms that comforted me into knowing
what all of us suffer though is for Gods glory in the end , He saves us though His Son who never saw corruption Jesus strength is our power to overcome the world , greater is He who is in you than in the world
comparing this to Daniels verse no strength /no power over
Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and
saw corruption:
Act 13:37
But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
Dan 10:8 Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my
comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and
I retained no strengthStrong's G1312 - diaphthora
corruption, destruction
in the NT that destruction which is effected by the decay of the body after death
from Strong's G1311 - diaphtheirō
to change for the worse, to corrupt
of minds, morals
to destroy, ruin
to consume
of bodily vigour and strengthof the worm or moth that eats provisions, clothing, etc.
to destroy, to kill
Strong's H4889 - mashchiyth
ruin, destruction
Quote from: Seth on January 23, 2014, 10:43:59 PM
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 23, 2014, 07:06:20 PM
First off, contrary to what you have been told. You will FEEL Father when he is present, on very much the same way you can feel the lack of a presence of a loved one when they are absent. You will KNOW the moment Father makes himself known and the moment he leaves or closes the door. These are NOT emotional feelings that some think all feelings are. Call it a Spiritual inner most feeling, or a peace that is there and then not.
Hello Julie,
I grew up in a Pentacostal/Charasmatic environment, and I saw people struggle so much with fear and doubt based on their feelings. Feelings are great, but they are based on our physical bodies. We feel things because we have nerves and chemical reactions in our brains. If one of those chemical reactions goes awry and we are left with feelings that may have nothing to do with God leaving us, then we are essentially in slavery to the sensations of our flesh if we place that assumption. Universal Sceptic's feelings could have nothing to do with God supposedly distant from him.
What if Universal Sceptic's feelings had to do with neuron reactions, lack of nutrition, depression (which I can say confidently that findings have suggested to be a matter of physical imbalances in the brain) or any other manner of stimuli? You can never know why he had those feelings, so I don't think he should have to struggle and fight with his feelings as being the basis for whether his Father is at his side.
To me that viewpoint can lead to alot of self-condemnation.
Seth, please know that I gave great consideration to all that I wrote, knowing that I might cause some questions. Father knows that I am not here to deceive or make myself appear special, but rather share all that I was told and all that has happened.
I know all about neurological reactions caused by chemical imbalances in the brain. As I have previously shared on this forum, I suffered the deepest, darkest depression imaginable due to severe brain trauma resulting from an accident. I was given drugs that made me like a zombie. I couldn't sleep more than an hour or two at a time, but my dreams were more real than life and I could not tell either apart. I could not even trust myself. I dreamed of suicide, planned elaborate schemes and lived kind of dangerously for a while; pretty much inviting death. This was before any relationship with Father; however, He knew I was broken and that I didn't ask Him to take me.
That He was responsible for bringing me out of depression is a given. He sent an unlikely Angel, who over time pulled me out of the darkness back into the light. Yes, I know feelings of immense joy, heartbreaking sorrow and a loneliness / sadness that threatens rip very being in two. Yet, I am not an emotional wreck. Even through the worst of it all, no one knew but my angel. Thankfully I have been depression free for many years; if I ever find myself becoming depressed, I now know how to change direction.
Seth, you MUST understand that I know Spiritual Emptiness. The gulf between it and the feelings just described are greater than than that of Black and White. I cannot say this any simpler than this and in truth, it was this simple. It was like, Father switched a switch and everything changed. I KNEW HE WAS THERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Every cell in my body knew it. Yes, I felt HIM, BUT it was SO MUCH MORE than a feeling. :cloud9:
My WHOLE Being changed, my world changed, my love changed but BEST of ALL, my Faith was ratified. Amazing things began to happen almost daily. All of my fear and worry was GONE!!!! Being replaced with a Peaceful Assurance that everything is going to be fine. I was given the most amazing books to read only to DISCOVER that I KNEW everything they taught. I didn't even know I knew until I read the words!!!!! :Chinscratch:
I am talking about a Knowledge that is as much as part of one as ones DNA. Having nothing to do with the mind or understanding. My every prayer had been answered 10 fold!!! It was during this time Father told me: Don't Forget Love.
Not long after, Father turned the light switch off. :sigh: I have no idea why, I might have become too cocky or perhaps I was too slow. Father just gave me a proverbial kick in the pants. Oh this was a different kind of empty, this time I was 100% neutral: neither happy or sad, pleased or displeased, interested or disinterested, loved or unloved. SCARY!!!!!!!!!
I wont bore you with the details. I finally realized that Father had given me a blank canvas. I could figuratively paint myself and my life in as bright and cheerful, loving colors I chose and I did. My Spiritual World is delightful and joyful and you know what???? Having created it, Father came back!!!!!!
