Tentmaker Forum

What is "eternal life" for you? People often think Christianity comes down to "your soul going to heaven when you die", but, as British bishop and theologian NT Wright has pointed out, this is not really what the early Christians seemed to be most interested in, they were expecting Jesus to come back, raise the dead into new immortal bodies and establish a new Kingdom that would be literally a kind of Heaven on Earth.

Paul says in some passages that the dead are "sleeping" before the Second Coming, even though in one section he says he is longing to be gone and to be with Christ, so it seems people's existence in heaven is more than just what we think of as sleeping - Wright says it is an intermediate state that is restful but is "like" being asleep compared to the vital existence we will have in new glorious bodies in the Kingdom.

To me though it seems like Jesus has been gone a long time and I find it really stretches my ability to believe, to think this is really going to happen. Do you? If not, I suppose eternal life must mean going to a heaven as a spirit, whatever that is like? Would you see it as praising God all day, or do you think, like for example Spiritualists say, that there are many levels of the afterlife and we go on learning and progressing there?

You can know Jesus in this life, by seeking his presence. Often it is a hard and rough road, but Jesus said seek and you shall find.
It is much more challenging for a gentile to seek God, for our ways are mingled with pagan ways, but if you seek, ye shall find him.
Even though it is God who seeks us first, but we must contend for the faith.

The resurection is the great hope that Paul speaks about, where souls will be given immortal bodies, that is my hope also.

:2c:

Quote from: orlando02 on November 20, 2010, 12:31:30 AMWould you see it as praising God all day, or do you think, like for example Spiritualists say, that there are many levels of the afterlife and we go on learning and progressing there?

He is Father we are His Children. -> Sounds like learning.
The verses that usally are translated as punished actual mean being thaught.
Even believers don't know everything.
So my feeling is teh quote is true. (but haven't found a verse to (dis)prove it.)

From glory to glory.  While I don't think that means what the New Age may think - higher planes, escalating up towards some goal of enlightenment...I don't believe in such inequality, and works based spiritualism.  But I do think that all believers go through stages, and manifestations of that perfect glory, towards more precise, and mature expressions, and knowings of that perfect glory.  From glory to glory indeed.

2 Corinthians 3:18 King James, and CLV

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Now we all with uncovered face, mirroring the Lord's glory, are being transformed into the same image, from glory into/to glory, even as from the Lord, the spirit.

What is Spirit? That is where I will be  and I have comfort and great joy in my Lord and God and Saviour.

Thanks for your thoughts; so it seems like going to Heaven is the key thing for some people, whereas Thinktank looks towards the resurrection as the most important thing. I do think it would be good if there was more clear teaching generally about exactly what Christians believe is going to happen after death - the resurrection into new bodies aspect is something that most people where I am from (UK) don't know about at all. 

I'm not sure if it seems to be the most important thing, the resurection, but Paul seems to think so, he says that if the dead rise not then those who are in their graves perish and ones faith is in vain. I don't know how this can reconcile with the idea of people already being in heaven at the time of the resurection, for if they are already in heaven, why is the resurection so important. I personally think the spirit stays with the soul until the resurection, rather than the spirit seperating to go to heaven, but I'm not entirely sure.

:2c:

If the spirit goes immediately to heaven and teh body starts behind until resurrection/judgement that would mean unjudged/unrepented/unclean spirit are in heaven.... :msealed:

http://georgewarnock.com/feast-main.html

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 20, 2010, 07:35:32 PM
If the spirit goes immediately to heaven and teh body starts behind until resurrection/judgement that would mean unjudged/unrepented/unclean spirit are in heaven.... :msealed:

I mean those that are washed by the blood,might still have to stay behind until the resurection. But I agree that those who are not in Christ cannot be in heaven, unless there is a compartment in heaven for the unclean outisde the city gates as some NDERS report.

