Turn the other cheek

[GodIsLove]

You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'h 39But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

How are we to actually live this out?
Does Jesus's teachings allow for self defense or violence/killing in war?

I would tend to say that the Old Testament does but Jesus's teachings don't.

So again, how do we live this out?

[MusicLover123]

On violence/killing in war, let me ask you one question. Is doing these things loving your enemy? Of course, we only have to "agape" them, and not even with all our heart, soul, strength, and mind. That is only to God. We also do not Phileo our enemy, but this does not make way for killing them, right?

I used to think that self defence was allowed, but recently, not so much anymore.

Mat 26:52
52Then saith Jesus to him, 'Turn back thy sword to its place; for all who did take the sword, by the sword shall perish

Just ask, in Faith, what to do. If you are not doing anything in Faith, that is sinning, correct? If He leads you one way, go that way. If He leads another, go there. If someone is led someway different than you, don't think, if you truly are in Faith, that you are sinning. We all end up in the same place, but not all in the same way.

[marie glen]

War is one of the worst horrors, but also Jesus said He didn't come to bring peace (yet) but a sword.. like in the case of Hitler.. the u.s. many say now, looking back, should have gotten into the war sooner! And had they not altogether, Hitler may have gained domination, perhaps eventually global.

If I were king (or government) I can turn my cheek to those who slap or insult me, etc. but is it righteous to let warriors come in and kill the people? Or enslave them..

There's many views on this, and pacifism is the dream of us all.. but I think "flaw" as opposed to God's perfection and perfect will, is limitless in potential, and part of that is oppression and great cruelties.

I kind of think of it as like a huge bully.. if the bully is allowed to carry out his will without challenge, the bullying is likely to get worse and worse.. we can pray.. but if he's beating up others especially smaller than him, etc.. it's kind of like telling a hungry person.. goodbye, be well I will pray for you but we give them no food..

But still, war is one of the very greatest of horrors.. (red horse? & pale horse w/ the [mass] grave?) Yet with all its horrors, of letting this flawed/imperfection run its course proving truth, I think His blueprint and finished product is SO good, it's worth it..

p.s., Partly why the league of nations was envisioned (first by u.s. Pres. Wilson) was to protect smaller, more defenseless nations against stronger, aggressive nations (bent on, for some reason, domination. Of course it expired when the u.s. debating the issue, didn't sign on after all, but then after the (horrific fiery) bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it was rebuilt as the United Nations.. Trying to prevent the bullies.. international.. (But doesn't, to me, seem to be the vision or goal now though! Except to see Israel and the U.S. as bullies.. oy..)

[jabcat]

War is one of the worst horrors, but also Jesus said He didn't come to bring peace (yet) but a sword.. like in the case of Hitler.. the u.s. many say now, looking back, should have gotten into the war sooner! And had they not altogether, Hitler may have gained domination, perhaps eventually global.

If I were king (or government) I can turn my cheek to those who slap or insult me, etc. but is it righteous to let warriors come in and kill the people? Or enslave them..

There's many views on this, and pacifism is the dream of us all..

Yes, I am a pacifist in hope.  Also believe nations should be unless sure they are protecting innocents and helpless.  Then do what needs to be done.  Also, seek to be a pacifist in personal matters such as insult, or even "simple" assault. Treat me poorly, usually fail miserably, but my ideal is to turn the other cheek.  Forgive, do not repay evil with evil.  But when it comes to life and limb, including protection of other innocents - and especially my family - I say with God's help - don't mess with them.  I have legal carry, and would use it if need be.  I personally feel it's a person's responsibility to protect the innocent, and have hindered respect for any individual who is able to do otherwise but would stand by and watch his family be abused, molested, even killed, without doing whatever is necessary to protect them.  I've pondered this issue for some years, but unless God ever clearly tells me otherwise, I trust Him for protection, but pray He provides the means and guidance for true aim, enough nerve, etc., if ever the situation arose.   :2c:

[sheila]

 :2c:following Christ and picking up our cross..we are going to bear insults[slapped cheek]hopefully with grace.also  suffer loss

of material possessions, force also will be used against the faithful at times. And even with this we are to continue to give of our

substance to our fellow man in need.

   Now,in case the persecuting gets too 'hot' we are allowed to 'flee' elsewhere...but..may  come a time

when you are actually put to death for your faith.The 'prince of this world" may very well use any or all of these things to'sift'us.

BUT NOT UNLESS IT IS GOD'S WILL WE BE TRIED IN THIS MANNER. We can pray'that a particular cup" may not be asked of us..

say,seeing  our family slaughtered..but it is ultimately up to His will..how far and how much of evil we may be tried of.

    He did not promise us a 'cushy'garden of eden "life here..

but we are told we will have 'trouble' here.

[GodIsLove]

On violence/killing in war, let me ask you one question. Is doing these things loving your enemy? Of course, we only have to "agape" them, and not even with all our heart, soul, strength, and mind. That is only to God. We also do not Phileo our enemy, but this does not make way for killing them, right?

I used to think that self defence was allowed, but recently, not so much anymore.

Mat 26:52
52Then saith Jesus to him, 'Turn back thy sword to its place; for all who did take the sword, by the sword shall perish

Just ask, in Faith, what to do. If you are not doing anything in Faith, that is sinning, correct? If He leads you one way, go that way. If He leads another, go there. If someone is led someway different than you, don't think, if you truly are in Faith, that you are sinning. We all end up in the same place, but not all in the same way.

I would agree that Jesus' teaching seems to be extreme and not include self defense.

Would you personally be able to practice that?

Is there a difference between self defense and defending another innocent, such as if u witness someone attacking a child?  Or is this nonviolence all the way?

Do we teach our children to allow bullies to beat them up without resisting?

OR is the teaching to be looked at or interpreted in another way, such as not to seek retribution for wrongs. Eye for an eye was in the OT as a law of balancing wrongs with an equal retribution. Is this passage saying don't try to do something to "get even"?

[GodIsLove]

War is one of the worst horrors, but also Jesus said He didn't come to bring peace (yet) but a sword.. like in the case of Hitler.. the u.s. many say now, looking back, should have gotten into the war sooner! And had they not altogether, Hitler may have gained domination, perhaps eventually global.