Someone mentioned this week that they reasoned that the Spirit and the Physical must need to merge. I agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My physical world is only as bright and cheerful (Arctic freeze outside and I LOVE IT!!!) as my Spiritual. This, I believe is the Lesson I was to learn. Father certainly hasn't told me in as many words. I converse with Father like I am a little girl walking through wonderland, our relationship is that magical. Yet He is teaching me to Shine (grow in Spirit) on my own. To be a beacon of Light to all lost souls.
I really do appreciate your loving post, but the Peace, Love and Joy that transcends every aspect of my life can be "felt" yet it is more than a feeling. It is who I am. It's Julie. :girlheart:
Oh...Father cannot leave me or anyone, but He can make Himself known and he can turn Himself Off. Not sure how, but He does :dsunny:
With ALL my Love, Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: gregoryfl on January 23, 2014, 11:39:31 PM
I don't think that Julie has in mind any type of feeling one has to struggle with. As she said, you will FEEL and KNOW. I think she is describing something that happens to a person without them even trying, since it is from God. Not that feelings are an indication of his presence, it is simply an affirmation in our experience of his presence.
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: Thanks GFL, you have it perfect. Jesus said we must be born again. I was always told that it was something "I could choose" to do, which always sounded so "plastic" to me. How could I choose to be "born again" when Father hadn't even revealed himself to me.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: JulieTangSeth, you MUST understand that I know Spiritual Emptiness. The gulf between it and the feelings just described are greater than than that of Black and White. I cannot say this any simpler than this and in truth, it was this simple. It was like, Father switched a switch and everything changed. I KNEW HE WAS THERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Every cell in my body knew it. Yes, I felt HIM, BUT it was SO MUCH MORE than a feeling.
My WHOLE Being changed, my world changed, my love changed but BEST of ALL, my Faith was ratified. Amazing things began to happen almost daily. All of my fear and worry was GONE!!!! Being replaced with a Peaceful Assurance that everything is going to be fine. I was given the most amazing books to read only to DISCOVER that I KNEW everything they taught. I didn't even know I knew until I read the words!!!!!
Julie, I am not here to discount your personal experiences. However, I don't believe anyone can say that everyone will have the same experience. I have had emotional experiences of my own, and amazing things which seemed to confirm God's works. But they may not have been the same as yours.
Nobody can guarantee that US will have the same experience you will in order to confirm their knowledge. Whatever US feels, he can still stand on the Word which promises that Jesus will not leave him. You are saying that US will know. I am saying he can already know by seeing the promise and having faith on it. He doesn't have to wait for an experience for him to know that Jesus is with him.
Paul had an experience on the way to Damascus. He was knocked off his horse and blinded for three days, and then he could see when something like scales fell from his eyes. I never had that happen to me. I was never physically blinded or saw a white light. But that experience was for Paul. It doesn't have to be MY experience. and my experience doesn't have to be yours, and yours doesn't have to be Universal Sceptic's experience.
Universal Sceptic can know NOW that Jesus is with him by opening his Bible and seeing the words and standing on them by faith. His feelings after that, may change over time, and he may have a strong emotional spiritual experience, but he doesn't have to wait for that to know Christ is with him.
Quote from: Seth on January 24, 2014, 12:12:46 AM
Quote from: gregoryfl on January 23, 2014, 11:39:31 PM
I don't think that Julie has in mind any type of feeling one has to struggle with. As she said, you will FEEL and KNOW. I think she is describing something that happens to a person without them even trying, since it is from God. Not that feelings are an indication of his presence, it is simply an affirmation in our experience of his presence.
And what happens if the person feels and knows, and then goes through a difficult time where their feelings are clouded by any number of factors? What if you can't feel the love, because you had a bad burrito and all you can feel is gassy?
US says "It says he is never leaves us, but I don't feel his love." My point is that it doesn't matter of you don't feel him, he says he will not leave us or forsake us. What does his promise have to do with our feelings? I say nothing. I believe his promise is his promise, and he is not a liar, so even if you are having an emotional struggle, does not mean he has left you.
I think this is the manner in which we are to love God: obey him, feed his sheep, care for his people. You are loving him when you do those things regardless of how you feel. In my opinion, feelings are not stable and not reliable as a way to establish truth. God's word is the best way to know he will never leave us.
Perhaps there is a better word than "feelings". A Blind man knows that he cannot see; a man blind man must SURELY know he is so. I knew. I absolutely KNEW, just as I KNEW the instant Father revealed himself to me. EVERYTHING CHANGED, I BECAME a NEW Person. I felt "It" but I also "Became" it.
I totally understand where you are coming from when you say this Seth: "In my opinion, feelings are not stable and not reliable as a way to establish truth. God's word is the best."
However, I would be lying to Father if I failed to say this: I am here for just ONE PURPOSE and that is too LOVE UNCONDITIONALLY as many people as I can. The More I LOVE the More Father allows me to Love, but I MUST give my Love AWAY first. This is from whence all the Spiritual Fruits grow, through the light of pure unconditional Love. Not my LOVE, BUT :HeartThrob: Father's :HeartThrob:
I love reading the Bible, but I do not need it to further my Love for Father and His Christ. Spiritual Knowledge becomes part of one. Whilst ever I am open to Fathers Love, HIS LOVE will flow through me to whom ever needs it most. Jesus taught us HOW TO LIVE, that was his ministry.