That doesn't sound very logical TT.
Who puts saints in the city and dogs outside the city. (or in compartments as your suggested)
Isn't seperating those 2 groups called judgement?
Two judgements? Nah don't think so  :winkgrin:
(BTW scripture also reports the dogs, liars, etc stay outside the city)

κρίνω  = Judge
krinō
Thayer Definition:
1) to separate, put asunder, to pick out, select, choose
2) to approve, esteem, to prefer
3) to be of opinion, deem, think, to be of opinion
4) to determine, resolve, decree
5) to judge
5a) to pronounce an opinion concerning right and wrong
5a1) to be judged, i.e. summoned to trial that one's case may be examined and judgment passed upon it
5b) to pronounce judgment, to subject to censure
5b1) of those who act the part of judges or arbiters in matters of common life, or pass judgment on the deeds and words of others
6) to rule, govern
6a) to preside over with the power of giving judicial decisions, because it was the prerogative of kings and rulers to pass judgment
7) to contend together, of warriors and combatants
7a) to dispute
7b) in a forensic sense
7b1) to go to law, have suit at law
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: perhaps a primitive word
Citing in TDNT: 3:921, 469

Yes you answered my question, the scripture sees dogs outside the city, when it comes to earth. So if its like that on earth it must be the same in heaven.

As for judgments you think that 2 is too much?

I have done a fairly quick study and its possible that as human beings we have to go through 7 or 8 different hell judgments, many of which we are going through right now.

:2c:

On earth we have agression, crime, illness, demon, satan, injustice, famine, hate, etc

Quote from: thinktank on November 20, 2010, 07:59:59 PMSo if its like that on earth it must be the same in heaven.

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 20, 2010, 08:05:30 PM
On earth we have agression, crime, illness, demon, satan, injustice, famine, hate, etc

Quote from: thinktank on November 20, 2010, 07:59:59 PMSo if its like that on earth it must be the same in heaven.

:omg:

MOD EDIT


All those things are not present in heaven, so think before you speak.

I did Tankman.
You wrote things in Heaven must as be on earth.
Personally I think it's unlike earth.

Anyway we agree the dogs are not inside the city and/or in heaven.
Ontopic: Are dogs satans angels?

Earth was meant to be like Heaven and it always has been, and God still intends to make it like Heaven (thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven), that is why we're getting a new Earth, everything that is evil is because it is a perversion of the Earth, it is not something the Earth was meant to have - and it is not meant to have, otherwise the new Earth would still have it.  :2c:

Death is the cause of wickedness - the sting of death is sin.  Death is of the realm of the grave...the grave is not even mentioned at all nor implied to be like Heaven.  This Earth is evil because it is more like the Grave than it is like Heaven.

As for Dogs, gentiles, those who were not of the Judaic branch, or tree, were not allowed into the inner court of the temple - even the proselytes.  Who are the gentiles of today?  The yet "unsaved" - we who are gentiles-saved are grafted into the tree, and so enter the temple.

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 20, 2010, 08:30:41 PM
I did Tankman.
You wrote things in Heaven must as be on earth.
Personally I think it's unlike earth.

Anyway we agree the dogs are not inside the city and/or in heaven.
Ontopic: Are dogs satans angels?

What I meant by heaven must be the same as earth, I did not mean it is the same in kind, I was refering to the scripture in revelation, where there is a seperation between those outisde the city and those inside the city, they are not allowed in because they are unclean. Now in my opinion that verse is talking about mount zion Jerusalem that supernaturally comes down from heaven and into the earth, as the prayer says let thy kingdom come, thy will be done.

So this city in my opinion at this point in time is located in heaven. So if indeed the spirits of the departed go to heaven and they are unclean, not having the blood of christ, then it is likely that, just as in the future  when the unclean were outside the city gates upon the earth, therefore my argument is that they must be outside the gates, today(assuming they go to heaven and not sheol). I heard cardinal say on another thread that some Nders are outside the city gates unable to enter, because they are not in Christ.

Are dogs satans angels?

Some might refer them as that, but I think its unwise to insult supernatural entities. Even God has a certain respect for the devil and the unclean spirits, such as how he granted them entry into the pigs.