If I were king (or government) I can turn my cheek to those who slap or insult me, etc. but is it righteous to let warriors come in and kill the people? Or enslave them..

There's many views on this, and pacifism is the dream of us all.. but I think "flaw" as opposed to God's perfection and perfect will, is limitless in potential, and part of that is oppression and great cruelties.

I kind of think of it as like a huge bully.. if the bully is allowed to carry out his will without challenge, the bullying is likely to get worse and worse.. we can pray.. but if he's beating up others especially smaller than him, etc.. it's kind of like telling a hungry person.. goodbye, be well I will pray for you but we give them no food..

But still, war is one of the very greatest of horrors.. (red horse? & pale horse w/ the [mass] grave?) Yet with all its horrors, of letting this flawed/imperfection run its course proving truth, I think His blueprint and finished product is SO good, it's worth it..

p.s., Partly why the league of nations was envisioned (first by u.s. Pres. Wilson) was to protect smaller, more defenseless nations against stronger, aggressive nations (bent on, for some reason, domination. Of course it expired when the u.s. debating the issue, didn't sign on after all, but then after the (horrific fiery) bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it was rebuilt as the United Nations.. Trying to prevent the bullies.. international.. (But doesn't, to me, seem to be the vision or goal now though! Except to see Israel and the U.S. as bullies.. oy..)

I think the not peace but a sword refers to division, not violence right?

But, without basis in NT scripture, I do agree that I personally would find it hard or impossible to not defend innocents even if using violence to do so, such as your example of Hitler and the Nazis.  I used to think I could carry out the turn the other cheek teachings, now I'm not so sure. I'm wondering if that is truly what is asked of us, or if this is just showing something else. Jesus did the ultimate turning the other cheek during his death and didn't resist or fight. And my earlier question to ML if this is more in line of not seeking retribution?

I teach my kids that eye for an eye used to be the law but now it isn't because two wrongs don't make a right...

But I have also told them if someone won't stop hurting them and they try to use words or walk awa and it doesn't work they can push or use some force. Is it unbiblical to teach this?

[CST]

War is one of the worst horrors, but also Jesus said He didn't come to bring peace (yet) but a sword.. like in the case of Hitler.. the u.s. many say now, looking back, should have gotten into the war sooner! And had they not altogether, Hitler may have gained domination, perhaps eventually global.

If I were king (or government) I can turn my cheek to those who slap or insult me, etc. but is it righteous to let warriors come in and kill the people? Or enslave them..

There's many views on this, and pacifism is the dream of us all.. but I think "flaw" as opposed to God's perfection and perfect will, is limitless in potential, and part of that is oppression and great cruelties.

I kind of think of it as like a huge bully.. if the bully is allowed to carry out his will without challenge, the bullying is likely to get worse and worse.. we can pray.. but if he's beating up others especially smaller than him, etc.. it's kind of like telling a hungry person.. goodbye, be well I will pray for you but we give them no food..

But still, war is one of the very greatest of horrors.. (red horse? & pale horse w/ the [mass] grave?) Yet with all its horrors, of letting this flawed/imperfection run its course proving truth, I think His blueprint and finished product is SO good, it's worth it..

p.s., Partly why the league of nations was envisioned (first by u.s. Pres. Wilson) was to protect smaller, more defenseless nations against stronger, aggressive nations (bent on, for some reason, domination. Of course it expired when the u.s. debating the issue, didn't sign on after all, but then after the (horrific fiery) bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it was rebuilt as the United Nations.. Trying to prevent the bullies.. international.. (But doesn't, to me, seem to be the vision or goal now though! Except to see Israel and the U.S. as bullies.. oy..)

I think the not peace but a sword refers to division, not violence right?

But, without basis in NT scripture, I do agree that I personally would find it hard or impossible to not defend innocents even if using violence to do so, such as your example of Hitler and the Nazis.  I used to think I could carry out the turn the other cheek teachings, now I'm not so sure. I'm wondering if that is truly what is asked of us, or if this is just showing something else. Jesus did the ultimate turning the other cheek during his death and didn't resist or fight. And my earlier question to ML if this is more in line of not seeking retribution?

I teach my kids that eye for an eye used to be the law but now it isn't because two wrongs don't make a right...

But I have also told them if someone won't stop hurting them and they try to use words or walk awa and it doesn't work they can push or use some force. Is it unbiblical to teach this?

Yes, Christ's point was that if your members of your natural family say wanted to remain faithful Palestinian Jews while you wanted to follow Jesus and wished for them to do the same if ever it can to a time between choosing them or choosing Jesus you were to choose Jesus. Jesus no doubt expected there were numerous possibilities for this to occur in all the families of the Earth because the world did not accept Him. "Any one who loves Father, Mother, Sister, Brother, etc more than me is not worthy of me. I'm not sure anyone is actually worthy of Jesus in fact I'm sure they're not but that's not the point here.

On the main point we are discussing 'Lex Talionis'  and Christ's reinterpretation of it people seem to be very quick to take this premise literally.

Imagine if get into a fight with someone and in the process of this fight they injure you such that you lose your left eye. Taken literally you can now take their left eye to balance the books.

But now imagine they have already got no sight in their right eye. Taking their left eye will make them entirely blind while you are still sighted in one eye. Are we sure that's really balanced?

And how do you give people identical bruises or identical burns when such things form chaotically?

The law is not to be taken literally but to define justice which in order to be properly just must be delivered by maintaining as much as possible perspective and proportion, something people tend to be increasingly willing to abandon screaming for increasing degrees of punishment and increasing rates after they hear about the incident.

Jesus' counter examples are built in the same mode to encourage response according to virtues such as patience. Jesus isn't literally asking anyone anyone, upon being struck on one cheek to present the other one as if to say 'go on, I dare you' because they'll probably take to up on it. Jesus is interpreting that the original law would be 'if they strike your left cheek you can strike there's back'. This causes escalation of both hostility and suffering and Jesus is using a hyperbole to dissuade people from doing this.

If someone makes you go with them one mile they probably aren't about to go another mile and if you follow them around after that point you'll just become irksome at best and a stalker at worst and they fast may take unpleasant actions to get rid of you.

These are not instructions of things you're actually meant to do, they are hyperbolas used to make a point about merciful and virtuous behaviour.