I truly hope you can understand that I am NOT talking about emotions or assumptions or anything other than SPIRIT.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Seth on January 24, 2014, 01:29:57 AM
Quote from: JulieTangSeth, you MUST understand that I know Spiritual Emptiness. The gulf between it and the feelings just described are greater than than that of Black and White. I cannot say this any simpler than this and in truth, it was this simple. It was like, Father switched a switch and everything changed. I KNEW HE WAS THERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Every cell in my body knew it. Yes, I felt HIM, BUT it was SO MUCH MORE than a feeling.
My WHOLE Being changed, my world changed, my love changed but BEST of ALL, my Faith was ratified. Amazing things began to happen almost daily. All of my fear and worry was GONE!!!! Being replaced with a Peaceful Assurance that everything is going to be fine. I was given the most amazing books to read only to DISCOVER that I KNEW everything they taught. I didn't even know I knew until I read the words!!!!!
Julie, I am not here to discount your personal experiences. However, I don't believe anyone can say that everyone will have the same experience. I have had emotional experiences of my own, and amazing things which seemed to confirm God's works. But they may not have been the same as yours.
Nobody can guarantee that US will have the same experience you will in order to confirm their knowledge. Whatever US feels, he can still stand on the Word which promises that Jesus will not leave him. You are saying that US will know. I am saying he can already know by seeing the promise and having faith on it. He doesn't have to wait for an experience for him to know that Jesus is with him.
Seth, I in no way implied that anyone will have the SAME experience as I. Just that HE WOULD KNOW.
In case you missed what I wrote somewhere. Having Faith and an unshakable belief, is not a bad thing. I had that for over 20 yrs before I was given the slightest inkling Father and Jesus was there.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: JulieTangPerhaps there is a better word than "feelings".
Ok, how about "experiences?" Again, I am not intending to discount your experience. Obvisouly, Paul had an experience too. But it was different from yours. And yours is different from mine.
What I get from the OP is that US is wondering if Jesus is with him, why doesn't he feel that? What I am saying is that Jesus made a promise, and it doesn't matter what he feels, the promise is valid. I am not saying that US will not someday have a grand experience, but he doesn't have to suffer doubt or question Christ's presence because that hasn't happened for him yet.
The reason I am stressing this point has to do with what I have seen in churches. Peeople pretending to be happy, because sadness means God has left you, and if God has left you, then obviously something is wrong with you or God or maybe the Bible isn't truthful....
It can lead to what I call Christian superstition. If Universal Sceptic is sad, or struggling with his emotion, Jesus will still be there. God already gave US his love by sending his Son to die for his sin. He is already a partaker of God's love for him.
Quote from: JulieTangSeth, I in no way implied that anyone will have the SAME experience as I. Just that HE WOULD KNOW.
And, Julie, what I am saying is that he can know NOW. He doesn't have to wait to know. He doesn't have to live in a state of suspended animation until something happens....
Quote from: Jock on January 23, 2014, 11:44:47 PM
Hi Julie
No offence but the posts that US received earlier from Seth and from myself had the Amen from other witnesses. The sanctity of the "Amen" is paramount and lets us know, by God, that we spoke rightly. If it has the Amen and others disagree, then they should depart from any error on their part and submit to Christ. I have to say that I found your reply to US, quite hard to read.
Blessings
Jock. :Peace2:
So sorry to hear that Jock. Do you believe I think you spoke wrongly?
Love Julie :girlheart:
Quote from: JulieTangPerhaps there is a better word than "feelings".
Ok, how about "experiences?" Again, I am not intending to discount your experience. Obvisouly, Paul had an experience too. But it was different from yours. And yours is different from mine.
What I get from the OP is that US is wondering if Jesus is with him, why doesn't he feel that? What I am saying is that Jesus made a promise, and it doesn't matter what he feels, the promise is valid. I am not saying that US will not someday have a grand experience, but he doesn't have to suffer doubt or question Christ's presence because that hasn't happened for him yet.
The reason I am stressing this point has to do with what I have seen in churches. People pretending to be happy, because sadness means God has left you, and if God has left you, then obviously something is wrong with you or God or maybe the Bible isn't truthful....
It can lead to what I call Christian superstition. If Universal Sceptic is sad, or struggling with his emotion, Jesus will still be there. Jesus already gave US his love by sending his Son to die for his sin. He is already a partaker of God's love for him.
:dontknow: what is 'OP? I see it is used but I am clueless.....'
All what you say is true, so very true. Life can be very Cruel. I believe I was born with a good portion of Faith but I was a blind as the blindest bat. I believe Life before Christ is revealed SPIRITUALLY is the greatest test of FAITH. It wasn't until Father was good and ready, before I could see and it was NOTHING that I can see that I did :dontknow:
Quote from: JulieTangSeth, I in no way implied that anyone will have the SAME experience as I. Just that HE WOULD KNOW.