But in scriptures dogs are refered towards human beings, because they act as animals, being unclean and not understanding or perceiving spiritual realities. The woman who aproached Christ was refered to as a dog, because she was unclean.

And then the pigs drowned :-)

QuoteAre dogs satans angels?

Some might refer them as that, but I think its unwise to insult supernatural entities.

Aren't the dogs the human sinners.
Dogs=sinners=humans=satans angels.
That's my question. That's what teh verse in the OP seems to say.

willieH:  :happygrin:

"Glory to Glory" is like "Everlasting to Everlasting"...

There is not several "Glories" neither are there multiple "Everlastings"...

We depart to the Far Country, having BEEN in the (ETERNAL as a SINGLE) setting/REALM of GLORY and EVERLASTING, and then RETURN to that setting in which we once WERE -- Luke 15:11-32  :nod:

willieH: Hi orland02... :welcome: to the Tent...

There are other points in your Opening Post, I will address, but let's begin with this one...  :winkgrin:

Quote from: orlando02 on November 20, 2010, 12:31:30 AM
What is "eternal life" for you?

The word ETERNAL implies always having BEEN (not just "never ending")... If it is applied to LIFE, then that LIFE has always been and always will be, ...NOT... just "always will be"... If "someone" (anyone) were to be "tormented eternally" ...then that one has ALWAYS BEEN tormented, IS tormented and ALWAYS WILL BE tormented...  and has never existed in a scenario other than TORMENT, ...which is ridiculous, as well as ILLOGICAL when the GOD which claims to be LOVE itself... is the source of that "someone"  :dontknow:

There is no VALID application of ETERNAL concerning FINITE beings... nor can it be validly attached to any event which has occured in the FINITE scenario. 

Those who are in this scenario, were once IN and then left the ETERNAL setting (see Luke 15:11-32 --- an illustration of the entire LOST human race)... and that they were ETERNALLY living in it, means that ...to THAT scenario alone can this word (eternal life) be attached, not this finite scenario, or anyone WITHIN it.

The word "ETERNAL", when application of it is attempted to made BY FINITES upon themselves and other FINITES... is INVALID.

Unless one can explain and convey COMPREHENSION of the essence and spectrum of things not only WITHOUT END, but also WITHOUT BEGINNING, then one is using a term one does NOT totally, COMPREHEND or UNDERSTAND... and the usage is therefore INVALID due to that lack. (No finite being can explain HOW and/or WHY anything -- including GOD, has NO BEGINNING, and has ALWAYS existed!)

We can openly admit that GOD has many attributes which we cannot understand (not only is without Beginning, but is everywhere, knows everything, etc.)... and application of ETERNAL to Him is merited (even though as with Him "being everywhere" is not comprehended) due to the fact (believed) that He PRECEEDED all things within this FINITE scenario which HAVE beginnings and endings, including ourselves...  :bigGrin:

Also... the words which are translated "EVERLASTING or ETERNAL or FOR EVER" such as -- AION, AIONIOS and OWLAM... are found utilized in describing scenarios that are FINITE in the Scriptures, and dealings with FINITE beings and things. 

Therefore they are NOT validly translated ETERNAL or EVERLASTING by the FINITES which attempt (invalidly) to apply them to themselves, and other FINITES...  :dontknow:

:Peace:

Quote from: Lefein on November 20, 2010, 08:57:39 PM
Earth was meant to be like Heaven and it always has been, and God still intends to make it like Heaven (thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven), that is why we're getting a new Earth, everything that is evil is because it is a perversion of the Earth, it is not something the Earth was meant to have - and it is not meant to have, otherwise the new Earth would still have it.  :2c:

How do you define what is evil - what about all the suffering among animals that eat each other to survive etc? Or natural disasters like earthquakes: would all that disappear in the new Kingdom? Also I ask myself why, now we know ours is one planet in an immense universe, why the creator of everything would intervene so fundamentally for the sake of our planet and our species? Also, geology and history, anthropology, biology etc, do not suggest there was ever a period in the planet's history when everything was a paradise.  I feel like being a Christian would have been so much easier back in the days when people thought the Earth was the centre of the universe and 4,000 years old and the stars were decorative lights etc...   :dontknow:

PS. Thanks for the welcome WillieH, I will mull over what you said

Hello orlando, the book of Isiah prophecies that the wolf shall lie down with the lamb and the lion shall eat straw as the ox.

