The sheep and the goat

[Quaesitor]

I was wondering yesterday, Jesus tells us that the sheep hear His voice and recognize Truth. When I heard about UR, I did not fight back, it came as so right, so true, I recognized Jesus' voice right there.

Is it possible that there are a lot more religious folks that we think and that they look like sheep in every aspect but are acting unconsciously (because they sincerely believe to be sheep)?

Or are they just veiled?

Because, they judge without hearing first and when they hear they refuse all truth.

[WhiteWings]

Can sheep judge sheep? Maybe we are the veiled sheep...
Lots are veiled because they are the ones gnashing their teeth

(btw what about the goat?)

[Quaesitor]

Can sheep judge sheep? Maybe we are the veiled sheep...
Lots are veiled because they are the ones gnashing their teeth

(btw what about the goat?)

Well that's already my question, can we judge who's a sheep and who's a goat?

I know we are all veiled about a lot of Truth because we get revelations everyday.
But Jesus said the sheep hears and recognises the Shepherd's voice.

[WhiteWings]

The Shepherd has sheep of His flock but also unites the sheep of the other flock.
If humanity are sheep of one of the two flocks; then who are the goats?
Goats are also clean animals because God accepted them for sacrifice.

Early Christians did even draw Jesus as a Shepherd with a goat on his shoulder

[Lefein]

Just a note of interest!

The Greek word used in the passages talking about the sheep on his right going into life, and the goats on his left going into the aionion chastening;

The word for goat is "eriphia" (and variations, lol...Greek grammar and all that), which is to say "kid", a baby goat.  They aren't adult goats, but the sheep aren't called lambs, they are adult sheep.  The word for sheep is "probata", where as in revelation the word for lamb is "arnion".

In all of the New Testament, the only other time a goat that is not a kid, or eriphia is mentioned, is in Hebrews, when it speaks of the blood of he-goats and bulls for sacrifices, the word for he-goat being "tragon".

So you have adult sheep who ministered to the "needs" of Jesus, the sheep doing to others as unto the Lord.  And then you have kids, baby goats/young goats, who haven't, who are sent to be chastised.

Its kind of curious...that this came up just a few days after I stumbled upon it in the greek readings.

[WhiteWings]

Very interesting Lefein. I checked it and it remains to be seen that the Bible speaks of sheep and goats....
Seems like the verse is about young and old (in Christ's teachings)
Matthew 25:33 And he will set, the sheep, indeed, on his right hand, but, the goats, on the left.



πρόβατον
probaton/sheep
Thayer Definition:
1) any four footed, tame animal accustomed to graze, small cattle
1a) a sheep, and so always in the NT  <==== Is that a fact or doctrine?
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: probably from a presumed. derivative of G4260
Citing in TDNT: 6:689, 936
πρόβατον
próbaton/sheep; gen. probátou, neut. noun from probaínō (G4260), to go before, walk ahead. Whatever walks forward. In the Ionic and Doric usages it was spoken of quadrupeds (in distinction from bipeds, and things flying, creeping, or swimming).
Generally, tá próbata were animals, but especially smaller animals such as sheep and goats (Mat 7:15, "in the dress of sheep" [a.t.]; Mat 9:36; Mat 10:16; Mat 12:11-12; Mat 18:12; Mar 6:34; Luk 15:4, Luk 15:6; Joh 2:14-15; Joh 10:1-4, Joh 10:12-13; Act 8:32; Rom 8:36; 1Pe 2:25; Rev 18:13; Sept.: Gen 12:16; Gen 13:5; Exo 12:3 ff.). In Attic and NT usage sheep are distinguished from goats (Mat 25:32-33). Figuratively of those under the care and watch of someone as sheep under a shepherd (Mat 10:6; Mat 15:24; Mat 26:31; Mar 14:27; Joh 10:7-8, Joh 10:11, Joh 10:15-16; Joh 21:16-17; Heb 13:20).
In some texts as in Joh 21:16-17 the word is found in its diminutive form, probátion, little sheep. This is to be distinguished from arníon (G721), lamb. Probátion was used as a term of endearment. Sheep, on account of their simplicity, mildness, inoffensiveness, patience and obedience, are used as emblems of believers in Christ (Joh 10:15-16, Joh 10:26-27 [cf. Mat 25:32-33; Heb 13:20]). Lost or straying sheep represent unconverted persons wandering in sin and error (Mat 10:6; Mat 15:24; Joh 10:26-27; 1Pe 2:25 [cf. Mat 9:36; Mar 6:34]).
Deriv.: probatikós (G4262), pertaining to sheep.
Ant.: ériphos (G2056), a goat; eríphion (G2055), a kid, small goat; trágos (G5131), he-goat.
ἐρίφιον
eriphion/goat
Thayer Definition:
1) a kid, a young goat
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G2056ἐρίφιον
eríphion/goat; gen. eriphíou, neut. noun, a diminutive of ériphos (G2056), a goat. A kid, young goat (Mat 25:33). The words ériphos, a young goat, and the diminutive eríphion, appear in the picture of the last judgment where they are contrasted with sheep (próbata [G4263]). The point of contrast lies in the color rather than the character of the animals, the sheep being pure white while the goats are mostly covered with long black hair. In Son 4:1, the locks of the beloved are compared to "a flock of goats, that appear from Mount Gilead." The Son of Man shall separate all the nations "as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats" (Mat 25:32), which simile is quite true to pastoral life. Sheep and goats pasture together, but never trespass on each other's domains; they are kept together but they do not mix; they may be seen to enter the fold in company, but once inside they are kept separate.