And, Julie, what I am saying is that he can know NOW. He doesn't have to wait to know.
And I am saying Seth, that it is a different knowledge. The first is natural, the latter, Spiritual as one becomes a new person and KNOWS it. :dsunny:
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
I think OP means "original post." If not then I have been using it wrong.
Quote from: JulieTangAnd I am saying Seth, that it is a different knowledge. The first is natural, the latter, Spiritual as one becomes a new person and KNOWS it.
I guess, then, we have different ideas of knowledge. What you might call "natural" I would call "foundational." What I am saying is that US can have the foundational knowledge now, and if there are verifications through experiences, fine, but if not, that's also fine. Having the foundational trust that Christ is with him will protect him from second guessing his place with God because he hasn't had an experience.
:friendstu: Foundational - Sounds perfect, because surely it is a perfect base that Christ himself laid.
Love it!!!! :HeartThrob:
Love Julie :girlheart:
For me, in my relationship with God, I don't really feel much. But somehow, things just happen. I do (or don't do) a certain thing. And after those instances, I am very aware that had it not been for my faith and love for God, I would have done differently. Instead of feeling "close" to God (in a way like I feel with human relationships), I feel like He is sending signals to me from afar that influence my life.
I sense that this kind of relationship does not represent the highest spiritual maturity. I don't want to get enthusiastic about it in a way that would cause me to cling to it if God wants me to grow beyond it. But for the time being, I feel that it is the way it is, and I'm content with it.
Samuel
what?Iv'e never heard about any two amens,then drop your'e veiw it's settled.
where did this come from,Jock.?I've never heard ofsuch a thing.
I have been thinking about this thread for a few hours now (It is 10:45 pm where I am and I am running out of time) and it actually is a very important question. However, as I do not have enough time to share what is on my heart and mind right now, I would like to make a couple of brief comments now an perhaps tomorrow or Saturday say a little more.
First of all, I understand all responses to Universal skeptic's predicament. I even understand all responses to other people's responses. However, I do not need to agree or disagree with anyone's position/opinion, nor am I saying I have a problem with anyone agreeing or disagreeing with anyone's position/opinion either.
So I will get to my point. I understand what Julie was getting at. Not that her experience is mine, as what I have said before on this forum is that we all have our own path to walk that is ours alone. But what she was/is saying is the truth. She has had a mystical experience with God and it has forever altered her. It is hard to convey what one has experienced without being misunderstood. I have had multiple mystical experiences - things like having understanding of a scripture or something about God and then reading it later, a witness rising literally in my heart/chest, knowing God is there, etc. In fact, sometimes I cannot take it it can be overwhelming. Even my coming to understand universal reconciliation was a revelation!
I have read enough of Julie's responses to know that God is with her. She has a particular way of speaking that is interesting, but nothing she says to my observation is contrary to scripture or God or anything.
I think we come alongside each other and help people persevere. The lesson of Job is not that he was not mad, but that he persisted.
Peace to all,
William
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 24, 2014, 03:00:58 AM
:friendstu: Foundational - Sounds perfect, because surely it is a perfect base that Christ himself laid.
Love it!!!! :HeartThrob:
Love Julie :girlheart:
:thumbsup:
Julie, you said,
First off, contrary to what you have been told. You will FEEL Father when he is present. So, does US look for a feeling then? I told him that the Lord will "seem" to depart after a while to draw the believer into Him.
You seem to be saying something else??
I do love you Julie and I don't want you to be upset but I couldn't sit on this one.
Love in Christ
Jock .
Blimey, this thread grew pretty quickly!
RoseRed. I was just in BLB and copied the same thing you did about the Amen. Oh well. In my past affiliations, I have seen the Amen banded about very casually and wantonly. The same was true with words like "brother" and "sister" and "signs, miracles and wonders" and "revival" among others.
I went through a time of questioning things. (This was done in a seeking way before God and He was happy to let me do this) Like "why are people saying "Amen" all the time? Who is my brother? Who is my sister? Is the revival going to be Pentecostal, Baptist, Catholic, Brethren, on and on ad infinitum.
I came to understand that God is concerned with a witness. The scriptures are a witness, the Holy Spirit is a witness, the body of Christ is a witness. Those things in any combination lets me know it is truth, it is faithful, it is the Amen and I can speak it. God is not slow in giving me acknowledgement "in the Spirit" that I can stand on that.
Now, I have opinions too but I find that opinions are very often from the human intellect just even "theology" can be just head knowledge. I am learning as I go, to disregard speculation and recognise the Amen. These things are all in the Spirit, not a head thing. I make lots of mistakes though but my brethren on these boards are merciful and that is projecting the love of God :gimmefive:
Rosered and Shiela, this is my conviction about those things.