Also another book says the whole creation groaneth together for the manifestation of the sons of God. When the bride of christ has entered full maturity and the fullness of the churhc is complete, the sons of God will return with Christ to renew the earth and bring peace to the earth.

It says in another book that all the nations of the world will come to Jerusalem every year to pay homage to the king.

As for the past, that is a clouded history of mankind. But from the biblical viewpoint most christians agree that the planet was once created in harmony and there was no death or curse upon the earth.

Some legends of the past include Atlantis and other golden ages of the past, hardly proof as such, and be carefull if you research these things, for they are often tied to other beliefs, but the past seems to have been a golden earth of paradise as Genesis says that eden was all good.

Thank you for reminding me of those verses; those are good points. However I don't personally see any reason to disbelieve the scientific consensus that the story of life is several billion years of organisms living and dying and competiting to survive, so I don't see when there was  golden age. Or do you not accept that viewpoint? I personally don't think scientists have some atheistic axe to grind, I think they just follow evidence where it leads them. Fort example, one of the greatest of all scientists, Isaac Newton, was a Christian, but then he came before the time of Darwin, before geologists could date the strata in the Earth and so on.

The biggest problem I have with evolution is the moral implications. In my view 6000 years is a very long time for mankind to be in an existence of death. But evolution is something where death is a normal part of life, where it exists for millions or is it billions  :dontknow:(not sure what number they have arrived at) of years.

there is a way around this, but it opens up the door to some potentially dangerous ideas, I'm not going to discuss here.
But even then with this "idea" it still means that animals will go through the process of death and God created them to cycle through death. Since most of us cry or get upset when our favourite pet dies, it seems strange that God who has far more love than us would create a species that must go through death, unless somehow he creates animals to be similar to insects that do not have living souls i.e that twinkle you see in a dogs eyes and the tears they shed.
:2c:

orlando02

Evil, according to my understanding is a single word that we (in English) use to define two ideas;

Wickedness/Sinfulness, Calamity/Woe.

Both of these are harmful, but in different ways, and have different essences, with similar results.

Wickedness/Sinfulness - this sort of evil I define as "absence of good", or the perversion of it (which is tantamount to absence).  This will disappear most certainly because everyone will be full of God; who is Life, Truth, Love, Goodness, and basically the very being of all blessed benevolence. 

Example: When someone is full of love, fully saturated, and their whole being is prone towards love, and expressing it - they have nothing to do with hate.

Calamity/Woe - this sort of evil I define as two things;

Indirect: The natural course of nature's disasters, natural occurrences/consequences that come from one's actions, or cause-effect.  Example; if you sit in the middle of busy traffic for no good reason, even if you expect God to protect you, you're going to get hurt...Do not tempt the Lord your God with stupidity.  :laughing7:  I also think that the concept of sowing, and reaping what you sow has some place here.

Direct: Judgement - when everyone in a city is sinning in a common way, and consistently, and shows no signs or intent of repenting without something being done, a disaster will be sent, or blessings will stop raining down, or protection will be lifted.  The concept of sowing and reaping what you sow certainly has a place here.

I think that natural disasters, might be under our control in the future time.  Since the earth will be under our dominion, or they might not occur at all, I cannot say for certain.

As for why God intervenes; Because we are his.  If there is any life, anywhere that he has made that is in his image, he intervenes.  He loves us.

