Tentmaker Forum

I was wondering yesterday, Jesus tells us that the sheep hear His voice and recognize Truth. When I heard about UR, I did not fight back, it came as so right, so true, I recognized Jesus' voice right there.

Is it possible that there are a lot more religious folks that we think and that they look like sheep in every aspect but are acting unconsciously (because they sincerely believe to be sheep)?

Or are they just veiled?

Because, they judge without hearing first and when they hear they refuse all truth.

Can sheep judge sheep? Maybe we are the veiled sheep...
Lots are veiled because they are the ones gnashing their teeth (http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/hodgesgn.htm)

(btw what about the goat?)

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 18, 2010, 05:22:02 PM
Can sheep judge sheep? Maybe we are the veiled sheep...
Lots are veiled because they are the ones gnashing their teeth (http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/hodgesgn.htm)

(btw what about the goat?)

Well that's already my question, can we judge who's a sheep and who's a goat?

I know we are all veiled about a lot of Truth because we get revelations everyday.
But Jesus said the sheep hears and recognises the Shepherd's voice.

The Shepherd has sheep of His flock but also unites the sheep of the other flock.
If humanity are sheep of one of the two flocks; then who are the goats?
Goats are also clean animals because God accepted them for sacrifice.

Early Christians did even draw Jesus as a Shepherd with a goat on his shoulder (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8166.msg96230#msg96230)

Just a note of interest!

The Greek word used in the passages talking about the sheep on his right going into life, and the goats on his left going into the aionion chastening;

The word for goat is "eriphia" (and variations, lol...Greek grammar and all that), which is to say "kid", a baby goat.  They aren't adult goats, but the sheep aren't called lambs, they are adult sheep.  The word for sheep is "probata", where as in revelation the word for lamb is "arnion".

In all of the New Testament, the only other time a goat that is not a kid, or eriphia is mentioned, is in Hebrews, when it speaks of the blood of he-goats and bulls for sacrifices, the word for he-goat being "tragon".

So you have adult sheep who ministered to the "needs" of Jesus, the sheep doing to others as unto the Lord.  And then you have kids, baby goats/young goats, who haven't, who are sent to be chastised.

Its kind of curious...that this came up just a few days after I stumbled upon it in the greek readings.

Very interesting Lefein. I checked it and it remains to be seen that the Bible speaks of sheep and goats....
Seems like the verse is about young and old (in Christ's teachings)
Matthew 25:33 And he will set, the sheep, indeed, on his right hand, but, the goats, on the left.

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πρόβατον
probaton/sheep
Thayer Definition:
1) any four footed, tame animal accustomed to graze, small cattle
1a) a sheep, and so always in the NT  <==== Is that a fact or doctrine?
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: probably from a presumed. derivative of G4260
Citing in TDNT: 6:689, 936

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πρόβατον
próbaton/sheep; gen. probátou, neut. noun from probaínō (G4260), to go before, walk ahead. Whatever walks forward. In the Ionic and Doric usages it was spoken of quadrupeds (in distinction from bipeds, and things flying, creeping, or swimming).
Generally, tá próbata were animals, but especially smaller animals such as sheep and goats  (Mat 7:15, "in the dress of sheep" [a.t.]; Mat 9:36; Mat 10:16; Mat 12:11-12; Mat 18:12; Mar 6:34; Luk 15:4, Luk 15:6; Joh 2:14-15; Joh 10:1-4, Joh 10:12-13; Act 8:32; Rom 8:36; 1Pe 2:25; Rev 18:13; Sept.: Gen 12:16; Gen 13:5; Exo 12:3 ff.). In Attic and NT usage sheep are distinguished from goats (Mat 25:32-33). Figuratively of those under the care and watch of someone as sheep under a shepherd (Mat 10:6; Mat 15:24; Mat 26:31; Mar 14:27; Joh 10:7-8, Joh 10:11, Joh 10:15-16; Joh 21:16-17; Heb 13:20).
In some texts as in Joh 21:16-17 the word is found in its diminutive form, probátion, little sheep. This is to be distinguished from arníon (G721), lamb. Probátion was used as a term of endearment. Sheep, on account of their simplicity, mildness, inoffensiveness, patience and obedience, are used as emblems of believers in Christ (Joh 10:15-16, Joh 10:26-27 [cf. Mat 25:32-33; Heb 13:20]). Lost or straying sheep represent unconverted persons wandering in sin and error (Mat 10:6; Mat 15:24; Joh 10:26-27; 1Pe 2:25 [cf. Mat 9:36; Mar 6:34]).
Deriv.: probatikós (G4262), pertaining to sheep.
Ant.: ériphos (G2056), a goat; eríphion (G2055), a kid, small goat; trágos (G5131), he-goat.

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ἐρίφιον
eriphion/goat
Thayer Definition:
1) a kid, a young goat
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G2056

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ἐρίφιον
eríphion/goat; gen. eriphíou, neut. noun, a diminutive of ériphos (G2056), a goat. A kid, young goat (Mat 25:33). The words ériphos, a young goat, and the diminutive eríphion, appear in the picture of the last judgment where they are contrasted with sheep (próbata [G4263]). The point of contrast lies in the color rather than the character of the animals, the sheep being pure white while the goats are mostly covered with long black hair. In Son 4:1, the locks of the beloved are compared to "a flock of goats, that appear from Mount Gilead." The Son of Man shall separate all the nations "as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats" (Mat 25:32), which simile is quite true to pastoral life. Sheep and goats pasture together, but never trespass on each other's domains; they are kept together but they do not mix; they may be seen to enter the fold in company, but once inside they are kept separate.

Really interesting, why did Jesus use the word for baby or young goats?

I'd say it is for the same reason he referred to the Syro-Phoenician - gentile woman as a "dog", yet it actually means "puppy".

The religious-caste of today like to shout:

"AND JESUS CALLED HER A DOG!  IS JESUS ABOVE USING INSULTS TO GET HIS WAY!?  HALLELUJAH GLOREH TO GAWD! *stomp*  Praise Jee-zuhs!"

They call the ones on the left "Goat"...while forgetting it is just a kid.  In the same way they call the gentiles dogs, while forgetting they are just puppies.

^KJVMat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

^WWMat 25:33 And he shall set the old on his right hand, but the babes on the left.