Shalom
Jock. :Peace2:
Quote from: Seth on January 23, 2014, 10:43:59 PM
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 23, 2014, 07:06:20 PM
First off, contrary to what you have been told. You will FEEL Father when he is present, on very much the same way you can feel the lack of a presence of a loved one when they are absent. You will KNOW the moment Father makes himself known and the moment he leaves or closes the door. These are NOT emotional feelings that some think all feelings are. Call it a Spiritual inner most feeling, or a peace that is there and then not.
Hello Julie,
I grew up in a Pentacostal/Charasmatic environment, and I saw people struggle so much with fear and doubt based on their feelings. Feelings are great, but they are based on our physical bodies. We feel things because we have nerves and chemical reactions in our brains. If one of those chemical reactions goes awry and we are left with feelings that may have nothing to do with God leaving us, then we are essentially in slavery to the sensations of our flesh if we place that assumption. Universal Sceptic's feelings could have nothing to do with God supposedly distant from him.
What if Universal Sceptic's feelings had to do with neuron reactions, lack of nutrition, depression (which I can say confidently that findings have suggested to be a matter of physical imbalances in the brain) or any other manner of stimuli? You can never know why he had those feelings, so I don't think he should have to struggle and fight with his feelings as being the basis for whether his Father is at his side.
To me that viewpoint can lead to alot of self-condemnation.
Good post.
Quote from: Jock on January 24, 2014, 10:15:49 AM
Julie, you said,
First off, contrary to what you have been told. You will FEEL Father when he is present. So, does US look for a feeling then? I told him that the Lord will "seem" to depart after a while to draw the believer into Him.
You seem to be saying something else??
I do love you Julie and I don't want you to be upset but I couldn't sit on this one.
Love in Christ
Jock .
Some times there are simply no words to describe what is on one's heart.
Perhaps a better word than feel could have been used. It's like the age old question: "mom how will I know I am in love for real?" Mom says: "You will know" with that knowing comes feelings that are different from puppy love of lust.
To me, everything changed. I could feel a deep love, warmth, a light even inside my very being. Not my mind.
Perhaps I have a fundamental different view regarding feelings. For example, a singer may be perfect in everyway, but if she does not "connect" with the audience with FEELINGS of conviction, the song will be hollow. My dad always told me when I learned to drive. To NOT drive the car, but guide it instead. He said that the car is "talking" to me all the time, not through words so that I might hear, but in subtle ways that I must learn to feel.I think on that as one of the greatest lessons my dad ever gave me. Such "feelings" veto the mind and that is a good thing.
A good musician feels the music, as does an artist. US will KNOW when Father enters his life and when he has the gifted eyes to see and ears to hear, the inner most spiritual feelings will surpass all emotions. Jesus, said: let those who can hear, hear. He wasn't talking about ears.
No offence taken or implied.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
the Shepherd may relate to the flock as a whole...and prod the flock as a whole..and the whole
flock is indeed the Shepherds. But then...the Shepherd may relate individually with any
given sheep...and at that time..the sheep knows that shepherd is relating to it on a
personal level..
also,I have found this true with the scriptures...we,as His flock have these as a
sheepfold[enclosure] for us all. and then..when He places this word in our hearts individually
there is a difference..[personally=call out His sheep individually by name]
there is a washing with His word..exteriorly...and then He implants individually[personally]
His word in us..... I call it 'quickening" It is like His word/blood/life covers us all/flock
but then at some point..that blood/covering/life that covers us..becomes His blood/life
in us...and 'quickens' springs up" from within.[individually] and out of our belly[inner] it flws.
It is alwaays up to the shepherd to know the appearance of His flock...as a whole and
individually. so, I would say to such ones..know you are inside His word[covered]..and the
time will come when youwill know His word is also inside you.............
Seth brought up good points and so did Julie.
God judges between a sheep and a sheep..and no sheep of the Lord's should have
to drink muddied up water..or be shoved to the side..or be made to feel 'lacking" in any way
or secound rate. It is a growth thing..and God who grows it.. He certainly knows how
to discipline any that should make such ones feel of no-account..or less then precious
to the Lord. the Shepherds crook will certainly find such 'unruly' ones as these.
and ps Julie...I do not think it was your intent to make any who had not the expierence yet
to feel 'less'. and Seth,yes, there has been times where ssuch who had not expierenced
it yet,were made to feel 'less'.
valid points valid concerns both imo
All is well Bro Jock ,
I just say amen when in agreement with the Witness of the Holy Spirit moving on the forum when it quickens somthing in me
call me old school , but I believe our hearts are in the right place when we agree and also define with the details what the Lord asks of us , sharing and caring is never a bad thing among Gods children , its letting the HOLY SPIRIT flow freely and not hindered by our own flesh
quenching the Spirit
I mainly use Amen when I read this scripture Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God
its acknowledging '' the AMEN '' Which is Jesus Christ our faithful witness as let it be so and continue that we are in the sign of agreement with one another as well as in agreement with HIM !!! :dsunny:
Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
Rev 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Rosered, thank you for your post and your kind heart.
