tHEY KNOW not WHAT THEY DO

[Nathan]

When it says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, I see it as carnality cannot enter the kingdom.

Yeah, but chaning robes has nothing to do with carnality.

Sure it does, it's a symbolic picture of being clothed in righteousness.  We're still the same "us" under the clothes that the Father puts on us, but it's a proclamation of the transformation that his power has done "for" us and even "in" us.

[Nathan]

I meant carnality, as in evil, not exclusively lust.

But you brought a good point that I have wondered about and that is,

ok lets say an unholy man dies, their spirit lives on, so their character is still has pride, arrogance, et etc. All these traits can be demonstrated without needing a body, but fornication/carnality on the other hand, needs a body. So I am not sure how a unclean spirit would still have lusts, fornication type sins, maybe they just crave it, but cannot have it.

For every sin is outside the body, but he that fornicates sins against his own body.

I don't think any part of any sinful nature crosses over to the spiritual realm . . .I think it's all bound to "this" realm.  Death releases us from these bodies that are so influenced by lusts and carnality.

[jabcat]

Really?  "That's" the gospel message?  It's awfully close to the ET doctrines isn't it?  "Jesus forgives you, but you need to repent before reconciliation in you can take place."   :dontknow:  I can't see myself putting limitations on how far the reaches of God's power, grace, mercy and redemption will go whether or not my tiny little brain can comprehend it.  Our "logic" may lay out conditions to how far his hand reaches in our lives, but praise be to God, he doesn't hold that against us. 

In every case where redemption is concerned, it's effects are not based on the one in need of the redemption.  As has been discussed the soldiers who did the deed in murdering Jesus were not repentant when Jesus prayed that prayer.  It doesn't say they did later, but it also doesn't indicate they did.  But even when Abraham, he was called righteous even when he was in an unrighteous state. 

I see our purpose here is to proclaim the greatness of God's unconditional love and mercy, rather than sharing our assumption of requirements with  people who don't even have a relationship with God in the first place.  What if there are no preconditions expected of men?  What if God's love is just that great where even men who are the worst of sinners could be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb without also those on the receiving end of that redemption having to position themselves to recieve that redemption?  How great would "that" be???

I personally don't believe God setting a condition for repentance and for every knee to bow and every tongue confess is "close to ET at all".  I believe it can be shown scripturally.  J. Preston Eby writes well on it in his Lake of Fire teachings.  http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheLakeofFire-Eby.htm

I also don't believe people "have to position themselves", but I do believe the scriptures teach that the Holy Spirit convicts one of their sins and their need for a savior - then God provides the faith to believe and "turn", i.e., repent.  It's a bit of a mystery, in that there is a reaction on the receiver's part, but I also believe that reaction is initiated by God - when it's that person's time (every man in his own order).  It's not our effort, but all one needs to do is review multiple scriptures that show a response to the Spirit's call- still, orchestrated, enabled, and empowered by God.

[eaglesway]

ET'rs don't believe repentence Or any kind of faith Or any kind of reconciliation is available to Anyone after physical death. To compare someone to ETrs, when they believe EVERY SINGLE BEING will be reconciled to God through Christ is a stretch- even if they do view "every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess...." or that "every adversary will be subjected" from a different perspective. When they asked Peter, "Men and brethren what must we do?" He told them- and He was still in the glory of the first outpouring- full of the Spirit of God. Repentance is a change of viewpoint, confession is a testimony to a new perspective- a manifestation of revelation. It is frequently accompanied by sorrow for sins past  but I don't think it always is. I do think it is always a change of perspective and an inward "bowing of the knee" to the Lord Jesus.

[WhiteWings]

When it says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, I see it as carnality cannot enter the kingdom.

Yeah, but chaning robes has nothing to do with carnality.

Sure it does, it's a symbolic picture of being clothed in righteousness.  We're still the same "us" under the clothes that the Father puts on us, but it's a proclamation of the transformation that his power has done "for" us and even "in" us.

I don't see it that way because the priests/saints change robes when they go in/out of the sanctuary. They change robes AFTER they became priests/saints. The changing of robes is not about becoming priests.
It's more about doing different jobs/duties as a priest/saint. Then they God commands them to wear wool He doesn't mean the have to start acting like sinners.
Below a quote from what I wrote in another thread

Just a wild guess. Linen=spiritual bodies. Wool=natural bodies. :mshock:

^ACVEzekiel 44
15 But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, who kept the charge of my sanctuary when the sons of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister to me. And they shall stand before me to offer to me the fat an
16 they shall enter into my sanctuary, and they shall come near to my table, to minister to me, and they shall keep my charge.
17 And it shall be that, when they enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen garments, and no wool shall come upon them, while they minister in the gates of the inner court, and within.
18 They shall have linen headdresses upon their heads, and shall have linen breeches upon their loins. They shall not gird themselves with [anything that causes] sweat.
19 And when they go forth into the outer court, even into the outer court to the people, they shall put off their garments in which they minister, and lay them in the holy chambers. And they shall put on other garments, that they not

[WhiteWings]

I personally don't believe God setting a condition for repentance and for every knee to bow and every tongue confess is "close to ET at all".  I believe it can be shown scripturally.

Depends a bit on what you see as "setting a condition" and how effective that condition is.
If I read verses like ''be judged how you judged others" and "what you forgive others shall be forgivven to you" I get an impression God's courtroom is a hall of mirrors. A person is confronted with him/herself. Is that "set a condition" ?

[thinktank]

[I don't think any part of any sinful nature crosses over to the spiritual realm . . .I think it's all bound to "this" realm.  Death releases us from these bodies that are so influenced by lusts and carnality.

what about this scripture?


Zechariah 3

1And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

2And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

3Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

4And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

5And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.

6And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying,

7Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.

8Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH

[Nathan]

[I don't think any part of any sinful nature crosses over to the spiritual realm . . .I think it's all bound to "this" realm.  Death releases us from these bodies that are so influenced by lusts and carnality.

what about this scripture?


Zechariah 3

1And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

2And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

3Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

4And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

5And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.

6And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying,

7Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.

8Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH

I'm not following your line of thought with this  .. . are you saying that you see this passage pointing to a person who walks an ungodly line continues to be ungodly after death?  I don't see the connection.

[WhiteWings]

[I don't think any part of any sinful nature crosses over to the spiritual realm . . .I think it's all bound to "this" realm.  Death releases us from these bodies that are so influenced by lusts and carnality.

what about this scripture?

Does satan have fhilty garments.
^ACVJob 1
6 Now it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before LORD, that Satan also came among them.

[thinktank]

Doesn't the verse show that in the spiritual realm, sin still exists?

[WhiteWings]

Surely the aim is that sin vanishes.
If one has the opinion that the White Thron e judgement takes place in the spiritual realm then it mean billions of siners enter that realm.
If we see New Jerusalem (also know as New Jersey by Molly :winkgrin:) as spiritual then the sinners stay outside.
I don't know. One think I do know; seeing changing garments as a switch from sinner to saint is to black and white.

[thinktank]

Perhaps we should look deeper. Since paul talked about outer garments. My question is what are these garments that Joshuah the High priest has?
If Joshuah took off these garments what would be left?

Some verse in the bible talk about nakedness and people seeing their shame. But Joshuah was clothed with new clean garments and given a diadem.

So maybe the garment change is black and white, but that which in underneath, stays the same and is gradual change.
:2c:

[WhiteWings]

Perhaps we should look deeper. Since paul talked about outer garments. My question is what are these garments that Joshuah the High priest has?
If Joshuah took off these garments what would be left?

That's very philosophical question TT.
Who is TT? If TT changes skin color is he still TT? Is baby TT the same TT as senior TT? Is TT in a raincoat the same TT as in a t-shirt?
Those may sound like odd questions. Just try to answer them for yourself.

So maybe the garment change is black and white, but that which in underneath, stays the same and is gradual change.

I think there at least 3 garment changes in the Bible.
1. The verses I quoted are about dressing correctly for the job. When you are doing gardening you wear different clothes than during your wedding.

2. Jesus also changed garments when He resurrected. From second rate earth fabric to class A+ fabric. (I must say I wonder if Jesus really got a new body... His old body was gone.)

3. Changing suit likely also signifies conversion. In that I agree with you it can be/is gradual.

Note: Jesus also changed garments but in His case it had nothing to do with becoming sinless because He was sinless before and afer death. So nothing really changed.

[Nathan]

[I don't think any part of any sinful nature crosses over to the spiritual realm . . .I think it's all bound to "this" realm.  Death releases us from these bodies that are so influenced by lusts and carnality.

what about this scripture?

Does satan have fhilty garments.
^ACVJob 1
6 Now it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before LORD, that Satan also came among them.

Yeah, this verse always gets me because people love to use it to prove there is "a" devil/satan . . . here's my problem . . .Jesus cried out on the cross "My God, My God why have you forsaken me!!"  Because, as everyone knows, God can not be in the presence of sin, not even look upon it.  So when Jesus "became" sin God had to turn his back on him . . .and yet . . . here we are in Job saying that not only did God "not" turn his back on sin . . .he let's the devil come right up to heaven IN the throne room and DICKER with him about who he can and who he can't attack.

You can't have it both ways. 

As to Zechariah . . . what?  He's caught up in the spirit, that's obvious for all of us to see, and in the spirit, he sees this priest who had become covered in earthiness and of course, there is satan again . . .same as Job, my argument there would again be the same.  How is it that this scene can even take place if God can't look upon sin?  And how is it that Satan can "be" in God's presence and not be purified?  Not be changed?  How is it that this satan isn't affected at all?  He was evil going in to God's presence and he was evil coming out.  Is satan so great that even God can't affect him?  We don't hear satan arguing at all here . . .just stating the fact that he's there is enough for people to focus in on the idea that he's a deity. 

Keeping in mind also, these references are all old testament . . .before Christ came and finished his purpose on earth, got complete authority in everying on, under, and above the earth . . .I believe what happened on the cross changed how things were done behind the scenes in the spirit as well.  I no longer believe that a prince of Persia intersects with an angel with a message on his way to a saint and get's postponed due to warring in the heavenlies . . .I believe Christ put an exclamation point on where the authority is 2000 years ago and the order of things hasn't been the same since.  The veil was torn . . .everything changed from that day forward . . .at least that's how I see it to be.  But again, the original argument was pertaining to sin remaining after death . . .and my understanding on it remains the same . . death is the last enemy destroyed.  Jesus did that through his resurrection as well.  So now, when this body passes over through the door of natural death . . .my spirit is freed from the things that had me restrained while in the flesh because carnality is limited to the flesh, not the spirit.  Tree of knowledge versus tree of life, the serpent is identified with the tree of knowledge, he's limited to only one realm.

[sheila]

   EVERBODY'S OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS IS AS FILTHY RAGS.....nobody up there is going to say...your rags are dirtier then mine

    each is given a garment like Christ..like the prodigal

[Nathan]

That answers TT's question he asked yesterday on another thread about whether or not sexual sin is worse than general sin, the scripture he quoted was something Paul was saying about how sexual sin was sinning against the body or something of that nature.  I can't remember the details or even the name of the thread . . . but what you just said Sheila is a very powerful point in that it means Hitler is no worse and no better than . . .Mother Theresa when it comes to unworthiness. 

[thinktank]

Hello Nathan. Wow it feels weird you saying I said that yesterday, it felt like I said it only a few hours ago. But what I meant was that Paul said that he who .. here


1 Corinthians 6:18-20

King James Version (KJV)


18Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.


I did not say it is a worse sin, simply saying that the sin requires a body. Other sins are outside the body.
So it's possible for other sins to continue after the body dies, but perhaps impossible to commit fornication sins, since the body is dead.

[thinktank]

   EVERBODY'S OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS IS AS FILTHY RAGS.....nobody up there is going to say...your rags are dirtier then mine

    each is given a garment like Christ..like the prodigal

Yes if they have garments.


Revelation 16:15
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame


Mathew 22
11And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

12And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14For many are called, but few are chosen.

[Nathan]

Hello Nathan. Wow it feels weird you saying I said that yesterday, it felt like I said it only a few hours ago. But what I meant was that Paul said that he who .. here


1 Corinthians 6:18-20

King James Version (KJV)


18Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.


I did not say it is a worse sin, simply saying that the sin requires a body. Other sins are outside the body.
So it's possible for other sins to continue after the body dies, but perhaps impossible to commit fornication sins, since the body is dead.

This still has no ligical sense.  "If" when we die we are immediately with the Lord as Paul also says, then how can you be with the Lord and continue carrying sin at the same time.  For me, sin is in direct connection with carnality, carnality is only in affect in the realm of death and decay . . the realm of the flesh.  When we come to the end of our life in the flesh, we cross over into the spirit and leave all the influences of carnality behind us.

[CHB]

Hi All,

Where does it say that "God cannot look upon sin"? I cannot find this. Also, in (Job 15:15) it says "Behold he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, THE HEAVENS ARE NOT CLEAN IN HIS SIGHT.  (Job 4:18) Behold he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly. (Job 25: 5) Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; YEA THE STARS ARE NOT PURE IN HIS SIGHT.

(Hab. 1:15)Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: {or grievance}  WHEREFORE LOOKETH THOU UPON THEM THAT DEAL TREACHEROUSLY.

As far as Jesus saying while he was on the cross  "my God my God why hast thou forsaken me". I don't think this is what Jesus said at all.  Jesus said "my Father never leaves me alone because I always do the things that are pleasing to him". 

CHB

[WhiteWings]

As far as Jesus saying while he was on the cross  "my God my God why hast thou forsaken me". I don't think this is what Jesus said at all.  Jesus said "my Father never leaves me alone because I always do the things that are pleasing to him".

"My God, My God for this I was kept" - click

I find that translation much more logical.
In the usual translation Jesus has doubt and/or disagreement with Father. Very unlike Jesus I would say...

[Nathan]

I don't know "where" Scripture says that about God not being able to look up on sin . . .I know churches preach it as I've heard them directly.  But I don't know "where" they pull it from.

The passages in Job, again, before the affects of the cross . . .

As for translation issues . . .I'd never heard of that translation you brought out here WW, that does make it interesting should it be "the" accurate usage.  I've always seen it to merely be the natural, the carnal, the fleshly part in that Jesus was all God and all man, that it was the man in him that was crying out, just as I see it to be the same carnal part in him that led him into the wilderness.  He couldn't be all man and all God if there weren't times we'd see that part of man in him at one point or another.  I think it was also his flesh that was asking for the cup to pass from him . . .he knew the only reason to come and give us resurrection power would be through the pain of death, so for me, regardless of where he was spiritually, his flesh was still having desires of it's own.

[WhiteWings]

"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani"
This is a quote in Aramaic -- meaning "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me" -- attributed in the New Testament to Jesus as he was crucified. In English translation, these words also comprise the beginning of the Twenty-Second Psalm.
Matthew 27:46 - ηλι ηλι λαμα σαβαχθανι (/eli eli lama sabachthani/, later Aramaic "E-lee e-lee l-maa saa-baach-taa-nee?")
Matthew 27:46 (Lamsa translation)- ηλι ηλι λαμανα σαβαχθανι (/eli eli lamana sabachthani/, later Aramaic "E-lee e-lee l-maa-naa saa-baach-taa-nee?")
The late Aramaic Bible researcher George Lamsa claimed that the traditional "forsaken" interpretation is a mistake in the Aramaic scribing that was transferred to later transcriptions. Lamsa claimed that "the correct translation from Aramaic should be "Eli, Eli, lemana shabakthani" or "My God, my God, for this [purpose] I was spared!" or "...for such a purpose have you kept me!") According to Lamsa's translation, that rather than a "loss of faith" Christ meant, to say "so this is my destiny." 
Rocco Errico writes about the Aramaic spoken in the recent The Passion of the Christ film: "The Aramaic text does not say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" [Jesus'] words were not a question but a declaration: "My God, my God, for this I was spared! [or "This was my destiny]"..."Interestingly, the recent TV movie Judas portrayed these words correctly."
Among most Christians the former interpretation is still believed to be correct, and the newer Lamsa interpretation, largely unknown to most Christians, and may be considered unusual and even heretical.
Transliterative differences
"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
"My God, my God, [for what reason] have you [forsaken] me?"
"My God, my God, [for what purpose] have thou [] me?"
"My God, my God, [for what (a) purpose] have you [] me!
"My God, my God, [for what (a) purpose] have you [kept] me!
"My God, my God, [for such] [a purpose] was I [kept]!"
"My God, my God, for this [purpose] I was spared!

[Nathan]

Heretical?  If they think it's heretical . . .then I'm all for it.  Seems most everything they think as accurate for me, most of it is just the opposite anyway.

[jabcat]

[  "If" when we die we are immediately with the Lord as Paul also says, then how can you be with the Lord and continue carrying sin at the same time.  For me, sin is in direct connection with carnality, carnality is only in affect in the realm of death and decay . . the realm of the flesh.  When we come to the end of our life in the flesh, we cross over into the spirit and leave all the influences of carnality behind us.

Talking about the saved, right?  I could see that, but I still believe in a time of correction for the unsaved, to bring them to a point of confession of Jesus as Lord.