νήπιος
nēpios
Thayer Definition:
1) an infant, little child
2) a minor, not of age
3) metaphorically childish, untaught, unskilled
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from an obsolete particle ne- (implying negation) and G2031
Citing in TDNT: 4:912, 631

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^KJVTit 2:11-12  11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

παιδεύω
paideuō
Thayer Definition:
1) to train children
1a) to be instructed or taught or learn
1b) to cause one to learn
2) to chastise
2a) to chastise or castigate with words, to correct
2a1) of those who are moulding the character of others by reproof and admonition
2b) of God
2b1) to chasten by the affliction of evils and calamities
2c) to chastise with blows, to scourge
2c1) of a father punishing his son
2c2) of a judge ordering one to be scourged
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G3816
Citing in TDNT: 5:596, 753

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Sheeps and goats is about judgement.
^KJV1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Chastened=teaching => See defenition above.
κρίνω
krinō
Thayer Definition:
1) to separate, put asunder, to pick out, select, choose
2) to approve, esteem, to prefer
3) to be of opinion, deem, think, to be of opinion
4) to determine, resolve, decree
5) to judge
5a) to pronounce an opinion concerning right and wrong
5a1) to be judged, i.e. summoned to trial that one's case may be examined and judgment passed upon it
5b) to pronounce judgment, to subject to censure
5b1) of those who act the part of judges or arbiters in matters of common life, or pass judgment on the deeds and words of others
6) to rule, govern
6a) to preside over with the power of giving judicial decisions, because it was the prerogative of kings and rulers to pass judgment
7) to contend together, of warriors and combatants
7a) to dispute
7b) in a forensic sense
7b1) to go to law, have suit at law
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: perhaps a primitive word
Citing in TDNT: 3:921, 469

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More (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6373.msg67458#msg67458)

Gold!

 :cloud9: Another side note on goats.....when you run it down it means to go in circles. Sheep follow the shepherd wherever, including up over the mountain. Goats keep going round and round it. Doing that for a long time, would create a rut, and make the mountain appear bigger, LOL. All of us have a dual nature like this, that we are having trained by the Lord.

Interestingly, Galilee is included in the word groupings on goats, and it means "a circuit". Blessings....

Quote from: Lefein on September 18, 2010, 07:24:19 PM
I'd say it is for the same reason he referred to the Syro-Phoenician - gentile woman as a "dog", yet it actually means "puppy".

The religious-caste of today like to shout:

"AND JESUS CALLED HER A DOG!  IS JESUS ABOVE USING INSULTS TO GET HIS WAY!?  HALLELUJAH GLOREH TO GAWD! *stomp*  Praise Jee-zuhs!"

They call the ones on the left "Goat"...while forgetting it is just a kid.  In the same way they call the gentiles dogs, while forgetting they are just puppies.

QuoteShe responds with amazing understanding and faith. She is asking if Jewish failure can's result in Gentile blessing. Can't Gentiles have what Jews reject. She reveals what God is doing in the world. Israel's failure will result in Gentile blessing. Rom 9-11. He fed 5000 Jews, now he will go feed 4000 Gentiles. There are no more restrictions on the basis of food. Peter didn't learn this till Acts 10. Jesus doesn't call Gentiles "dogs" anymore because they are no longer outsiders.

Read full article. (http://bible.org/seriespage/delivering-syrophoenician%E2%80%99s-daughter)

Lefein your post was very interesting and I really appreciate it. I still see Jesus as being purposely difficult with the syro-phoenician woman....Insult is surely too strong a word, but definitely He tested her, even tho perhaps he already saw into her heart and knew how she would respond. I kno wht you mean tho about those who seem to get excited by the idea of Jesus insulting someone- because they think it gives them permission to be insulting and arrogant towards the people they judge.

Perhaps the goats(kids) go to the left, closest to His heart, because He is a good shepherd, and is long-suffering towards men, not willing that any perish.

Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

1Co 3:1-3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
(Jas 3:14-16)


These are probably among those who are saved "as through flames", for the flaming eyes of the one who "tries the reins and the hearts"... "will search out all that is hidden in darkness and bring it to light".

Therefore, "confess your faults to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed"- because, "if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness".

Let there be light! It is so much easier to come clean now :o)

I just like what you said Eaglesway.  :grin:

Something that always used to confuse me, I just realized, is that you guys are always looking eons ahead to the salvation of all.

I think it's tempting, then, to interpret all scripture in the light of this--or to feel that you must.

Whereas, Jesus talked a lot about this eon, a little about the one passing at his time, and a little about the end of the age--is it reasonable to try and fit everything he said into the future?  Revelation does that, Paul does some of that, but wasn't Jesus giving us instruction about the age we are living in most of all?  If he is expecting to gather his sheep in this age, and they are the few, it is for a purpose, and we can't get from here to there without it.


Revelation 17:14
They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers."

Antichrist:
Denying Jesus Christ is come in the Flesh.


1 John 4:3; And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ
is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of
antichrist,
whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7; For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ
is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an
antichrist.

Quote from: Cardinal on September 18, 2010, 08:24:52 PM
:cloud9: Another side note on goats.....when you run it down it means to go in circles. Sheep follow the shepherd wherever, including up over the mountain. Goats keep going round and round it. Doing that for a long time, would create a rut, and make the mountain appear bigger, LOL. All of us have a dual nature like this, that we are having trained by the Lord.

Interestingly, Galilee is included in the word groupings on goats, and it means "a circuit". Blessings....

Interesting, the worldly churches also appear to go around and around in circles.

"The only difference between a rut and the grave, is the depth of their understanding."

peacemaker

 always is such a big word  :laughing7:

Quote from: Molly on October 03, 2010, 05:55:49 AM
Something that always used to confuse me, I just realized, is that you guys are always looking eons ahead to the salvation of all.

I think it's tempting, then, to interpret all scripture in the light of this--or to feel that you must.

Whereas, Jesus talked a lot about this eon, a little about the one passing at his time, and a little about the end of the age--is it reasonable to try and fit everything he said into the future?  Revelation does that, Paul does some of that, but wasn't Jesus giving us instruction about the age we are living in most of all?  If he is expecting to gather his sheep in this age, and they are the few, it is for a purpose, and we can't get from here to there without it.


Revelation 17:14
They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers."

I have to agree, Jesus' words make much more sense if taken in the light of NOW is the time for everything.

Wow, we're having church today!
Praise you Lord.

   I agree that Now is the Time and Today is the Day, our God, who was and is and will be, has given us History and Prophecy, so that we know where we are coming from, where we are and where we are going. It is all apart of the conversation. Sometimes I feel as tho we debate whether the coin is heads- or is it tails? The coin is all that and more.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NN9hX61vhg&feature=related

There is very little in the Bible that points to universal salvation.  It is very well hidden.

I've kept an open mind about it, even though I would have to say I believed it as a child, but as an adult, I need proof.

The study of the ages we did recently, opened everything up for me.  That, and the restitution of all things cited in Acts 3:21.  No one ever mentions these. Also, reading the early church fathers helped.

It's amazing how a few assumptions can change the whole picture, but God has ages and ages to achieve his goals.

21 Whom it behooveth heaven to receive, [till] into the times of restitution of all things, which the Lord spake by the mouth of his holy prophets from the world.
--Acts 3:21

Quote from: Molly on October 03, 2010, 08:09:16 PM
There is very little in the Bible that points to universal salvation.  It is very well hidden.