As for the geology, history, anthropology, the sciences - I can't answer these thoroughly - I was never there.  I myself am and Old Earth Creationist with evolutionary leanings.  However this might help;

http://www.taylor.edu/academics/supportservices/cslewis/colloquium/2004/taylor.shtml

I suggest anything by George MacDonald, he is a very good author.  Here are some audio books on youtube for further looks;

http://www.youtube.com/user/GeorgeMacDonaldWorks#g/p

My speculation, was that the paradise of Eden was not necessarily something that was "perfect", God said he made it good, but it wasn't glorified - if that makes sense.  So there is alot of room to think in that realm of things.  A rule of thumb I've always followed personally; Genesis-Creation account (the beginning of the Bible) reads very much like Revelation (the end of the Bible), two books that describe literal ideas through symbolic, or artistic language.

Supposedly the fist simple lifeforms existed about 3 billion years ago and mammals about 200 million years ago... The mind does boggle a bit at such numbers. I'd be interested to hear more about the theory you refer to that you don't want to discuss - makes it hard to think about whether it's helpful to me or not! It seems like a lot to take on faith to believe the earth is only a few thousand years old when the expert geologists etc say it's not.

Thanks Lefein, I will check out your links

Quote from: orlando02 on November 21, 2010, 01:29:49 AM
Supposedly the fist simple lifeforms existed about 3 billion years ago and mammals about 200 million years ago... The mind does boggle a bit at such numbers. I'd be interested to hear more about the theory you refer to that you don't want to discuss - makes it hard to think about whether it's helpful to me or not! It seems like a lot to take on faith to believe the earth is only a few thousand years old when the expert geologists etc say it's not.

Not all believe in a 6000 year old earth. Even Jews living centuries ago believed in a earth of unknown age and mankind being 6000 years old.
I you take a secular and Biblical time table you will see quite a few things match. First Argiculture. First cities. Tubal Cains bronze age etc.
Personally I be believe in a 14.7 billion year universe. But not in Darwinian evolution. Missing links have never been found. What's found is that new species suddenly existed. Examining certain mutations in DNA shows a quite Biblical age for mankind.....
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/the_vatican_claims_darwins_theory_evolution_is_compatible_christianity_4854.msg51383.html#msg51383
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/creation_sciencefaith_and_part_genesis_merged_8616.msg103896.html#msg103896

:lazy: :snor:

willieH: Hi again, Orlando02  :cloud9:

Now to address the rest of your OP:

Quote from: orlando02 on November 20, 2010, 12:31:30 AM
often think Christianity comes down to "your soul going to heaven when you die", but, as British bishop and theologian NT Wright has pointed out, this is not really what the early Christians seemed to be most interested in, they were expecting Jesus to come back, raise the dead into new immortal bodies and establish a new Kingdom that would be literally a kind of Heaven on Earth.

Actually, the WORD says NOTHING about "going to Heaven"... but does say a few  things about "Heaven coming to earth"  :laughing7:

Quote from: orlando02 on November 20, 2010, 12:31:30 AMPaul says in some passages that the dead are "sleeping" before the Second Coming, even though in one section he says he is longing to be gone and to be with Christ, so it seems people's existence in heaven is more than just what we think of as sleeping

Where does the WORD say that... "people have an existence in Heaven"?  :dontknow:

Quote from: orlando02 on November 20, 2010, 12:31:30 AMWright says it is an intermediate state that is restful but is "like" being asleep compared to the vital existence we will have in new glorious bodies in the Kingdom.

Upon what does "Wright" found this (SPECULATION)?  If the WORD is silent about something/anything, where does anyone ("Wright" for instance), get the audacity to ADD ones OWN WORDS, to that SILENCE?  :sigh:

As I see it, ...wherever WRIGHT speaks, and the WORD  is silent, ...ah, WRIGHT is, ah, .......wrong.  :pointlaugh:

Quote from: orlando02 on November 20, 2010, 12:31:30 AMTo me though it seems like Jesus has been gone a long time and I find it really stretches my ability to believe, to think this is really going to happen. Do you?