[GodIsLove]

On the main point we are discussing 'Lex Talionis'  and Christ's reinterpretation of it people seem to be very quick to take this premise literally

The law is not to be taken literally but to define justice which in order to be properly just must be delivered by maintaining as much as possible perspective and proportion, something people tend to be increasingly willing to abandon screaming for increasing degrees of punishment and increasing rates after they hear about the incident.

Jesus' counter examples are built in the same mode to encourage response according to virtues such as patience. Jesus isn't literally asking anyone anyone, upon being struck on one cheek to present the other one as if to say 'go on, I dare you' because they'll probably take to up on it. Jesus is interpreting that the original law would be 'if they strike your left cheek you can strike there's back'. This causes escalation of both hostility and suffering and Jesus is using a hyperbole to dissuade people from doing this.

These are not instructions of things you're actually meant to do, they are hyperbolas used to make a point about merciful and virtuous behaviour.

These parts I quoted were the most helpful to me. Thanks for the perspective.

[sheila]

Proverbs 19;11....it is the glory of a man to overlook an insult[cheek slapped]how is this a man's glory? because God's character shines

through insuch instances.[love keeps no accountof theinjury] thus man exhibiting the image and likeness of God...thus..let us make

man in our image and likeness.Really,this is whatit's all about..God raising up man in His image andlikeness[His children]Notice,I did

not say it is man by his own works making himself into what he thinks God is like. It goes much deeper than any fleshly outward

appearance...this grand eternal/immortal creation of God..and  the works of His hands. :2c:  after allwe shall be just like him[Christ,

the very image of God] which is somewhat overwhelming and fills me with awe at the very prospect...of the GLORY THAT AWAITS

all the children in that  ETERNAL Kingdom.

[MusicLover123]

Proverbs 19;11....it is the glory of a man to overlook an insult[cheek slapped]how is this a man's glory? because God's character shines

through insuch instances.[love keeps no accountof theinjury] thus man exhibiting the image and likeness of God...thus..let us make

man in our image and likeness.Really,this is whatit's all about..God raising up man in His image andlikeness[His children]Notice,I did

not say it is man by his own works making himself into what he thinks God is like. It goes much deeper than any fleshly outward

appearance...this grand eternal/immortal creation of God..and  the works of His hands. :2c:  after allwe shall be just like him[Christ,

the very image of God] which is somewhat overwhelming and fills me with awe at the very prospect...of the GLORY THAT AWAITS

all the children in that  ETERNAL Kingdom.

KJV Psa_139:14  I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

KJV Isa_9:7  Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
CLV Isa 9:7 To the increase of the chieftainship, and to the welfare shall be no end. On the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to prepare it, and to brace it with judgment and with justice, henceforth and in the future eon. The zeal of Yahweh of hosts will do this.
Rotherham Isa 9:7  Of the increase of dominion, and of prosperity, There shall be no end—Upon the throne of David and Upon his kingdom, By establishing it and By sustaining it, With justice and With righteousness,—From henceforth, Even unto times age-abiding: The jealousy of Yahweh of hosts, will perform this!
YLT Isa 9:7  To the increase of the princely power, And of peace, there is no end, On the throne of David, and on his kingdom, To establish it, and to support it, In judgment and in righteousness, Henceforth, even unto the age, The zeal of Jehovah of Hosts doth this. 

Amen

[Dandelion]

I think, in response to the original question, Jesus is saying something very revolutionary. He is saying do not fight aggression with more aggression, but oppose it with love.

Darkness cannot change darkness......only light can do that.

I don't think he wants us to get killed in some dark alley, however. I don't believe that is his message.

He wants us to take an entirely different outlook and approach, however. It goes with the message of praying for one's enemies.

In God's Kingdom, there are no enemies....only brothers and sisters....even if some of them have a bad attitude issue.     :rolllol:

D.

[jabcat]

Jesus is saying .. do not fight aggression with more aggression, but oppose it with love.

I don't think he wants us to get killed in some dark alley, however. I don't believe that is his message.

He wants us to take an entirely different outlook and approach, however. It goes with the message of praying for one's enemies.

:thumbsup:

[rosered]

Honestly  if you  are  even  called of God out of the world   for a certain purpose  , the world is going to hate you .
  This is  going  to be hard to get used to  , because it goes against the grain  , the world Is FULL  OF CARNAL MANKIND!!  as well also   we can fall down into the ways of worldly thinking also  , it is falling from   truth and grace   and back down into death again  in my opinion , a stumble  in pride of life ..  so how to stay spiritual  in a carnal world ?  stay humble and kind  , but also be as wise as a serpent but as harmless as a dove ...    this is  our cross to bear  also  following Jesus example  and testimony /witness ..

How does the spiritually new born  survive  the world without Gods protection ? But His  all seeing eyes are on all the world  continually.     for  me  ,I   begin to notice how the Word of GOD is worded !

Our biggest clues to me  is found in   Rev 12  when the manchild  is born and is instantly  sought to be devoured of the dragon in REV 12    I used to think  this was Jesus Christ  , being the firstborn  , of many brethren ...      but it is the pattern  set  of anyone born again of   THE HOLY SPIRIT  OF GOD  though the WORD / Holy SEED  ,  my  understanding come for those whom held the testimony of Jesus Christ  , so  its not Jesus  , but those  in Christ  , from the first to the last  revelation / revealing  truth  from the beginning of the world  even .  But shown to us by   the book of revelation  , a kind of key that opens  up   all the scriptures   for us though the shedding of the  lambs blood from the foundation of the world .  and unlocking the mysteries of God  held for ages   and it is GODS MERCY   THOUGH THE LORD JESUS CHRIST  and  always was,  and is,  and will be .

  two witnesses ..  of  the old and new  testaments   Isaiah 22 . 22I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David. What he opens, no one can shut; what he shuts, no one can open. 23I will drive him like a peg into a firm place, and he will be a throne of glory for the house of his father....

Matthew 16:19
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Revelation 3:7
To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These are the words of the One who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What He opens, no one will shut; and what He shuts, no one will open.

Job 12:14
What He tears down cannot be rebuilt; the man He imprisons cannot be released.

Isaiah 7:2
When it became known to the house of David that Aram was in league with Ephraim, the hearts of Ahaz and his people trembled like trees in the forest shaken by the wind.