21 Whom it behooveth heaven to receive, [till] into the times of restitution of all things, which the Lord spake by the mouth of his holy prophets from the world.
--Acts 3:21

It is hidden, but it is revealed as well :o)


Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
(Eph 1:9-10)


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For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
(Col 1:19-20)

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. (Rom 11:32-36)

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
(1Co 2:7-10)



Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
(Rom 16:25-26)

Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
(Mat 13:33-35)

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
(Act 3:19-21)

This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?"
(Joh 12:38)

Indeed, to whom, but little children, for God has chosen the foolish things to confound the wise and the mighty. It makes perfect sense you believed it as a child.

Quote from: eaglesway on October 03, 2010, 08:54:40 PM
It is hidden, but it is revealed as well :o)

But where exactly is it hidden?
In the inspired Greek and/or man made translations?

The sheep from the parable are the elect/first fruits.
^YLTJohn 10
16 and other sheep I have that are not of this fold, these also it behoveth me to bring, and my voice they will hear, and there shall become one flock--one shepherd.

There are also sheep that are not of His flock but they will join His flock. It can be argued that only a few sheep that are not of His flock will join.
^YLTMatt 25
33 and he shall set the sheep indeed on his right hand, and the goats on the left.
34 `Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
35 for I did hunger, and ye gave me to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and ye received me;
36 naked, and ye put around me; I was infirm, and ye looked after me; in prison I was, and ye came unto me.
37 `Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, and we nourished? or thirsting, and we gave to drink?
38 and when did we see thee a stranger, and we received? or naked, and we put around?
39 and when did we see thee infirm, or in prison, and we came unto thee?
40 `And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did it to one of these my brethren--the least--to me ye did it .
41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;
42 for I did hunger, and ye gave me not to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me not to drink;
43 a stranger I was, and ye did not receive me; naked, and ye put not around me; infirm, and in prison, and ye did not look after me.
44 `Then shall they answer, they also, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in prison, and we did not minister to thee?
45 `Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of these, the least, ye did it not to me.
46 And these (goats) shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

The above verses clearly show there are only two groups. Saved-sheep and lost-goats.
If the the verses are only about the sheep of His flock then the sheep not of His flock escape judgement. That's impossible if you ask me.
So for me it's clear all sheep join His flock.

What about the goats? Besides their punishment only last an age there is another thing to consider. Post 4-8 of this thread.
It all perfectly aligns. Meaning of the Greek for sheep, goat, chasten,judge, etc.


What if the real translation of this verse is something like this:
^WWMatt 25
33 And He sets His trained old sheep of His own flock on His right hand, and the to be trained lambs on His left hand so they later will hear His voice.

I have a feeling I already wrote all of this.... I wonder if there is a solid study on 'goats'.

 :2c:

If the words were translated into Aramaic.... it would read "and these shall go away into punishment olam....."
I think we may be a little to hung up on aion and aionian. They come from olam. Olam was a word for an indetermate time modified by the subject matter. "He shall be your slave "olam"- for the rest of his life, an indeterminate period measured by the life of the subject. It could be three weeks or thirty years or whatever. "He is YHWH olam". God is the subject and His life transcends time and is infinite.

   Jesus said some will be beaten with many stripes, some with few. He said,"You shall not escape until you have paid the very last penny." I have experienced this in the disciplines of the Lord in my own life. I am in a jail and I can plead with God all I want to(the worm dieth not) but He will not let me out(the fire is not quenched) until I repent. I get angry and gnash my teeth. Really, am I alone in this?

   Life "olam", or "aionios zoe" has the attribute that it is everlasting, because it is the impartation of the very life of God into us. Punishment "olam", or Aionios kolassis has the attribute that it lasts until the knee bows and the tongue confesses. This is the "last penny" because -"If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness". "Confess your faults one to another and pray for one another that you may be healed". "And they were baptised of him in the Jordan river, confessing their sins".

  This confession, this zeal to clear themselves, was the fruit of the light- bringing every hidden thing up for cleansing, the testimony of a clear conscience before God. Then, if we walk in the light as He is in the light we have koinonea together and the blood of Jesus continually cleanses us from all sin. This is why sin no longer has dominion over us. NOT because of the exercise of our will to suppress it, but because as long as we allow the light to shine CLEAR THROUGH OUR DARKNESS- the blood is applied and we are forgiven first, and THEN delivered. The freedom comes from the forgiveness. This opens the well of grace to work in the Spirit. This is ABIDING IN THE FIRE, which is the DAY. If any branch ABIDE NOT IN THE VINE(the vine is the one light the LIGHTS EVERY MAN THAT COMES INTO THE WORLD, the in Him was LIFE and the LIFE WAS THE LIGHT OF MEN).

Sheep graze in the green pasture of light, and rest beside still waters.  Goats will "kick against the pricks". They eat anything and but heads continually. They are those who will be "saved but as through fire"(IMO). They are not necessarily going to be experiencing of cleansing light/purging fire for an entire age(IMO) but rather "OLAM"- until they have paid the last penny, bowed the knee, humbled themselves. Even as you or I may be already in the fire if we, for example, refuse to forgive a brother, or refuse to confess a transgression or refuse to yield to the will of God in some specific way. Job's fire was the fishes belly when he the will of God and the hot sun after he did the will of God- because he was complaining about it.

Quote from: Molly on October 03, 2010, 08:09:16 PM
There is very little in the Bible that points to universal salvation.  It is very well hidden.

I've kept an open mind about it, even though I would have to say I believed it as a child, but as an adult, I need proof.

The study of the ages we did recently, opened everything up for me.  That, and the restitution of all things cited in Acts 3:21.  No one ever mentions these. Also, reading the early church fathers helped.

It's amazing how a few assumptions can change the whole picture, but God has ages and ages to achieve his goals.
21 Whom it behooveth heaven to receive, [till] into the times of restitution of all things, which the Lord spake by the mouth of his holy prophets from the world.
--Acts 3:21

Rejoicing.

It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and the honor of kings to search out a matter.  Pr. 25:2

Quote from: eaglesway on October 04, 2010, 01:08:40 AM
:2c:

If the words were translated into Aramaic.... it would read "and these shall go away into punishment olam....."
I think we may be a little to hung up on aion and aionian. They come from olam. Olam was a word for an indetermate time modified by the subject matter. "He shall be your slave "olam"- for the rest of his life, an indeterminate period measured by the life of the subject. It could be three weeks or thirty years or whatever. "He is YHWH olam". God is the subject and His life transcends time and is infinite.

   

Excellent  :thumbsup:

Quote from: eaglesway on October 04, 2010, 01:08:40 AM
If the words were translated into Aramaic.... it would read "and these shall go away into punishment olam....."
I think we may be a little to hung up on aion and aionian. They come from olam. Olam was a word for an indetermate time modified by the subject matter. "He shall be your slave "olam"- for the rest of his life,

Punished for the rest of his life that never ends...