It was PROPHESIED long ago, that some would get weary and begin to question the coming of CHRIST  -- 2 Pet 3:3-4 -- Let us not be weary... but faithful (if I have misunderstood what you have said here, I certainly apologize ahead of time!   :blush: 

To wait upon YHVH  is an exercise in LOVING and FAITHFUL, ...PATIENCE...  :winkgrin:

Quote from: orlando02 on November 20, 2010, 12:31:30 AMIf not, I suppose eternal life must mean going to a heaven as a spirit, whatever that is like? Would you see it as praising God all day, or do you think, like for example Spiritualists say, that there are many levels of the afterlife and we go on learning and progressing there?

FIRST --- How can anyone SPECULATE as to the activities or experience of "Heaven"?

SECOND --- I realize you mean no harm in mentioning "afterlife"... however, it is an UNBIBLICAL suggestion... and has no real position nor pertinence within a Biblical discussion.

A better suggestion and one which is IN the WORD, ...is that we shall RETURN to where our journey, ...BEGAN --> Luke 15:13-20 :nod:

Willie, in this passage, for example, it sounds like Paul think s after he dies he will go to Heaven and be with Jesus:
Philippians 1

21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

    22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labour for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know!

    23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;

    24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

I agree NT Wright (bishop of Durham in the UK and a noted theologian) is speculating when he makes statements about what it is like for the dead in heaven, but in several places Paul describes the dead as "sleeping" but then eg. you have the passage above where he expects to be enjoying being with Jesus, so it seems more than just sleeping, unconscious, awaiting resurrection.

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 21, 2010, 01:48:45 AM
. Missing links have never been found. What's found is that new species suddenly existed.

I don't know the exact figure of how many dead animals end up as fossils, but it a very rare phenomenon, so that could be one reason (say it's one in a million, then on top of that an archaeologist has to dig in just the right place to find it); also  evolutionists draw up family trees of animals, and they don't suggest, eg. you had a sheep and one of its offspring was suddenly a half-sheep/half-pig or something; the common ancestor of the sheep and pig would have been probably, according to the theory, have been 100 million years earlier and looked like a shrew. So the changes are small and gradual. Also, there are some examples of transitional forms, like the archaeoperix, that's a mixture of a reptile and a bird.

3 billion year old organisms have been found but transitional forms.
Random mutations are just that; random. They don't move in a certain direction.
"Survival of the fittest" Transitional forms are unfit.

http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/Encyclopedia/20hist09.htm

QuoteSo the changes are small and gradual

Lets assume evolution from a cow into a elephant takes 1 billion mutations. Also lets assume the cow is extinct since millions of years. Then there are a billion more transitional forms that just the start (cow) and end (elephant)
Also because mutations are random some cows mutated into lions and  giraffes. Obviously lots of mutation branches are unsuccesful and exict at say mutation 500 miljon.
So when that cow mutated in say 5 animals that live right now it means for every orginial cow fossile there should be found 5 billion transition fossiles.
I agree with you "archaeologist has to dig in just the right place to find it)" so I don't expect 5 billion transitional forms.
What we have right now is many end-forms are a very rare transitional form. And (almost) all have been proven fake. That's extremely odd because the chance to file transtional fossiles is immensely bigger than the original forms.
:2c:

willieH: Hi orlando02...  :cloud9:

[Mod edit]  

Quote from: orlando02 on November 21, 2010, 11:30:33 AMWillie, in this passage, for example, it sounds like Paul think s after he dies he will go to Heaven and be with Jesus:
Philippians 1

21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labour for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know!

23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;

24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

Please know that I mean no negativity toward you,  but... this does not say this at all as I see it...

PAUL referred to those "ASLEEP" -- 1 Cor 15:18 -- in CHRIST  as well as "DEAD" in CHRIST -- 1 Thess 4:16 -- whattupwidat?

Are believers "in Heaven" having a "SIESTA" -- :lazy: -- or is there a "DIVINE graveyard" ...up there?  :grave: 

If everyone who "believes" ...never dies... How can there be those who are "ASLEEP" or "DEAD"?