[Quaesitor]

Really interesting, why did Jesus use the word for baby or young goats?

[Lefein]

I'd say it is for the same reason he referred to the Syro-Phoenician - gentile woman as a "dog", yet it actually means "puppy".

The religious-caste of today like to shout:

"AND JESUS CALLED HER A DOG!  IS JESUS ABOVE USING INSULTS TO GET HIS WAY!?  HALLELUJAH GLOREH TO GAWD! *stomp*  Praise Jee-zuhs!"

They call the ones on the left "Goat"...while forgetting it is just a kid.  In the same way they call the gentiles dogs, while forgetting they are just puppies.

[WhiteWings]

^KJVMat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

^WWMat 25:33 And he shall set the old on his right hand, but the babes on the left.

νήπιος
nēpios
Thayer Definition:
1) an infant, little child
2) a minor, not of age
3) metaphorically childish, untaught, unskilled
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from an obsolete particle ne- (implying negation) and G2031
Citing in TDNT: 4:912, 631
^KJVTit 2:11-12  11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

παιδεύω
paideuō
Thayer Definition:
1) to train children
1a) to be instructed or taught or learn
1b) to cause one to learn
2) to chastise
2a) to chastise or castigate with words, to correct
2a1) of those who are moulding the character of others by reproof and admonition
2b) of God
2b1) to chasten by the affliction of evils and calamities
2c) to chastise with blows, to scourge
2c1) of a father punishing his son
2c2) of a judge ordering one to be scourged
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G3816
Citing in TDNT: 5:596, 753

Sheeps and goats is about judgement.
^KJV1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Chastened=teaching => See defenition above.
κρίνω
krinō
Thayer Definition:
1) to separate, put asunder, to pick out, select, choose
2) to approve, esteem, to prefer
3) to be of opinion, deem, think, to be of opinion
4) to determine, resolve, decree
5) to judge
5a) to pronounce an opinion concerning right and wrong
5a1) to be judged, i.e. summoned to trial that one's case may be examined and judgment passed upon it
5b) to pronounce judgment, to subject to censure
5b1) of those who act the part of judges or arbiters in matters of common life, or pass judgment on the deeds and words of others
6) to rule, govern
6a) to preside over with the power of giving judicial decisions, because it was the prerogative of kings and rulers to pass judgment
7) to contend together, of warriors and combatants
7a) to dispute
7b) in a forensic sense
7b1) to go to law, have suit at law
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: perhaps a primitive word
Citing in TDNT: 3:921, 469

More

[Quaesitor]

Gold!