Blessings
Jock.
Shiela
I take it that you are correcting me. Your post seemed to be aimed my way? I will leave my heart open to be corrected if it is necessary.
You sounded pretty angry, sorry bout that.
Jock. :sigh:
Quote from: sheila on January 24, 2014, 05:09:43 PM
and ps Julie...I do not think it was your intent to make any who had not the expierence yet
to feel 'less'. and Seth,yes, there has been times where ssuch who had not expierenced
it yet,were made to feel 'less'.
valid points valid concerns both imo
Dear Sheila how gracious you are. If any thing I feel less than any other person and what I am about will hopefully not be taken the wrong way. But, I would gladly give anyone what Father has given me. Not that I need feel greater, but I would give everyone the love and beauty that is now my life. I am no one special, least of all on my own eyes.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Seer After Truth
Thank you William :friendstu:
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Hi Julie
its a shame that anyone feels picked on or less
Not what any of us are trying to do
I do not understand how this happens so often those misunderstandings , but know
we are all to love one another and and share what God gives though His grace and glorify HIM
I love this and will place it as a reminder , to myself as well as to others
I never intended to choose sides ok , not my practice ,
just thought the Amen was needing more clarity as Jock has pointed out as a good thing I believe , not to harm but to Bless
and Let the HOLY SPIRIT FLOW TODAY peace to those whom love His peace :dsunny:
And so, dear brothers and sisters, I plead with you to give your bodies to God because of all he has done for you. Let them be a living and holy sacrifice—the kind he will find acceptable. This is truly the way to worship him. ]
Rom 12:2 Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God's will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect.
Rom 12:3 Because of the privilege and authority God has given me, I give each of you this warning: Don't think you are better than you really are.
Be honest in your evaluation of yourselves, measuring yourselves by the faith God has given us.
Rom 12:4 Just as our bodies have many parts and each part has a special function,
Rom 12:5 so it is with Christ's body. We are many parts of one body, and we all belong to each other.
Rom 12:6 In his grace, God has given us different gifts for doing certain things well. So if God has given you the ability to prophesy, speak out with as much faith as God has given you.
Rom 12:7 If your gift is serving others, serve them well. If you are a teacher, teach well.
Rom 12:8 If your gift is to encourage others, be encouraging. If it is giving, give generously. If God has given you leadership ability, take the responsibility seriously. And if you have a gift for showing kindness to others, do it gladly.
Rom 12:9 Don't just pretend to love others. Really love them. Hate what is wrong. Hold tightly to what is good.
Rom 12:10 Love each other with genuine affection, and take delight in honoring each other.
Rom 12:11 Never be lazy, but work hard and serve the Lord enthusiastically. [fn]
Rom 12:12 Rejoice in our confident hope. Be patient in trouble, and keep on praying.
Rom 12:13 When God's people are in need, be ready to help them. Always be eager to practice hospitality.
Rom 12:14 Bless those who persecute you. Don't curse them; pray that God will bless them.
Rom 12:15 Be happy with those who are happy, and weep with those who weep.
Rom 12:16 Live in harmony with each other. Don't be too proud to enjoy the company of ordinary people. And don't think you know it all!
Rom 12:17 Never pay back evil with more evil. Do things in such a way that everyone can see you are honorable.
Rom 12:18 Do all that you can to live in peace with everyone.
No Jock,I'm not angry with you. So sorry if you thought so. I had never heard of 'the snctity' of the
amen etc ever! I do however disagree. On a discussion
board we will have people that will often times find merit in seemingly different points of veiw.
or that if two people say 'amen' end of discussion. while I don't think it is a good thing to
endlessly expound/argue different veiwpoints....I think a veiw needs to be thoroughly expressed.
I have no intention of abiding by that 'rule' if two people say 'amen' to someones post..
and I feel I have something to add,or to be considered,I will. Not to be contentious......
but the Holy spirit in me shall not be bound by any such rule/regulation.
what? two people say 'amen' and the rest shut up and sit down..that's the end of the discussion?
sometimes people have things to say that were not considered..and need to be taken into
account also.
He said to His disciples...'I HAVE MANY THINGS YET TO SAY TO YOU"
actually Jock...I feel I have amened Seth and Julie both. within me resounds truth in both
being verified. I would be a liar if I said. or.if I tesified otherwise.
love to you,brother :friendstu:
The Lord said..'when I found you people it was like finding grapes in the desert...and I said,
'do not destroy! there is a blessing in it!"
That's cool Shiela. I'm not really saying that people should sit down and shut up. I'm only saying that Christ (the Amen) is the truth and the standard.
Blessings
PS Glad you're not mad at me :banana:
:HeartThrob: RoseRed, thank you. The words from Paulthat you posted just simply sang to my heart, they we do beautiful.
I have often thought of myself as a sole maple leaf bobbing with the current down a stream. Only to discover, the stream is tranquil and breathtaking in it's splendor and the current, gentle on it's flow. Now I just wish to share everything. I never knew the meaning of Heaven on Earth, yet like most, I have surely did my time in Hell.