No offense to anyone, but ..."Christians" are some of the most delusional people in the world.  They think themselves EXEMPT from the things of this life, and that others are NOT...  They percieve THEMSELVES a PRIZE which God covets... and others are, well... FIREWOOD!  :pitiful: 

Most "Christians" are not that ("Christians") at all, thinking themselves MORE than their Savior... for CHRIST led the way, and most, often do not BELIEVE what He said (the JUDGMENT is NOW, that He did and said NOTHING of Himself, that there is only ONE GOD, ect.) ... They percieve that He DID one thing they seem to think they are excluded from... which is DIE...  How bassackwards is this?   :mshock:

Are we GREATER than He?  That HE should suffer DEATH and WE shall NEVER DIE?  Well, FYI...  the GRAVEYARD is FULL of these delusionals, waiting for more... and not ONE of them has experienced another moment since they entered that graveyard... for they KNOW not ANY ...THING...

Thinking themselves EXEMPT from DEATH... when it is NEEDED to escape this SINFUL life in which we are DROWNING in the WRATH of GOD, which comes against our SINFULNESS and UNGODLINESS -- Rom 1:18

Thinking GOD a master TORTURER, instead of LOVE,  ...teaching others to FEAR Him when HE is LOVE and LOVE is in the business of CASTING OUT FEAR -- 1 John 4:18

Futhermore proposing to the WORLD (He so LOVES, btw) of His ALL POWERFUL WRATH against them, creating of our KIND and LOVING Father, ...the BIGGEST BULLY of ALL TIME, instead of teaching the GOOD NEWS of the GREATEST LOVER of ALL TIME... 

Thinking GOD holds one "lump of dirt" above and better than another... thinking GOD relieves them of all their blasphemies and mistreatments of others and accountability of their doings, ...by a (yet another UNBIBLICAL TEACHING) -- "SINNERS PRAYER"... :mnah:

Death is sleep... TIME ceases within that sleep... the next awareness for EACH ONE that DIES, is CHRIST... Some will rise in POWER for they have believed, and their SIN shall be covered in the CLOTHING of that belief -- Rev 3:18 -- and MOST shall rise in SHAME... not to be tormented by a "never ending fire", but experiencing their part in the death of the Savior, and the undone forgiveness that accompanies it... THIS is where they shall bow at the knee, and confess... the very same thing that "Christians" did in their moment of this realization...   :dontknow:

Ecc 9:5 -- for the LIVING KNOW that they shall ...DIE... but the DEAD KNOW NOT ANY THING...

1 Cor 15:42-44 --- We are SEEDS being planted in the Earth from which we CAME and to which we shall ALL return -- Gen 3:19 -- for ALL are... IN ADAM -- 1 Cor 15:22 --- and follow the trail he walked... :nod:

Where CHRIST noted that one who believes shall "NEVER die", is speaking of the ENTIRE accomplishment, not INDIVIDUAL... and did not mean what you might think...

"NEVER" means "not at ANY TIME"... which negates the TRUTH given to ADAM in the beginning -- Gen 2:17 -- as well as the proclamation made in Heb 9:27... demoting GOD to having RESPECT of PERSONS (partial to one and not the other)...   If we are APPOINTED to DIE by GOD, then "never die" is NOT an option.

ALL MEN "die" and are APPOINTED to death... and at least TWO of them are named-- Heb 9:27 and Rev 20:8 -- and NO ONE shall escape EITHER!  And these TWO DEATHS cannot be considered as "NEVER" occuring!

Men DIE spiritually in ADAM yet continue to live physically -- Gen 2:17 --  YHVH said unto Adam -- "In the DAY that thou eatest thou shalt SURELY DIE... in the DAY he ate, ADAM... DIED! (the first and "appointed" death)... then HE LIVED his ongoing SINFUL life before the throne of JUDGMENT, then He died the 2nd DEATH... which was physical -- Gen 5:5 -- and has not experienced any more "waiting" than the guy that died ...yesterday... for neither KNOW ANY THING.  To "KNOW" is to BE AWARE.