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Another side note on goats.....when you run it down it means to go in circles. Sheep follow the shepherd wherever, including up over the mountain. Goats keep going round and round it. Doing that for a long time, would create a rut, and make the mountain appear bigger, LOL. All of us have a dual nature like this, that we are having trained by the Lord.

Interestingly, Galilee is included in the word groupings on goats, and it means "a circuit". Blessings....

[WhiteWings]

I'd say it is for the same reason he referred to the Syro-Phoenician - gentile woman as a "dog", yet it actually means "puppy".

The religious-caste of today like to shout:

"AND JESUS CALLED HER A DOG!  IS JESUS ABOVE USING INSULTS TO GET HIS WAY!?  HALLELUJAH GLOREH TO GAWD! *stomp*  Praise Jee-zuhs!"

They call the ones on the left "Goat"...while forgetting it is just a kid.  In the same way they call the gentiles dogs, while forgetting they are just puppies.

She responds with amazing understanding and faith. She is asking if Jewish failure can's result in Gentile blessing. Can't Gentiles have what Jews reject. She reveals what God is doing in the world. Israel's failure will result in Gentile blessing. Rom 9-11. He fed 5000 Jews, now he will go feed 4000 Gentiles. There are no more restrictions on the basis of food. Peter didn't learn this till Acts 10. Jesus doesn't call Gentiles "dogs" anymore because they are no longer outsiders.

Read full article.

[eaglesway]

Lefein your post was very interesting and I really appreciate it. I still see Jesus as being purposely difficult with the syro-phoenician woman....Insult is surely too strong a word, but definitely He tested her, even tho perhaps he already saw into her heart and knew how she would respond. I kno wht you mean tho about those who seem to get excited by the idea of Jesus insulting someone- because they think it gives them permission to be insulting and arrogant towards the people they judge.

Perhaps the goats(kids) go to the left, closest to His heart, because He is a good shepherd, and is long-suffering towards men, not willing that any perish.

Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

1Co 3:1-3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
(Jas 3:14-16)


These are probably among those who are saved "as through flames", for the flaming eyes of the one who "tries the reins and the hearts"... "will search out all that is hidden in darkness and bring it to light".

Therefore, "confess your faults to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed"- because, "if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness".

Let there be light! It is so much easier to come clean now :o)

[micah7:9]

I just like what you said Eaglesway.  :grin:

[Molly]

Something that always used to confuse me, I just realized, is that you guys are always looking eons ahead to the salvation of all.

I think it's tempting, then, to interpret all scripture in the light of this--or to feel that you must.

Whereas, Jesus talked a lot about this eon, a little about the one passing at his time, and a little about the end of the age--is it reasonable to try and fit everything he said into the future?  Revelation does that, Paul does some of that, but wasn't Jesus giving us instruction about the age we are living in most of all?  If he is expecting to gather his sheep in this age, and they are the few, it is for a purpose, and we can't get from here to there without it.


Revelation 17:14
They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers."

[Beloved Servant]

Antichrist:
Denying Jesus Christ is come in the Flesh.


1 John 4:3; And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ
is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of
antichrist,
whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7; For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ
is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an
antichrist.

[peacemaker]

:cloud9: Another side note on goats.....when you run it down it means to go in circles. Sheep follow the shepherd wherever, including up over the mountain. Goats keep going round and round it. Doing that for a long time, would create a rut, and make the mountain appear bigger, LOL. All of us have a dual nature like this, that we are having trained by the Lord.

Interestingly, Galilee is included in the word groupings on goats, and it means "a circuit". Blessings....

Interesting, the worldly churches also appear to go around and around in circles.

"The only difference between a rut and the grave, is the depth of their understanding."

peacemaker

[eaglesway]

 always is such a big word  :laughing7:

[Quaesitor]

Something that always used to confuse me, I just realized, is that you guys are always looking eons ahead to the salvation of all.

I think it's tempting, then, to interpret all scripture in the light of this--or to feel that you must.

Whereas, Jesus talked a lot about this eon, a little about the one passing at his time, and a little about the end of the age--is it reasonable to try and fit everything he said into the future?  Revelation does that, Paul does some of that, but wasn't Jesus giving us instruction about the age we are living in most of all?  If he is expecting to gather his sheep in this age, and they are the few, it is for a purpose, and we can't get from here to there without it.


Revelation 17:14
They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers."

I have to agree, Jesus' words make much more sense if taken in the light of NOW is the time for everything.

[Beloved Servant]

Wow, we're having church today!
Praise you Lord.

[eaglesway]

   I agree that Now is the Time and Today is the Day, our God, who was and is and will be, has given us History and Prophecy, so that we know where we are coming from, where we are and where we are going. It is all apart of the conversation. Sometimes I feel as tho we debate whether the coin is heads- or is it tails? The coin is all that and more.

[Beloved Servant]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NN9hX61vhg&feature=related

[Molly]

There is very little in the Bible that points to universal salvation.  It is very well hidden.

I've kept an open mind about it, even though I would have to say I believed it as a child, but as an adult, I need proof.

The study of the ages we did recently, opened everything up for me.  That, and the restitution of all things cited in Acts 3:21.  No one ever mentions these. Also, reading the early church fathers helped.

It's amazing how a few assumptions can change the whole picture, but God has ages and ages to achieve his goals.

21 Whom it behooveth heaven to receive, [till] into the times of restitution of all things, which the Lord spake by the mouth of his holy prophets from the world.
--Acts 3:21

[eaglesway]

There is very little in the Bible that points to universal salvation.  It is very well hidden.



21 Whom it behooveth heaven to receive, [till] into the times of restitution of all things, which the Lord spake by the mouth of his holy prophets from the world.
--Acts 3:21

It is hidden, but it is revealed as well :o)


Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
(Eph 1:9-10)


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For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
(Col 1:19-20)

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. (Rom 11:32-36)

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
(1Co 2:7-10)



Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
(Rom 16:25-26)

Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
(Mat 13:33-35)

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
(Act 3:19-21)

This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?"
(Joh 12:38)

Indeed, to whom, but little children, for God has chosen the foolish things to confound the wise and the mighty. It makes perfect sense you believed it as a child.

"BEHOLD (See, Understand-)I AM MAKING ALL THINGS NEW"

[WhiteWings]

It is hidden, but it is revealed as well :o)

But where exactly is it hidden?
In the inspired Greek and/or man made translations?

The sheep from the parable are the elect/first fruits.
^YLTJohn 10
16 and other sheep I have that are not of this fold, these also it behoveth me to bring, and my voice they will hear, and there shall become one flock--one shepherd.

There are also sheep that are not of His flock but they will join His flock. It can be argued that only a few sheep that are not of His flock will join.
^YLTMatt 25
33 and he shall set the sheep indeed on his right hand, and the goats on the left.
34 `Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
35 for I did hunger, and ye gave me to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and ye received me;
36 naked, and ye put around me; I was infirm, and ye looked after me; in prison I was, and ye came unto me.
37 `Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, and we nourished? or thirsting, and we gave to drink?
38 and when did we see thee a stranger, and we received? or naked, and we put around?
39 and when did we see thee infirm, or in prison, and we came unto thee?
40 `And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did it to one of these my brethren--the least--to me ye did it .
41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;
42 for I did hunger, and ye gave me not to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me not to drink;
43 a stranger I was, and ye did not receive me; naked, and ye put not around me; infirm, and in prison, and ye did not look after me.
44 `Then shall they answer, they also, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in prison, and we did not minister to thee?
45 `Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of these, the least, ye did it not to me.
46 And these (goats) shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

The above verses clearly show there are only two groups. Saved-sheep and lost-goats.
If the the verses are only about the sheep of His flock then the sheep not of His flock escape judgement. That's impossible if you ask me.
So for me it's clear all sheep join His flock.

What about the goats? Besides their punishment only last an age there is another thing to consider. Post 4-8 of this thread.
It all perfectly aligns. Meaning of the Greek for sheep, goat, chasten,judge, etc.


What if the real translation of this verse is something like this:
^WWMatt 25
33 And He sets His trained old sheep of His own flock on His right hand, and the to be trained lambs on His left hand so they later will hear His voice.

I have a feeling I already wrote all of this.... I wonder if there is a solid study on 'goats'.