For all the words we have, how does one share their heart in words? The fruits of the Spirit are thankfully not words.
Father he's given me a strong will and a soft heart. My will is still a little reckless :doh:
Love Julie :girlheart:
Quote from: Jock on January 24, 2014, 07:40:58 PM
That's cool Shiela. I'm not really saying that people should sit down and shut up. I'm only saying that Christ (the Amen) is the truth and the standard.
Blessings
PS Glad you're not mad at me :banana:
Are you at me? The silence is deafening :sigh:
I truly am so sorry for saying something that you could not let rest.
Please forgive me :girlheart:
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
The way I see things can be understood through a hypothetical:
Supposing my daughter and I were in a pitch black room and she couldn't see me and she was scared. I could tell her with my voice that I am here and will not leave her or let her get hurt. If she trusts me, she can have confidence in that. That voice could mean the word of God, or it could be a feeling, or it could be an audible voice. But one thing I think we could all agree on, is the the written word counts as God's voice in a foundational way. Even if someone hasn't heard an audible voice or felt anything, or had a specific validating experience, the voice is also still present in the Word and can be "heard" and trusted in the darkness.
That's how I resolve the understanding between Julie and I, which I don't take to really be a disagreement after all.
good! wer'e 'cool" :thumbsup: and a question? do I give off wrong vibes of 'anger'..
because you are not the first person to think I was mad at them,Jock?
coz if I am..I want to deal with it.
I have to leave for an appointment in a few minutes...and will read when I get back
but really is it cause I make it short and to the point? and am perceived as in 'people's face'
over a matter..that makes me come across that way?
ps
and Jock..ifyou use two amens as a rule to discount any other as coming from the Lord,you
could miss out on a blessing that could be yours...that may come in the form of a double amen
to two post ers!!!
I'll be eager to have your'e input,when I get back..along with helpful hint's to not come
across that way! :laugh: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 24, 2014, 07:56:45 PM
:HeartThrob: RoseRed, thank you. The words from Paulthat you posted just simply sang to my heart, they we do beautiful.
I have often thought of myself as a sole maple leaf bobbing with the current down a stream. Only to discover, the stream is tranquil and breathtaking in it's splendor and the current, gentle on it's flow. Now I just wish to share everything. I never knew the meaning of Heaven on Earth, yet like most, I have surely did my time in Hell.
For all the words we have, how does one share their heart in words? The fruits of the Spirit are thankfully not words.
Father he's given me a strong will and a soft heart. My will is still a little reckless :doh:
Love Julie :girlheart:
That is great Julie those scripts blessed in a timely manner ! Glad I posted and was not certain I should post any more :sigh:
I certainly understand the hell on earth as well and Heavens gain within, as God sees fit to give the increase , and can relate
and could not agree more that the fruits of the Spirit are not mere words , but Life to the believer !! God bless your heart !!
Hi Sheila
No worries, sister. There are lots of things I don't understand but I find that when the Spirit speaks to me (or another) I am immediately given a verse of scripture to validate what I heard. That's what I mean, that's the Amen! Sometimes I get it wrong and can be corrected, then "I" shut up and sit down :laugh: Just kidding! I guess what I mean is that we can't labour against the Truth.
I'm off to bed now, getting to be that time
Jock
BTW, I see no wrong in you :HeartThrob:
Hi Julie
How could I be angry or hurt by you? You have a lovely heart and actually, I know the sort of experiences you mean, had em myself. I think I misunderstood what you were trying to get across. I am always glad to read posts from your lovely heart :dsunny:
Good night sweet sister
Shalom
Jock.
Quote from: Seth on January 24, 2014, 08:02:54 PM
The way I see things can be understood through a hypothetical:
Supposing my daughter and I were in a pitch black room and she couldn't see me and she was scared. I could tell her with my voice that I am here and will not leave her or let her get hurt. If she trusts me, she can have confidence in that. That voice could mean the word of God, or it could be a feeling, or it could be an audible voice. But one thing I think we could all agree on, is the the written word counts as God's voice in a foundational way. Even if someone hasn't heard an audible voice or felt anything, or had a specific validating experience, the voice is also still present in the Word and can be "heard" and trusted in the darkness.
That's how I resolve the understanding between Julie and I, which I don't take to really be a disagreement after all.
Dear Seth, I like your analogy, but as usual I see things a little differently. :girlheart:
You wrote: "But one thing I think we could all agree on, is the the written word counts as God's voice in a foundational way"
I do wish it had for me. I was just 5 when I discovered that the God whom I knew molded my heart,, was not the God I was told of in the bible. To the young girl I was, the bible was like a horror story. I was told I had no faith and I believed them, for the faith I had was nothing like theirs. I spent years trying to reconcile the Bible. The book of Revelation was placed in the "too hard" basket. Sure, I found snippets that resonated, but even after growing up, being told constantly that I was taking everything out of context; I didn't lean on my understanding too much.