QuoteJesus said some will be beaten with many stripes, some with few. He said,"You shall not escape until you have paid the very last penny."

I've read the ET answer to that one. Indeed people can exit hell after the stripes. But at every stripe they recieve they curse God for it. So God adds a few more stripes for the cursing...

QuoteSheep graze in the green pasture of light, and rest beside still waters.  Goats will "kick against the pricks". They eat anything and but heads continually. They are those who will be "saved but as through fire"(IMO). They are not necessarily going to be experiencing of cleansing light/purging fire for an entire age(IMO) but rather "OLAM"- until they have paid the last penny,

I think the aion translation doesn't say the age lasts the same time for all. :dontknow:

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 04, 2010, 08:48:36 AM

QuoteJesus said some will be beaten with many stripes, some with few. He said,"You shall not escape until you have paid the very last penny."

I've read the ET answer to that one. Indeed people can exit hell after the stripes. But at every stripe they recieve they curse God for it. So God adds a few more stripes for the cursing...

Man there are some sick puppies out there!

Sometimes I think satan was just a little serpent and mankind is the dragon...

Quote from: Lefein on September 18, 2010, 06:05:51 PM
Just a note of interest!

The Greek word used in the passages talking about the sheep on his right going into life, and the goats on his left going into the aionion chastening;

The word for goat is "eriphia" (and variations, lol...Greek grammar and all that), which is to say "kid", a baby goat.  They aren't adult goats, but the sheep aren't called lambs, they are adult sheep.  The word for sheep is "probata", where as in revelation the word for lamb is "arnion".

In all of the New Testament, the only other time a goat that is not a kid, or eriphia is mentioned, is in Hebrews, when it speaks of the blood of he-goats and bulls for sacrifices, the word for he-goat being "tragon".

So you have adult sheep who ministered to the "needs" of Jesus, the sheep doing to others as unto the Lord.  And then you have kids, baby goats/young goats, who haven't, who are sent to be chastised.

Its kind of curious...that this came up just a few days after I stumbled upon it in the greek readings.

Most interesting... thanks!  :thumbsup:

Quote from: peacemaker on October 03, 2010, 07:07:28 AM

Quote from: Cardinal on September 18, 2010, 08:24:52 PM
:cloud9: Another side note on goats.....when you run it down it means to go in circles. Sheep follow the shepherd wherever, including up over the mountain. Goats keep going round and round it. Doing that for a long time, would create a rut, and make the mountain appear bigger, LOL. All of us have a dual nature like this, that we are having trained by the Lord.

Interestingly, Galilee is included in the word groupings on goats, and it means "a circuit". Blessings....

Interesting, the worldly churches also appear to go around and around in circles.

"The only difference between a rut and the grave, is the depth of their understanding."

peacemaker

:thumbsup: Good one

Quote from: Cardinal on October 05, 2010, 03:11:48 AM

Quote from: peacemaker on October 03, 2010, 07:07:28 AM

Quote from: Cardinal on September 18, 2010, 08:24:52 PM
:cloud9: Another side note on goats.....when you run it down it means to go in circles. Sheep follow the shepherd wherever, including up over the mountain. Goats keep going round and round it. Doing that for a long time, would create a rut, and make the mountain appear bigger, LOL. All of us have a dual nature like this, that we are having trained by the Lord.

Interestingly, Galilee is included in the word groupings on goats, and it means "a circuit". Blessings....

Interesting, the worldly churches also appear to go around and around in circles.

"The only difference between a rut and the grave, is the depth of their understanding."

peacemaker

:thumbsup: Good one

I wanted to mention there is this strange scene in the Old Testament where David is chased around and around a mountain by King Saul who is trying to kill him.  It seems to go on forever [I can't remember how long].  Anyway, what you said reminded me of that.

 :cloud9: Interesting! Never thought of that, but as Saul represents the carnal mind, or the best of anointed flesh, it makes perfect sense. Who, but our carnal mind, or the carnal minds of others, tries to "kill" the Christ in us.  :thumbsup:

willieH: Hi WW... :hithere:

There is much to say about "outer darkness"... but mostly it is about the (consuming) FIRE of the Wrath of God which is present IN it, that most... (especially "christians") do not recognize, for they practice works of DARKNESS in the name of the LIGHT -- Matt 7:22-23 --

All the while, thinking this an exclusive characteristic (darkness) in those they, in their lack of spiritual insight, ...freely condemn in the name of GOD, which does NOT CONDEMN... and sent His SON to NOT CONDEMN -- John 3:17 -- bearing a false message of FEAR to the WORLD that GOD so LOVES.  :sigh: ...in the stead of His LOVE (which is about CASTING OUT of FEAR -- 1 John 4:18)

Driving around in their cars, placing THREATENING bumper stickers that say such as -- "if you don't believe there's a God, you better be RIGHT!"  :sigh:  This is NOT the GOSPEL for the GOSPEL is named PEACE -- Eph 6:15 -- Rom 10:15 -- nor is it the manner in which it MUST be PREACHED.  :thumbdown:

Immediately condemning another which does not "hear them", concluding them to the wrath of God FOREVER in a mythical place the RELIGIOUS have contrived and called "HELL", ...instead of possessing the humility and wisdom which KNOWS, that everyone that one witnesses to shall not hear... for their moment is not come... and YOU are not the witness that GOD has chosen, which shall open their  particular ears to HEAR.  :dontknow:

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 18, 2010, 05:22:02 PM
Can sheep judge sheep? Maybe we are the veiled sheep...
Lots are veiled because they are the ones gnashing their teeth (http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/hodgesgn.htm)

The "outer darkness" is not beyond this life (which is FULL of Sin, Darkness and Death = all forms of DARKNESS), ...it is most certainly WITHIN IT...

Men who are not ENLIGHTENED with, and have come INTO, the LIGHT of truth are themselves amidst the "outer darkness"...

MEN suffer in this life, for their lack of knowledge and self control, ...for they "reap what they sow"...

Reaping and Sowing is not just works of the FLESH as are seen commonly by those Religious -- Drunkeness, adulteries, etc... this process is also done in "spiritual" circles as well, especially done by those who "come in the name" of CHRIST -- Matt 7:22-23 -- which are MANY (2.5 billion and counting).

Those who are in the process of furthering LIES, shall suffer accordingly in the very same manner as any other which THEY judge and deem as sinful for what is SOWN in the flesh... IGNORANT of their own DARKENED condition.

ALL are tried in the FIRE of LOVE -- Mark 9:49

GOD is LOVE -- 1 John 4:8
GOD is a consuming FIRE -- Heb 12:29
ALL Living men are amidst that FIRE -- Acts 17:28  

This includes ALL believers... Many are CALLED (by and to the TRUTH)...

FEW are CHOSEN to HEAR it, ...then KNOW and PREACH the TRUTH...

This is plainly exemplified in the ministry of CHRIST... MANY were told the TRUTH by Him, ...FEW accepted (heard) it and then PREACHED it to others...

