What do you expect God to do for us after we die?

[orlando02]

Supposedly the fist simple lifeforms existed about 3 billion years ago and mammals about 200 million years ago... The mind does boggle a bit at such numbers. I'd be interested to hear more about the theory you refer to that you don't want to discuss - makes it hard to think about whether it's helpful to me or not! It seems like a lot to take on faith to believe the earth is only a few thousand years old when the expert geologists etc say it's not.

[orlando02]

Thanks Lefein, I will check out your links

[WhiteWings]

Supposedly the fist simple lifeforms existed about 3 billion years ago and mammals about 200 million years ago... The mind does boggle a bit at such numbers. I'd be interested to hear more about the theory you refer to that you don't want to discuss - makes it hard to think about whether it's helpful to me or not! It seems like a lot to take on faith to believe the earth is only a few thousand years old when the expert geologists etc say it's not.

Not all believe in a 6000 year old earth. Even Jews living centuries ago believed in a earth of unknown age and mankind being 6000 years old.
I you take a secular and Biblical time table you will see quite a few things match. First Argiculture. First cities. Tubal Cains bronze age etc.
Personally I be believe in a 14.7 billion year universe. But not in Darwinian evolution. Missing links have never been found. What's found is that new species suddenly existed. Examining certain mutations in DNA shows a quite Biblical age for mankind.....
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/the_vatican_claims_darwins_theory_evolution_is_compatible_christianity_4854.msg51383.html#msg51383
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/creation_sciencefaith_and_part_genesis_merged_8616.msg103896.html#msg103896

:lazy: :snor:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi again, Orlando02  :cloud9:

Now to address the rest of your OP:

often think Christianity comes down to "your soul going to heaven when you die", but, as British bishop and theologian NT Wright has pointed out, this is not really what the early Christians seemed to be most interested in, they were expecting Jesus to come back, raise the dead into new immortal bodies and establish a new Kingdom that would be literally a kind of Heaven on Earth.

Actually, the WORD says NOTHING about "going to Heaven"... but does say a few  things about "Heaven coming to earth"  :laughing7:

Paul says in some passages that the dead are "sleeping" before the Second Coming, even though in one section he says he is longing to be gone and to be with Christ, so it seems people's existence in heaven is more than just what we think of as sleeping

Where does the WORD say that... "people have an existence in Heaven"?  :dontknow:

Wright says it is an intermediate state that is restful but is "like" being asleep compared to the vital existence we will have in new glorious bodies in the Kingdom.

Upon what does "Wright" found this (SPECULATION)?  If the WORD is silent about something/anything, where does anyone ("Wright" for instance), get the audacity to ADD ones OWN WORDS, to that SILENCE?  :sigh:

As I see it, ...wherever WRIGHT speaks, and the WORD  is silent, ...ah, WRIGHT is, ah, .......wrong.  :pointlaugh:

To me though it seems like Jesus has been gone a long time and I find it really stretches my ability to believe, to think this is really going to happen. Do you?

It was PROPHESIED long ago, that some would get weary and begin to question the coming of CHRIST  -- 2 Pet 3:3-4 -- Let us not be weary... but faithful (if I have misunderstood what you have said here, I certainly apologize ahead of time!   :blush: 

To wait upon YHVH  is an exercise in LOVING and FAITHFUL, ...PATIENCE...  :winkgrin:

If not, I suppose eternal life must mean going to a heaven as a spirit, whatever that is like? Would you see it as praising God all day, or do you think, like for example Spiritualists say, that there are many levels of the afterlife and we go on learning and progressing there?

FIRST --- How can anyone SPECULATE as to the activities or experience of "Heaven"?

SECOND --- I realize you mean no harm in mentioning "afterlife"... however, it is an UNBIBLICAL suggestion... and has no real position nor pertinence within a Biblical discussion.

A better suggestion and one which is IN the WORD, ...is that we shall RETURN to where our journey, ...BEGAN --> Luke 15:13-20 :nod:

willieH  :cloud9:

[orlando02]

Willie, in this passage, for example, it sounds like Paul think s after he dies he will go to Heaven and be with Jesus:
Philippians 1

21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

    22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labour for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know!

    23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;

    24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

I agree NT Wright (bishop of Durham in the UK and a noted theologian) is speculating when he makes statements about what it is like for the dead in heaven, but in several places Paul describes the dead as "sleeping" but then eg. you have the passage above where he expects to be enjoying being with Jesus, so it seems more than just sleeping, unconscious, awaiting resurrection.

[orlando02]

. Missing links have never been found. What's found is that new species suddenly existed.

I don't know the exact figure of how many dead animals end up as fossils, but it a very rare phenomenon, so that could be one reason (say it's one in a million, then on top of that an archaeologist has to dig in just the right place to find it); also  evolutionists draw up family trees of animals, and they don't suggest, eg. you had a sheep and one of its offspring was suddenly a half-sheep/half-pig or something; the common ancestor of the sheep and pig would have been probably, according to the theory, have been 100 million years earlier and looked like a shrew. So the changes are small and gradual. Also, there are some examples of transitional forms, like the archaeoperix, that's a mixture of a reptile and a bird.