Isaiah 7:13
Then Isaiah said, "Hear now, O house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you try the patience of my God as well?

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

If we can just  look at the  big picture that   the LORD JESUS CHRIST  /  SEED/WORD has been scattered throughout time and place as an anointing of GODS WISDOM   throughout   this world  and in everything always  and is being  gathered and  placed by GOD HIMSELF   as  to being  completed  by Him in   His own judgments  and desires   , we can rest in that work  of GOD as a perfect working  being done  .  the WORD JUDGES US ALL   BY HIS SPIRIT OF LIFE .
Everyone everywhere  being born of flesh and blood  was  already destined to die  in ways   that we do not know how  it is  going to end   for  us /them  , all etc.,, but those whom were called  out and  given  some of His Wisdom  to know   this peace   that even surpasses all  understanding it , knows it is a perfect work and we  rest in that very hope of   GODS glory  yet to be reveled to us    and in us and for HIM   THAT WILL  EVER BE WITH THE LORD   as  building an eternal dwelling place that cannot fail or even be  scattered again  , but whole and complete  and  perfect in the will / DESIRE of GODS DOING  and will never be ashamed  because they have been given the grace and truth of GODS WISDOM to totally trust in  this  working of the Holy Spirit   to the end .

Spiritual Wisdom
...14The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone's judgment. 16"For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ....

Proverbs 28:5
Evil men do not understand justice, but those who seek the LORD comprehend fully.

1 Corinthians 3:1
Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual, but as worldly--as infants in Christ.

1 Corinthians 14:37
If anyone considers himself a prophet or spiritual person, let him acknowledge that what I am writing you is the Lord's command.38 But if anyone ignores this, he himself will be ignored.

39So, my brothers, be eager to prophesy and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything must be done in a proper and orderly manner.

Galatians 6:1
Brothers, if someone is caught in a trespass, you who are spiritual should restore him with a spirit of gentleness. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.

1 John 2:20
You, however, have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.


GODS LOVE WILL NOT  fail a one of us   ever ...  we can bank on this  eternal hope of glory being made known as the Light is ever increasing  as the DAY IS HERE  , as the darkness is being swallowed up in victory  over the death /last enemy  to comprehend   ,  we just have to  comprehend it  fully   with GODS  HOLY SPIRIT doing the works in us all  .

com·pre·hend
ˌkämprəˈhend/Submit
verb
1.
grasp mentally; understand.
"he couldn't comprehend her reasons for marrying Lovat"
synonyms:   understand, grasp, take in, see, apprehend, follow, make sense of, fathom, get to the bottom of; More
2.
formal
include, comprise, or encompass.
"a divine order comprehending all men"
synonyms:   comprise, include, encompass, embrace, involve, contain
"a divine order comprehending all men"


  John 1 The Beginning
(Genesis 1:1-2)

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2He was with God in the beginning.

3Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.

4In Him was life, and that life was the light of men.


5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome/comprehend  it.

    For me and my   two cents  , we have to overcome/comprehend  the  carnal mind /beastly  temporal  and earthly  wisdom  / loose it   ,   with the mind of Christ  , that anointing of the Holy Spirit  , will   make the way  of LIGHT AND LIFE   ever increasing  , hold it , keep it ,  embrace it    and knowing    the  desire of God    that none should perish    and  is without end  .
For me ,at now   LOVE is not always appearing as some sweet and gooey,  lovey dovey   push over , but quite the opposite  , it can seem cruel and    truth can be  so  brutal  without taking  ANY  offense  , Look at the cross  of the LORD JESUS CHRIST

To the world it seems so weak and beggarly  with no fear of GOD in it , How many hardened  hearted men[because of sin and error.  missing the mark of the higher calling to rise up in Christ ] have said  it over the many thousands of years    whom have even bothered to consider it . What kind of God would do this to His  own Son ?


Not even comprehending  it was done for them !! In their own pride and stupidity and deep darkness and ignorance  in their sin nature was being forgiven  them  even than !  .
God is kind to the unthankful and ungrateful    and hatful  , full of death and violence  that have opposed him  as their sins /demonic influences rose up to exalt  themselves over GODS GLORY    , not even knowing they would have no power at all  if it were not given to them from above ! .  Being  brought down low   as every knee will bow and the tongue will confess   the LORD JESUS CHRIST      will be their end  of reign and terror  against Gods  desire ...

:HeartThrob:

[CST]

On the main point we are discussing 'Lex Talionis'  and Christ's reinterpretation of it people seem to be very quick to take this premise literally

The law is not to be taken literally but to define justice which in order to be properly just must be delivered by maintaining as much as possible perspective and proportion, something people tend to be increasingly willing to abandon screaming for increasing degrees of punishment and increasing rates after they hear about the incident.

Jesus' counter examples are built in the same mode to encourage response according to virtues such as patience. Jesus isn't literally asking anyone anyone, upon being struck on one cheek to present the other one as if to say 'go on, I dare you' because they'll probably take to up on it. Jesus is interpreting that the original law would be 'if they strike your left cheek you can strike there's back'. This causes escalation of both hostility and suffering and Jesus is using a hyperbole to dissuade people from doing this.

These are not instructions of things you're actually meant to do, they are hyperbolas used to make a point about merciful and virtuous behaviour.

These parts I quoted were the most helpful to me. Thanks for the perspective.

Thanks, for the edit. Now i just need to learn how to do this before I post.

I think, in response to the original question, Jesus is saying something very revolutionary. He is saying do not fight aggression with more aggression, but oppose it with love.

That would also suggest that He was also explaining that, despite certain ideas of the Messiah, He was not going to try and liberate the Jews from their Roman occupiers, however much they may hope and expect their Messiah to do this.

I like the rest of you post too but felt only this invited extended comment.

Honestly  if you  are  even  called of God out of the world   for a certain purpose  , the world is going to hate you .
  This is  going  to be hard to get used to  , because it goes against the grain  , the world Is FULL  OF CARNAL MANKIND!!  as well also   we can fall down into the ways of worldly thinking also  , it is falling from   truth and grace   and back down into death again  in my opinion , a stumble  in pride of life ..  so how to stay spiritual  in a carnal world ?  stay humble and kind  , but also be as wise as a serpent but as harmless as a dove ...    this is  our cross to bear  also  following Jesus example  and testimony /witness ..