Persecution follows the LIGHT of TRUTH, for those in OUTER DARKNESS do not come to it when it is presented ("believer/called" or "non-believer/not called"), for they...

(1) LOVE the DARKNESS (NOT the TRUTH - 1 Thess 2:10 - John 3:19-20) and,

(2) do not wish the FALLACY of their tradition to be exposed by the TRUTH -- Matt 15:6 -- Mark 7:13 -- by humbling themselves before the TRUTH when it is presented to them...

The vain witness of the MANY as I noted above in -- Matt 7:22-23 -- displays that even though one is CALLED (drawn to CHRIST), one must still gain the EARS to HEAR Him, which only come via searching with the whole heart -- Jer 29:14  -- and as LOVE encompasses them, they shall have the SAME LOVE (not condemnation) for the WORLD that GOD has for it, which is the mandate and central motivation of His LOVE.

The "MANY", will FALSELY "come in the name of CHRIST", using the SWORD of PEACE as a weapon of CONDEMNATION against the WORLD (even others who have been "CALLED" as well), ...and as a JUDGMENT of the WORLD (that GOD so unchangingly, LOVES)...

He that LOVES not his BROTHER (and condemns him) whom he CAN SEE is a liar and bearer of lies, ...and cannot, in essence LOVE God, whom he CANNOT SEE -- 1 John 4:20)

"GOD so LOVED the WORLD"... is the central TRUTH of the WORD... anything that proposes otherwise, is immersed in and driven by FEAR, and is CAST OUT by that LOVE... (into the "outer darkness" with all others which abide in MISSING the MARK = Sin)

As far as worship is concerned... if we LOVE not our brother, in conjunction with filling the Holy demands of the Father, ...then our attempt to worship Him is IN VAIN... and not recieved by Him... (see CAIN's VAIN attempt -- which began in IGNORING the demands of the TRUTH, and later resulted in murder of his brother)

My  :2c:

Thos were some really edifying words Willie-

Mat 6:22-23  
The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!


Mat 4:16
The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

Joh 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

1Co 4:5  Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Jud 1:6  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in (aidos) chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Jud 1:12-13 These are the reefs in your love feasts, carousing with you fearlessly, shepherding themselves; waterless clouds carried aside by winds; trees that are sear, unfruitful, twice dying, uprooted;" wild billows of the sea, frothing forth their own shame; straying stars, for whom the gloom of darkness has been kept for an eon."

Mat 22:13  Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen.


There seems to me to be a relationship between "outer darkness" and those who leave their proper estate, meaning, unprofitable servants, children of the kingdom who do works of darkness, like in James 3...."If you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart do not be arrogant(leave your proper estate) and lie against the truth(we are to serve one another not rule one another). This wisdom is not from above but is earthly, sensual, demonic(of the realms of darkness and the shadow of death) whereas the wisdom from above (light) is pure, peacable, full of mercy and good fruits-and sown in peace. Or, Rom 12:3, For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think(don't leave you proper estate-just another member of the body); but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
  The unfruitful works of darkness(dominion/control,self-feeding/glorying,self-righteousness) masquerade as light in those who do not abide in the love of God- it is almost as if they forge their own chains on a day to day basis. I know I have had my eyes opened to see such chains of my own making at several different points along the way in my walk with God.

And He was saying to them, "Take care what you listen to. By your standard of measure it will be measured to you; and more will be given you besides. "For whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him."
(Mar 4:24-25)

"For nothing is hidden that will not become evident, nor anything secret that will not be known and come to light. "So take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him."
(Luk 8:17-18)




For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
(Heb 4:12-13)

Hi there;
Kind of interesting that Christ only converted 12. He knew that one of them would betray him.
Over the history of the old testament there are many periods of time where not too many people are tried to be converted. In fact, the prophets were always abused when they told the truth because people did not like what they were saying.
Then there is 400 years between the old testament and the new.
Jesus came in when the law was growing more and more demanding.
He came to set people free, but only concentrated on the 12. Doesn't this highlight that He has a specific plan?
Now He has called many at this time to separate the truth from the lies of the world that are stimulated by the idea of self-gain. Hence the 'what's in it for me?' question that seem to be on everyones lips is the summation of the flesh vs the spirit. How do I earn my salvation, instead of the truth that Christ came to set us free from the law of sin and death.
The whole idea that we are sons/daughters of Christ because of His provision is not accurately portrayed in many churches.  We are told that we come to the Father as joint heirs with Jesus. That is an awesome statement of the magnitude of the works that Christ has done for us all.
Hope that makes sense.

Quote from: Ross on October 06, 2010, 12:19:00 PM
Hi there;
Kind of interesting that Christ only converted 12. He knew that one of them would betray him.
Over the history of the old testament there are many periods of time where not too many people are tried to be converted. In fact, the prophets were always abused when they told the truth because people did not like what they were saying.
Then there is 400 years between the old testament and the new.
Jesus came in when the law was growing more and more demanding.
He came to set people free, but only concentrated on the 12. Doesn't this highlight that He has a specific plan?
Now He has called many at this time to separate the truth from the lies of the world that are stimulated by the idea of self-gain. Hence the 'what's in it for me?' question that seem to be on everyones lips is the summation of the flesh vs the spirit. How do I earn my salvation, instead of the truth that Christ came to set us free from the law of sin and death.
The whole idea that we are sons/daughters of Christ because of His provision is not accurately portrayed in many churches.  We are told that we come to the Father as joint heirs with Jesus. That is an awesome statement of the magnitude of the works that Christ has done for us all.
Hope that makes sense.

It does make sense!
:thumbsup:

Quote from: Quaesitor on October 06, 2010, 03:27:52 PM

Quote from: Ross on October 06, 2010, 12:19:00 PM
Hi there;
Kind of interesting that Christ only converted 12. He knew that one of them would betray him.
Over the history of the old testament there are many periods of time where not too many people are tried to be converted. In fact, the prophets were always abused when they told the truth because people did not like what they were saying.
Then there is 400 years between the old testament and the new.
Jesus came in when the law was growing more and more demanding.
He came to set people free, but only concentrated on the 12. Doesn't this highlight that He has a specific plan?
Now He has called many at this time to separate the truth from the lies of the world that are stimulated by the idea of self-gain. Hence the 'what's in it for me?' question that seem to be on everyones lips is the summation of the flesh vs the spirit. How do I earn my salvation, instead of the truth that Christ came to set us free from the law of sin and death.
The whole idea that we are sons/daughters of Christ because of His provision is not accurately portrayed in many churches.  We are told that we come to the Father as joint heirs with Jesus. That is an awesome statement of the magnitude of the works that Christ has done for us all.
Hope that makes sense.