[WhiteWings]

3 billion year old organisms have been found but transitional forms.
Random mutations are just that; random. They don't move in a certain direction.
"Survival of the fittest" Transitional forms are unfit.

http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/Encyclopedia/20hist09.htm

So the changes are small and gradual

Lets assume evolution from a cow into a elephant takes 1 billion mutations. Also lets assume the cow is extinct since millions of years. Then there are a billion more transitional forms that just the start (cow) and end (elephant)
Also because mutations are random some cows mutated into lions and  giraffes. Obviously lots of mutation branches are unsuccesful and exict at say mutation 500 miljon.
So when that cow mutated in say 5 animals that live right now it means for every orginial cow fossile there should be found 5 billion transition fossiles.
I agree with you "archaeologist has to dig in just the right place to find it)" so I don't expect 5 billion transitional forms.
What we have right now is many end-forms are a very rare transitional form. And (almost) all have been proven fake. That's extremely odd because the chance to file transtional fossiles is immensely bigger than the original forms.
:2c:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi orlando02...  :cloud9:

[Mod edit]

Willie, in this passage, for example, it sounds like Paul think s after he dies he will go to Heaven and be with Jesus:
Philippians 1

21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labour for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know!

23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;

24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

Please know that I mean no negativity toward you,  but... this does not say this at all as I see it...

PAUL referred to those "ASLEEP" -- 1 Cor 15:18 -- in CHRIST  as well as "DEAD" in CHRIST -- 1 Thess 4:16 -- whattupwidat?

Are believers "in Heaven" having a "SIESTA" -- :lazy: -- or is there a "DIVINE graveyard" ...up there?  :grave: 

If everyone who "believes" ...never dies... How can there be those who are "ASLEEP" or "DEAD"?

No offense to anyone, but ..."Christians" are some of the most delusional people in the world.  They think themselves EXEMPT from the things of this life, and that others are NOT...  They percieve THEMSELVES a PRIZE which God covets... and others are, well... FIREWOOD!  :pitiful: 

Most "Christians" are not that ("Christians") at all, thinking themselves MORE than their Savior... for CHRIST led the way, and most, often do not BELIEVE what He said (the JUDGMENT is NOW, that He did and said NOTHING of Himself, that there is only ONE GOD, ect.) ... They percieve that He DID one thing they seem to think they are excluded from... which is DIE...  How bassackwards is this?   :mshock:

Are we GREATER than He?  That HE should suffer DEATH and WE shall NEVER DIE?  Well, FYI...  the GRAVEYARD is FULL of these delusionals, waiting for more... and not ONE of them has experienced another moment since they entered that graveyard... for they KNOW not ANY ...THING...

Thinking themselves EXEMPT from DEATH... when it is NEEDED to escape this SINFUL life in which we are DROWNING in the WRATH of GOD, which comes against our SINFULNESS and UNGODLINESS -- Rom 1:18

Thinking GOD a master TORTURER, instead of LOVE,  ...teaching others to FEAR Him when HE is LOVE and LOVE is in the business of CASTING OUT FEAR -- 1 John 4:18

Futhermore proposing to the WORLD (He so LOVES, btw) of His ALL POWERFUL WRATH against them, creating of our KIND and LOVING Father, ...the BIGGEST BULLY of ALL TIME, instead of teaching the GOOD NEWS of the GREATEST LOVER of ALL TIME... 

Thinking GOD holds one "lump of dirt" above and better than another... thinking GOD relieves them of all their blasphemies and mistreatments of others and accountability of their doings, ...by a (yet another UNBIBLICAL TEACHING) -- "SINNERS PRAYER"... :mnah:

Death is sleep... TIME ceases within that sleep... the next awareness for EACH ONE that DIES, is CHRIST... Some will rise in POWER for they have believed, and their SIN shall be covered in the CLOTHING of that belief -- Rev 3:18 -- and MOST shall rise in SHAME... not to be tormented by a "never ending fire", but experiencing their part in the death of the Savior, and the undone forgiveness that accompanies it... THIS is where they shall bow at the knee, and confess... the very same thing that "Christians" did in their moment of this realization...   :dontknow:

Ecc 9:5 -- for the LIVING KNOW that they shall ...DIE... but the DEAD KNOW NOT ANY THING...

1 Cor 15:42-44 --- We are SEEDS being planted in the Earth from which we CAME and to which we shall ALL return -- Gen 3:19 -- for ALL are... IN ADAM -- 1 Cor 15:22 --- and follow the trail he walked... :nod:

Where CHRIST noted that one who believes shall "NEVER die", is speaking of the ENTIRE accomplishment, not INDIVIDUAL... and did not mean what you might think...