The death we DIE spiritually, is the "APPOINTMENT to the DEATH" that preceeds JUDGMENT... the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD is NOW...as we live, we sin, as we sin we are JUDGED by YHVH who is EVER PRESENT before each of those manifestations -- John 12:31 -- we are EVER before His THRONE -- Rev 20:11-15 ...NOW... and always have been. 

THIS LIFE ...is... the LAKE of FIRE... for GOD is a CONSUMING FIRE -- Heb 12:29 -- and we are AMIDST (IN) Him NOW -- Acts 17:28

Each one which has DIED spiritually, and because of SIN, will go into the 2nd (physical) Death (no one is noted to escape it, rather some shall not be HURT of it- which means LOSING reward 1 Cor 3:15)

Each is qualified for the 2nd Death by his/her sin which includes --->

FEAR (everyone has experienced being afraid)...
LYING (everyone has lied) --- SORCERY (everyone has been involved in drugs whether legal or illegal)...
IDOLATRY (Pink Floyd, People magazine, your pretty girlfriend, the Beatles, Tom Cruise, etc  :laughing7:)...
WHOREMONGERS (just owning a TV gets you in for this one, and even then, just to look in lust qualifies)...
MURDERERS (to be angry with a brother accomplishes this, anyone listening?)...
ABOMINABLE (just immersion in opposition to HOLINESS, gets you in here), and the BIGGIE =
UNBELIEVERS (which ALL have been concluded by God to be -- Rom 11:32)...

Until CHRIST "authors faith" in you... YOU are an UNBELIEVER and therefore, qualify for your part in the LOF.  :dontknow:  Which is NOT a TORTURE chamber following death... but is NOW... in which we SUFFER immensely at the hand of SIN... Cancer, Aids, Pollutions, Loss of loved ones, War, Aging, the list of the sorrows of MAN in THIS LIFE, is literally endless... as we REAP what we have SOWN.

Quote from: orlando02 on November 21, 2010, 11:30:33 AM
I agree NT Wright (bishop of Durham in the UK and a noted theologian) is speculating when he makes statements about what it is like for the dead in heaven, but in several places Paul describes the dead as "sleeping" but then eg. you have the passage above where he expects to be enjoying being with Jesus, so it seems more than just sleeping, unconscious, awaiting resurrection.

I have noted many things here which divert this thinking ("going to heaven"), but it is up to the individual, what he/she shall hold as a belief.  :dontknow:

As I see it... (and you are welcome to your own vision) ...If a teaching is NOT documented clearly in the WORD and is NOT NAMED in it SPECIFICALLY... then the "teaching" is an addition to it, and a conjecture created by religion and theologians such as "WRIGHT" or "RONG" or whoever...  :sigh:

Exellent reply WillieH!  But just tone down the theological :spank: 

Love pats, but not like the TSA!  :wink:


2Ti 2:18  men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.


The celebrated Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible:
"No biblical text authorizes the statement that the soul is separated from the body at the moment of death" (Vol. 1, p. 802).


Paul  

Quote from: Pierac on November 22, 2010, 01:56:54 AM
Exellent reply WillieH!  But just tone down the theological :spank:

Sorry brother, you know me... didn't mean any harm...  :winkgrin:

Just get a hankrin' now & then, to scratch the "theologian itchies"...  :laughing7:

Sorry for rufflin'... they little feathiz a mite 2 mucho...   :laughhand:

QuoteThe celebrated Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible:
"No biblical text authorizes the statement that the soul is separated from the body at the moment of death" (Vol. 1, p. 802).

Paul

A bit of "excellence" ...yourself!  :2thumbs:  :thumbsup:  :grin:

 :laughing7:

Thanks for all that... but what do YOU think Paul meant when he said that deep down he wanted to be "gone and to be with Christ" rather than staying alive in the world where he felt he could nonetheless be useful to the other Christians? Was he just thinking of dying, followed by oblivion and then immediate (as far as he would be concerned as he would be aware of no time passing in-between) resurrection in the new Kingdom after Jesus had returned?