It does make sense!
:thumbsup:

I think it does too, Q!  :thumbsup:

willieH:  Hi Q... :hithere:

I wanted to address your OP...  :winkgrin:

Quote from: Quaesitor on September 18, 2010, 04:55:14 PM
I was wondering yesterday, Jesus tells us that the sheep hear His voice and recognize Truth. When I heard about UR, I did not fight back, it came as so right, so true, I recognized Jesus' voice right there.

This is just totally, ...RIGHT ON!  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Quaesitor on September 18, 2010, 04:55:14 PMIs it possible that there are a lot more religious folks that we think and that they look like sheep in every aspect but are acting unconsciously (because they sincerely believe to be sheep)?

YES...

MANY are CALLED... FEW are CHOSEN (which are amongst the "called")...

Just because one is "CALLED" (drawn to CHRIST), does not add them to the FEW... Hey, there are (estimated to be) 2.5 BILLION Christians in the world in this moment in time...

LOGIC and REASON, will demand, that there is NO WAY that such a number as a "BILLION" could ever be considered as "FEW", let alone a 2.5 multiple of that number!

So where does this LOGIC and REASON leave us?  I say that the TRUTH is found amongst those CHOSEN to know it... and that the "CHOSEN" lie somewhere within the 2.5 Billion CALLED, "believers"...  not standing as MANY, ...but as FEW...

For CHRIST Himself noted on at least 2 occasions -- Matt 7:22-23 -- Matt 24:5 -- that MANY would come IN HIS NAME, and DECIEVE MANY... So the indication of MANY does not designate that TRUTH is within that which is preached by them, even though the NAME of CHRIST is claimed to be represented, by them. (coming IN His NAME)

Somewhere within the number of "believers" CALLED, are the "CHOSEN" found... I believe it is in those whom GOD has shown His (NON-CONDEMNING) TRUTH that ALL MEN are EQUALLY valued by Him concerning SALVATION, and the ALL (MEN) which are LOST (which HE is IMPARTIAL to), shall be FOUND, ...by Him.  And that HIS WORD shall NOT return VOID in any degree, to HIM... being SENT to SAVE the WORLD (YHVH so LOVES) -- Isaiah 55:11 -- John 3:16-17

The "CHOSEN" will be comprised of those who leave SELF behind in their observations... (what's in it for ME = I'm saved/you're not, so you're going to HELL), ...and truly and in EVERY WAY, communicate as did CHRIST, ...HIS LOVE for the WORLD -- TO the WORLD -- John 3:16

Knowing that each of us, which has been FOUND, were once numbered amongst the LOST... each a SINNER, each AS in NEED of Him and His SAVING power as the ones we might presently (or looking into the past) behold as "LOST".   :dontknow:

The "CHOSEN" will be without any CONDEMNATION -- John 3:17 -- without any FEAR-- 1 John 4:18 -- forgiving each of the LOVED of GOD, no matter what they DO -- Luke 23:34 -- as did the SAVIOR...

Disregarding SELF, and exalting GOD in EVERY LIFE we might come in contact with or hear of, irregardless of the FLESHLY tendency to CONDEMN them because of their past or present activity...

Knowing that CHRIST was SENT NOT to CONDEMN... and following that example in every case. (If He was SENT to NOT CONDEMN and in fact DID NOT CONDEMN, ...how may we therefore, CONDEMN others and still number ourselves as "followers" of Him?)

He who is busy CONDEMNING anyone for any reason, is NOT CHOSEN and is certainly NOT amongst the FEW...

For the earmark that separates the FEW, from the MANY, is indicating the "next guy", as just as important to YHVH and JESUS, as we might consider ourselves... without regard to who the "next guy" is, or what that "next guy" has DONE.

For JESUS said:  

Luke 23:34 -- Father, forgive them, for THEY [all men] KNOW NOT what they... DO.

And the WORD spoken, is

(1) Unchanging
(2) IMPARTIAL
(3) All encompassing of those which have emerged FROM it, which is ALL...

Quote from: Quaesitor on September 18, 2010, 04:55:14 PMOr are they just veiled?

Absolutely bro... No one is "right or wrong"... only VEILED or REVEALED, by the decision of YHVH and His WORD...

Those who embrace FEAR, do not embrace LOVE... those who embrace CONDEMNATION, do not embrace the ONE SENT NOT to CONDEMN, and do not embrace the FORGIVENESS of YHVH... which is THAT which the One He SENT, ...brought to this world.

Quote from: Quaesitor on September 18, 2010, 04:55:14 PMBecause, they judge without hearing first and when they hear they refuse all truth.

As you said in opening this thread... the SHEEP which are CHOSEN, ...Hear HIS VOICE (which goes  beyond the "CALL"), ...and not just the "CALL"... for MANY are "called"... FEW are CHOSEN... (to bear LIGHT of TRUTH ...WITHIN... [amidst], the darkness)...

Anyone can hear a SHOUT... only those who RESPOND to, and seek out the SHOUT, shall find out WHY the SHOUT occured, and for whom it was intended.

It is one thing to partially embrace the WORD, which is what MOST ALL "believers" do... having little dedication to IT... hardly making a PERSONAL search of IT...

It is another thing, to sacrifice ALL of ones IMPERFECT SELF, for that PERFECT WORD, seeking in it EVERY DAY, ...being molded BY IT  ...And within the humility of that seeking, ...knowing that the "molding" shall take a LIFETIME to complete, and that however one might deduce the WORD at any point in time, that there is MORE, ...MUCH MORE seeking and molding to be done, ...which is what VERY FEW do...

The MANY, think themselves as a "done deal" once they have "accepted" CHRIST... failing to recognize that the shaping of them  (CLAY), is a continuing work that is not DONE ("finished"), until it is DONE.

:Peace:

Thank you Willie, excellent post once again.

Quote from: willieH on October 06, 2010, 10:19:13 PM
willieH:  Hi Q... :hithere:

I wanted to address your OP...  :winkgrin:

Quote from: Quaesitor on September 18, 2010, 04:55:14 PM
I was wondering yesterday, Jesus tells us that the sheep hear His voice and recognize Truth. When I heard about UR, I did not fight back, it came as so right, so true, I recognized Jesus' voice right there.

This is just totally, ...RIGHT ON!  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Quaesitor on September 18, 2010, 04:55:14 PMIs it possible that there are a lot more religious folks that we think and that they look like sheep in every aspect but are acting unconsciously (because they sincerely believe to be sheep)?

YES...

MANY are CALLED... FEW are CHOSEN (which are amongst the "called")...

Just because one is "CALLED" (drawn to CHRIST), does not add them to the FEW... Hey, there are (estimated to be) 2.5 BILLION Christians in the world in this moment in time...

LOGIC and REASON, will demand, that there is NO WAY that such a number as a "BILLION" could ever be considered as "FEW", let alone a 2.5 multiple of that number!

So where does this LOGIC and REASON leave us?  I say that the TRUTH is found amongst those CHOSEN to know it... and that the "CHOSEN" lie somewhere within the 2.5 Billion CALLED, "believers"...  not standing as MANY, ...but as FEW...