"NEVER" means "not at ANY TIME"... which negates the TRUTH given to ADAM in the beginning -- Gen 2:17 -- as well as the proclamation made in Heb 9:27... demoting GOD to having RESPECT of PERSONS (partial to one and not the other)...   If we are APPOINTED to DIE by GOD, then "never die" is NOT an option.

ALL MEN "die" and are APPOINTED to death... and at least TWO of them are named-- Heb 9:27 and Rev 20:8 -- and NO ONE shall escape EITHER!  And these TWO DEATHS cannot be considered as "NEVER" occuring!

Men DIE spiritually in ADAM yet continue to live physically -- Gen 2:17 --  YHVH said unto Adam -- "In the DAY that thou eatest thou shalt SURELY DIE... in the DAY he ate, ADAM... DIED! (the first and "appointed" death)... then HE LIVED his ongoing SINFUL life before the throne of JUDGMENT, then He died the 2nd DEATH... which was physical -- Gen 5:5 -- and has not experienced any more "waiting" than the guy that died ...yesterday... for neither KNOW ANY THING.  To "KNOW" is to BE AWARE.

The death we DIE spiritually, is the "APPOINTMENT to the DEATH" that preceeds JUDGMENT... the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD is NOW...as we live, we sin, as we sin we are JUDGED by YHVH who is EVER PRESENT before each of those manifestations -- John 12:31 -- we are EVER before His THRONE -- Rev 20:11-15 ...NOW... and always have been. 

THIS LIFE ...is... the LAKE of FIRE... for GOD is a CONSUMING FIRE -- Heb 12:29 -- and we are AMIDST (IN) Him NOW -- Acts 17:28

Each one which has DIED spiritually, and because of SIN, will go into the 2nd (physical) Death (no one is noted to escape it, rather some shall not be HURT of it- which means LOSING reward 1 Cor 3:15)

Each is qualified for the 2nd Death by his/her sin which includes --->

FEAR (everyone has experienced being afraid)...
LYING (everyone has lied) --- SORCERY (everyone has been involved in drugs whether legal or illegal)...
IDOLATRY (Pink Floyd, People magazine, your pretty girlfriend, the Beatles, Tom Cruise, etc  :laughing7:)...
WHOREMONGERS (just owning a TV gets you in for this one, and even then, just to look in lust qualifies)...
MURDERERS (to be angry with a brother accomplishes this, anyone listening?)...
ABOMINABLE (just immersion in opposition to HOLINESS, gets you in here), and the BIGGIE =
UNBELIEVERS (which ALL have been concluded by God to be -- Rom 11:32)...

Until CHRIST "authors faith" in you... YOU are an UNBELIEVER and therefore, qualify for your part in the LOF.  :dontknow:  Which is NOT a TORTURE chamber following death... but is NOW... in which we SUFFER immensely at the hand of SIN... Cancer, Aids, Pollutions, Loss of loved ones, War, Aging, the list of the sorrows of MAN in THIS LIFE, is literally endless... as we REAP what we have SOWN.

I agree NT Wright (bishop of Durham in the UK and a noted theologian) is speculating when he makes statements about what it is like for the dead in heaven, but in several places Paul describes the dead as "sleeping" but then eg. you have the passage above where he expects to be enjoying being with Jesus, so it seems more than just sleeping, unconscious, awaiting resurrection.

I have noted many things here which divert this thinking ("going to heaven"), but it is up to the individual, what he/she shall hold as a belief.  :dontknow:

As I see it... (and you are welcome to your own vision) ...If a teaching is NOT documented clearly in the WORD and is NOT NAMED in it SPECIFICALLY... then the "teaching" is an addition to it, and a conjecture created by religion and theologians such as "WRIGHT" or "RONG" or whoever...  :sigh:

willieH  :cloud9:

[Pierac]

Exellent reply WillieH!  But just tone down the theological :spank: 

Love pats, but not like the TSA!  :wink:


2Ti 2:18  men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.


The celebrated Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible:
"No biblical text authorizes the statement that the soul is separated from the body at the moment of death" (Vol. 1, p. 802).


Paul

[willieH]

Exellent reply WillieH!  But just tone down the theological :spank:

Sorry brother, you know me... didn't mean any harm...  :winkgrin:

Just get a hankrin' now & then, to scratch the "theologian itchies"...  :laughing7:

Sorry for rufflin'... they little feathiz a mite 2 mucho...   :laughhand:

The celebrated Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible:
"No biblical text authorizes the statement that the soul is separated from the body at the moment of death" (Vol. 1, p. 802).

Paul

A bit of "excellence" ...yourself!  :2thumbs:  :thumbsup:  :grin:

willieH  :cloud9:

[jabcat]

 :laughing7:

[orlando02]

Thanks for all that... but what do YOU think Paul meant when he said that deep down he wanted to be "gone and to be with Christ" rather than staying alive in the world where he felt he could nonetheless be useful to the other Christians? Was he just thinking of dying, followed by oblivion and then immediate (as far as he would be concerned as he would be aware of no time passing in-between) resurrection in the new Kingdom after Jesus had returned?