Impossible for me to get used to, world hates me and I'm clearly not called to any purpose. I also don't see the purpose of anything which is predefined as futile which is what it means to say the world will reject what we do. That means we can only ever preach to the converted which is pointless. The only other purpose would be to condemn the world anew and so far as I can tell it does that perfectly well without our interference.

[rosered]

On the main point we are discussing 'Lex Talionis'  and Christ's reinterpretation of it people seem to be very quick to take this premise literally

The law is not to be taken literally but to define justice which in order to be properly just must be delivered by maintaining as much as possible perspective and proportion, something people tend to be increasingly willing to abandon screaming for increasing degrees of punishment and increasing rates after they hear about the incident.

Jesus' counter examples are built in the same mode to encourage response according to virtues such as patience. Jesus isn't literally asking anyone anyone, upon being struck on one cheek to present the other one as if to say 'go on, I dare you' because they'll probably take to up on it. Jesus is interpreting that the original law would be 'if they strike your left cheek you can strike there's back'. This causes escalation of both hostility and suffering and Jesus is using a hyperbole to dissuade people from doing this.

These are not instructions of things you're actually meant to do, they are hyperbolas used to make a point about merciful and virtuous behaviour.

These parts I quoted were the most helpful to me. Thanks for the perspective.

Thanks, for the edit. Now i just need to learn how to do this before I post.

I think, in response to the original question, Jesus is saying something very revolutionary. He is saying do not fight aggression with more aggression, but oppose it with love.

That would also suggest that He was also explaining that, despite certain ideas of the Messiah, He was not going to try and liberate the Jews from their Roman occupiers, however much they may hope and expect their Messiah to do this.

I like the rest of you post too but felt only this invited extended comment.

Honestly  if you  are  even  called of God out of the world   for a certain purpose  , the world is going to hate you .
  This is  going  to be hard to get used to  , because it goes against the grain  , the world Is FULL  OF CARNAL MANKIND!!  as well also   we can fall down into the ways of worldly thinking also  , it is falling from   truth and grace   and back down into death again  in my opinion , a stumble  in pride of life ..  so how to stay spiritual  in a carnal world ?  stay humble and kind  , but also be as wise as a serpent but as harmless as a dove ...    this is  our cross to bear  also  following Jesus example  and testimony /witness ..

Impossible for me to get used to, world hates me and I'm clearly not called to any purpose. I also don't see the purpose of anything which is predefined as futile which is what it means to say the world will reject what we do. That means we can only ever preach to the converted which is pointless. The only other purpose would be to condemn the world anew and so far as I can tell it does that perfectly well without our interference.

   We are all carnal sold under sin nature   ,   This is  what is so beautiful about God !!! none  is exempt ... no one is going to boast about   how great they are !!!!  but HOW GREAT GOD IS !!

Born again as a spiritual creature is also Gods work , not of our own .

it is just easier to accept everything as Gods Will / desire  and just quit striving against God  in our sinful nature and being awakened to a new nature that is pleasing to God but the world will oppose it   , even call it weak or even  mistake your kindness for stupidity  and abuse your  loving heart ..

  the world will hate you

  here is some plain english John 15:18-25  (NIV)
The World Hates the Disciples   those called out of the world   , this applies to anyone   seeking the LORD in my opinion .


18 "If the world hates you,keep in mind that it hated me first.

19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own.


As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world.


That is why the world hates you.

20 Remember what I told you: 'A servant is not greater than his master.'

If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.


21 They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me.

22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.


23 Whoever hates me hates my Father as well. :sigh:


24 If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin.

As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father.


25 But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: 'They hated me without reason.

I can see this as the TRUTH  , if the truth sets you free you are wise  , but if you hate the truth  you will be offended  over the truth    you HATE THE TRUTH

ever learning and never come to the knowledge of the truth  , there experiences  only make the worse not for the better , puffed up and self righteous.............. when you are belonging to   the LORD JESUS CHRIST  and have the same testimony  and witness  working in you  they also will hate your words and deeds  also..

Evil in the Last Days
...6They are the kind who worm their way into households and captivate vulnerable women who are weighed down with sins and led astray by various passions,


7always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Example  , and same for you as well ..
8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth. They are depraved in mind and disqualified from the faith....


1 Timothy 2:4
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Timothy 2:25
He must gently reprove those who oppose him, in the hope that God may grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth.


  the truth   like a sharp sword   with a very sharp point  pops  our  proud egos  , making them  deflate like a hot air balloon   

   this  to me is How Jesus always drawed out the evil in  mankind  with the truth     exposing their  anger  HATE  /sin nature  and making them realize  that they  need salvation  from GOD  just as much as  all those they oppose  !!  the WORD OF TRUTH judges us all  according to the same measure we  measure out  to others   we ourselves are judged by this SAME WORD dispense or allot justice, a punishment, or harsh treatment.   Mercy is given to those whom show mercy and judgment upon those whom  show  judgement ....  Moses law was about exposing sin and nakedness  ,  Jesus  is all about covering  it  in love and mercy and grace .

Matt 23 ...11The greatest among you shall be your servant.

12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

13Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let in those who wish to enter  come in either ....
 
  Matt 23   is pretty heavy  on what NOT to do   when opposing the truth  , we are going to be  crushed by  the rock solid  truth  of the matter .
  May God  have mercy on us all  at this time  as we also show mercy  to those that oppose     the truth  working in us ... :HeartThrob:

[jugghead]

for me, it is like language itself

In other words ..... "I am what I speak"

If words of the law come out of my mouth, then I am law
If words of judgment come out of my mouth, then I am judgment
If words of Grace come out of mouth, then I am Grace
If words of Love come out of my moth, then I am Love
If words of Comfort come out of my mouth, then I am Comfort

For me, to turn the other cheek means; do not speak out of the cheek that is in pain, speak out of the cheek that has no pain

:2c:

[GodIsLove]

Question:

Yes Jesus was hated, mostly by the religious leaders. But he was also surrounded by crowds of people for most of his ministry right? Palm Sunday just before he died he was well received by the masses.

Are we really to be hated by a lot of people, or just the religious establishment like Jesus was?

And what about truly evil people who actually ARE hated by the masses..Like Hitler.  ALL religions and atheists can agree to "hate" him.  This doesn't mean that somehow because the world hates him he is Christ-like. Sometimes the world abhorrs evil and they are right.

So when Christians say the world hates them like the world hated  Jesus, sometimes they don't realize things they are doing to provoke hatred, such as being judgemental or hateful themselves.

Therefore how do we know if the world hating us is a good thing or not?

Also, I'm not gonna lie, I don't think a lot of people hate me. Does this mean I'm doing something wrong? Now people don't agree with my theology, but that is different.

Just some thoughts that came to mind.

[GodIsLove]

for me, it is like language itself

In other words ..... "I am what I speak"

If words of the law come out of my mouth, then I am law
If words of judgment come out of my mouth, then I am judgment
If words of Grace come out of mouth, then I am Grace
If words of Love come out of my moth, then I am Love
If words of Comfort come out of my mouth, then I am Comfort

For me, to turn the other cheek means; do not speak out of the cheek that is in pain, speak out of the cheek that has no pain

:2c:

Cool. I like it.

Don't dwell on your pain/hurt and instead turn to your strength (God) and show love?

[rosered]

for me, it is like language itself

In other words ..... "I am what I speak"

If words of the law come out of my mouth, then I am law
If words of judgment come out of my mouth, then I am judgment
If words of Grace come out of mouth, then I am Grace
If words of Love come out of my moth, then I am Love
If words of Comfort come out of my mouth, then I am Comfort

For me, to turn the other cheek means; do not speak out of the cheek that is in pain, speak out of the cheek that has no pain

:2c:

Cool. I like it.

Don't dwell on your pain/hurt and instead turn to your strength (God) and show love?

  TRUTH !! :HeartThrob:

[rosered]

Question:

Yes Jesus was hated, mostly by the religious leaders. But he was also surrounded by crowds of people for most of his ministry right? Palm Sunday just before he died he was well received by the masses.

Are we really to be hated by a lot of people, or just the religious establishment like Jesus was?

And what about truly evil people who actually ARE hated by the masses..Like Hitler.  ALL religions and atheists can agree to "hate" him.  This doesn't mean that somehow because the world hates him he is Christ-like. Sometimes the world abhorrs evil and they are right.

So when Christians say the world hates them like the world hated  Jesus, sometimes they don't realize things they are doing to provoke hatred, such as being judgemental or hateful themselves.

Therefore how do we know if the world hating us is a good thing or not?

Also, I'm not gonna lie, I don't think a lot of people hate me. Does this mean I'm doing something wrong? Now people don't agree with my theology, but that is different.

Just some thoughts that came to mind.

Jesus COMES as  the light of the world and many desired to put that light out . in my humbled opinion .They do not want the light to expose their evil hearts .

   I agree with you mostly it is those "control freak " types   that DO take advantage .  They love the darkness and despise the the Truth .  the Truth offends them  , they see no wrong doing .  they make excuses for themselves .

  When you do not let them manipulate you  and use you  and control you   for their selfish desires  any longer  , they grow to hate you  , if they cannot control you with empty  flatteries   any  longer  and they sure did oppose Jesus  because He did not do those miracles/healing  for their advantage  , To hear the Spirit of Life speaking to them , See Jesus and a heart to understand  the Love of God  and did do that  before them  but not  to them .but stopped listening  only to growl at him and call Him evil  for doing good works among the  crowds !!! .
  He let them be  and even escaped from their sight .

So they stayed in the darkness and ignorance of their own  doings .  I believe they were very jealous  of Jesus Light of Life .

They wanted to BE JESUS  and not Like Jesus .

I see them types as dead while they are living , because the curse seems to be in a constant state of want and need and  nakedness  ,and  they are never content .

  They try to appear as righteous before everyone , but they are never satisfied , they murmur and complain about everything and everyone  and use  everyone  and everything as they are entitled .

  They are bitter  , just like the children of the wilderness  were , not a one  come out of that alive  and how God  made a 3 days journey 40 years  long and they still could not  repent of their doings and be sincerely thankful to GOD  but opposed Him in every little thing .How  can you help  someone whom will not accept the truth to be changed ? but becomes offended by Truth ?.  they never loved the truth but hate the truth and cannot be set free  with that kind of  mindset .

  You begin to see the pattern they do love darkness more than the Light  because their  deeds are evil  . They love walking in the flesh and not in the Spirit of Life .  They desire to use Jesus  in  name only   to also take advantage  of the poor in spirit , not realizing they are  in exactly the same  way or even worse  they have the mark of the beast mentality , hunt , kill and destroy  the weaker ones to fatten themselves up.

I 100% agree with you we are to hate  all forms of evil , Paul  gave us some real insight   in Romans 7 and 8

  when He told us  their is no good thing in our flesh , so quit depending on it  for anything  good to come from it , it is judged already as worthless  and to thank God for the Lord Jesus Christ  to deliver him from the body of death

Having the mind of Christ would get him to where he needed to be , but would have to wait on the LORD to complete him fully .

[CST]

We are all carnal sold under sin nature   ,   This is  what is so beautiful about God !!! none  is exempt ... no one is going to boast about   how great they are !!!!  but HOW GREAT GOD IS !!

Hmm, part of faith is that there is sometimes doubt. So, Rose, I now ask you did it ever cross you're mind that if we, the claimed crown of creation, are nothing to boast about than that makes us a pretty poor advert for the God who made that creation? It certainly occurred to me and, if I've read them right, it's also occurred to almost endless numbers of atheists. If we can't boast about ourselves because there's really nothing to boast about, can God? And if He can't doesn't that spectacularly reduce the apparent greatness of God that the race that is made in God's image is such an appalling representation of that God. Atheists certainly think so.

Christ's point is based on the fact that He is God and the 'World' refers to the human capacity to reject God because they see Him at best an inconvenience or worse a threat to everything we want to do. God who's just a spoil port who just appears whenever He fancies tells us off harshly for not doing what He would have us do even though we were enjoying it than vanishes again until the cycle repeats. This is generally how people see God and why they reject God and why they will tend to reject us if we come in His name.

Question:

Yes Jesus was hated, mostly by the religious leaders. But he was also surrounded by crowds of people for most of his ministry right? Palm Sunday just before he died he was well received by the masses.

Are we really to be hated by a lot of people, or just the religious establishment like Jesus was?

And what about truly evil people who actually ARE hated by the masses..Like Hitler.  ALL religions and atheists can agree to "hate" him.  This doesn't mean that somehow because the world hates him he is Christ-like. Sometimes the world abhorrs evil and they are right.

So when Christians say the world hates them like the world hated  Jesus, sometimes they don't realize things they are doing to provoke hatred, such as being judgemental or hateful themselves.

Therefore how do we know if the world hating us is a good thing or not?

Also, I'm not gonna lie, I don't think a lot of people hate me. Does this mean I'm doing something wrong? Now people don't agree with my theology, but that is different.

Just some thoughts that came to mind.

Quite, but there are some good points here and some less good ones.

Jesus was accepted by many people but not necessarily on account of His Messiahship. Today we have a cavalcade of celebrities flooding our airwaves who we can accept and reject as easily as they rejected Jesus. And they did reject Jesus, the Bible is quite clear on this.

A week after Jesus arrived triumphantly in Jerusalem as you described He was arrested and despite the fact it is recorded that Pilate found Him guilty of nothing they demanded the release of a murderer, the ironically named Barrabas, in violation of the covenant which says all murderers must die, and demanded Jesus' crucifixion.

This is the very point of sin that people are this fickle, they were made, through various mechanisms to accept the conclusion of those leaders and justices. They found Jesus guilty, he must be guilty. He wasn't but they can justify the idea quite easily. They are guilty of rejecting Jesus the Bible is quite clear of this although subsequent generations have misapplied the judgements made here.

As for Hitler, yes we all think he's an evil monster but that's the lesson of history. He was accepted in his day that was how he because so powerful as to lead us all into WWII. He took control of Germany illegally but he had huge support from people in his country which enabled his atrocities which is why we hate him. Even neighboring nations ignored his unjust invasions almost until it was to late. The principle under which Hitler was accepted is simply to how Jesus was crucified.

But I certainly agree that the claim of Jesus that the world will hate us can be used to justify anything and resist reforming the church. If the world objects and resists they just say 'Yeah, Jesus warned us they'd do that.' and invalidate any arguments their opponents make.

[Dandelion]

Just a few thoughts.......

When Jesus said that 'the world will hate you' I don't think that that always translates into individuals 'attacking' us.

The world, I think, represents the way people look at what is permissible, appealing, comfortable, acceptable, exciting, desirable, and so on. More that actually attack Christians, though, that happens, too, is that they think us simple minded, fools, backwards, and so on. They might dismiss what we have to say, or not want us to hang around in their 'crowd'. Many people who call themselves Christians, might be the first ones to do this to us.

I think we have to keep in mind, that to truly be a Christian, is to be radically opposed to the way this world carries out 'business, as usual'. It might well be done in a quiet way, but there is much disdain for a Christian who speaks their mind, and lives the life of a follower of Christ.

I am not generally hated, but I am definitely looked upon as a fringe person of society. The people do not think enough of me to actually actively hate me......I am not important enough for them to even think to hate me. I say and do things that are not popular.
I am laughed at behind my back, I am sure......even by some who are supposedly friends. I do not spend my extra time trying to accumulate a lot of wealth, vacationing, doing cool, but expensive things, and so on. I spend my free time with friends and family and doing ministry events and one to one assisting to some people in need. I have a godson, whose father is in and out of jail, and is being raised by his grandparents. I spend time with this sweet little boy, so he has more people surrounding him with love. Just one example.....
Many people do not understand this kind of a life.......they think I am wasting my time, and take chances with having to sacrifice too much for others, who to them, are not my concern.

Another example.....I come from a family of alcoholics, and at a very young age, chose not to drink alcohol. I am not invited places, often, partially, at least, because of this. I am not 'cool'. I don't use bad language.....not 'cool'. I don't wear tight or provocative clothing....not 'cool'. I did not allow my children to do some of the things other children were allowed to do, at the time. Not 'cool'.

My family criticized me for overseeing an elderly, mentally ill aunt of mine, who was also a lesbian. They told me to forget about her. They told me to allow my mother to die, because she needed a feeding tube. I actually got her to be able to eat, again, for the time she was with me, after she had had a stroke.

It goes on. I am sure you get the point.

I don't want you to think I judge people who do things differently than I do. I try to listen to what Jesus asks of me, and I let Him decide what is good and permissible for others.

But, I take heart. Fear not, Jesus said, I have conquered the world.

He thinks I am very 'cool'!           :girlheart:

D.


I just want to add here, sorry for sounding so darn self-righteous. I must have written this late at night, or in a hurry. Sometimes I just 'run my mouth' and then am horrified at how it sounds later. Forgive me.

[GodIsLove]

Just a few thoughts.......

When Jesus said that 'the world will hate you' I don't think that that always translates into individuals 'attacking' us.

The world, I think, represents the way people look at what is permissible, appealing, comfortable, acceptable, exciting, desirable, and so on. More that actually attack Christians, though, that happens, too, is that they think us simple minded, fools, backwards, and so on. They might dismiss what we have to say, or not want us to hang around in their 'crowd'. Many people who call themselves Christians, might be the first ones to do this to us.

I think we have to keep in mind, that to truly be a Christian, is to be radically opposed to the way this world carries out 'business, as usual'. It might well be done in a quiet way, but there is much disdain for a Christian who speaks their mind, and lives the life of a follower of Christ.

I am not generally hated, but I am definitely looked upon as a fringe person of society. The people do not think enough of me to actually actively hate me......I am not important enough for them to even think to hate me. I say and do things that are not popular.
I am laughed at behind my back, I am sure......even by some who are supposedly friends. I do not spend my extra time trying to accumulate a lot of wealth, vacationing, doing cool, but expensive things, and so on. I spend my free time with friends and family and doing ministry events and one to one assisting to some people in need. I have a godson, whose father is in and out of jail, and is being raised by his grandparents. I spend time with this sweet little boy, so he has more people surrounding him with love. Just one example.....
Many people do not understand this kind of a life.......they think I am wasting my time, and take chances with having to sacrifice too much for others, who to them, are not my concern.

Another example.....I come from a family of alcoholics, and at a very young age, chose not to drink alcohol. I am not invited places, often, partially, at least, because of this. I am not 'cool'. I don't use bad language.....not 'cool'. I don't wear tight or provocative clothing....not 'cool'. I did not allow my children to do some of the things other children were allowed to do, at the time. Not 'cool'.

My family criticized me for overseeing an elderly, mentally ill aunt of mine, who was also a lesbian. They told me to forget about her. They told me to allow my mother to die, because she needed a feeding tube. I actually got her to be able to eat, again, for the time she was with me, after she had had a stroke.

It goes on. I am sure you get the point.

I don't want you to think I judge people who do things differently than I do. I try to listen to what Jesus asks of me, and I let Him decide what is good and permissible for others.

But, I take heart. Fear not, Jesus said, I have conquered the world.

He thinks I am very 'cool'!           :girlheart:

D.

Loved that, Dandelion.

I guess where I live there are a lot of hippies that I'm friends with who culturally have a lot in common with Christians (pacifist, don't let their kids watch junk on TV, not materialistic, dress  modestly, homeschool—though I don't—-volunteer, want to help the poor). This skews my perception maybe, because I'm surrounded by non Christians who understand much of the Christian message. I am like you and come from a family of alcoholics but they seem to accept me though I don't drink at all. My in-laws think I'm odd I think but the also accept me. I see that I do things differently from other parents of kids at my children's school but I've also found some non Christians that I can relate to as well.

I guess people who would hate me are not in my life so I don't feel persecuted. I feel a lack of communion with people with like minded beliefs in life but not hate. I agree people often hate Christians but when people tell me why they are against Christians it is things like they feel the Christians are judgmental, self righteous, hateful. And some are. Ghandi was quoted as saying something like he likes Christ but not Christians.

I agree if people believe in love and forgiveness and praying for enemies and that kind of thing, non Christians and Christians alike have expressed an inability to do that and thinking it is naive. One friend told me she found out a family she likes is Christian and was surprised because this person has a negative view of Christians but this family shook her opposition to Christians. I then told her I am Christian and I think I helped to show her a different side of Christianity as well.

Another Jewish agnostic friend I have doesn't agree with my beliefs but her husband is a Christian universalist. She and I love each other like sisters even if we don't see eye to eye.

Christians disagree with my theology but they still remain in my life and some I'm very close with.

Yes the selfish and arrogant will hate us, but they hate most everyone except themselves.

I'm just trying to see this from different angles, thanks for the input!

[GodIsLove]

We are all carnal sold under sin nature   ,   This is  what is so beautiful about God !!! none  is exempt ... no one is going to boast about   how great they are !!!!  but HOW GREAT GOD IS !!

Hmm, part of faith is that there is sometimes doubt. So, Rose, I now ask you did it ever cross you're mind that if we, the claimed crown of creation, are nothing to boast about than that makes us a pretty poor advert for the God who made that creation? It certainly occurred to me and, if I've read them right, it's also occurred to almost endless numbers of atheists. If we can't boast about ourselves because there's really nothing to boast about, can God? And if He can't doesn't that spectacularly reduce the apparent greatness of God that the race that is made in God's image is such an appalling representation of that God. Atheists certainly think so.

Christ's point is based on the fact that He is God and the 'World' refers to the human capacity to reject God because they see Him at best an inconvenience or worse a threat to everything we want to do. God who's just a spoil port who just appears whenever He fancies tells us off harshly for not doing what He would have us do even though we were enjoying it than vanishes again until the cycle repeats. This is generally how people see God and why they reject God and why they will tend to reject us if we come in His name.

Question:

Yes Jesus was hated, mostly by the religious leaders. But he was also surrounded by crowds of people for most of his ministry right? Palm Sunday just before he died he was well received by the masses.

Are we really to be hated by a lot of people, or just the religious establishment like Jesus was?

And what about truly evil people who actually ARE hated by the masses..Like Hitler.  ALL religions and atheists can agree to "hate" him.  This doesn't mean that somehow because the world hates him he is Christ-like. Sometimes the world abhorrs evil and they are right.

So when Christians say the world hates them like the world hated  Jesus, sometimes they don't realize things they are doing to provoke hatred, such as being judgemental or hateful themselves.

Therefore how do we know if the world hating us is a good thing or not?

Also, I'm not gonna lie, I don't think a lot of people hate me. Does this mean I'm doing something wrong? Now people don't agree with my theology, but that is different.

Just some thoughts that came to mind.

Quite, but there are some good points here and some less good ones.

Jesus was accepted by many people but not necessarily on account of His Messiahship. Today we have a cavalcade of celebrities flooding our airwaves who we can accept and reject as easily as they rejected Jesus. And they did reject Jesus, the Bible is quite clear on this.

A week after Jesus arrived triumphantly in Jerusalem as you described He was arrested and despite the fact it is recorded that Pilate found Him guilty of nothing they demanded the release of a murderer, the ironically named Barrabas, in violation of the covenant which says all murderers must die, and demanded Jesus' crucifixion.

This is the very point of sin that people are this fickle, they were made, through various mechanisms to accept the conclusion of those leaders and justices. They found Jesus guilty, he must be guilty. He wasn't but they can justify the idea quite easily. They are guilty of rejecting Jesus the Bible is quite clear of this although subsequent generations have misapplied the judgements made here.

As for Hitler, yes we all think he's an evil monster but that's the lesson of history. He was accepted in his day that was how he because so powerful as to lead us all into WWII. He took control of Germany illegally but he had huge support from people in his country which enabled his atrocities which is why we hate him. Even neighboring nations ignored his unjust invasions almost until it was to late. The principle under which Hitler was accepted is simply to how Jesus was crucified.

But I certainly agree that the claim of Jesus that the world will hate us can be used to justify anything and resist reforming the church. If the world objects and resists they just say 'Yeah, Jesus warned us they'd do that.' and invalidate any arguments their opponents make.

Ok, you are right in that Jesus was hated as well as loved and that representing sin being fickle is a good line, I like it.

And yes Hitler has lots of followers or else he wouldn't have been able to carry out what he did.

Your first part to Rose about not being able to boast because we are such a terrible creation, and wouldn't that reflect on God as being a poor creator has me thinking. More on that later if I have a moment to type.