If I had a foundation it was the faith that Father had gifted me. I always reasoned that, to be true to Father, I had to be true to myself. I just could not sell myself out and buy into the things I was told I HAD to believe.
My most treasured Scripture was always Psalm 23
So, with all of this, I am thinking that Fathers Word is great to shore up what is being built on Jesus's foundation that he laid. I can only imagine how many of Jesus's foundations have been torn down by the church and replaced with horrendous lies. :sigh:
I will be totally honest, the Bible had never brought me much comfort until Father revealed himself to me. Only then did the Bible become s cohesive whole. It was just a jumbled jigsaw puzzle before. :sigh:
Just sharing with much Love :HeartThrob:
Julie
Quote from: JulieTangI will be totally honest, the Bible had never brought me much comfort until Father revealed himself to me. Only then did the Bible become s cohesive whole. It was just a jumbled jigsaw puzzle before. :sigh:
That's really the thing. While I believe that the written word is
part of the voice of God, it doesn't mean his voice is understood. I didn't hear the voice either, in that I didn't understand it, and it was a big jumbled jigsaw puzzle to me as well. We must "hear," and also understand what we "hear."
I don't believe that God is a physical being, and so when I say "voice," I don't mean like with vocal cords. The way I see the written word is that it is part of the Trumpet, the call out, the voice, which when understood can give great comfort and trust to the hearer. I do believe that the Spirit must give us guidance to understand his own words, but once understood, they can be trusted.
When we open the Bible and see the words "I will never leave you or forsake you" and we believe those words to be true, they are as good as hearing them audibly, or from another kind of experience. They are just as truthful, and so if Universal Sceptic sees those words, and the Spirit has given understanding, he has heard God's word on this matter. He can have confidence in the truth of those words and stand strong on them.
Quote from: Jock on January 24, 2014, 08:50:26 PM
Hi Julie
How could I be angry or hurt by you? You have a lovely heart and actually, I know the sort of experiences you mean, had em myself. I think I misunderstood what you were trying to get across. I am always glad to read posts from your lovely heart :dsunny:
Good night sweet sister
Shalom
Jock.
Thanks Jock :friendstu:
I didn't want to burn yet another bridge......
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Seth on January 24, 2014, 09:06:16 PM
Quote from: JulieTangI will be totally honest, the Bible had never brought me much comfort until Father revealed himself to me. Only then did the Bible become s cohesive whole. It was just a jumbled jigsaw puzzle before. :sigh:
That's really the thing. While I believe that the written word is part of the voice of God, it doesn't mean his voice is understood. I didn't hear the voice either, in that I didn't understand it, and it was a big jumbled jigsaw puzzle to me as well. We must "hear," and also understand what we "hear."
I don't believe that God is a physical being, and so when I say "voice," I don't mean like with vocal cords. The way I see the written word is that it is part of the Trumpet, the call out, the voice, which when understood can give great comfort and trust to the hearer. I do believe that the Spirit must give us guidance to understand his own words, but once understood, they can be trusted.
When we open the Bible and see the words "I will never leave you or forsake you" and we believe those words to be true, they are as good as hearing them audibly, or from another kind of experience. They are just as truthful, and so if Universal Sceptic sees those words, and the Spirit has given understanding, he has heard God's word on this matter. He can have confidence in the truth of those words and stand strong on them.
This is cool because we seem to be on the same page. :gimmefive:
I too believe that much of the Bible requires a higher interpretation than the words alone convey. However, with this being said. There are likely just as many that do not, like the one you quoted. I would Psalm 23 in there too. These are important as are others like Jesus's two commandments and Paul saying: This is a faithful and true saying worthy of all acceptance that Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners, whom I am the greatest.
Where the church has generally messed up is that they have separated themselves from the persona of Jesus, who was a servant of the down trodden. I truly enjoy reading Paul, but have read several books devoted only to the teachings of Jesus. His message was so simple yet so profound at the same time. He always turned the status quo upside down; like the time the learned caught a woman messing around (note: they blamed the woman but I bet the man started it (Julie's conjecture)) Well, there law permitted the stoning of the woman, yet Jesus said just a few words and they walked away: "Let he has not sinned, throw the first stone." He then told the woman that he did not condemn her either.
There was no doctrine in Jesus's teaching and I truly feel much of His simple truth of Loving Father and all others as ourself was and is still KEY in Father opening the Spiritual gates. This message has largely been replaced with one of fear, of death and eternal punishment. As crazy as this sounds, I have NO spiritual concern for anything that is not Love. I just cannot even go there. Jesus told us that Father's Kingdom was within and that all the searching "out-there" would be to no-avail.
I know this was my problem for all those years. Father could never be "in" me!!!! Really!!!! And I never even took a quick look.
We are all a work in progress and it is good to share our successes and our failures. :cloud9:
Kind of got side tracked didn't I :Chinscratch:
Love Julie :girlheart: