You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'h 39But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
How are we to actually live this out?
Does Jesus's teachings allow for self defense or violence/killing in war?
I would tend to say that the Old Testament does but Jesus's teachings don't.
So again, how do we live this out?
On violence/killing in war, let me ask you one question. Is doing these things loving your enemy? Of course, we only have to "agape" them, and not even with all our heart, soul, strength, and mind. That is only to God. We also do not Phileo our enemy, but this does not make way for killing them, right?
I used to think that self defence was allowed, but recently, not so much anymore.
Mat 26:52
52Then saith Jesus to him, 'Turn back thy sword to its place; for all who did take the sword, by the sword shall perish
Just ask, in Faith, what to do. If you are not doing anything in Faith, that is sinning, correct? If He leads you one way, go that way. If He leads another, go there. If someone is led someway different than you, don't think, if you truly are in Faith, that you are sinning. We all end up in the same place, but not all in the same way.
War is one of the worst horrors, but also Jesus said He didn't come to bring peace (yet) but a sword.. like in the case of Hitler.. the u.s. many say now, looking back, should have gotten into the war sooner! And had they not altogether, Hitler may have gained domination, perhaps eventually global.
If I were king (or government) I can turn my cheek to those who slap or insult me, etc. but is it righteous to let warriors come in and kill the people? Or enslave them..
There's many views on this, and pacifism is the dream of us all.. but I think "flaw" as opposed to God's perfection and perfect will, is limitless in potential, and part of that is oppression and great cruelties.
I kind of think of it as like a huge bully.. if the bully is allowed to carry out his will without challenge, the bullying is likely to get worse and worse.. we can pray.. but if he's beating up others especially smaller than him, etc.. it's kind of like telling a hungry person.. goodbye, be well I will pray for you but we give them no food..
But still, war is one of the very greatest of horrors.. (red horse? & pale horse w/ the [mass] grave?) Yet with all its horrors, of letting this flawed/imperfection run its course proving truth, I think His blueprint and finished product is SO good, it's worth it..
p.s., Partly why the league of nations was envisioned (first by u.s. Pres. Wilson) was to protect smaller, more defenseless nations against stronger, aggressive nations (bent on, for some reason, domination. Of course it expired when the u.s. debating the issue, didn't sign on after all, but then after the (horrific fiery) bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it was rebuilt as the United Nations.. Trying to prevent the bullies.. international.. (But doesn't, to me, seem to be the vision or goal now though! Except to see Israel and the U.S. as bullies.. oy..)
Quote from: marie glen on June 05, 2018, 06:42:38 PM
War is one of the worst horrors, but also Jesus said He didn't come to bring peace (yet) but a sword.. like in the case of Hitler.. the u.s. many say now, looking back, should have gotten into the war sooner! And had they not altogether, Hitler may have gained domination, perhaps eventually global.
If I were king (or government) I can turn my cheek to those who slap or insult me, etc. but is it righteous to let warriors come in and kill the people? Or enslave them..
There's many views on this, and pacifism is the dream of us all..
Yes, I am a pacifist in hope. Also believe nations should be unless sure they are protecting innocents and helpless. Then do what needs to be done. Also, seek to be a pacifist in personal matters such as insult, or even "simple" assault. Treat me poorly, usually fail miserably, but my ideal is to turn the other cheek. Forgive, do not repay evil with evil. But when it comes to life and limb, including protection of other innocents - and
especially my family - I say with God's help - don't mess with them. I have legal carry, and would use it if need be. I personally feel it's a person's responsibility to protect the innocent, and have hindered respect for any individual who is able to do otherwise but would stand by and watch his family be abused, molested, even killed, without doing whatever is necessary to protect them. I've pondered this issue for some years, but unless God ever clearly tells me otherwise, I trust Him for protection, but pray He provides the means and guidance for true aim, enough nerve, etc., if ever the situation arose. :2c:
:2c:following Christ and picking up our cross..we are going to bear insults[slapped cheek]hopefully with grace.also suffer loss
of material possessions, force also will be used against the faithful at times. And even with this we are to continue to give of our
substance to our fellow man in need.
Now,in case the persecuting gets too 'hot' we are allowed to 'flee' elsewhere...but..may come a time
when you are actually put to death for your faith.The 'prince of this world" may very well use any or all of these things to'sift'us.
BUT NOT UNLESS IT IS GOD'S WILL WE BE TRIED IN THIS MANNER. We can pray'that a particular cup" may not be asked of us..
say,seeing our family slaughtered..but it is ultimately up to His will..how far and how much of evil we may be tried of.
He did not promise us a 'cushy'garden of eden "life here..
but we are told we will have 'trouble' here.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on June 05, 2018, 05:19:41 PM
On violence/killing in war, let me ask you one question. Is doing these things loving your enemy? Of course, we only have to "agape" them, and not even with all our heart, soul, strength, and mind. That is only to God. We also do not Phileo our enemy, but this does not make way for killing them, right?
I used to think that self defence was allowed, but recently, not so much anymore.
Mat 26:52
52Then saith Jesus to him, 'Turn back thy sword to its place; for all who did take the sword, by the sword shall perish
Just ask, in Faith, what to do. If you are not doing anything in Faith, that is sinning, correct? If He leads you one way, go that way. If He leads another, go there. If someone is led someway different than you, don't think, if you truly are in Faith, that you are sinning. We all end up in the same place, but not all in the same way.
I would agree that Jesus' teaching seems to be extreme and not include self defense.
Would you personally be able to practice that?
Is there a difference between self defense and defending another innocent, such as if u witness someone attacking a child? Or is this nonviolence all the way?
Do we teach our children to allow bullies to beat them up without resisting?
OR is the teaching to be looked at or interpreted in another way, such as not to seek retribution for wrongs. Eye for an eye was in the OT as a law of balancing wrongs with an equal retribution. Is this passage saying don't try to do something to "get even"?
Quote from: marie glen on June 05, 2018, 06:42:38 PM
War is one of the worst horrors, but also Jesus said He didn't come to bring peace (yet) but a sword.. like in the case of Hitler.. the u.s. many say now, looking back, should have gotten into the war sooner! And had they not altogether, Hitler may have gained domination, perhaps eventually global.
If I were king (or government) I can turn my cheek to those who slap or insult me, etc. but is it righteous to let warriors come in and kill the people? Or enslave them..
There's many views on this, and pacifism is the dream of us all.. but I think "flaw" as opposed to God's perfection and perfect will, is limitless in potential, and part of that is oppression and great cruelties.
I kind of think of it as like a huge bully.. if the bully is allowed to carry out his will without challenge, the bullying is likely to get worse and worse.. we can pray.. but if he's beating up others especially smaller than him, etc.. it's kind of like telling a hungry person.. goodbye, be well I will pray for you but we give them no food..
But still, war is one of the very greatest of horrors.. (red horse? & pale horse w/ the [mass] grave?) Yet with all its horrors, of letting this flawed/imperfection run its course proving truth, I think His blueprint and finished product is SO good, it's worth it..
p.s., Partly why the league of nations was envisioned (first by u.s. Pres. Wilson) was to protect smaller, more defenseless nations against stronger, aggressive nations (bent on, for some reason, domination. Of course it expired when the u.s. debating the issue, didn't sign on after all, but then after the (horrific fiery) bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it was rebuilt as the United Nations.. Trying to prevent the bullies.. international.. (But doesn't, to me, seem to be the vision or goal now though! Except to see Israel and the U.S. as bullies.. oy..)
I think the not peace but a sword refers to division, not violence right?
But, without basis in NT scripture, I do agree that I personally would find it hard or impossible to not defend innocents even if using violence to do so, such as your example of Hitler and the Nazis. I used to think I could carry out the turn the other cheek teachings, now I'm not so sure. I'm wondering if that is truly what is asked of us, or if this is just showing something else. Jesus did the ultimate turning the other cheek during his death and didn't resist or fight. And my earlier question to ML if this is more in line of not seeking retribution?
I teach my kids that eye for an eye used to be the law but now it isn't because two wrongs don't make a right...
But I have also told them if someone won't stop hurting them and they try to use words or walk awa and it doesn't work they can push or use some force. Is it unbiblical to teach this?
Quote from: GodIsLove on June 09, 2018, 03:32:10 PM
Quote from: marie glen on June 05, 2018, 06:42:38 PM
War is one of the worst horrors, but also Jesus said He didn't come to bring peace (yet) but a sword.. like in the case of Hitler.. the u.s. many say now, looking back, should have gotten into the war sooner! And had they not altogether, Hitler may have gained domination, perhaps eventually global.
If I were king (or government) I can turn my cheek to those who slap or insult me, etc. but is it righteous to let warriors come in and kill the people? Or enslave them..
There's many views on this, and pacifism is the dream of us all.. but I think "flaw" as opposed to God's perfection and perfect will, is limitless in potential, and part of that is oppression and great cruelties.
I kind of think of it as like a huge bully.. if the bully is allowed to carry out his will without challenge, the bullying is likely to get worse and worse.. we can pray.. but if he's beating up others especially smaller than him, etc.. it's kind of like telling a hungry person.. goodbye, be well I will pray for you but we give them no food..
But still, war is one of the very greatest of horrors.. (red horse? & pale horse w/ the [mass] grave?) Yet with all its horrors, of letting this flawed/imperfection run its course proving truth, I think His blueprint and finished product is SO good, it's worth it..
p.s., Partly why the league of nations was envisioned (first by u.s. Pres. Wilson) was to protect smaller, more defenseless nations against stronger, aggressive nations (bent on, for some reason, domination. Of course it expired when the u.s. debating the issue, didn't sign on after all, but then after the (horrific fiery) bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it was rebuilt as the United Nations.. Trying to prevent the bullies.. international.. (But doesn't, to me, seem to be the vision or goal now though! Except to see Israel and the U.S. as bullies.. oy..)
I think the not peace but a sword refers to division, not violence right?
But, without basis in NT scripture, I do agree that I personally would find it hard or impossible to not defend innocents even if using violence to do so, such as your example of Hitler and the Nazis. I used to think I could carry out the turn the other cheek teachings, now I'm not so sure. I'm wondering if that is truly what is asked of us, or if this is just showing something else. Jesus did the ultimate turning the other cheek during his death and didn't resist or fight. And my earlier question to ML if this is more in line of not seeking retribution?
I teach my kids that eye for an eye used to be the law but now it isn't because two wrongs don't make a right...
But I have also told them if someone won't stop hurting them and they try to use words or walk awa and it doesn't work they can push or use some force. Is it unbiblical to teach this?
Yes, Christ's point was that if your members of your natural family say wanted to remain faithful Palestinian Jews while you wanted to follow Jesus and wished for them to do the same if ever it can to a time between choosing them or choosing Jesus you were to choose Jesus. Jesus no doubt expected there were numerous possibilities for this to occur in all the families of the Earth because the world did not accept Him. "Any one who loves Father, Mother, Sister, Brother, etc more than me is not worthy of me. I'm not sure anyone is actually worthy of Jesus in fact I'm sure they're not but that's not the point here.
On the main point we are discussing 'Lex Talionis' and Christ's reinterpretation of it people seem to be very quick to take this premise literally.
Imagine if get into a fight with someone and in the process of this fight they injure you such that you lose your left eye. Taken literally you can now take their left eye to balance the books.
But now imagine they have already got no sight in their right eye. Taking their left eye will make them entirely blind while you are still sighted in one eye. Are we sure that's really balanced?
And how do you give people identical bruises or identical burns when such things form chaotically?
The law is not to be taken literally but to define justice which in order to be properly just must be delivered by maintaining as much as possible perspective and proportion, something people tend to be increasingly willing to abandon screaming for increasing degrees of punishment and increasing rates after they hear about the incident.
Jesus' counter examples are built in the same mode to encourage response according to virtues such as patience. Jesus isn't literally asking anyone anyone, upon being struck on one cheek to present the other one as if to say 'go on, I dare you' because they'll probably take to up on it. Jesus is interpreting that the original law would be 'if they strike your left cheek you can strike there's back'. This causes escalation of both hostility and suffering and Jesus is using a hyperbole to dissuade people from doing this.
If someone makes you go with them one mile they probably aren't about to go another mile and if you follow them around after that point you'll just become irksome at best and a stalker at worst and they fast may take unpleasant actions to get rid of you.
These are not instructions of things you're actually meant to do, they are hyperbolas used to make a point about merciful and virtuous behaviour.
Quote from: CST on June 09, 2018, 03:57:48 PM
On the main point we are discussing 'Lex Talionis' and Christ's reinterpretation of it people seem to be very quick to take this premise literally
The law is not to be taken literally but to define justice which in order to be properly just must be delivered by maintaining as much as possible perspective and proportion, something people tend to be increasingly willing to abandon screaming for increasing degrees of punishment and increasing rates after they hear about the incident.
Jesus' counter examples are built in the same mode to encourage response according to virtues such as patience. Jesus isn't literally asking anyone anyone, upon being struck on one cheek to present the other one as if to say 'go on, I dare you' because they'll probably take to up on it. Jesus is interpreting that the original law would be 'if they strike your left cheek you can strike there's back'. This causes escalation of both hostility and suffering and Jesus is using a hyperbole to dissuade people from doing this.
These are not instructions of things you're actually meant to do, they are hyperbolas used to make a point about merciful and virtuous behaviour.
These parts I quoted were the most helpful to me. Thanks for the perspective.
Proverbs 19;11....it is the glory of a man to overlook an insult[cheek slapped]how is this a man's glory? because God's character shines
through insuch instances.[love keeps no accountof theinjury] thus man exhibiting the image and likeness of God...thus..let us make
man in our image and likeness.Really,this is whatit's all about..God raising up man in His image andlikeness[His children]Notice,I did
not say it is man by his own works making himself into what he thinks God is like. It goes much deeper than any fleshly outward
appearance...this grand eternal/immortal creation of God..and the works of His hands. :2c: after allwe shall be just like him[Christ,
the very image of God] which is somewhat overwhelming and fills me with awe at the very prospect...of the GLORY THAT AWAITS
all the children in that ETERNAL Kingdom.
Quote from: sheila on June 10, 2018, 07:42:42 PM
Proverbs 19;11....it is the glory of a man to overlook an insult[cheek slapped]how is this a man's glory? because God's character shines
through insuch instances.[love keeps no accountof theinjury] thus man exhibiting the image and likeness of God...thus..let us make
man in our image and likeness.Really,this is whatit's all about..God raising up man in His image andlikeness[His children]Notice,I did
not say it is man by his own works making himself into what he thinks God is like. It goes much deeper than any fleshly outward
appearance...this grand eternal/immortal creation of God..and the works of His hands. :2c: after allwe shall be just like him[Christ,
the very image of God] which is somewhat overwhelming and fills me with awe at the very prospect...of the GLORY THAT AWAITS
all the children in that ETERNAL Kingdom.
KJV Psa_139:14
I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.KJV Isa_9:7
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
CLV Isa 9:7
To the increase of the chieftainship, and to the welfare shall be no end. On the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to prepare it, and to brace it with judgment and with justice, henceforth and in the future eon. The zeal of Yahweh of hosts will do this.
Rotherham Isa 9:7
Of the increase of dominion, and of prosperity, There shall be no end—Upon the throne of David and Upon his kingdom, By establishing it and By sustaining it, With justice and With righteousness,—From henceforth, Even unto times age-abiding: The jealousy of Yahweh of hosts, will perform this!
YLT Isa 9:7
To the increase of the princely power, And of peace, there is no end, On the throne of David, and on his kingdom, To establish it, and to support it, In judgment and in righteousness, Henceforth, even unto the age, The zeal of Jehovah of Hosts doth this.
Amen
I think, in response to the original question, Jesus is saying something very revolutionary. He is saying do not fight aggression with more aggression, but oppose it with love.
Darkness cannot change darkness......only light can do that.
I don't think he wants us to get killed in some dark alley, however. I don't believe that is his message.
He wants us to take an entirely different outlook and approach, however. It goes with the message of praying for one's enemies.
In God's Kingdom, there are no enemies....only brothers and sisters....even if some of them have a bad attitude issue. :rolllol:
D.
Quote from: Dandelion on June 11, 2018, 04:00:04 AMJesus is saying .. do not fight aggression with more aggression, but oppose it with love.
I don't think he wants us to get killed in some dark alley, however. I don't believe that is his message.
He wants us to take an entirely different outlook and approach, however. It goes with the message of praying for one's enemies.
:thumbsup:
Honestly if you are even called of God out of the world for a certain purpose , the world is going to hate you .
This is going to be hard to get used to , because it goes against the grain , the world Is FULL OF CARNAL MANKIND!! as well also we can fall down into the ways of worldly thinking also , it is falling from truth and grace and back down into death again in my opinion , a stumble in pride of life .. so how to stay spiritual in a carnal world ? stay humble and kind , but also be as wise as a serpent but as harmless as a dove ... this is our cross to bear also following Jesus example and testimony /witness ..
How does the spiritually new born survive the world without Gods protection ? But His all seeing eyes are on all the world continually. for me ,I begin to notice how the Word of GOD is worded !
Our biggest clues to me is found in Rev 12 when the manchild is born and is instantly sought to be devoured of the dragon in REV 12 I used to think this was Jesus Christ , being the firstborn , of many brethren ... but it is the pattern set of anyone born again of THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD though the WORD / Holy SEED , my understanding come for those whom held the testimony of Jesus Christ , so its not Jesus , but those in Christ , from the first to the last revelation / revealing truth from the beginning of the world even . But shown to us by the book of revelation , a kind of key that opens up all the scriptures for us though the shedding of the lambs blood from the foundation of the world . and unlocking the mysteries of God held for ages and it is GODS MERCY THOUGH THE LORD JESUS CHRIST and always was, and is, and will be .
two witnesses .. of the old and new testaments Isaiah 22 . 22I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David. What he opens, no one can shut; what he shuts, no one can open. 23I will drive him like a peg into a firm place, and he will be a throne of glory for the house of his father....
Matthew 16:19
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
Revelation 3:7
To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These are the words of the One who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What He opens, no one will shut; and what He shuts, no one will open.
Job 12:14
What He tears down cannot be rebuilt; the man He imprisons cannot be released.
Isaiah 7:2
When it became known to the house of David that Aram was in league with Ephraim, the hearts of Ahaz and his people trembled like trees in the forest shaken by the wind.
Isaiah 7:13
Then Isaiah said, "Hear now, O house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you try the patience of my God as well?
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
If we can just look at the big picture that the LORD JESUS CHRIST / SEED/WORD has been scattered throughout time and place as an anointing of GODS WISDOM throughout this world and in everything always and is being gathered and placed by GOD HIMSELF as to being completed by Him in His own judgments and desires , we can rest in that work of GOD as a perfect working being done . the WORD JUDGES US ALL BY HIS SPIRIT OF LIFE .
Everyone everywhere being born of flesh and blood was already destined to die in ways that we do not know how it is going to end for us /them , all etc.,, but those whom were called out and given some of His Wisdom to know this peace that even surpasses all understanding it , knows it is a perfect work and we rest in that very hope of GODS glory yet to be reveled to us and in us and for HIM THAT WILL EVER BE WITH THE LORD as building an eternal dwelling place that cannot fail or even be scattered again , but whole and complete and perfect in the will / DESIRE of GODS DOING and will never be ashamed because they have been given the grace and truth of GODS WISDOM to totally trust in this working of the Holy Spirit to the end .
Spiritual Wisdom
...14The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone's judgment. 16"For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ....
Proverbs 28:5
Evil men do not understand justice, but those who seek the LORD comprehend fully.
1 Corinthians 3:1
Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual, but as worldly--as infants in Christ.
1 Corinthians 14:37
If anyone considers himself a prophet or spiritual person, let him acknowledge that what I am writing you is the Lord's command.38 But if anyone ignores this, he himself will be ignored.
39So, my brothers, be eager to prophesy and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything must be done in a proper and orderly manner.
Galatians 6:1
Brothers, if someone is caught in a trespass, you who are spiritual should restore him with a spirit of gentleness. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.
1 John 2:20
You, however, have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.
GODS LOVE WILL NOT fail a one of us ever ... we can bank on this eternal hope of glory being made known as the Light is ever increasing as the DAY IS HERE , as the darkness is being swallowed up in victory over the death /last enemy to comprehend , we just have to comprehend it fully with GODS HOLY SPIRIT doing the works in us all .
com·pre·hend
ˌkämprəˈhend/Submit
verb
1.
grasp mentally; understand.
"he couldn't comprehend her reasons for marrying Lovat"
synonyms: understand, grasp, take in, see, apprehend, follow, make sense of, fathom, get to the bottom of; More
2.
formal
include, comprise, or encompass.
"a divine order comprehending all men"
synonyms: comprise, include, encompass, embrace, involve, contain
"a divine order comprehending all men"
John 1 The Beginning
(Genesis 1:1-2)
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
4In Him was life, and that life was the light of men.
5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome/comprehend it.
For me and my two cents , we have to overcome/comprehend the carnal mind /beastly temporal and earthly wisdom / loose it , with the mind of Christ , that anointing of the Holy Spirit , will make the way of LIGHT AND LIFE ever increasing , hold it , keep it , embrace it and knowing the desire of God that none should perish and is without end .
For me ,at now LOVE is not always appearing as some sweet and gooey, lovey dovey push over , but quite the opposite , it can seem cruel and truth can be so brutal without taking ANY offense , Look at the cross of the LORD JESUS CHRIST
To the world it seems so weak and beggarly with no fear of GOD in it , How many hardened hearted men[because of sin and error. missing the mark of the higher calling to rise up in Christ ] have said it over the many thousands of years whom have even bothered to consider it . What kind of God would do this to His own Son ?
Not even comprehending it was done for them !! In their own pride and stupidity and deep darkness and ignorance in their sin nature was being forgiven them even than ! .
God is kind to the unthankful and ungrateful and hatful , full of death and violence that have opposed him as their sins /demonic influences rose up to exalt themselves over GODS GLORY , not even knowing they would have no power at all if it were not given to them from above ! . Being brought down low as every knee will bow and the tongue will confess the LORD JESUS CHRIST will be their end of reign and terror against Gods desire ...
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: GodIsLove on June 09, 2018, 07:01:32 PM
Quote from: CST on June 09, 2018, 03:57:48 PM
On the main point we are discussing 'Lex Talionis' and Christ's reinterpretation of it people seem to be very quick to take this premise literally
The law is not to be taken literally but to define justice which in order to be properly just must be delivered by maintaining as much as possible perspective and proportion, something people tend to be increasingly willing to abandon screaming for increasing degrees of punishment and increasing rates after they hear about the incident.
Jesus' counter examples are built in the same mode to encourage response according to virtues such as patience. Jesus isn't literally asking anyone anyone, upon being struck on one cheek to present the other one as if to say 'go on, I dare you' because they'll probably take to up on it. Jesus is interpreting that the original law would be 'if they strike your left cheek you can strike there's back'. This causes escalation of both hostility and suffering and Jesus is using a hyperbole to dissuade people from doing this.
These are not instructions of things you're actually meant to do, they are hyperbolas used to make a point about merciful and virtuous behaviour.
These parts I quoted were the most helpful to me. Thanks for the perspective.
Thanks, for the edit. Now i just need to learn how to do this before I post.
Quote from: Dandelion on June 11, 2018, 04:00:04 AM
I think, in response to the original question, Jesus is saying something very revolutionary. He is saying do not fight aggression with more aggression, but oppose it with love.
That would also suggest that He was also explaining that, despite certain ideas of the Messiah, He was not going to try and liberate the Jews from their Roman occupiers, however much they may hope and expect their Messiah to do this.
I like the rest of you post too but felt only this invited extended comment.
Quote from: rosered on June 11, 2018, 01:05:24 PM
Honestly if you are even called of God out of the world for a certain purpose , the world is going to hate you .
This is going to be hard to get used to , because it goes against the grain , the world Is FULL OF CARNAL MANKIND!! as well also we can fall down into the ways of worldly thinking also , it is falling from truth and grace and back down into death again in my opinion , a stumble in pride of life .. so how to stay spiritual in a carnal world ? stay humble and kind , but also be as wise as a serpent but as harmless as a dove ... this is our cross to bear also following Jesus example and testimony /witness ..
Impossible for me to get used to, world hates me and I'm clearly not called to any purpose. I also don't see the purpose of anything which is predefined as futile which is what it means to say the world will reject what we do. That means we can only ever preach to the converted which is pointless. The only other purpose would be to condemn the world anew and so far as I can tell it does that perfectly well without our interference.
Quote from: CST on June 11, 2018, 01:34:15 PM
Quote from: GodIsLove on June 09, 2018, 07:01:32 PM
Quote from: CST on June 09, 2018, 03:57:48 PM
On the main point we are discussing 'Lex Talionis' and Christ's reinterpretation of it people seem to be very quick to take this premise literally
The law is not to be taken literally but to define justice which in order to be properly just must be delivered by maintaining as much as possible perspective and proportion, something people tend to be increasingly willing to abandon screaming for increasing degrees of punishment and increasing rates after they hear about the incident.
Jesus' counter examples are built in the same mode to encourage response according to virtues such as patience. Jesus isn't literally asking anyone anyone, upon being struck on one cheek to present the other one as if to say 'go on, I dare you' because they'll probably take to up on it. Jesus is interpreting that the original law would be 'if they strike your left cheek you can strike there's back'. This causes escalation of both hostility and suffering and Jesus is using a hyperbole to dissuade people from doing this.
These are not instructions of things you're actually meant to do, they are hyperbolas used to make a point about merciful and virtuous behaviour.
These parts I quoted were the most helpful to me. Thanks for the perspective.
Thanks, for the edit. Now i just need to learn how to do this before I post.
Quote from: Dandelion on June 11, 2018, 04:00:04 AM
I think, in response to the original question, Jesus is saying something very revolutionary. He is saying do not fight aggression with more aggression, but oppose it with love.
That would also suggest that He was also explaining that, despite certain ideas of the Messiah, He was not going to try and liberate the Jews from their Roman occupiers, however much they may hope and expect their Messiah to do this.
I like the rest of you post too but felt only this invited extended comment.
Quote from: rosered on June 11, 2018, 01:05:24 PM
Honestly if you are even called of God out of the world for a certain purpose , the world is going to hate you .
This is going to be hard to get used to , because it goes against the grain , the world Is FULL OF CARNAL MANKIND!! as well also we can fall down into the ways of worldly thinking also , it is falling from truth and grace and back down into death again in my opinion , a stumble in pride of life .. so how to stay spiritual in a carnal world ? stay humble and kind , but also be as wise as a serpent but as harmless as a dove ... this is our cross to bear also following Jesus example and testimony /witness ..
Impossible for me to get used to, world hates me and I'm clearly not called to any purpose. I also don't see the purpose of anything which is predefined as futile which is what it means to say the world will reject what we do. That means we can only ever preach to the converted which is pointless. The only other purpose would be to condemn the world anew and so far as I can tell it does that perfectly well without our interference.
We are all carnal sold under sin nature , This is what is so beautiful about God !!! none is exempt ... no one is going to boast about how great they are !!!! but HOW GREAT GOD IS !!
Born again as a spiritual creature is also Gods work , not of our own .
it is just easier to accept everything as Gods Will / desire and just quit striving against God in our sinful nature and being awakened to a new nature that is pleasing to God but the world will oppose it , even call it weak or even mistake your kindness for stupidity and abuse your loving heart ..
the world will hate you
here is some plain english John 15:18-25 (NIV)
The World Hates the Disciples those called out of the world , this applies to anyone seeking the LORD in my opinion .
18 "If the world hates you,keep in mind that it hated me first.
19 If you belonged to the world,
it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world.
That is why the world hates you.
20 Remember what I told you: 'A servant is not greater than his master.'
If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.
21 They will treat you this way
because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them,
they would not be guilty of sin;
but now they have no excuse for their sin.
23 Whoever hates me hates my Father as well. :sigh:
24 If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin.
As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father.
25 But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law:
'They hated me without reason. I can see this as the TRUTH , if the truth sets you free you are wise , but if you hate the truth you will be offended over the truth you HATE THE TRUTH
ever learning and never come to the knowledge of the truth , there experiences only make the worse not for the better , puffed up and self righteous.............. when you are belonging to the LORD JESUS CHRIST and have the same testimony and witness working in you they also will hate your words and deeds also..
Evil in the Last Days
...6They are the kind who worm their way into households and captivate vulnerable women who are weighed down with sins and led astray by various passions,
7always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.
Example , and same for you as well ..
8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses,
so also these men oppose the truth. They are depraved in mind and disqualified from the faith....
1 Timothy 2:4
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.2 Timothy 2:25
He must gently reprove those who oppose him, in the hope that God may grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth. the truth like a sharp sword with a very sharp point pops our proud egos , making them deflate like a hot air balloon
this to me is How Jesus always drawed out the evil in mankind with the truth exposing their anger HATE /sin nature and making them realize that they need salvation from GOD just as much as all those they oppose !! the WORD OF TRUTH judges us all according to the same measure we measure out to others we ourselves are judged by this SAME WORD dispense or allot justice, a punishment, or harsh treatment. Mercy is given to those whom show mercy and judgment upon those whom show judgement .... Moses law was about exposing sin and nakedness , Jesus is all about covering it in love and mercy and grace .
Matt 23 ...11The greatest among you shall be your servant.
12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let in those who wish to enter come in either ....
Matt 23 is pretty heavy on what NOT to do when opposing the truth , we are going to be crushed by the rock solid truth of the matter .
May God have mercy on us all at this time as we also show mercy to those that oppose the truth working in us ... :HeartThrob:
for me, it is like language itself
In other words ..... "I am what I speak"
If words of the law come out of my mouth, then I am law
If words of judgment come out of my mouth, then I am judgment
If words of Grace come out of mouth, then I am Grace
If words of Love come out of my moth, then I am Love
If words of Comfort come out of my mouth, then I am Comfort
For me, to turn the other cheek means; do not speak out of the cheek that is in pain, speak out of the cheek that has no pain
:2c:
Question:
Yes Jesus was hated, mostly by the religious leaders. But he was also surrounded by crowds of people for most of his ministry right? Palm Sunday just before he died he was well received by the masses.
Are we really to be hated by a lot of people, or just the religious establishment like Jesus was?
And what about truly evil people who actually ARE hated by the masses..Like Hitler. ALL religions and atheists can agree to "hate" him. This doesn't mean that somehow because the world hates him he is Christ-like. Sometimes the world abhorrs evil and they are right.
So when Christians say the world hates them like the world hated Jesus, sometimes they don't realize things they are doing to provoke hatred, such as being judgemental or hateful themselves.
Therefore how do we know if the world hating us is a good thing or not?
Also, I'm not gonna lie, I don't think a lot of people hate me. Does this mean I'm doing something wrong? Now people don't agree with my theology, but that is different.
Just some thoughts that came to mind.
Quote from: jugghead on June 11, 2018, 09:41:48 PM
for me, it is like language itself
In other words ..... "I am what I speak"
If words of the law come out of my mouth, then I am law
If words of judgment come out of my mouth, then I am judgment
If words of Grace come out of mouth, then I am Grace
If words of Love come out of my moth, then I am Love
If words of Comfort come out of my mouth, then I am Comfort
For me, to turn the other cheek means; do not speak out of the cheek that is in pain, speak out of the cheek that has no pain
:2c:
Cool. I like it.
Don't dwell on your pain/hurt and instead turn to your strength (God) and show love?
Quote from: GodIsLove on June 12, 2018, 06:46:09 AM
Quote from: jugghead on June 11, 2018, 09:41:48 PM
for me, it is like language itself
In other words ..... "I am what I speak"
If words of the law come out of my mouth, then I am law
If words of judgment come out of my mouth, then I am judgment
If words of Grace come out of mouth, then I am Grace
If words of Love come out of my moth, then I am Love
If words of Comfort come out of my mouth, then I am Comfort
For me, to turn the other cheek means; do not speak out of the cheek that is in pain, speak out of the cheek that has no pain
:2c:
Cool. I like it.
Don't dwell on your pain/hurt and instead turn to your strength (God) and show love?
TRUTH !! :HeartThrob:
Quote from: GodIsLove on June 12, 2018, 05:16:07 AM
Question:
Yes Jesus was hated, mostly by the religious leaders. But he was also surrounded by crowds of people for most of his ministry right? Palm Sunday just before he died he was well received by the masses.
Are we really to be hated by a lot of people, or just the religious establishment like Jesus was?
And what about truly evil people who actually ARE hated by the masses..Like Hitler. ALL religions and atheists can agree to "hate" him. This doesn't mean that somehow because the world hates him he is Christ-like. Sometimes the world abhorrs evil and they are right.
So when Christians say the world hates them like the world hated Jesus, sometimes they don't realize things they are doing to provoke hatred, such as being judgemental or hateful themselves.
Therefore how do we know if the world hating us is a good thing or not?
Also, I'm not gonna lie, I don't think a lot of people hate me. Does this mean I'm doing something wrong? Now people don't agree with my theology, but that is different.
Just some thoughts that came to mind.
Jesus COMES as the light of the world and many desired to put that light out . in my humbled opinion .They do not want the light to expose their evil hearts .
I agree with you mostly it is those "control freak " types that DO take advantage . They love the darkness and despise the the Truth . the Truth offends them , they see no wrong doing . they make excuses for themselves .
When you do not let them manipulate you and use you and control you for their selfish desires any longer , they grow to hate you , if they cannot control you with empty flatteries any longer and they sure did oppose Jesus because He did not do those miracles/healing for their advantage , To hear the Spirit of Life speaking to them , See Jesus and a heart to understand the Love of God and did do that before them but not to them .but stopped listening only to growl at him and call Him evil for doing good works among the crowds !!! .
He let them be and even escaped from their sight .
So they stayed in the darkness and ignorance of their own doings . I believe they were very jealous of Jesus Light of Life .
They wanted to BE JESUS and not Like Jesus .
I see them types as dead while they are living , because the curse seems to be in a constant state of want and need and nakedness ,and they are never content .
They try to appear as righteous before everyone , but they are never satisfied , they murmur and complain about everything and everyone and use everyone and everything as they are entitled .
They are bitter , just like the children of the wilderness were , not a one come out of that alive and how God made a 3 days journey 40 years long and they still could not repent of their doings and be sincerely thankful to GOD but opposed Him in every little thing .How can you help someone whom will not accept the truth to be changed ? but becomes offended by Truth ?. they never loved the truth but hate the truth and cannot be set free with that kind of mindset .
You begin to see the pattern they do love darkness more than the Light because their deeds are evil . They love walking in the flesh and not in the Spirit of Life . They desire to use Jesus in name only to also take advantage of the poor in spirit , not realizing they are in exactly the same way or even worse they have the mark of the beast mentality , hunt , kill and destroy the weaker ones to fatten themselves up.
I 100% agree with you we are to hate all forms of evil , Paul gave us some real insight in Romans 7 and 8
when He told us their is no good thing in our flesh , so quit depending on it for anything good to come from it , it is judged already as worthless and to thank God for the Lord Jesus Christ to deliver him from the body of death
Having the mind of Christ would get him to where he needed to be , but would have to wait on the LORD to complete him fully .
Quote from: rosered on June 11, 2018, 08:07:24 PM
We are all carnal sold under sin nature , This is what is so beautiful about God !!! none is exempt ... no one is going to boast about how great they are !!!! but HOW GREAT GOD IS !!
Hmm, part of faith is that there is sometimes doubt. So, Rose, I now ask you did it ever cross you're mind that if we, the claimed crown of creation, are nothing to boast about than that makes us a pretty poor advert for the God who made that creation? It certainly occurred to me and, if I've read them right, it's also occurred to almost endless numbers of atheists. If we can't boast about ourselves because there's really nothing to boast about, can God? And if He can't doesn't that spectacularly reduce the apparent greatness of God that the race that is made in God's image is such an appalling representation of that God. Atheists certainly think so.
Christ's point is based on the fact that He is God and the 'World' refers to the human capacity to reject God because they see Him at best an inconvenience or worse a threat to everything we want to do. God who's just a spoil port who just appears whenever He fancies tells us off harshly for not doing what He would have us do even though we were enjoying it than vanishes again until the cycle repeats. This is generally how people see God and why they reject God and why they will tend to reject us if we come in His name.
Quote from: GodIsLove on June 12, 2018, 05:16:07 AM
Question:
Yes Jesus was hated, mostly by the religious leaders. But he was also surrounded by crowds of people for most of his ministry right? Palm Sunday just before he died he was well received by the masses.
Are we really to be hated by a lot of people, or just the religious establishment like Jesus was?
And what about truly evil people who actually ARE hated by the masses..Like Hitler. ALL religions and atheists can agree to "hate" him. This doesn't mean that somehow because the world hates him he is Christ-like. Sometimes the world abhorrs evil and they are right.
So when Christians say the world hates them like the world hated Jesus, sometimes they don't realize things they are doing to provoke hatred, such as being judgemental or hateful themselves.
Therefore how do we know if the world hating us is a good thing or not?
Also, I'm not gonna lie, I don't think a lot of people hate me. Does this mean I'm doing something wrong? Now people don't agree with my theology, but that is different.
Just some thoughts that came to mind.
Quite, but there are some good points here and some less good ones.
Jesus was accepted by many people but not necessarily on account of His Messiahship. Today we have a cavalcade of celebrities flooding our airwaves who we can accept and reject as easily as they rejected Jesus. And they did reject Jesus, the Bible is quite clear on this.
A week after Jesus arrived triumphantly in Jerusalem as you described He was arrested and despite the fact it is recorded that Pilate found Him guilty of nothing they demanded the release of a murderer, the ironically named Barrabas, in violation of the covenant which says all murderers must die, and demanded Jesus' crucifixion.
This is the very point of sin that people are this fickle, they were made, through various mechanisms to accept the conclusion of those leaders and justices. They found Jesus guilty, he must be guilty. He wasn't but they can justify the idea quite easily. They are guilty of rejecting Jesus the Bible is quite clear of this although subsequent generations have misapplied the judgements made here.
As for Hitler, yes we all think he's an evil monster but that's the lesson of history. He was accepted in his day that was how he because so powerful as to lead us all into WWII. He took control of Germany illegally but he had huge support from people in his country which enabled his atrocities which is why we hate him. Even neighboring nations ignored his unjust invasions almost until it was to late. The principle under which Hitler was accepted is simply to how Jesus was crucified.
But I certainly agree that the claim of Jesus that the world will hate us can be used to justify anything and resist reforming the church. If the world objects and resists they just say 'Yeah, Jesus warned us they'd do that.' and invalidate any arguments their opponents make.
Just a few thoughts.......
When Jesus said that 'the world will hate you' I don't think that that always translates into individuals 'attacking' us.
The world, I think, represents the way people look at what is permissible, appealing, comfortable, acceptable, exciting, desirable, and so on. More that actually attack Christians, though, that happens, too, is that they think us simple minded, fools, backwards, and so on. They might dismiss what we have to say, or not want us to hang around in their 'crowd'. Many people who call themselves Christians, might be the first ones to do this to us.
I think we have to keep in mind, that to truly be a Christian, is to be radically opposed to the way this world carries out 'business, as usual'. It might well be done in a quiet way, but there is much disdain for a Christian who speaks their mind, and lives the life of a follower of Christ.
I am not generally hated, but I am definitely looked upon as a fringe person of society. The people do not think enough of me to actually actively hate me......I am not important enough for them to even think to hate me. I say and do things that are not popular.
I am laughed at behind my back, I am sure......even by some who are supposedly friends. I do not spend my extra time trying to accumulate a lot of wealth, vacationing, doing cool, but expensive things, and so on. I spend my free time with friends and family and doing ministry events and one to one assisting to some people in need. I have a godson, whose father is in and out of jail, and is being raised by his grandparents. I spend time with this sweet little boy, so he has more people surrounding him with love. Just one example.....
Many people do not understand this kind of a life.......they think I am wasting my time, and take chances with having to sacrifice too much for others, who to them, are not my concern.
Another example.....I come from a family of alcoholics, and at a very young age, chose not to drink alcohol. I am not invited places, often, partially, at least, because of this. I am not 'cool'. I don't use bad language.....not 'cool'. I don't wear tight or provocative clothing....not 'cool'. I did not allow my children to do some of the things other children were allowed to do, at the time. Not 'cool'.
My family criticized me for overseeing an elderly, mentally ill aunt of mine, who was also a lesbian. They told me to forget about her. They told me to allow my mother to die, because she needed a feeding tube. I actually got her to be able to eat, again, for the time she was with me, after she had had a stroke.
It goes on. I am sure you get the point.
I don't want you to think I judge people who do things differently than I do. I try to listen to what Jesus asks of me, and I let Him decide what is good and permissible for others.
But, I take heart. Fear not, Jesus said, I have conquered the world.
He thinks I am very 'cool'! :girlheart:
D.
I just want to add here, sorry for sounding so darn self-righteous. I must have written this late at night, or in a hurry. Sometimes I just 'run my mouth' and then am horrified at how it sounds later. Forgive me.
Quote from: Dandelion on June 12, 2018, 02:31:43 PM
Just a few thoughts.......
When Jesus said that 'the world will hate you' I don't think that that always translates into individuals 'attacking' us.
The world, I think, represents the way people look at what is permissible, appealing, comfortable, acceptable, exciting, desirable, and so on. More that actually attack Christians, though, that happens, too, is that they think us simple minded, fools, backwards, and so on. They might dismiss what we have to say, or not want us to hang around in their 'crowd'. Many people who call themselves Christians, might be the first ones to do this to us.
I think we have to keep in mind, that to truly be a Christian, is to be radically opposed to the way this world carries out 'business, as usual'. It might well be done in a quiet way, but there is much disdain for a Christian who speaks their mind, and lives the life of a follower of Christ.
I am not generally hated, but I am definitely looked upon as a fringe person of society. The people do not think enough of me to actually actively hate me......I am not important enough for them to even think to hate me. I say and do things that are not popular.
I am laughed at behind my back, I am sure......even by some who are supposedly friends. I do not spend my extra time trying to accumulate a lot of wealth, vacationing, doing cool, but expensive things, and so on. I spend my free time with friends and family and doing ministry events and one to one assisting to some people in need. I have a godson, whose father is in and out of jail, and is being raised by his grandparents. I spend time with this sweet little boy, so he has more people surrounding him with love. Just one example.....
Many people do not understand this kind of a life.......they think I am wasting my time, and take chances with having to sacrifice too much for others, who to them, are not my concern.
Another example.....I come from a family of alcoholics, and at a very young age, chose not to drink alcohol. I am not invited places, often, partially, at least, because of this. I am not 'cool'. I don't use bad language.....not 'cool'. I don't wear tight or provocative clothing....not 'cool'. I did not allow my children to do some of the things other children were allowed to do, at the time. Not 'cool'.
My family criticized me for overseeing an elderly, mentally ill aunt of mine, who was also a lesbian. They told me to forget about her. They told me to allow my mother to die, because she needed a feeding tube. I actually got her to be able to eat, again, for the time she was with me, after she had had a stroke.
It goes on. I am sure you get the point.
I don't want you to think I judge people who do things differently than I do. I try to listen to what Jesus asks of me, and I let Him decide what is good and permissible for others.
But, I take heart. Fear not, Jesus said, I have conquered the world.
He thinks I am very 'cool'! :girlheart:
D.
Loved that, Dandelion.
I guess where I live there are a lot of hippies that I'm friends with who culturally have a lot in common with Christians (pacifist, don't let their kids watch junk on TV, not materialistic, dress modestly, homeschool—though I don't—-volunteer, want to help the poor). This skews my perception maybe, because I'm surrounded by non Christians who understand much of the Christian message. I am like you and come from a family of alcoholics but they seem to accept me though I don't drink at all. My in-laws think I'm odd I think but the also accept me. I see that I do things differently from other parents of kids at my children's school but I've also found some non Christians that I can relate to as well.
I guess people who would hate me are not in my life so I don't feel persecuted. I feel a lack of communion with people with like minded beliefs in life but not hate. I agree people often hate Christians but when people tell me why they are against Christians it is things like they feel the Christians are judgmental, self righteous, hateful. And some are. Ghandi was quoted as saying something like he likes Christ but not Christians.
I agree if people believe in love and forgiveness and praying for enemies and that kind of thing, non Christians and Christians alike have expressed an inability to do that and thinking it is naive. One friend told me she found out a family she likes is Christian and was surprised because this person has a negative view of Christians but this family shook her opposition to Christians. I then told her I am Christian and I think I helped to show her a different side of Christianity as well.
Another Jewish agnostic friend I have doesn't agree with my beliefs but her husband is a Christian universalist. She and I love each other like sisters even if we don't see eye to eye.
Christians disagree with my theology but they still remain in my life and some I'm very close with.
Yes the selfish and arrogant will hate us, but they hate most everyone except themselves.
I'm just trying to see this from different angles, thanks for the input!
Quote from: CST on June 12, 2018, 02:10:31 PM
Quote from: rosered on June 11, 2018, 08:07:24 PM
We are all carnal sold under sin nature , This is what is so beautiful about God !!! none is exempt ... no one is going to boast about how great they are !!!! but HOW GREAT GOD IS !!
Hmm, part of faith is that there is sometimes doubt. So, Rose, I now ask you did it ever cross you're mind that if we, the claimed crown of creation, are nothing to boast about than that makes us a pretty poor advert for the God who made that creation? It certainly occurred to me and, if I've read them right, it's also occurred to almost endless numbers of atheists. If we can't boast about ourselves because there's really nothing to boast about, can God? And if He can't doesn't that spectacularly reduce the apparent greatness of God that the race that is made in God's image is such an appalling representation of that God. Atheists certainly think so.
Christ's point is based on the fact that He is God and the 'World' refers to the human capacity to reject God because they see Him at best an inconvenience or worse a threat to everything we want to do. God who's just a spoil port who just appears whenever He fancies tells us off harshly for not doing what He would have us do even though we were enjoying it than vanishes again until the cycle repeats. This is generally how people see God and why they reject God and why they will tend to reject us if we come in His name.
Quote from: GodIsLove on June 12, 2018, 05:16:07 AM
Question:
Yes Jesus was hated, mostly by the religious leaders. But he was also surrounded by crowds of people for most of his ministry right? Palm Sunday just before he died he was well received by the masses.
Are we really to be hated by a lot of people, or just the religious establishment like Jesus was?
And what about truly evil people who actually ARE hated by the masses..Like Hitler. ALL religions and atheists can agree to "hate" him. This doesn't mean that somehow because the world hates him he is Christ-like. Sometimes the world abhorrs evil and they are right.
So when Christians say the world hates them like the world hated Jesus, sometimes they don't realize things they are doing to provoke hatred, such as being judgemental or hateful themselves.
Therefore how do we know if the world hating us is a good thing or not?
Also, I'm not gonna lie, I don't think a lot of people hate me. Does this mean I'm doing something wrong? Now people don't agree with my theology, but that is different.
Just some thoughts that came to mind.
Quite, but there are some good points here and some less good ones.
Jesus was accepted by many people but not necessarily on account of His Messiahship. Today we have a cavalcade of celebrities flooding our airwaves who we can accept and reject as easily as they rejected Jesus. And they did reject Jesus, the Bible is quite clear on this.
A week after Jesus arrived triumphantly in Jerusalem as you described He was arrested and despite the fact it is recorded that Pilate found Him guilty of nothing they demanded the release of a murderer, the ironically named Barrabas, in violation of the covenant which says all murderers must die, and demanded Jesus' crucifixion.
This is the very point of sin that people are this fickle, they were made, through various mechanisms to accept the conclusion of those leaders and justices. They found Jesus guilty, he must be guilty. He wasn't but they can justify the idea quite easily. They are guilty of rejecting Jesus the Bible is quite clear of this although subsequent generations have misapplied the judgements made here.
As for Hitler, yes we all think he's an evil monster but that's the lesson of history. He was accepted in his day that was how he because so powerful as to lead us all into WWII. He took control of Germany illegally but he had huge support from people in his country which enabled his atrocities which is why we hate him. Even neighboring nations ignored his unjust invasions almost until it was to late. The principle under which Hitler was accepted is simply to how Jesus was crucified.
But I certainly agree that the claim of Jesus that the world will hate us can be used to justify anything and resist reforming the church. If the world objects and resists they just say 'Yeah, Jesus warned us they'd do that.' and invalidate any arguments their opponents make.
Ok, you are right in that Jesus was hated as well as loved and that representing sin being fickle is a good line, I like it.
And yes Hitler has lots of followers or else he wouldn't have been able to carry out what he did.
Your first part to Rose about not being able to boast because we are such a terrible creation, and wouldn't that reflect on God as being a poor creator has me thinking. More on that later if I have a moment to type.
Rose, good points about people wanting to be Jesus instead of follow him, and that the carnal minded are jealous of him.
:2c: actually allmen[in Adam] are hated of the Prince of this world..for the mere fact God loves them and favoured them with dominion
of this earth! Satan lied,robbed and killed all in Adam to seize the dominion of this earth.He seized men's minds,bodies and led them
into sin/suffering/death. every man from the time he parts the matrix into this world is/becomes something for the dragon to devour!
allmen will be victimized in one way or another...any who turn from sin becomes a prey in the earth....
man sown in weakness become a'soft'target for the wicked/rebellious ones...like taking candy from a baby!
thus,why GodHimself must deliver us from our enemy that is stronger then us.
The victory most assuredly does notcome from man's own endeavours..but,byHis spirit which raises us up in power andincorruption..
when we rise andputon immortality...this world beneath our feet[earth as God's foot-stool] and we sit in heavenly places.
til then the token of our inheritance[spiritual] helps/comforts/guides/protects/disciplines/guards..until we inherit[enter into andnever
come out of that Holycity,Jerusalem Above.
This was a great thread to read! I don't feel hated by anyone but a lot of longterm, almost lifetime, friends very much disagree with my view of life, and yes I'm sure they think I lack good thinking ability, and so far, I think this is the 'persecution' of our time and place.. but which can change.. As a matter of fact, I see it as having gotten much worse over time and as still progressing!
When I read about the "not boasting", that's kind of the idea I have about God's creation - of which mankind is part, lol, as being truly magnificent and glorious and that's even in it's imperfect, prone to decay state! So I disagree pretty strongly with any sort of view that thinks of physicality as some sort of fallen state or imprisonment.. I simply think it's a case of imperfection (running its course) because humankind was given dominion over the earth and garden.. But I think a perfect creation/paradise is what our Father is creating.
I think of our not boasting is a not boasting in our own personal greatness, etc.. Like I earned immortality ( :laughing7: or I am immortal in my own self and essence.. because, you know, I'm so great, pure and wonderful, look at all these great things I do and what goodness proceeds from moi.. :eek: ..and forever, all competing to be greatest.. double eek.)
I think that christians are viewed as narrow minded and even obnoxious due to a mix of things. Some do very well at reflecting the Et view of God's character as portrayed by the idea of eternal afterlife torment. And then this is focused on and even exaggerated by those who despise the faith.. And this is the stereotype and caricature believed by some, and often portrayed in entertainment, etc.. Sort of mild persecution but of course has the potential to snowball. In some circles, hating certain (stereotyped) folks is considered not only acceptable, but enlightened. (Or so it surely does seem.. I guess it's the principalities and powers of the air, which never tire of "looking to devour".)
:Peace2: :HeartThrob:
p.s., the "strong delusion" of our day and place? that 'there is no God, anyone who believes there is, is ignorant at best' which sentiment is prophesied to progress? Unless? "all nations (will) remember and turn to the LORD" during this age (rather than at a later day).
Thanks to all replies I need everyone's thoughts on this subject , just as much as I did 20 years ago , I think the Light gets brighter and brighter if you are willing to take part in it never wanting to reject the truth :dsunny:
QuoteQuote from: rosered on June 11, 2018, 08:07:24 PM
We are all carnal sold under sin nature , This is what is so beautiful about God !!! none is exempt ... no one is going to boast about how great they are !!!! but HOW GREAT GOD IS !!
Hmm, part of faith is that there is sometimes doubt. So, Rose, I now ask you did it ever cross you're mind that if we, the claimed crown of creation, are nothing to boast about than that makes us a pretty poor advert for the God who made that creation? It certainly occurred to me and, if I've read them right, it's also occurred to almost endless numbers of atheists. If we can't boast about ourselves because there's really nothing to boast about, can God? And if He can't doesn't that spectacularly reduce the apparent greatness of God that the race that is made in God's image is such an appalling representation of that God. Atheists certainly think so.
Christ's point is based on the fact that He is God and the 'World' refers to the human capacity to reject God because they see Him at best an inconvenience or worse a threat to everything we want to do. God who's just a spoil port who just appears whenever He fancies tells us off harshly for not doing what He would have us do even though we were enjoying it than vanishes again until the cycle repeats. This is generally how people see God and why they reject God and why they will tend to reject us if we come in His name.
Looking back at a few scriptures , is how I came to this conclusion CST Everyone will boast in GODS GLORY .
Not by strength or might but by
MY SPIRIT says the LORD , ZECH 4 ...GODS GRACE IS WHAT SHALL save us all :HeartThrob:
I do believe only God himself can call anyone righteous , we cannot call ourselves righteous , maybe self righteous :laughing7: but that is a poor covering for sin , it is a filthy rag to be rejected and not holy/pure at all in Gods sight :eek:
When the Lord was sorry for making mankind by breaking His heart , it says the thoughts were evil continually Gen 6 Corruption on the Earth
...4The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and afterward as well, when the sons of God had relations with the daughters of men.
And they bore them children
who became the mighty men of old, men of renown.The Nephilim were the offspring of the "sons of God" and the "daughters of men" before the Deluge, according to Genesis 6:1–4
5Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great upon the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his
heart was altogether evil all the time. 6And the LORD regretted that He had made man on the earth,
and it grieved Him in His heart....
This just a thought but , to me it seems they left God out of everything except His holy name and that is how the blasphemed the name of God by their works of wickedness , their own hands and powers , there is definitely an evil influence working in their hearts that GOD is not pleased about .
Now another thought I have considered was when the Lord said that only , Noah , Job and Daniel was considered righteous
in Gods sight and that they could only save themselves , and no one else ... Ezek 14 ;14
What about Moses and Aaron and David Abraham etc , all those examples we see in the old testament ?
Now I thought real hard about this and asked the Lord what does this mean ?? please help me to see the truth and light .
It was as if a light bulb went off :idea2: That though their lives as a witness were they able to save themselves , will your own right hand save you ? Yes in these 3 cases it did!! but no one else in their family not city or groups being gathered ............. no one else could save even themselves but these 3 examples . :2c:
Job 40 Job Humbles Himself Before the LORD
...13Bury them together in the dust; imprison them in the grave.
14Then I will confess to you that your own right hand can save you. 15Look at Behemoth, which I made along with you. He feeds on grass like an ox....
JESUS COME TO SAVE THE WHOLE WORLD , HIS righteous act , just one , would save the whole world because everyone born was under the same law of sin and trespass , that death held them by , But being the lamb of God as born innocent and could not be proven guilty , by God or mankind , except for the liars of course , whom proved to be the greater sinners of blaspheming the HOLY SPIRIT witness .GODS OWN WORDS AND SPIRIT .[HIMSELF ] there is no more sacrifices for sin now , only though the righteous blood of Jesus can one be saved by the gift of God [Grace ] , this would be why every knee will bow and every tongue will confess the Lord each in their own order ...
Romans 5 is intense , all of it but here is the high light of it .
...17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive an abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
18Therefore, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous....
So no one will boast except in the Lord , as we do even now , and our hope is that all will come to the same repentant heart and change their minds also with great persuasion of faith in GOD by the HOLY SPIRIT WITNESS .
Eph 2 Alive with Christ
...8For it is by grace you have been
saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works,
so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life....
Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
1 Corinthians 1:29
so that no one may boast in His presence.
2 Timothy 1:9
He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not because of our own works,
but by His own purpose and by the
grace He granted us in Christ Jesus before time eternal. BIG CLUE TO WHEN THIS ALL WENT DOWN BEFORE the foundation of the world was lain the lamb was slain , but now it is an open show , no one has an excuse now as to they do not know it was hidden from them . :dsunny: Romans 1 ;20
Titus 3:5
He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done,
but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
MAKING ALL THINGS NEW is all His doing , so we can glory in God and rejoice in Him .. :HeartThrob:
Knowing the love of God right now is to our advantage by those labourers of Love that is to our benefit , but not to those whom are still seeking the LORDS FACE ....Their struggle is still very real and to be most pitied in my :2c: .
Was typing Shelia and Marie , right on :dsunny: EVERYONE ! ,you all have shared some wonderful HOLY SPIRIT FILLED thoughts ............... :HeartThrob:
ALL about the Love feasts ,,,,,,,,,, :HeartThrob:for God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son John 3 16
15that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life.
16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son,
that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world,
but to save the world through Him....
Maybe everyone has not come to believe it yet , but they sure will ! :dsunny: to know God is to LOVE Him :HeartThrob:
JESUS IS OUR exceedingly great reward Gen 15 1After these events, the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision: "Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your very great reward."
The death of Jesus Christ was the ultimate slap in the face to God
But in the end God will save them also
Quote from: GodIsLove on June 12, 2018, 03:26:43 PM
Ok, you are right in that Jesus was hated as well as loved and that representing sin being fickle is a good line, I like it.
And yes Hitler has lots of followers or else he wouldn't have been able to carry out what he did.
Your first part to Rose about not being able to boast because we are such a terrible creation, and wouldn't that reflect on God as being a poor creator has me thinking. More on that later if I have a moment to type.
Yes, although part of the problem we're having here is that when we use the word 'hate' the immediate understanding we have is of a strong emotional opposition to something. This wasn't what the word we translate as 'hate' meant to the Hebrews and I don't think it's what it meant to the Greeks when the NT writers used it.
In the Hebrew it suggests a strong rejection of something, a desire to be as far away from it and what it has to do with a possible. The NT example used is that of people living in the darkness and then, if they see the light they'll immediately be inclined to run deeper into the darkness to get away from it. They fear it so much they'll even try to extinguish it if they can. Which is what they were doing when they conspired to murder Jesus.
And that attraction to darkness it also how Hitler and those like him managed to trap people into his service. It's easy for us to say we all hate Hitler and everything he stood for now but the Revelation teaches that when the Beast from the Sea arrives most all of us will do it again. And, according to traditional teaching, this is an eternally fatal act for all those who commit it because they believe these people (the vast majority of humans according to tradition) choose to reject the light and always will.
As for my other part, I'm being rhetorical. I know full well God is not a poor creator. I'm just not sure how we're meant to convey that when we're supposedly such an appalling species. Which according to our creeds and prayers we apparently are allowed to say. Again I suspect 'boast' may not mean exactly what we understand it to mean. I suspect God doesn't 'boast' in that way about anyway, He doesn't have the weak character that requires it. Nevertheless, I doubt God's asking for false modesty either I don't really think God wants anything to do with things that have the word 'false' in them.
Quote from: Dandelion on June 12, 2018, 02:31:43 PM
Just a few thoughts.......
When Jesus said that 'the world will hate you' I don't think that that always translates into individuals 'attacking' us.
The world, I think, represents the way people look at what is permissible, appealing, comfortable, acceptable, exciting, desirable, and so on. More that actually attack Christians, though, that happens, too, is that they think us simple minded, fools, backwards, and so on. They might dismiss what we have to say, or not want us to hang around in their 'crowd'. Many people who call themselves Christians, might be the first ones to do this to us.
I think we have to keep in mind, that to truly be a Christian, is to be radically opposed to the way this world carries out 'business, as usual'. It might well be done in a quiet way, but there is much disdain for a Christian who speaks their mind, and lives the life of a follower of Christ.
I am not generally hated, but I am definitely looked upon as a fringe person of society. The people do not think enough of me to actually actively hate me......I am not important enough for them to even think to hate me. I say and do things that are not popular.
I am laughed at behind my back, I am sure......even by some who are supposedly friends. I do not spend my extra time trying to accumulate a lot of wealth, vacationing, doing cool, but expensive things, and so on. I spend my free time with friends and family and doing ministry events and one to one assisting to some people in need. I have a godson, whose father is in and out of jail, and is being raised by his grandparents. I spend time with this sweet little boy, so he has more people surrounding him with love. Just one example.....
Many people do not understand this kind of a life.......they think I am wasting my time, and take chances with having to sacrifice too much for others, who to them, are not my concern.
Another example.....I come from a family of alcoholics, and at a very young age, chose not to drink alcohol. I am not invited places, often, partially, at least, because of this. I am not 'cool'. I don't use bad language.....not 'cool'. I don't wear tight or provocative clothing....not 'cool'. I did not allow my children to do some of the things other children were allowed to do, at the time. Not 'cool'.
My family criticized me for overseeing an elderly, mentally ill aunt of mine, who was also a lesbian. They told me to forget about her. They told me to allow my mother to die, because she needed a feeding tube. I actually got her to be able to eat, again, for the time she was with me, after she had had a stroke.
It goes on. I am sure you get the point.
I don't want you to think I judge people who do things differently than I do. I try to listen to what Jesus asks of me, and I let Him decide what is good and permissible for others.
But, I take heart. Fear not, Jesus said, I have conquered the world.
He thinks I am very 'cool'! :girlheart:
D.
Question, when you here about Christian bakeries getting sued because they refuse to take business from people asking them to bake a cake to celebrate their marriage, whose side do you take, the bakers of the customers?
Whose side do you take over, say, the Jerry Springer: The Opera controversy? I know whose side I'm on, everyone should be offended by what JSTO did.
I see enough examples of this sort of thing on the news to be fully aware that Jesus had a valid point, I just don't like Christians using what Jesus said to justify unchristian things.
And I doubt Jesus thinks I'm 'very cool', I'm pretty awful for my own experience of myself.
Quote from: GodIsLove on June 12, 2018, 03:15:18 PM
I guess where I live there are a lot of hippies that I'm friends with who culturally have a lot in common with Christians (pacifist, don't let their kids watch junk on TV, not materialistic, dress modestly, homeschool—though I don't—-volunteer, want to help the poor). This skews my perception maybe, because I'm surrounded by non Christians who understand much of the Christian message. I am like you and come from a family of alcoholics but they seem to accept me though I don't drink at all. My in-laws think I'm odd I think but the also accept me. I see that I do things differently from other parents of kids at my children's school but I've also found some non Christians that I can relate to as well.
You seem, here, to be using examples of extremist Christians as understanding the Christian message, a concept I very much doubt.
Quote from: GodIsLove on June 12, 2018, 03:15:18 PMI agree if people believe in love and forgiveness and praying for enemies and that kind of thing, non Christians and Christians alike have expressed an inability to do that and thinking it is naive. One friend told me she found out a family she likes is Christian and was surprised because this person has a negative view of Christians but this family shook her opposition to Christians. I then told her I am Christian and I think I helped to show her a different side of Christianity as well.
Yes, but like I did with Dandelion above I direct your attention to Jerry Springer: The Opera, there's enough evidence from that controversy that a rather large proportion of the populace actually thinks that being loving, forgiving and praying for enemies is weak, sappy and 'girly' and otherwise has zero respect for those concepts.
That's enough for now. I'll think about responding to the stuff on page two another time.
CST,
I had to look up the Jerry Springer thing, the opera looks terrible, was it well received?
Not sure what you are alluding to with the Christian baker controversy, but honestly to me it's just a cake; if we were to not participate in anything we found evil, we wouldn't buy things like clothes (made in third world sweatshops), diamonds (mined with slave labor), chocolate, coffee etc (same), get vaccinated (use of aborted fetal cell lines in manufacturing), eat meat or dairy (inhumane treatment), watch TV or sports or movies (non-Christian values).
Some or all of the above used to and still does somewhat bother me but we live in a fallen world so we are surrounded by imperfection. It is unavoidable. Should we not bake a cake for an alcoholic, an atheist, an adulterer, a non-Christian, Etc?
Since I'm not clear, what are your thoughts on the issue out of curiosity?
Maybe I was playing devils advocate with the argument that I don't think the world hates us as much as some imply.
I agree that hate biblically doesn't mean hate as we understand it in the modern sense, maybe that's where it all can be resolved.
And maybe I'm arguing out of protest because I don't feel hated and don't want to be hated, I wouldn't rejoice and say I must be pleasing God if everyone disliked me.
People thinking I'm silly, weak, uncool...that's fine with me tho. :Peace2:
Amen, Rose! Our heavenly Father is so very, very wise..! He is bringing about the very best.. But He is love and He is "perfect" so why would we believe anything less of His abilities? :cloud9: :cloud9: :HeartThrob:
..I agree though, that we should have good answers for those who question and challenge the gospel - but it's usually the Et version of the "good news" they are reacting to.. which certainly complicates matters! But the simple truth is there's evidence of creation/design all around.. The debate really, really should move on to what sort of intelligence designed and created? That would make for great dialogue too!
And if they can let loose of the idea of Et.. It really does become "good news"! That death is the anomaly, not life! And why is life as it is?! It seems obvious and simple.. because God created rational, thinking beings.. which, surely, changes every thing. And by letting it run its course, it forever proves good from evil, what is life and what is death.. All knowing for a fact deeply etched upon every heart and mind.. never forgotten.. the hard lesson like smoke forever rising.. never forgotten.. the horror of death, in all its shadows.. all graphically portrayed. Was there any other way to bring about that complete understanding? Obviously ( :2c: :2c: ) this is the best way to bring about what it is He is creating which is perfection and paradise age to age..
But we don't have to accept every claim an atheist, unbeliever or Et believer throws out.. It's all based on error of thinking! Which most of us, once, also more or less embraced.. But now God keeps proving to us, Truth.. And making Himself known.. We are so blessed. Every one will be so blessed! [What a contrast, between "perfection/God(Life!)" and imperfection, which simply can never ever work.. Forever we will be able to laud and praise His utter perfection and the perfection of all that is.. (Glory!) 'The lion will eat straw like the ox, the bear will graze with the cow" Is 11:7. "Every tongue will wholeheartedly (according to the Greek) confess that Jesus is Lord" Philippians 2:11. "All families of the nations will rejoice before Him" Ps. 22:27.
"The fruit which the Spirit produces (in the heart) is love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, humility, temperance and self control, against such there is no law (required)" for the law of love is in the heart and mind and psyche.. of all.
Quote from: CST on June 13, 2018, 05:02:35 PM
Quote from: GodIsLove on June 12, 2018, 03:26:43 PM
Ok, you are right in that Jesus was hated as well as loved and that representing sin being fickle is a good line, I like it.
And yes Hitler has lots of followers or else he wouldn't have been able to carry out what he did.
Your first part to Rose about not being able to boast because we are such a terrible creation, and wouldn't that reflect on God as being a poor creator has me thinking. More on that later if I have a moment to type.
Yes, although part of the problem we're having here is that when we use the word 'hate' the immediate understanding we have is of a strong emotional opposition to something. This wasn't what the word we translate as 'hate' meant to the Hebrews and I don't think it's what it meant to the Greeks when the NT writers used it.
In the Hebrew it suggests a strong rejection of something, a desire to be as far away from it and what it has to do with a possible. The NT example used is that of people living in the darkness and then, if they see the light they'll immediately be inclined to run deeper into the darkness to get away from it. They fear it so much they'll even try to extinguish it if they can. Which is what they were doing when they conspired to murder Jesus.
And that attraction to darkness it also how Hitler and those like him managed to trap people into his service. It's easy for us to say we all hate Hitler and everything he stood for now but the Revelation teaches that when the Beast from the Sea arrives most all of us will do it again. And, according to traditional teaching, this is an eternally fatal act for all those who commit it because they believe these people (the vast majority of humans according to tradition) choose to reject the light and always will.
As for my other part, I'm being rhetorical. I know full well God is not a poor creator. I'm just not sure how we're meant to convey that when we're supposedly such an appalling species. Which according to our creeds and prayers we apparently are allowed to say. Again I suspect 'boast' may not mean exactly what we understand it to mean. I suspect God doesn't 'boast' in that way about anyway, He doesn't have the weak character that requires it. Nevertheless, I doubt God's asking for false modesty either I don't really think God wants anything to do with things that have the word 'false' in them.
Quote from: Dandelion on June 12, 2018, 02:31:43 PM
Just a few thoughts.......
When Jesus said that 'the world will hate you' I don't think that that always translates into individuals 'attacking' us.
The world, I think, represents the way people look at what is permissible, appealing, comfortable, acceptable, exciting, desirable, and so on. More that actually attack Christians, though, that happens, too, is that they think us simple minded, fools, backwards, and so on. They might dismiss what we have to say, or not want us to hang around in their 'crowd'. Many people who call themselves Christians, might be the first ones to do this to us.
I think we have to keep in mind, that to truly be a Christian, is to be radically opposed to the way this world carries out 'business, as usual'. It might well be done in a quiet way, but there is much disdain for a Christian who speaks their mind, and lives the life of a follower of Christ.
I am not generally hated, but I am definitely looked upon as a fringe person of society. The people do not think enough of me to actually actively hate me......I am not important enough for them to even think to hate me. I say and do things that are not popular.
I am laughed at behind my back, I am sure......even by some who are supposedly friends. I do not spend my extra time trying to accumulate a lot of wealth, vacationing, doing cool, but expensive things, and so on. I spend my free time with friends and family and doing ministry events and one to one assisting to some people in need. I have a godson, whose father is in and out of jail, and is being raised by his grandparents. I spend time with this sweet little boy, so he has more people surrounding him with love. Just one example.....
Many people do not understand this kind of a life.......they think I am wasting my time, and take chances with having to sacrifice too much for others, who to them, are not my concern.
Another example.....I come from a family of alcoholics, and at a very young age, chose not to drink alcohol. I am not invited places, often, partially, at least, because of this. I am not 'cool'. I don't use bad language.....not 'cool'. I don't wear tight or provocative clothing....not 'cool'. I did not allow my children to do some of the things other children were allowed to do, at the time. Not 'cool'.
My family criticized me for overseeing an elderly, mentally ill aunt of mine, who was also a lesbian. They told me to forget about her. They told me to allow my mother to die, because she needed a feeding tube. I actually got her to be able to eat, again, for the time she was with me, after she had had a stroke.
It goes on. I am sure you get the point.
I don't want you to think I judge people who do things differently than I do. I try to listen to what Jesus asks of me, and I let Him decide what is good and permissible for others.
But, I take heart. Fear not, Jesus said, I have conquered the world.
He thinks I am very 'cool'! :girlheart:
D.
Question, when you here about Christian bakeries getting sued because they refuse to take business from people asking them to bake a cake to celebrate their marriage, whose side do you take, the bakers of the customers?
Whose side do you take over, say, the Jerry Springer: The Opera controversy? I know whose side I'm on, everyone should be offended by what JSTO did.
I see enough examples of this sort of thing on the news to be fully aware that Jesus had a valid point, I just don't like Christians using what Jesus said to justify unchristian things.
And I doubt Jesus thinks I'm 'very cool', I'm pretty awful for my own experience of myself.
Quote from: GodIsLove on June 12, 2018, 03:15:18 PM
I guess where I live there are a lot of hippies that I'm friends with who culturally have a lot in common with Christians (pacifist, don't let their kids watch junk on TV, not materialistic, dress modestly, homeschool—though I don't—-volunteer, want to help the poor). This skews my perception maybe, because I'm surrounded by non Christians who understand much of the Christian message. I am like you and come from a family of alcoholics but they seem to accept me though I don't drink at all. My in-laws think I'm odd I think but the also accept me. I see that I do things differently from other parents of kids at my children's school but I've also found some non Christians that I can relate to as well.
You seem, here, to be using examples of extremist Christians as understanding the Christian message, a concept I very much doubt.
Quote from: GodIsLove on June 12, 2018, 03:15:18 PMI agree if people believe in love and forgiveness and praying for enemies and that kind of thing, non Christians and Christians alike have expressed an inability to do that and thinking it is naive. One friend told me she found out a family she likes is Christian and was surprised because this person has a negative view of Christians but this family shook her opposition to Christians. I then told her I am Christian and I think I helped to show her a different side of Christianity as well.
Yes, but like I did with Dandelion above I direct your attention to Jerry Springer: The Opera, there's enough evidence from that controversy that a rather large proportion of the populace actually thinks that being loving, forgiving and praying for enemies is weak, sappy and 'girly' and otherwise has zero respect for those concepts.
That's enough for now. I'll think about responding to the stuff on page two another time.
I KNOW Jesus thinks you are very cool! He loved you enough to die on the cross for you.....that makes you very cool!
As far as the baker, I don't think anyone should be forced to do something that conflicts with their religious beliefs, unless somehow it would harm someone else, in which case the law of the land would have to step in.
D.
:HeartThrob:
Amen Marie !! ,
I agree when seeing everything written in the BIBLE through the ET lense , a great fear was inevitable !
Amen D !,. WHile we were yet sinners Christ died for us , makes me wonder about the new born again , birthing in the Spirit and how it must be incorruptible and sinless , something to really rejoice about . !!
Amen God is Love !
The world hating Jesus and in the same cause hating us , I am inclined to think it has and does things with its own kind of wisdom and that is more opposing than anything , being all so temporary and hard to see past the present condition of things .
One thing that helped me to actually compare this was when Jesus called Peter satan when , Peter did not want Jesus to go to the cross , but stay and keep building up the ministry in Jesus earthly body , I was more under the impression ,
Get behind me satan, was a term to mean it is a hindrance to the Spirit
by not tasting / thinking on the things of God but that to be of mankind ..... http://biblehub.com/matthew/16-23.htm (http://biblehub.com/matthew/16-23.htm)
comparing these different versions ....
:dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: marie glen on June 12, 2018, 05:51:47 PM
This was a great thread to read! I don't feel hated by anyone but a lot of longterm, almost lifetime, friends very much disagree with my view of life, and yes I'm sure they think I lack good thinking ability, and so far, I think this is the 'persecution' of our time and place.. but which can change.. As a matter of fact, I see it as having gotten much worse over time and as still progressing!
When I read about the "not boasting", that's kind of the idea I have about God's creation - of which mankind is part, lol, as being truly magnificent and glorious and that's even in it's imperfect, prone to decay state! So I disagree pretty strongly with any sort of view that thinks of physicality as some sort of fallen state or imprisonment.. I simply think it's a case of imperfection (running its course) because humankind was given dominion over the earth and garden.. But I think a perfect creation/paradise is what our Father is creating.
I think of our not boasting is a not boasting in our own personal greatness, etc.. Like I earned immortality ( :laughing7: or I am immortal in my own self and essence.. because, you know, I'm so great, pure and wonderful, look at all these great things I do and what goodness proceeds from moi.. :eek: ..and forever, all competing to be greatest.. double eek.)
I think that christians are viewed as narrow minded and even obnoxious due to a mix of things. Some do very well at reflecting the Et view of God's character as portrayed by the idea of eternal afterlife torment. And then this is focused on and even exaggerated by those who despise the faith.. And this is the stereotype and caricature believed by some, and often portrayed in entertainment, etc.. Sort of mild persecution but of course has the potential to snowball. In some circles, hating certain (stereotyped) folks is considered not only acceptable, but enlightened. (Or so it surely does seem.. I guess it's the principalities and powers of the air, which never tire of "looking to devour".)
:Peace2: :HeartThrob:
p.s., the "strong delusion" of our day and place? that 'there is no God, anyone who believes there is, is ignorant at best' which sentiment is prophesied to progress? Unless? "all nations (will) remember and turn to the LORD" during this age (rather than at a later day).
Agrees mainly with that, although you should remember that the fact the entertainment industry can caricature us and God that does not always mean they are attacking us. Caricatures just work in the entertainment industry because the entertainment industry creates products not reality and uses various tools and forms of shorthand (of which caricatures is one) to do this.
Now Christianity isn't the only thing coming under fire from the modern world order, so is the entertainment industry because the product it puts out (which we somewhat hypocritically endorse every time we buy) doesn't sufficient represent diversity. People don't get that films and movies aren't actually trying to represent reality they are trying to repeatedly create a product they know from experience sells. I know diversity is important and it needs better representation, but the belief that the entertainment can just change its product overnight seems woefully naive.
Quote from: rosered on June 12, 2018, 06:02:27 PM
Thanks to all replies I need everyone's thoughts on this subject , just as much as I did 20 years ago , I think the Light gets brighter and brighter if you are willing to take part in it never wanting to reject the truth :dsunny:
QuoteQuote from: rosered on June 11, 2018, 08:07:24 PM
We are all carnal sold under sin nature , This is what is so beautiful about God !!! none is exempt ... no one is going to boast about how great they are !!!! but HOW GREAT GOD IS !!
Hmm, part of faith is that there is sometimes doubt. So, Rose, I now ask you did it ever cross you're mind that if we, the claimed crown of creation, are nothing to boast about than that makes us a pretty poor advert for the God who made that creation? It certainly occurred to me and, if I've read them right, it's also occurred to almost endless numbers of atheists. If we can't boast about ourselves because there's really nothing to boast about, can God? And if He can't doesn't that spectacularly reduce the apparent greatness of God that the race that is made in God's image is such an appalling representation of that God. Atheists certainly think so.
Christ's point is based on the fact that He is God and the 'World' refers to the human capacity to reject God because they see Him at best an inconvenience or worse a threat to everything we want to do. God who's just a spoil port who just appears whenever He fancies tells us off harshly for not doing what He would have us do even though we were enjoying it than vanishes again until the cycle repeats. This is generally how people see God and why they reject God and why they will tend to reject us if we come in His name.
Looking back at a few scriptures , is how I came to this conclusion CST Everyone will boast in GODS GLORY .
Not by strength or might but by MY SPIRIT says the LORD , ZECH 4 ...GODS GRACE IS WHAT SHALL save us all :HeartThrob:
I do believe only God himself can call anyone righteous , we cannot call ourselves righteous , maybe self righteous :laughing7: but that is a poor covering for sin , it is a filthy rag to be rejected and not holy/pure at all in Gods sight :eek:
When the Lord was sorry for making mankind by breaking His heart , it says the thoughts were evil continually Gen 6 Corruption on the Earth
...4The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and afterward as well, when the sons of God had relations with the daughters of men.
And they bore them children who became the mighty men of old, men of renown.The Nephilim were the offspring of the "sons of God" and the "daughters of men" before the Deluge, according to Genesis 6:1–4
5Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great upon the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was altogether evil all the time.
6And the LORD regretted that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him in His heart....
This just a thought but , to me it seems they left God out of everything except His holy name and that is how the blasphemed the name of God by their works of wickedness , their own hands and powers , there is definitely an evil influence working in their hearts that GOD is not pleased about .
Now another thought I have considered was when the Lord said that only , Noah , Job and Daniel was considered righteous
in Gods sight and that they could only save themselves , and no one else ... Ezek 14 ;14
What about Moses and Aaron and David Abraham etc , all those examples we see in the old testament ?
Now I thought real hard about this and asked the Lord what does this mean ?? please help me to see the truth and light .
It was as if a light bulb went off :idea2: That though their lives as a witness were they able to save themselves , will your own right hand save you ? Yes in these 3 cases it did!! but no one else in their family not city or groups being gathered ............. no one else could save even themselves but these 3 examples . :2c:
Job 40 Job Humbles Himself Before the LORD
...13Bury them together in the dust; imprison them in the grave. 14Then I will confess to you that your own right hand can save you. 15Look at Behemoth, which I made along with you. He feeds on grass like an ox....
JESUS COME TO SAVE THE WHOLE WORLD , HIS righteous act , just one , would save the whole world because everyone born was under the same law of sin and trespass , that death held them by , But being the lamb of God as born innocent and could not be proven guilty , by God or mankind , except for the liars of course , whom proved to be the greater sinners of blaspheming the HOLY SPIRIT witness .GODS OWN WORDS AND SPIRIT .[HIMSELF ] there is no more sacrifices for sin now , only though the righteous blood of Jesus can one be saved by the gift of God [Grace ] , this would be why every knee will bow and every tongue will confess the Lord each in their own order ...
Romans 5 is intense , all of it but here is the high light of it .
...17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive an abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
18Therefore, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous....
So no one will boast except in the Lord , as we do even now , and our hope is that all will come to the same repentant heart and change their minds also with great persuasion of faith in GOD by the HOLY SPIRIT WITNESS .
Eph 2 Alive with Christ
...8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life....
Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
1 Corinthians 1:29
so that no one may boast in His presence.
2 Timothy 1:9
He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not because of our own works, but by His own purpose and by the grace He granted us in Christ Jesus before time eternal. BIG CLUE TO WHEN THIS ALL WENT DOWN BEFORE the foundation of the world was lain the lamb was slain , but now it is an open show , no one has an excuse now as to they do not know it was hidden from them . :dsunny: Romans 1 ;20
Titus 3:5
He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
MAKING ALL THINGS NEW is all His doing , so we can glory in God and rejoice in Him .. :HeartThrob:
Knowing the love of God right now is to our advantage by those labourers of Love that is to our benefit , but not to those whom are still seeking the LORDS FACE ....Their struggle is still very real and to be most pitied in my :2c: .
The Sons of God and the daughters of Adam are both just humans. God is making an ironic point about man's dual heritage and their failure to live up to the first half of it.
You are misquoting Ezekiel slightly, God said if Noah, Job and Daniel were living in the day God addressed Ezekiel then they could save only themselves by their righteousness. Obviously this is a bit redundant. If Noah's family hadn't been saved, saving Noah would have been a bit pointless and so far as I can tell Job's righteousness certainly didn't save his sons and daughters God gave them no consideration. I'm not sure how Daniel fits are we meant to believe that his righteousness what actually what protected the three? I'm not sure I'm a bit rusty on Daniel.
Anyway humans will boast whether they're supposed to or not. All humans need God and will not succeed without Him although how God distributes success often seems very strange.
That finishes from yesterday. I'll get back to today later I hope.
QuoteThe Sons of God and the daughters of Adam are both just humans. God is making an ironic point about man's dual heritage and their failure to live up to the first half of it.
You are misquoting Ezekiel slightly, God said if Noah, Job and Daniel were living in the day God addressed Ezekiel then they could save only themselves by their righteousness. Obviously this is a bit redundant. If Noah's family hadn't been saved, saving Noah would have been a bit pointless and so far as I can tell Job's righteousness certainly didn't save his sons and daughters God gave them no consideration. I'm not sure how Daniel fits are we meant to believe that his righteousness what actually what protected the three? I'm not sure I'm a bit rusty on Daniel.
Anyway humans will boast whether they're supposed to or not. All humans need God and will not succeed without Him although how God distributes success often seems very strange.
That finishes from yesterday. I'll get back to today later I hope.
Amen CST
Thanks for sharing what is in your heart ....
It really is how we think and what thoughts rise up when we deal with others that expose what is growing in our hearts abundance .
Like food for thought is a metaphor , we have to eat Jesus / Word of God at the tables prepared for us all and it is sweet in our mouths but can become bitter in the belly where it has to be consumed and digested thoroughly .
We sure can be enemies opposing the WORD OF GOD and also be friends and family in the same breath / spirit of life and death by our language / tongues .
That being said , I do believe we have duel natures in one Body , and they struggle for the control over the body .
I do see the sons of God as spiritual in nature and the daughters of men as the carnal nature , causing the confusion by mixing both and creating a Babylon mixture [tree of knowledge of good and evil ] Till the tree of Life is granted to be eaten of again .
Babylon mixture is both prideful and yet weak offspring of the two natures , they are gods but die as men PSALMS 82
http://biblehub.com/bsb/psalms/82.htm (http://biblehub.com/bsb/psalms/82.htm)
The understanding I have come to see better is that the gods must bow the knee and pay homage to the ONE TRUE GOD in order to be gathered in THE LORD JESUS CHRIST , those that are gathered against Him are kings of the earth
as in Adam given the dominion over the earth and given the power to reign as with the Beast for that one hour
Our lives are like one hour to GOD , IF the 1000 years is one day in GODS sight and Adam was given 930 years of mortality he died before his day was done in the Day he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and rose up to be LIKE GOD and know good and evil .
that leaves 70 years of being mortal and that is the tail end of everyones mortal life in the here and now to be weak
Because the flesh is weak , but the Spirit is willing , Gods spirit is willing to save at any time the weak and ignorant and beggarly ...
I am convinced Jesus is speaking metaphorically in these scriptures below and does many, many times in the scriptures
trying to show us spiritually things by comparing them to earthly things by the 2 different wisdoms that operate in us all ... the inner man[heart and seat of the Living God dwells when we are gathered into CHRIST BODY that special anointing that is of the substance of the Living Gods ONLY BEGOTTEN SON , ONE of a kind ] and the outer man were the body struggles with death as the ruler of the gods of this world . as death being the last enemy and till death is no more a hindrance .learning to let God rule from the heart as the outer man is perishing ,suffer complete ruin or destruction. and everyone judges in the worldly wisdom the outer man of the flesh
Matt 26
Jesus Prays at Gethsemane
...40Then Jesus returned to the disciples and found them sleeping.
"Were you not able to
keep watch with Me for one hour?"
He asked Peter.
41"
Watch and pray so that you will not enter into temptation. For the spirit is willing, but the body is weak."
42A second time He went away and prayed, "My Father, if this cup cannot pass unless I drink it, may Your will be done."...
Remember Jesus asked them if they also could drink the same cup He was drinking and they said they were able in another place in scriptures , but I do not believe they did not know what they were saying spiritually speaking .
Peter was fixing to be sifted like wheat by satan for the destruction of his flesh , just as Jesus had predicted right beforehand
This can be seen in the 3 times he failed his tests of faithfulness to Jesus . my :2c:
But Jesus went on and told him when he is turned around again/converted change, turn, transform, metamorphose, transfigure, transmute; feed my lambs , sheep but Peter could not do this until after his 3 failures or satan sifting him like wheat was done .I do believe this is when Peter was becoming more spiritual in nature and depending on the HOLY SPIRIT and Wisdom of God and less upon his own , little seperate god like nature of his own mixed with carnal and earthly wisdom .
Jesus had known all along what was going to take place in everything that went down at His cross and Peters too !
The thing for me about Ezekiel 14;14 is when you arrive to read it for yourself and when applies to you personally ,
on matter of what time it is , it is always NOW for you to learn what God considers righteous though His one of a kind Son of God and His sons of men /gods still scattered abroad ...
We can share our faith given to us by the Holy Spirit that we put so much confidence in with others , but it is solely up to GODS HOLY SPIRIT /Wisdom to make us all ONE with Himself . by the scriptures we know it will surly happen :dsunny:
God bless you bro C :HeartThrob:
:2c:thispost has to do with the revealingof the man of sin/lawlessness that must be revealed[2 Thess 2;3,7] and the secret power
of sin/manifestation.
wehavethe celestial hosts[ofwhichonly the spiritof God dwells in..andJesus in the flesh..of which,Jesus said'the prince of this world
has nothing in me.[He alsoknew 'what was 'in' man......when partakingof the TOKOGAE..and'sin'entered...other evil spirits..entered
Adam's flesh as a'hostbody'..and the battle for the mind/heart/control/possesion of the body'temple' began. corruptible means just that
inthat man's vessel is'weak'and'corruptible'inthat thenegative contrastwicked spirits can enter it and dwell there.
these spirits can speak[as they did toJesus during His temptation]andlove toquote the 'wordof God'in a twisted form unto mento
getthem tobelieve the lie..thusenter intothem to rob thetemple/bodyfrom 'prayer'/communionwith God and'fakepeople out..in that
they believeitis God speaking/communicatingwith them[God told me tokill allmychildren..etc] theoffspringofviper were sitting in God's
temple[bodies of religious leadersofJesus day] and accomplished satan's will of killing the heir[Jesus]if you were of God you would
love me,ye areofyour father the devil..and ye desire todohis will.
daughters of menof sin[Babylon]..andmen of sin..are these evil wicked spirits.
when they dwelt in heavenandwar broke out,Michael andtheheavenlyhost cast them outunto the earth..where they
await their final judgement. named dragon..when in heaven..with their constant accusing[see Job] named original serpent when satan
took [possessed]the bodyof a serpent toapproach/seduce Even into trespass.Beast when It began possessing animals bodies and they
became wild/devouring and preying in nature.instead of gentle.and 'manof sin/son of perdition' when it began possessing man's flesh.
sons of God=men[as well as God's holy angels]..daughters of men[of sin] are female/Babylon evil spirits[succubus/incubus] that
through lust attempt an often succeed in possessing men/women.it is easier to get men to agree when they are asleep.[from whence
come the tares? an enemy hath sowed them in the night]sin'increases..numbers of evil spirits[legions]in aman..using man's body as
ahost[God never told satan and his evil ones to be fruitfull and increase[like He instructed man]they are the true lawless ones..they
destroy the temple of God[man'sbody]and God will most certainly destroy them!
the above is just one reason to not judge by the appearance of the flesh..why every hidden thing must be revealed..and why the mystery
of godliness and godlessness must be revealed. Some maynot be able to'bear" this revelation at present..but the hour is late..and
this revelation is revealed just preceding the coming of Christ. the virgin churches have all[10]been comfortably snoozing...but
the 'Bridegroom cometh!" wicks need trimmed[brighter light]and extra vessels of oil is needed.Many are possessed and demonic
madness is running amuck.While we await Him...and His seperating all people[sheep] from these goats[scapegoats]..Hetruly does
take away all the sin of the world!!!!! Setyour captives free! Come quickly Lord Jesus!!!
Quote from: GodIsLove on June 13, 2018, 05:33:43 PM
CST,
I had to look up the Jerry Springer thing, the opera looks terrible, was it well received?
Not sure what you are alluding to with the Christian baker controversy, but honestly to me it's just a cake; if we were to not participate in anything we found evil, we wouldn't buy things like clothes (made in third world sweatshops), diamonds (mined with slave labor), chocolate, coffee etc (same), get vaccinated (use of aborted fetal cell lines in manufacturing), eat meat or dairy (inhumane treatment), watch TV or sports or movies (non-Christian values).
Some or all of the above used to and still does somewhat bother me but we live in a fallen world so we are surrounded by imperfection. It is unavoidable. Should we not bake a cake for an alcoholic, an atheist, an adulterer, a non-Christian, Etc?
Since I'm not clear, what are your thoughts on the issue out of curiosity?
Maybe I was playing devils advocate with the argument that I don't think the world hates us as much as some imply.
I agree that hate biblically doesn't mean hate as we understand it in the modern sense, maybe that's where it all can be resolved.
And maybe I'm arguing out of protest because I don't feel hated and don't want to be hated, I wouldn't rejoice and say I must be pleasing God if everyone disliked me.
People thinking I'm silly, weak, uncool...that's fine with me tho. :Peace2:
Jerry Springer: The Opera was made by the same people as 'South Park' and that other dubious stage musical 'The Book of Mormon' so you can gauge the level of their reverence. I don't know if JSTO was well received but the 'little bit gay' controversy aside I believe it was.
The Christian bakery controversy is a scandal that has forms in both Ireland and the US as I understand. The basic issue is over whether business with a Christian leaning behind them should be allowed to refuse to perform services to customers if they ask them to do something that violates their Christian principles.
In this case, in Ireland a customer went into a bakery owned by a pair of Christians (I may be getting the details slightly wrong) and were asked to make a cake celebrating the customers' gay relationship. They refused on the grounds that they do not support or celebrate gay relationships.
Instead of going and finding another bakery they took the first bakery to court for refusing them service. Now, in Europe so far as I can tell the courts have always found in favour of the customer, the bakery has to treat the customer as any other customer their beliefs can't be considered.
But, if I understand correctly (and I may not have done), a similar case in America recently saw the Supreme Court siding with the bakery on the grounds that the bakery has the right to refuse protected under their constitutional right to practice their belief freely. On this side of the Atlantic we have no such protection so we get stories where nurses aren't allowed to pray for their patients, airline attendants aren't allowed to wear crucifixes and, apocryphally, we have to call Christmas 'Winterval' because not to do so offends non-Christians.
This isn't about the prevalence of sin, whereby we can't move with contributing to, benefiting from or enabling another's wicked without going ridiculously out of our way, this is people who want to make the choices their religion (they believe) demands they make but can't because they have to consider people who don't share that religion.
Paul left a lot of things to personal conscience, he said if you wanted to eat previously unclean food you were free to do so but should respect those who were not comfortable with doing so. So what if those people were suddenly forced to eat unclean food?
I certainly agree I don't like the idea of being hated which is kind of the reason this conversation is continuing, it seems strange the sort of things Jesus is asking not because of the dedication required which I understand but it just sounds like needless suffering.
Quote from: Dandelion on June 14, 2018, 05:17:59 AM
I KNOW Jesus thinks you are very cool! He loved you enough to die on the cross for you.....that makes you very cool!
As far as the baker, I don't think anyone should be forced to do something that conflicts with their religious beliefs, unless somehow it would harm someone else, in which case the law of the land would have to step in.
D.
That doesn't follow, Jesus didn't save us because He thought we're 'very cool'. The Bible is pretty clear that we're very wicked and don't deserve saving. Jesus saves us because it's the right thing to do and He needs no more reason than that.
Now I can when I'm at my most objective believe that I'm 'very cool' because He made me out of all the many people He could have made, I try to believe that even though I consistent feel like I'm final proof against it.
And I can only believe that while rejecting free will, which I tend to do. Because without free will I know I am bound to be the being God made me to be, there is no alternative. With free will I have the power to deviate from whatever God intended from me very easily and become very uncool. Of course the being God intended to create is very cool and no doubt God can save me and then lead some part of me back to that state afterwards but at the end, even if the being that results ahs my memories and experiences it won't be me; I am me and I'm not that malleable.
Quote from: rosered on June 14, 2018, 01:45:31 PM
QuoteThe Sons of God and the daughters of Adam are both just humans. God is making an ironic point about man's dual heritage and their failure to live up to the first half of it.
You are misquoting Ezekiel slightly, God said if Noah, Job and Daniel were living in the day God addressed Ezekiel then they could save only themselves by their righteousness. Obviously this is a bit redundant. If Noah's family hadn't been saved, saving Noah would have been a bit pointless and so far as I can tell Job's righteousness certainly didn't save his sons and daughters God gave them no consideration. I'm not sure how Daniel fits are we meant to believe that his righteousness what actually what protected the three? I'm not sure I'm a bit rusty on Daniel.
Anyway humans will boast whether they're supposed to or not. All humans need God and will not succeed without Him although how God distributes success often seems very strange.
That finishes from yesterday. I'll get back to today later I hope.
Amen CST
Thanks for sharing what is in your heart ....
It really is how we think and what thoughts rise up when we deal with others that expose what is growing in our hearts abundance .
Like food for thought is a metaphor , we have to eat Jesus / Word of God at the tables prepared for us all and it is sweet in our mouths but can become bitter in the belly where it has to be consumed and digested thoroughly .
We sure can be enemies opposing the WORD OF GOD and also be friends and family in the same breath / spirit of life and death by our language / tongues .
That being said , I do believe we have duel natures in one Body , and they struggle for the control over the body .
I do see the sons of God as spiritual in nature and the daughters of men as the carnal nature , causing the confusion by mixing both and creating a Babylon mixture [tree of knowledge of good and evil ] Till the tree of Life is granted to be eaten of again .
Babylon mixture is both prideful and yet weak offspring of the two natures , they are gods but die as men PSALMS 82
http://biblehub.com/bsb/psalms/82.htm (http://biblehub.com/bsb/psalms/82.htm)
The understanding I have come to see better is that the gods must bow the knee and pay homage to the ONE TRUE GOD in order to be gathered in THE LORD JESUS CHRIST , those that are gathered against Him are kings of the earth
as in Adam given the dominion over the earth and given the power to reign as with the Beast for that one hour
Our lives are like one hour to GOD , IF the 1000 years is one day in GODS sight and Adam was given 930 years of mortality he died before his day was done in the Day he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and rose up to be LIKE GOD and know good and evil .
that leaves 70 years of being mortal and that is the tail end of everyones mortal life in the here and now to be weak
Because the flesh is weak , but the Spirit is willing , Gods spirit is willing to save at any time the weak and ignorant and beggarly ...
I am convinced Jesus is speaking metaphorically in these scriptures below and does many, many times in the scriptures
trying to show us spiritually things by comparing them to earthly things by the 2 different wisdoms that operate in us all ... the inner man[heart and seat of the Living God dwells when we are gathered into CHRIST BODY that special anointing that is of the substance of the Living Gods ONLY BEGOTTEN SON , ONE of a kind ] and the outer man were the body struggles with death as the ruler of the gods of this world . as death being the last enemy and till death is no more a hindrance .learning to let God rule from the heart as the outer man is perishing ,suffer complete ruin or destruction. and everyone judges in the worldly wisdom the outer man of the flesh
Matt 26
Jesus Prays at Gethsemane
...40Then Jesus returned to the disciples and found them sleeping.
"Were you not able to keep watch with Me for one hour?"
He asked Peter.
41"Watch and pray so that you will not enter into temptation. For the spirit is willing, but the body is weak."
42A second time He went away and prayed, "My Father, if this cup cannot pass unless I drink it, may Your will be done."...
Remember Jesus asked them if they also could drink the same cup He was drinking and they said they were able in another place in scriptures , but I do not believe they did not know what they were saying spiritually speaking .
Peter was fixing to be sifted like wheat by satan for the destruction of his flesh , just as Jesus had predicted right beforehand
This can be seen in the 3 times he failed his tests of faithfulness to Jesus . my :2c:
But Jesus went on and told him when he is turned around again/converted change, turn, transform, metamorphose, transfigure, transmute; feed my lambs , sheep but Peter could not do this until after his 3 failures or satan sifting him like wheat was done .I do believe this is when Peter was becoming more spiritual in nature and depending on the HOLY SPIRIT and Wisdom of God and less upon his own , little seperate god like nature of his own mixed with carnal and earthly wisdom .
Jesus had known all along what was going to take place in everything that went down at His cross and Peters too !
The thing for me about Ezekiel 14;14 is when you arrive to read it for yourself and when applies to you personally ,
on matter of what time it is , it is always NOW for you to learn what God considers righteous though His one of a kind Son of God and His sons of men /gods still scattered abroad ...
We can share our faith given to us by the Holy Spirit that we put so much confidence in with others , but it is solely up to GODS HOLY SPIRIT /Wisdom to make us all ONE with Himself . by the scriptures we know it will surly happen :dsunny:
God bless you bro C :HeartThrob:
I have little trouble seeing the 'sons of God' as our spritual nature and the daughters of Adam as our carnal nature although I'm not sure what to do with it or how much direct Biblical clarification it has.
I mention that because there is a not small branch of the Christian community that think the 'sons of God' are some group of angels, i.e. wicked human women had relations with soon to be fallen angels as I understand. This is not a premise I buy because it has so little Biblical support.
That said Psalm 82 appears to be misleading you slightly. Hebrew was part of a polytheistic, superstitious community of nations (even if Israel was supposed to be monotheistic) and as such it's language reflects this. There is no actual word for 'god' in Hebrew the word we translate as such 'El' is word that refers to any number of higher, transcendental being that were either in community or in conflict with each other. The conflict between the gods has effects on Earth and if my god defeats your god you are in my power and I am expected to kill you and you are expected to die in loyalty to your defeated god. The words 'Eloah' and 'Elohim' are the plural words for 'god'. But how we actually translate it mistakes the meaning of the Hebrew because of the baggage we bring to the word 'God'.
There are no other gods and they do not bring homage to the One True God although those that formally served them no doubt will. But they don't exist in any capacity and can't bring homage to anything.
A day to us is more like a thousand millennia to God and still that doesn't really do it justice. Moses just says that (Psalm 90:4) because we have such short lifetimes it's not really possible for us to comprehend anything bigger. Certainly not before we knew how old the universe actually was.
As for the type of death Jesus died. Only St. John is believed to have died naturally, the other apostles are held to have been martyred for their belief so I always thought that they mainly did die the sort of death Jesus died although they weren't all martyred by the same mechanism.
I'm not sure anyone really knows what they are saying when they say 'yes' to martyrdom, imagination is enough of an obstacle although I'm sure I'm not up for it.
Bless you too, Rose.
CST
Quote
I have little trouble seeing the 'sons of God' as our spritual nature and the daughters of Adam as our carnal nature although I'm not sure what to do with it or how much direct Biblical clarification it has.
I mention that because there is a not small branch of the Christian community that think the 'sons of God' are some group of angels, i.e. wicked human women had relations with soon to be fallen angels as I understand. This is not a premise I buy because it has so little Biblical support.
It is basic , For me, have found many scriptures that when you look have proof in my opinion it is , ''as gods'' , being evil or good ruling our hearts , Till the TRUE AND LIVING GOD begins to reign ..
It is a great study when you have the other scriptures as'' gods '' plural , Which we all well know by now the scriptures states that there is only ONE TRUE GOD belief by faith that the Holy Spirit teaches us to believe in and scriptures testify of , the basic facts teach us also that , many gods rule the world and all its influences as limited knowledge and wisdom and temporary as earthly sensual and devilish ,being idols of the heart ... where Our True and living God is to be established as seated at within our hearts , beginning of never leaving us or forsaking us from that point on :2c:
QuoteThat said Psalm 82 appears to be misleading you slightly. Hebrew was part of a polytheistic, superstitious community of nations (even if Israel was supposed to be monotheistic) and as such it's language reflects this. There is no actual word for 'god' in Hebrew the word we translate as such 'El' is word that refers to any number of higher, transcendental being that were either in community or in conflict with each other. The conflict between the gods has effects on Earth and if my god defeats your god you are in my power and I am expected to kill you and you are expected to die in loyalty to your defeated god. The words 'Eloah' and 'Elohim' are the plural words for 'god'. But how we actually translate it mistakes the meaning of the Hebrew because of the baggage we bring to the word 'God'.
There are no other gods and they do not bring homage to the One True God although those that formally served them no doubt will. But they don't exist in any capacity and can't bring homage to anything.
I beg to differ somewhat , I shall have no other gods before Me , are as plain as DAY in my opinion and cannot justify this argument any other way as elohim: God, god are idols of the heart it has taken the image of the beast and call it God is the error in my opinion that has caused many to stumble for a long span of time and peoples and nations
they have made a god for everything to worship under the sun and even the sun for that matter ... but as it is stated idols are nothing .... So it goes to show us all , no one really knows the true and Living GOD and heavenly FATHER except the Son / the WORD [same GOD OF PEACE ] and can only be grated by His allowing it to happen , open the scriptures / heaven for us by the HOLY SPIRIT witness in our hearts , everything else is by liars and thieves and violence , gods /idols , given over to their vain imaginations .... not willingly , but are subjected to the pointlessness of it all .Pride caused it and humility will be the reasons for change .
Original Word: אֱלֹהִים
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration:
elohimPhonetic Spelling: (el-o-heem')
Short Definition: God
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
pl. of eloah
Definition
God, god
NASB Translation
divine (1), divine being (1), exceedingly (1), God (2326), god (45), God's (14), goddess (2), godly (1), gods (204), great (2), judges (3), mighty (2), rulers (1), shrine* (1).
Ezek 14 3"Son of man, these men have set up idols in their hearts and put wicked stumbling blocks before their faces. Should I consult with them in any way ? 4 Therefore, speak to them and tell them that this is what the Lord GOD says: 'When any Israelite sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face, and then comes to the prophet, I the LORD will answer him according to his great idolatry,...5so that I may take hold of the hearts of the people of Israel. For
because of their idols, they are all estranged from Me.'... When I think about this scripture I know Paul said Israel was blinded and GOD hid Himself from them so the genile / all other nations are given an opportunity to come in lastly , just as the first [Israel shall come in last ] and the last gentiles shall be first to enter the kingdom of God , it is a prophecy by the Spirit being fulfilled in my own opinion .
QuoteA day to us is more like a thousand millennia to God and still that doesn't really do it justice. Moses just says that (Psalm 90:4) because we have such short lifetimes it's not really possible for us to comprehend anything bigger. Certainly not before we knew how old the universe actually was.
As for the type of death Jesus died. Only St. John is believed to have died naturally, the other apostles are held to have been martyred for their belief so I always thought that they mainly did die the sort of death Jesus died although they weren't all martyred by the same mechanism.
I'm not sure anyone really knows what they are saying when they say 'yes' to martyrdom, imagination is enough of an obstacle although I'm sure I'm not up for it.
Bless you too, Rose.
Blessings bro C .
Well another mystery in my opinion of the True and Living God , gives us the Spirit of prophecy , that is
knowing all things by the testimony of Jesus Christ [ witness] and the Holy Spirit [witness ] both witnesses make us see the TRUTH
Knowing , what was and what is and what will be , we now know there is nothing new under the sun ...
That is the limits of a mortal life in my own opinion , but what is in the SUN /SON Light of the world and knowledge of God and above is the mysteries of GODS desire and can only be revealed by HIS own doing , this being the greater works of the Holy Spirit because He is with the Father now and doing just that reigning and bring back all new Life[born agains sons of God into He kingdom ] from the dead
There a few scriptures that testify of this very thing ! and it more than just exciting to think upon , it is down right glorious!
When Jesus said to Martha , I am the resurrection and the Life , so we know Jesus Christ is the last Day and to me revelation of the Day of the Lord is that book to be opened by the Holy Spirit it is the key of David[ the sure mercies of God , that Paul said about 5Above the ark were the cherubim of glory, overshadowing the mercy seat. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.in Hebrews 9;5 because it was only going to be revealed by the Holy Spirit of God in whom He chooses to do so ] that no man can open and what God opens no man can shut in John 11
...24Martha replied, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life.
He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies. 26And everyone who lives and believes in Me
will never die. Do you believe this?"...
This is the proof that those given in this lifetime are chosen of God now to live forever though Christ and those whom believe in Jesus and die will live because He/JESUS can NEVER DIE ...
In Adam all die and in Christ all shall be made alive , as another prophecy being fulfilled
Jesus testimony/ true witness is full of prophecies being fulfilled , exactly as it was written /world and spoken/ Holy and living /Holy of holies WORD OF GOD though the HOLY SPIRIT in us all .... :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on June 16, 2018, 11:34:56 PM
It is basic , For me, have found many scriptures that when you look have proof in my opinion it is , "as gods" , being evil or good ruling our hearts , Till the TRUE AND LIVING GOD begins to reign ..
It is a great study when you have the other scriptures as" gods " plural , Which we all well know by now the scriptures states that there is only ONE TRUE GOD belief by faith that the Holy Spirit teaches us to believe in and scriptures testify of , the basic facts teach us also that , many gods rule the world and all its influences as limited knowledge and wisdom and temporary as earthly sensual and devilish ,being idols of the heart ... where Our True and living God is to be established as seated at within our hearts , beginning of never leaving us or forsaking us from that point on :2c:
The phrase 'One True God' is almost a redundancy here, all other 'gods' are false and essentially not worthy of the title. There are not many Gods the Bible is clear on this matter; there is 'God' and then there are a much of characters humans make up and call God whether they were or not. I hope to go on to demonstrate this.
Quote from: rosered on June 16, 2018, 11:34:56 PMI beg to differ somewhat , I shall have no other gods before Me , are as plain as DAY in my opinion and cannot justify this argument any other way as elohim: God, god are idols of the heart it has taken the image of the beast and call it God is the error in my opinion that has caused many to stumble for a long span of time and peoples and nations
they have made a god for everything to worship under the sun and even the sun for that matter ... but as it is stated idols are nothing .... So it goes to show us all , no one really knows the true and Living GOD and heavenly FATHER except the Son / the WORD [same GOD OF PEACE ] and can only be grated by His allowing it to happen , open the scriptures / heaven for us by the HOLY SPIRIT witness in our hearts , everything else is by liars and thieves and violence , gods /idols , given over to their vain imaginations .... not willingly , but are subjected to the pointlessness of it all .Pride caused it and humility will be the reasons for change .
Original Word: אֱלֹהִים
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: elohim
Phonetic Spelling: (el-o-heem')
Short Definition: God
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
pl. of eloah
Definition
God, god
NASB Translation
divine (1), divine being (1), exceedingly (1), God (2326), god (45), God's (14), goddess (2), godly (1), gods (204), great (2), judges (3), mighty (2), rulers (1), shrine* (1).
Ezek 14 3"Son of man, these men have set up idols in their hearts and put wicked stumbling blocks before their faces. Should I consult with them in any way ? 4 Therefore, speak to them and tell them that this is what the Lord GOD says: 'When any Israelite sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face, and then comes to the prophet, I the LORD will answer him according to his great idolatry,...5so that I may take hold of the hearts of the people of Israel. For because of their idols, they are all estranged from Me.'...
When I think about this scripture I know Paul said Israel was blinded and GOD hid Himself from them so the genile / all other nations are given an opportunity to come in lastly , just as the first [Israel shall come in last ] and the last gentiles shall be first to enter the kingdom of God , it is a prophecy by the Spirit being fulfilled in my own opinion .
The correct translation of the first commandment is "You shall have no other gods before my face" in more proper English this is "You shall worship no other gods in my sight." To a modern reader there's little difference between these phrases because we take the omniscience of God who sees all things for granted but when Israel was founded these ideas were in their infancy and I suspect not easy for the people to get there head around. Historically 'gods' had a limited sphere of influence in which they operated, that's why in Genesis you have characters encountering God, the text makes this clear, but giving Him different names because they don't recognise Him as the 'One True God' this happens with both genuine encounters with God and encounters that had nothing to do with God but they've decided they do. Before to long you've got loads of gods all in co-operation or competition with each other depending of the disposition of the people that made them up. Isaiah is very clear that idols and not in any capacity gods. They are just things humans have built and have no power. Since God appears to be the only God of His day I know of that prohibited idols, it seems clear that all other 'gods' had idols connected to them and so fall victim to the same criticism that they don't actually exist. Using a definition from a theological dictionary of concordance doesn't change this, sometimes cultures don't think the same and so their vocabulary doesn't contain a word that actually adequately captures what the original word conveyed when it was used. We can only do our best, in those circumstances it's easier to choose your word to push your own theological position rather than the correct use of the word. Especially if the word is correct when used to describe the cultural role of what is described even if nothing was actually connected to that. So these being were worshipped by the described cultures such as the word 'god or 'gods' is an appropriate translation for the context even though there is no actually being (except perhaps Satan) connected to the word.
Using your quote from Ezekiel it might be better to translate the word that we translate as 'gods', idols throughout but that might misconstrue what the writer was trying to convey in that these heathen cultures genuinely worshipped these things, incorrectly, as gods.
Quote from: rosered on June 16, 2018, 11:34:56 PMBlessings bro C .
Well another mystery in my opinion of the True and Living God , gives us the Spirit of prophecy , that is knowing all things by the testimony of Jesus Christ [ witness] and the Holy Spirit [witness ] both witnesses make us see the TRUTH
Knowing , what was and what is and what will be , we now know there is nothing new under the sun ...
That is the limits of a mortal life in my own opinion , but what is in the SUN /SON Light of the world and knowledge of God and above is the mysteries of GODS desire and can only be revealed by HIS own doing , this being the greater works of the Holy Spirit because He is with the Father now and doing just that reigning and bring back all new Life[born agains sons of God into He kingdom ] from the dead
There a few scriptures that testify of this very thing ! and it more than just exciting to think upon , it is down right glorious!
When Jesus said to Martha , I am the resurrection and the Life , so we know Jesus Christ is the last Day and to me revelation of the Day of the Lord is that book to be opened by the Holy Spirit it is the key of David[ the sure mercies of God , that Paul said about 5Above the ark were the cherubim of glory, overshadowing the mercy seat. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.in Hebrews 9;5 because it was only going to be revealed by the Holy Spirit of God in whom He chooses to do so ] that no man can open and what God opens no man can shut in John 11
...24Martha replied, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies.
26And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"...
This is the proof that those given in this lifetime are chosen of God now to live forever though Christ and those whom believe in Jesus and die will live because He/JESUS can NEVER DIE ...
In Adam all die and in Christ all shall be made alive , as another prophecy being fulfilled
Jesus testimony/ true witness is full of prophecies being fulfilled , exactly as it was written /world and spoken/ Holy and living /Holy of holies WORD OF GOD though the HOLY SPIRIT in us all .... :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
I'm not quite sure what you're saying here but I do know that although Jesus can reveal to people He chooses 'all things' I'm pretty sure He has revealed them to nobody. Rather He has revealed different aspects of those things to different people but no-one literally knows all things they couldn't. Some things we just don't need to know.
Bless you, Rose!
I haven't read all this thread but a thought I had is my righteousness (and Daniel's, etc) is the righteousness of Jesus. In Old Testament days, the sacrifices made, were what "imputed" this righteousness to the ones believing in, and during that system. Of course now it's revealed how Messiah actually became that sacrifice. Far superior, the only one (now) ever needed. I figure it was the same for Old Testament believers.. Our faith - in the sacrifice/redemption - is obedience to what God is doing, and in so doing -believing/submitting - we are declared righteous/innocent.. And the Spirit of God changes us. And, as we know, the Spirit of God was active with Old Testament true believers..
:Peace2: just some thoughts..
Quote from: marie glen on June 20, 2018, 05:25:17 PM
I haven't read all this thread but a thought I had is my righteousness (and Daniel's, etc) is the righteousness of Jesus. In Old Testament days, the sacrifices made, were what "imputed" this righteousness to the ones believing in, and during that system. Of course now it's revealed how Messiah actually became that sacrifice. Far superior, the only one (now) ever needed. I figure it was the same for Old Testament believers.. Our faith - in the sacrifice/redemption - is obedience to what God is doing, and in so doing -believing/submitting - we are declared righteous/innocent.. And the Spirit of God changes us. And, as we know, the Spirit of God was active with Old Testament true believers..
:Peace2: just some thoughts..
I do like your thoughts Marie
I have considered men in there very natures[carnalness ] are like beasts before GOD , Peters vision rise Peter kill and eat , GOD CALLED everything clean , mankind is to stupid like a brute beast to realize this error in themselves .
They offer to God sacrifices by killing innocent blood as acceptable to appease Gods wrath
not realizing GOD whats it to stop , HE sent the perfect sacrifice once for all time
Paul was a great example of killing the innocent in the name of GOD in sheer ignorance of Gods desire .
Forgive them Father they do not know what they are doing ..... JESUS was letting everyone know it was finished at the cross the lambs blood we are to eat and drink to have Life in us , and yet no one takes it to heart ....
Or maybe some actually do take it to heart .... LIKE THE UR message , that LOVE is the sheet and covering it is white and PURE and covers all the blood shed from the very beginning .
To err is human, to forgive divine. All people commit sins and make mistakes. God forgives them, and people are acting in a godlike (divine) way when they forgive also . Just Like Jesus .
We all must think as we judge unless you be judged is a real cause and effect ....
Quote from: CST on June 20, 2018, 01:30:39 PM
The phrase 'One True God' is almost a redundancy here, all other 'gods' are false and essentially not worthy of the title. There are not many Gods the Bible is clear on this matter; there is 'God' and then there are a much of characters humans make up and call God whether they were or not. I hope to go on to demonstrate this.
QuoteI'm not quite sure what you're saying here but I do know that although Jesus can reveal to people He chooses 'all things' I'm pretty sure He has revealed them to nobody. Rather He has revealed different aspects of those things to different people but no-one literally knows all things they couldn't. Some things we just don't need to know.
Bless you, Rose!
I tend to believe in an awaking to the Spiritual nature that is the essence of GOD and the pure and divine nature , found solely in JESUS CHRIST / ALL LIFE as the open example for us that is no longer hidden in mysteries of the old testament prophecies , seems everything of the carnal nature opposes GOD and it is all about death , as death holds them captive .
I tend to think of it like this all spirits are from God , but not all spirits are like God
But the perfect Spirit sent to us in the earth from above dwells with us , teaching us LIFE though the Spirit of God by making His Word a living thing from the dead words and works that mean nothing because they are all lies and not of the TRUTH at all , so the LORD Gives us a Spirit of discerning what is of God / truth and what is lies and cuts them off and burns them in the fire of HIS jealousy for us .making a pure and clean and holy family that is of His very nature /seed and inheritance .
How can one
KNOW what is good and what is evil unless we get to experience both two natures in one man ?
Life/ Christ nature and death/carnal nature are yours
1 Cor 3 Worldly Wisdom is nothing , Wisdom of God is everything ...
...21Therefore stop boasting in men.
All things are yours,
22whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future.
All of them belong to you, 23and you belong to Christ, and Christ belongs to God.... For me , to be carnally minded is death and does not seek LIFE but to destroy it !! but we know Life will destroy death when it come to us in the learning experiences of
what both are working in us .....
Romans 8:6-10 ESV
6For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
7
For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit,
if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
10But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin,
the Spirit is life because of righteousness.GODS righteousness though the only sacrifice ever given worthy of GODS approval , that He made Himself , no man ever could , look at Cains /mans effort was an epic failure and killed the life of his brother doing good works ,just Like JESUS , seeing Abel as spiritual , because God accepted his offering .. of lambs blood in the beginning ...
Its all so elementary and straight forward .
GOD BLESS you CST :HeartThrob:
Good post Rose ..... in my opinion, to "not know" something is to be "in darkness" about something and I do not and cannot believe God wants us to remain in the darkness (the not knowing) of anything.
For me, if I believed there are somethings I am not to understand or that I don't need to know, that is what I believe is a limit I can't go beyond, a wall I cannot go beyond, my walk has been stopped ... and I believe He will tear down all walls .... because there is always something more beyond the wall.
but if I view it as only a stumbling block ..... I am not afraid to trip and fall, for I know He will lift me back up to continue my walk and the next time I can step over it or He removes it permanently.
my :2c:
Rick
Quote from: jugghead on June 20, 2018, 09:54:27 PM
Good post Rose ..... in my opinion, to "not know" something is to be "in darkness" about something and I do not and cannot believe God wants us to remain in the darkness (the not knowing) of anything.
For me, if I believed there are somethings I am not to understand or that I don't need to know, that is what I believe is a limit I can't go beyond, a wall I cannot go beyond, my walk has been stopped ... and I believe He will tear down all walls .... because there is always something more beyond the wall.
but if I view it as only a stumbling block ..... I am not afraid to trip and fall, for I know He will lift me back up to continue my walk and the next time I can step over it or He removes it permanently.
my :2c:
Rick
:thumbsup:
Love this scripture and if you can have faith and believe it wow! you got somthing wonderful to expect to keep happening
within !!!
it is a holy thing dwelling in you of God , you are not your own but the Spirit of God dwells in you !!!1 Corinthians 3:9-16
For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.
1 john 5
18We know that anyone born of God does not keep on sinning;
the One who was born of God protects him,
and the evil one cannot touch him. 19We know that we are of God, and that the whole world is under the power of the evil one.
20And we know that
the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true—in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.21 Little children,
keep yourselves from idols
Quote from: marie glen on June 20, 2018, 05:25:17 PM
I haven't read all this thread but a thought I had is my righteousness (and Daniel's, etc) is the righteousness of Jesus. In Old Testament days, the sacrifices made, were what "imputed" this righteousness to the ones believing in, and during that system. Of course now it's revealed how Messiah actually became that sacrifice. Far superior, the only one (now) ever needed. I figure it was the same for Old Testament believers.. Our faith - in the sacrifice/redemption - is obedience to what God is doing, and in so doing -believing/submitting - we are declared righteous/innocent.. And the Spirit of God changes us. And, as we know, the Spirit of God was active with Old Testament true believers..
:Peace2: just some thoughts..
That sounds plausible although we have to remember the vast majority of people abused the sacrificial system and the sacrificial system appeared to be for those who committed what could be called minor sins (in the context) without intent. It's a premise that has always confused me but I don't feel it appropriate to go into that here but, so far as I can tell, you couldn't commit a sin worthy of death and then atone for it by giving a sacrifice. Though sometimes i feel there are parts of the Bible that suggest you could. Nevertheless we do know that by the time of the prophets God was appalled by the sacrificial system due to all the abuses people put it to.
Quote from: rosered on June 20, 2018, 06:48:56 PM
Quote from: CST on June 20, 2018, 01:30:39 PM
The phrase 'One True God' is almost a redundancy here, all other 'gods' are false and essentially not worthy of the title. There are not many Gods the Bible is clear on this matter; there is 'God' and then there are a much of characters humans make up and call God whether they were or not. I hope to go on to demonstrate this.
QuoteI'm not quite sure what you're saying here but I do know that although Jesus can reveal to people He chooses 'all things' I'm pretty sure He has revealed them to nobody. Rather He has revealed different aspects of those things to different people but no-one literally knows all things they couldn't. Some things we just don't need to know.
Bless you, Rose!
I tend to believe in an awaking to the Spiritual nature that is the essence of GOD and the pure and divine nature , found solely in JESUS CHRIST / ALL LIFE as the open example for us that is no longer hidden in mysteries of the old testament prophecies , seems everything of the carnal nature opposes GOD and it is all about death , as death holds them captive .
I tend to think of it like this all spirits are from God , but not all spirits are like God
But the perfect Spirit sent to us in the earth from above dwells with us , teaching us LIFE though the Spirit of God by making His Word a living thing from the dead words and works that mean nothing because they are all lies and not of the TRUTH at all , so the LORD Gives us a Spirit of discerning what is of God / truth and what is lies and cuts them off and burns them in the fire of HIS jealousy for us .making a pure and clean and holy family that is of His very nature /seed and inheritance .
How can one KNOW what is good and what is evil unless we get to experience both two natures in one man ?
Life/ Christ nature and death/carnal nature are yours
1 Cor 3 Worldly Wisdom is nothing , Wisdom of God is everything ...
...21Therefore stop boasting in men.
All things are yours,
22whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future.
All of them belong to you, 23and you belong to Christ, and Christ belongs to God....
For me , to be carnally minded is death and does not seek LIFE but to destroy it !! but we know Life will destroy death when it come to us in the learning experiences of what both are working in us .....
Romans 8:6-10 ESV
6For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
7For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit,
if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
10But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
GODS righteousness though the only sacrifice ever given worthy of GODS approval , that He made Himself , no man ever could , look at Cains /mans effort was an epic failure and killed the life of his brother doing good works ,just Like JESUS , seeing Abel as spiritual , because God accepted his offering .. of lambs blood in the beginning ...
Its all so elementary and straight forward .
GOD BLESS you CST :HeartThrob:
Hmm, I have no problem believing in the awakening to the Spiritual nature (although we may discover some of us are almost awake already) but I'm not some what you mean by all spirits are from God but not all spirits are like God. Mainly because the word 'spirit' has at least three uses in modern theological discussion 1). the Spirit of God which obviously is from God and like God, 2).the spirits in man which He breathed into us and presumably were once in the image of God but may have been diverted or corrupted and 3). other spirit beings which i'm not convinced i literally believe in. Not knowing how many of these you mean I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
CST quote ;
QuoteHmm, I have no problem believing in the awakening to the Spiritual nature (although we may discover some of us are almost awake already) but I'm not some what you mean by all spirits are from God but not all spirits are like God. Mainly because the word 'spirit' has at least three uses in modern theological discussion 1). the Spirit of God which obviously is from God and like God, 2).the spirits in man which He breathed into us and presumably were once in the image of God but may have been diverted or corrupted and 3). other spirit beings which i'm not convinced i literally believe in. Not knowing how many of these you mean I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
The Father all of spirits, but not all spirits are Holy as God is Holy ..
The'' unclean spirits '
' EVIL /b] is mostly as I was referring to CST as the bible refers to Jesus casting them out of humans taken captive by their influences and temptations to destroy our flesh and well being .
Jesus was doing more than removing ,''bad thoughts ''out of humans in my opinion when reading the book of Mark especially ... the unclean spirits are just that impure spirits , not clean or holy .
169 akáthartos (an adjective, derived from 1 /A "not" and 2513 /katharós, "clean, purged") – properly, not pure (because mixed), i.e. adulterated with "a wrong mix" and hence "unclean" (because tainted by sin).
[The antonym, 2508 /kathaírō ("clean"), means "free from wrong mixture" (unadulterated, unmixed).]
Hope this helps be more clear
Sin is a great study to really understand for there are many references to sin in the bible with many ways to see sin as more than just error or missing the mark or guilt offering etc... Hebrew has several other words for sin beyond hata, each with its own specific meaning. The word pesha, or "trespass", means a sin done out of rebelliousness. The word aveira means "transgression". And the word avone, or "iniquity", means a sin done out of moral failing.
Is sin an evil spirit crouching at the door of our hearts and wanting to rule over your soul / life and body ?
With Cain we have to wonder, because he was of the Evil One 1 John 3:12...
Gen 4 ;7
New International Version
If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it."
New Living Translation
You will be accepted if you do what is right. But if you refuse to do what is right, then watch out! Sin is crouching at the door, eager to control you. But you must subdue it and be its master."
English Standard Version
If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is contrary to you, but you must rule over it."
Berean Study Bible
If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you refuse to do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; you are its object of desire, but you must master it."
New American Standard Bible
"If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."
King James Bible
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Christian Standard Bible
If you do what is right, won't you be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it."
Contemporary English Version
If you had done the right thing, you would be smiling. But you did the wrong thing, and now sin is waiting to attack you like a lion. Sin wants to destroy you, but don't let it!
Good News Translation
If you had done the right thing, you would be smiling; but because you have done evil, sin is crouching at your door. It wants to rule you, but you must overcome it."
Holman Christian Standard Bible
If you do what is right, won't you be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it."
International Standard Version
If you do what is appropriate, you'll be accepted, won't you? But if you don't do what is appropriate, sin is crouching near your doorway, turning toward you. Now as for you, will you take dominion over it?"
NET Bible
Is it not true that if you do what is right, you will be fine? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at the door. It desires to dominate you, but you must subdue it."
New Heart English Bible
If you do well, will it not be lifted up? If you do not do well, sin crouches at the door. Its desire is for you, but you are to rule over it."
GOD'S WORD® Translation
If you do well, won't you be accepted? But if you don't do well, sin is lying outside your door ready to attack. It wants to control you, but you must master it."
JPS Tanakh 1917
If thou doest well, shall it not be lifted up? and if thou doest not well, sin coucheth at the door; and unto thee is its desire, but thou mayest rule over it.'
New American Standard 1977
"If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."
Jubilee Bible 2000
If thou doest good, it shall certainly be accepted; and if thou doest not good, sin lies at the door. And his desire shall be unto thee, but thou must rule over him.
King James 2000 Bible
If you do well, shall you not be accepted? and if you do not well, sin lies at the door. And you shall be its desire, and you must rule over it.
American King James Version
If you do well, shall you not be accepted? and if you do not well, sin lies at the door. And to you shall be his desire, and you shall rule over him.
American Standard Version
If thou doest well, shall it not be lifted up? and if thou doest not well, sin coucheth at the door: and unto thee shall be its desire, but do thou rule over it.
Douay-Rheims Bible
If thou do well, shalt thou not receive? but if ill, shall not sin forthwith be present at the door? but the lust thereof shall be under thee, and thou shalt have dominion over it.
Darby Bible Translation
If thou doest well, will not [thy countenance] look up [with confidence]? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door; and unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
English Revised Version
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin coucheth at the door: and unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Webster's Bible Translation
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And to thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
World English Bible
If you do well, will it not be lifted up? If you don't do well, sin crouches at the door. Its desire is for you, but you are to rule over it."
Young's Literal Translation
Is there not, if thou dost well, acceptance? and if thou dost not well, at the opening a sin-offering is crouching, and unto thee its desire, and thou rulest over it.'
With all these translations we begin to get the idea , With the Help of the Lord we can begin to reign with Him already doing so , not of ourselves it seems we cannot rule over sin without Gods helping us ...
For me, in my opinion, what I see in: "all spirits are from God but not all spirits are like God" is:
a spirit of judgment
We have all been given a spirit of judgment, and we have all been given a spirit of freedom, but the combination of the two can be lethal, meaning the combination of the two can cause death.
Do we, in our spirit of freedom take the spirit of judgment and use it to judge another
OR
Do we, in our spirit of freedom take the spirit of judgment and use it to judge ourselves
And what are we judging in another or in ourselves, is it not what is righteous (good) and what is unrighteous (evil)? In other words: are we not judging what is sin and what is not sin?
We are given the freedom to judge, but do we use it to judge others or do we use it to judge just sin?
What I believe, through the work of Jesus Christ upon the cross, we are now given a freedom to judge sin without judging the person
In which, this is what I see when Jesus speaks of "the speck and the plank in the eye", we can see the speck (sin) in the eye of another, but do we see the plank (the bigger sin) in our own eye, that being the judgment of the person.
We first have to remove our own judgment of the person (the plank from our own eye) before we can see clearly as to how to remove the small judgment (speck) in the eye of another.
The Spirit of judgment that is from God, separates the sin from the person and righteously judges sin not the person
The spirit of judgement that is of man, cannot separate the two in his own mind thereby judging sin and judging the person at the same time.
Thereby all spirits are from God, including the spirit of judgment, but not all spirits are like God, judging only sin and not the person.
My :2c:
This was written as Rose was posting
Amen Rose! :thumbsup: I think it helps to understand any verse to read many of the translations! For the verse you quoted I like the Contemporary English Version best! - If you had done the right thing, you would be smiling. But you did the wrong thing, and now sin is waiting to attack you like a lion. Sin wants to destroy you, but don't let it!
Amen Jugghead! Great post! :thumbsup:
Quote from: rosered on June 21, 2018, 09:08:45 PM
CST quote ;QuoteHmm, I have no problem believing in the awakening to the Spiritual nature (although we may discover some of us are almost awake already) but I'm not some what you mean by all spirits are from God but not all spirits are like God. Mainly because the word 'spirit' has at least three uses in modern theological discussion 1). the Spirit of God which obviously is from God and like God, 2).the spirits in man which He breathed into us and presumably were once in the image of God but may have been diverted or corrupted and 3). other spirit beings which i'm not convinced i literally believe in. Not knowing how many of these you mean I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
The Father all of spirits, but not all spirits are Holy as God is Holy ..
The" unclean spirits '' EVIL /b] is mostly as I was referring to CST as the bible refers to Jesus casting them out of humans taken captive by their influences and temptations to destroy our flesh and well being .
Jesus was doing more than removing ,"bad thoughts "out of humans in my opinion when reading the book of Mark especially ... the unclean spirits are just that impure spirits , not clean or holy .
169 akáthartos (an adjective, derived from 1 /A "not" and 2513 /katharós, "clean, purged") – properly, not pure (because mixed), i.e. adulterated with "a wrong mix" and hence "unclean" (because tainted by sin).
[The antonym, 2508 /kathaírō ("clean"), means "free from wrong mixture" (unadulterated, unmixed).]
Hope this helps be more clear
Sin is a great study to really understand for there are many references to sin in the bible with many ways to see sin as more than just error or missing the mark or guilt offering etc... Hebrew has several other words for sin beyond hata, each with its own specific meaning. The word pesha, or "trespass", means a sin done out of rebelliousness. The word aveira means "transgression". And the word avone, or "iniquity", means a sin done out of moral failing.
Is sin an evil spirit crouching at the door of our hearts and wanting to rule over your soul / life and body ?
With Cain we have to wonder, because he was of the Evil One 1 John 3:12...
Gen 4 ;7
New International Version
If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it."
New Living Translation
You will be accepted if you do what is right. But if you refuse to do what is right, then watch out! Sin is crouching at the door, eager to control you. But you must subdue it and be its master."
English Standard Version
If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is contrary to you, but you must rule over it."
Berean Study Bible
If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you refuse to do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; you are its object of desire, but you must master it."
New American Standard Bible
"If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."
King James Bible
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Christian Standard Bible
If you do what is right, won't you be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it."
Contemporary English Version
If you had done the right thing, you would be smiling. But you did the wrong thing, and now sin is waiting to attack you like a lion. Sin wants to destroy you, but don't let it!
Good News Translation
If you had done the right thing, you would be smiling; but because you have done evil, sin is crouching at your door. It wants to rule you, but you must overcome it."
Holman Christian Standard Bible
If you do what is right, won't you be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it."
International Standard Version
If you do what is appropriate, you'll be accepted, won't you? But if you don't do what is appropriate, sin is crouching near your doorway, turning toward you. Now as for you, will you take dominion over it?"
NET Bible
Is it not true that if you do what is right, you will be fine? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at the door. It desires to dominate you, but you must subdue it."
New Heart English Bible
If you do well, will it not be lifted up? If you do not do well, sin crouches at the door. Its desire is for you, but you are to rule over it."
GOD'S WORD® Translation
If you do well, won't you be accepted? But if you don't do well, sin is lying outside your door ready to attack. It wants to control you, but you must master it."
JPS Tanakh 1917
If thou doest well, shall it not be lifted up? and if thou doest not well, sin coucheth at the door; and unto thee is its desire, but thou mayest rule over it.'
New American Standard 1977
"If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."
Jubilee Bible 2000
If thou doest good, it shall certainly be accepted; and if thou doest not good, sin lies at the door. And his desire shall be unto thee, but thou must rule over him.
King James 2000 Bible
If you do well, shall you not be accepted? and if you do not well, sin lies at the door. And you shall be its desire, and you must rule over it.
American King James Version
If you do well, shall you not be accepted? and if you do not well, sin lies at the door. And to you shall be his desire, and you shall rule over him.
American Standard Version
If thou doest well, shall it not be lifted up? and if thou doest not well, sin coucheth at the door: and unto thee shall be its desire, but do thou rule over it.
Douay-Rheims Bible
If thou do well, shalt thou not receive? but if ill, shall not sin forthwith be present at the door? but the lust thereof shall be under thee, and thou shalt have dominion over it.
Darby Bible Translation
If thou doest well, will not [thy countenance] look up [with confidence]? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door; and unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
English Revised Version
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin coucheth at the door: and unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Webster's Bible Translation
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And to thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
World English Bible
If you do well, will it not be lifted up? If you don't do well, sin crouches at the door. Its desire is for you, but you are to rule over it."
Young's Literal Translation
Is there not, if thou dost well, acceptance? and if thou dost not well, at the opening a sin-offering is crouching, and unto thee its desire, and thou rulest over it.'
With all these translations we begin to get the idea , With the Help of the Lord we can begin to reign with Him already doing so , not of ourselves it seems we cannot rule over sin without Gods helping us ...
Obviously 'unclean spirits' and more than bad thoughts; they're a collection on pervasive and converging thought processes that together make up various mental health problems. They're certainly not demons or, if they are the chances are that you've got one and I've got one, everyone on the forums got one, at this stage most everyone in the world's got or or possibly more in which case how can we possibly trust each other without thinking that what they say is probably directed by a demon?
The various ways our scholars imagine the different words for 'sin' should translate is certainly an interesting study but, unless the text is self-explaining somewhere, and i'm sure it isn't, they've seemly made a best guess based on someone else's (a non-Hebrew's) difference forms of 'sin'.
And you can quote Genesis 4 in as many translations as you like but it doesn't change the fact that the warning is in exactly the same form as the one given to the Woman in the previous chapter.
And only one spirit is Holy: God, the Holy Spirit. That is why He is called 'The' Holy Spirit.
Quote from: GodIsLove on June 05, 2018, 04:09:08 PM
You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'h 39But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
How are we to actually live this out?
Does Jesus's teachings allow for self defense or violence/killing in war?
I would tend to say that the Old Testament does but Jesus's teachings don't.
So again, how do we live this out?
It says that Jesus was sent only to the Lost sheep of the House of Israel. ... So this isn't something that concerns me or that I would try to live out. He isn't talking to me or you.
Also Jesus apparently overturned the tables of the money lenders and drove them all out of the temple with a whip. Was that turning the other cheek...
The way I see it is that Jesus came to bring in a better covenant so after His resurrection that dividing wall between the two (Israel and gentiles) was torn down.
And He was sent to be the savior or the whole world, not just Israel. And He paid the price for our sins, and not just ours but for the sins of the whole world.
IMO The Old Testament taught a community of people how to live as such.
The law was about both pleasing God and making space for one another by respecting the gift given by God to each and to all.
The prophets continually illuminated the law, focusing on the essence of it(love) when Israel would sink into religion or the corruption of the Gentiles, and calling the community back to love and honor between the members of the family, the community and God who was their oneness and union.
Jesus came with the words of the prophets in His heart(because He is the Logos and their words had come from Him in the first place) and transcended the law as the actual form transcends the shadow of that form, and at the cross displayed the heart and soul of the law in a way so pure and bright that any who would "Come, follow Me" would transcend the law with Him, because perfect love casts out all fear and fear has to do with judgment- and love does no ill to its neighbor so that is the day dawning and the morning star arising in our hearts.
In love, there is no division, no Jew, no Gentile, and Jesus spread His arms wide on that cross to invite everyone into the community of the kingdom of God.
Like Bushy said. :LH:
:thumbsup: Amen!