For CHRIST Himself noted on at least 2 occasions -- Matt 7:22-23 -- Matt 24:5 -- that MANY would come IN HIS NAME, and DECIEVE MANY... So the indication of MANY does not designate that TRUTH is within that which is preached by them, even though the NAME of CHRIST is claimed to be represented, by them. (coming IN His NAME)

Somewhere within the number of "believers" CALLED, are the "CHOSEN" found... I believe it is in those whom GOD has shown His (NON-CONDEMNING) TRUTH that ALL MEN are EQUALLY valued by Him concerning SALVATION, and the ALL (MEN) which are LOST (which HE is IMPARTIAL to), shall be FOUND, ...by Him.  And that HIS WORD shall NOT return VOID in any degree, to HIM... being SENT to SAVE the WORLD (YHVH so LOVES) -- Isaiah 55:11 -- John 3:16-17

The "CHOSEN" will be comprised of those who leave SELF behind in their observations... (what's in it for ME = I'm saved/you're not, so you're going to HELL), ...and truly and in EVERY WAY, communicate as did CHRIST, ...HIS LOVE for the WORLD -- TO the WORLD -- John 3:16

Knowing that each of us, which has been FOUND, were once numbered amongst the LOST... each a SINNER, each AS in NEED of Him and His SAVING power as the ones we might presently (or looking into the past) behold as "LOST".   :dontknow:

The "CHOSEN" will be without any CONDEMNATION -- John 3:17 -- without any FEAR-- 1 John 4:18 -- forgiving each of the LOVED of GOD, no matter what they DO -- Luke 23:34 -- as did the SAVIOR...

Disregarding SELF, and exalting GOD in EVERY LIFE we might come in contact with or hear of, irregardless of the FLESHLY tendency to CONDEMN them because of their past or present activity...

Knowing that CHRIST was SENT NOT to CONDEMN... and following that example in every case. (If He was SENT to NOT CONDEMN and in fact DID NOT CONDEMN, ...how may we therefore, CONDEMN others and still number ourselves as "followers" of Him?)

He who is busy CONDEMNING anyone for any reason, is NOT CHOSEN and is certainly NOT amongst the FEW...

For the earmark that separates the FEW, from the MANY, is indicating the "next guy", as just as important to YHVH and JESUS, as we might consider ourselves... without regard to who the "next guy" is, or what that "next guy" has DONE.

For JESUS said:  

Luke 23:34 -- Father, forgive them, for THEY [all men] KNOW NOT what they... DO.

And the WORD spoken, is

(1) Unchanging
(2) IMPARTIAL
(3) All encompassing of those which have emerged FROM it, which is ALL...

Quote from: Quaesitor on September 18, 2010, 04:55:14 PMOr are they just veiled?

Absolutely bro... No one is "right or wrong"... only VEILED or REVEALED, by the decision of YHVH and His WORD...

Those who embrace FEAR, do not embrace LOVE... those who embrace CONDEMNATION, do not embrace the ONE SENT NOT to CONDEMN, and do not embrace the FORGIVENESS of YHVH... which is THAT which the One He SENT, ...brought to this world.

Quote from: Quaesitor on September 18, 2010, 04:55:14 PMBecause, they judge without hearing first and when they hear they refuse all truth.

As you said in opening this thread... the SHEEP which are CHOSEN, ...Hear HIS VOICE (which goes  beyond the "CALL"), ...and not just the "CALL"... for MANY are "called"... FEW are CHOSEN... (to bear LIGHT of TRUTH ...WITHIN... [amidst], the darkness)...

Anyone can hear a SHOUT... only those who RESPOND to, and seek out the SHOUT, shall find out WHY the SHOUT occured, and for whom it was intended.

It is one thing to partially embrace the WORD, which is what MOST ALL "believers" do... having little dedication to IT... hardly making a PERSONAL search of IT...

It is another thing, to sacrifice ALL of ones IMPERFECT SELF, for that PERFECT WORD, seeking in it EVERY DAY, ...being molded BY IT  ...And within the humility of that seeking, ...knowing that the "molding" shall take a LIFETIME to complete, and that however one might deduce the WORD at any point in time, that there is MORE, ...MUCH MORE seeking and molding to be done, ...which is what VERY FEW do...

The MANY, think themselves as a "done deal" once they have "accepted" CHRIST... failing to recognize that the shaping of them  (CLAY), is a continuing work that is not DONE ("finished"), until it is DONE.

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Willie, as always, you are a blessing to me. Thank you for this wonderful post.

CHB

Quote from: Quaesitor on October 07, 2010, 01:01:39 AM
Thank you Willie, excellent post once again.

Thanks be to YHVH, Q... your words bless me as well...  :friendstu:

Quote from: CHB on October 07, 2010, 01:13:49 AM

Quote from: willieH on October 06, 2010, 10:19:13 PM
willieH:  Hi Q... :hithere:

I wanted to address your OP...  :winkgrin:

Quote from: Quaesitor on September 18, 2010, 04:55:14 PM
I was wondering yesterday, Jesus tells us that the sheep hear His voice and recognize Truth. When I heard about UR, I did not fight back, it came as so right, so true, I recognized Jesus' voice right there.

This is just totally, ...RIGHT ON!  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Quaesitor on September 18, 2010, 04:55:14 PMIs it possible that there are a lot more religious folks that we think and that they look like sheep in every aspect but are acting unconsciously (because they sincerely believe to be sheep)?

YES...

MANY are CALLED... FEW are CHOSEN (which are amongst the "called")...

Just because one is "CALLED" (drawn to CHRIST), does not add them to the FEW... Hey, there are (estimated to be) 2.5 BILLION Christians in the world in this moment in time...

LOGIC and REASON, will demand, that there is NO WAY that such a number as a "BILLION" could ever be considered as "FEW", let alone a 2.5 multiple of that number!

So where does this LOGIC and REASON leave us?  I say that the TRUTH is found amongst those CHOSEN to know it... and that the "CHOSEN" lie somewhere within the 2.5 Billion CALLED, "believers"...  not standing as MANY, ...but as FEW...

For CHRIST Himself noted on at least 2 occasions -- Matt 7:22-23 -- Matt 24:5 -- that MANY would come IN HIS NAME, and DECIEVE MANY... So the indication of MANY does not designate that TRUTH is within that which is preached by them, even though the NAME of CHRIST is claimed to be represented, by them. (coming IN His NAME)

Somewhere within the number of "believers" CALLED, are the "CHOSEN" found... I believe it is in those whom GOD has shown His (NON-CONDEMNING) TRUTH that ALL MEN are EQUALLY valued by Him concerning SALVATION, and the ALL (MEN) which are LOST (which HE is IMPARTIAL to), shall be FOUND, ...by Him.  And that HIS WORD shall NOT return VOID in any degree, to HIM... being SENT to SAVE the WORLD (YHVH so LOVES) -- Isaiah 55:11 -- John 3:16-17

The "CHOSEN" will be comprised of those who leave SELF behind in their observations... (what's in it for ME = I'm saved/you're not, so you're going to HELL), ...and truly and in EVERY WAY, communicate as did CHRIST, ...HIS LOVE for the WORLD -- TO the WORLD -- John 3:16

Knowing that each of us, which has been FOUND, were once numbered amongst the LOST... each a SINNER, each AS in NEED of Him and His SAVING power as the ones we might presently (or looking into the past) behold as "LOST".   :dontknow:

The "CHOSEN" will be without any CONDEMNATION -- John 3:17 -- without any FEAR-- 1 John 4:18 -- forgiving each of the LOVED of GOD, no matter what they DO -- Luke 23:34 -- as did the SAVIOR...

Disregarding SELF, and exalting GOD in EVERY LIFE we might come in contact with or hear of, irregardless of the FLESHLY tendency to CONDEMN them because of their past or present activity...

Knowing that CHRIST was SENT NOT to CONDEMN... and following that example in every case. (If He was SENT to NOT CONDEMN and in fact DID NOT CONDEMN, ...how may we therefore, CONDEMN others and still number ourselves as "followers" of Him?)

He who is busy CONDEMNING anyone for any reason, is NOT CHOSEN and is certainly NOT amongst the FEW...

For the earmark that separates the FEW, from the MANY, is indicating the "next guy", as just as important to YHVH and JESUS, as we might consider ourselves... without regard to who the "next guy" is, or what that "next guy" has DONE.

For JESUS said:  

Luke 23:34 -- Father, forgive them, for THEY [all men] KNOW NOT what they... DO.

And the WORD spoken, is

(1) Unchanging
(2) IMPARTIAL
(3) All encompassing of those which have emerged FROM it, which is ALL...

Quote from: Quaesitor on September 18, 2010, 04:55:14 PMOr are they just veiled?

Absolutely bro... No one is "right or wrong"... only VEILED or REVEALED, by the decision of YHVH and His WORD...

Those who embrace FEAR, do not embrace LOVE... those who embrace CONDEMNATION, do not embrace the ONE SENT NOT to CONDEMN, and do not embrace the FORGIVENESS of YHVH... which is THAT which the One He SENT, ...brought to this world.

Quote from: Quaesitor on September 18, 2010, 04:55:14 PMBecause, they judge without hearing first and when they hear they refuse all truth.

As you said in opening this thread... the SHEEP which are CHOSEN, ...Hear HIS VOICE (which goes  beyond the "CALL"), ...and not just the "CALL"... for MANY are "called"... FEW are CHOSEN... (to bear LIGHT of TRUTH ...WITHIN... [amidst], the darkness)...

Anyone can hear a SHOUT... only those who RESPOND to, and seek out the SHOUT, shall find out WHY the SHOUT occured, and for whom it was intended.

It is one thing to partially embrace the WORD, which is what MOST ALL "believers" do... having little dedication to IT... hardly making a PERSONAL search of IT...

It is another thing, to sacrifice ALL of ones IMPERFECT SELF, for that PERFECT WORD, seeking in it EVERY DAY, ...being molded BY IT  ...And within the humility of that seeking, ...knowing that the "molding" shall take a LIFETIME to complete, and that however one might deduce the WORD at any point in time, that there is MORE, ...MUCH MORE seeking and molding to be done, ...which is what VERY FEW do...

The MANY, think themselves as a "done deal" once they have "accepted" CHRIST... failing to recognize that the shaping of them  (CLAY), is a continuing work that is not DONE ("finished"), until it is DONE.

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Willie, as always, you are a blessing to me. Thank you for this wonderful post.

CHB

As are you to me sister C!

Quote from: Molly on October 05, 2010, 03:53:16 AM

Quote from: Cardinal on October 05, 2010, 03:11:48 AM

Quote from: peacemaker on October 03, 2010, 07:07:28 AM

Quote from: Cardinal on September 18, 2010, 08:24:52 PM
:cloud9: Another side note on goats.....when you run it down it means to go in circles. Sheep follow the shepherd wherever, including up over the mountain. Goats keep going round and round it. Doing that for a long time, would create a rut, and make the mountain appear bigger, LOL. All of us have a dual nature like this, that we are having trained by the Lord.

Interestingly, Galilee is included in the word groupings on goats, and it means "a circuit". Blessings....

Interesting, the worldly churches also appear to go around and around in circles.

"The only difference between a rut and the grave, is the depth of their understanding."

peacemaker

:thumbsup: Good one

I wanted to mention there is this strange scene in the Old Testament where David is chased around and around a mountain by King Saul who is trying to kill him.  It seems to go on forever [I can't remember how long].  Anyway, what you said reminded me of that.

perhaps that's where that song comes from.

she be going round the mountain when she comes
going round the mountain when she comes
she'll be riding 6 fat horses when she comes
blah blah blah

Exodus 12:5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:

This verse shows two things:
1] Sheep and goats are equally acceptable for God.
2] When we read lamb, we should read sheep-lamb and goat-lamb.

:2c:

Please read reply #5 and #8.

After the baptism of Jesus He was led into the wildernes by the HS. This is symbolic for the priest (HS) guiding the goat (Jesus) into the wildernes. (the goat carried away sins)
During crucifixion Jesus was the Lamb.

Do you think it's possible it has paralels with post #5 and #8. In other words was Jesus growing from a babe to a man. Being taught, corrected etc.
Was His ministry His LoF.
:mblush:
:dontknow:

Beautiful extension of the priest and goat type WW. I do think Jesus ministry was His refining fire ("He learned obedience through the things He suffered" (Heb 5:8)

Jesus Himself said "Everyone will be salted with fire and every sacrifice seasoned with salt"

I think the LOF is different. An experience of penetrating light/fire for those who reject love and embrace self-centeredness/sin. Jesus was tempted in all manner like as we are(fire) but without sin(pure gold untouched by alloy and revealed by fire as glory).

The prince of this world comes but he has nothing in me.

 :cloud9: Amen, that was very good, WW.... :thumbsup:

   he learned obediance through the things He suffered....today and tomorrow I will go on casting out demons..and on the third day,I shall be perfected[

   let my people go 3 days journey in the wilderness to offer a sacrifice pleasing unto me[God's words to pharoah,per Moses]

    we each have our own sheep and goat....? 3 days in grave preaching to the dead=casting out demons/satan into LOF= 2nd death?

   satan released...surrounded 'camp' of Holy city...fire come down consumed them=LOF?

3 days -faith, because my soul trusted in Him, I am crucified with Christ, I live, yet not I and the life I live in the flesh I live by the faith of the son of God, caught up to the throne..... or 40 days, Today if you hear His voice harden not your hearts as they did in the wilderness and saw my works forty years-soul saved but lose the reward, works burned up-LOF

 :thumbsup: