The Harshness of God

[Beloved Servant]

                                                                              WOW!
                                                                             Claypot

                                                                         That was good.

[claypot]

I humbly thank you and say that where it came from is a mystery to me.

cp

[Beloved Servant]

No mystery to me.
That is Our Father.
That is Our Lord and Savior.
Get used to it.
There is a mighty move of the Spirit,
for those that love the Lord.

[claypot]

No mystery to me.
That is Our Father.
That is Our Lord and Savior.
Get used to it.
There is a mighty move of the Spirit,
for those that love the Lord.

With the utmost respect BServ, I want to say how the term 'Father' especially sends our minds to a individual father or grandfather figure which leads us astray and into senseless discussions about God, the All.

Not that we shouldn't use the term, we should but we should be very careful not to let it limit our minds about who and what God is.

The title 'Lord' can make us centralize the Infinite in our minds. We think of Lord and we see a individual Being on a throne wearing rings and crowns and the like. Not a bad stepping stone but if dwelled on too much can lead astray and into quagmires of endless reasonings.

I know we do sometimes see God as invisible and as only spirit and so on but when we 'need' it we tend to see God as a nice fluffy gentleman, grandfather figure. I think the latter tends to stick in our minds and that's why all the arguments through all the ages ad-infinitum.

cp

[Beloved Servant]

I understand.
I've been to the Vatican.
I'm on your page Claypot.
We are brothers in Christ.

[Paul Hazelwood]

willieH: Hi brother Pablo... :hithere:

The ATHIESTS love the classic, ..."can God create a rock that He cannot lift?"  My answer to that would be YES... but only because in His wisdom, GOD created that rock not to be lifted...  :laughing7:

Atheists love the question because believers fall all over themselves coming up with witty answers that make themselves appear superior rather than answering it.


The answer to the question that gets believers panties all up in a knot is no.

For me, it isn't about "wit" it is about reason... GOD does everything for a REASON... to include such a "rock project"...  :laughhand:

Sorry bro, ...your answer ("no") -- LIMITS Him, ...mine does not... I'll stick with mine (and btw, don't know about you, ...but I dont wear panties... so there's nothing to get in a "knot" -- :laughing7:)

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

There is a limit in either case,  in one God is unable to create something he cannot move,  in the other, God cannot move it.   

Hey Paul,

There is no limit to life. It goes on and on and on no matter what we believe.

Can God make a rock so big He can't lift it? God is the rock. It is not God and the rock, it is God, the All, so the question is a non-question. There is no size with the All so to make a rock so BIG is another comment from a finite mind (carnal mind) because the question is attempting to put a size on the All which is impossible.

Even the word we use to 'name' the All is misleading. God. God makes it seem like 'He' is a Being somewhere sitting on a throne or something. We have used the title too much I think. We have limited God in our hearts and minds slowly but surely.

There is no limit to the All. It goes on and on and on. People come and people go and beliefs come and beliefs go yet the All goes on and on and on and is absolutely no respecter of persons. It keeps moving and unless we align ourselves with 'Him' we will be left in 'His' wake.

cp

There is no limit to life, but that doesn't change the struggle many have with Gods character.

Many religious perspectives (this is not directed at you) rely on the aspect of scripture that says Gods ways are not our ways and his thoughts not our thoughts to assert things.

However, the logical outcome to that assertion is that no one can understand any of it at all.  I know of no one who will accept that we cannot understand anything.  There may be people who understand that they can be wrong, but while they are speaking and sharing, they have the belief that they can understand something.

The things I am pointing out do not reduce God to our level, it helps show that God allows us to understand some things.

From our perspective God is limitless in comparison, however, that assertion is short lived when we enter into the area of Gods Character and that is what I hope to help people see that struggle with it.

I do not struggle with it at all, lest any one mistake my posts for my searching.  Gods character is rock solid and cannot be changed to allow me to doubt it.   In that reason God cannot change what we go through and that limit to our mind is actually glorious.  God could not do it any other way, so he is not a sadistic monster, he cannot open the cocoon lest he prevent us from reaching glory, but is he limitless when it comes to understanding that to create us meant we must struggle to be free of the cocoon?   To our minds that is a limit but we have to place it within Gods Character.

That is why I agree with you concerning the strong character of God,  it does not take a strong character to cause the scenario of our experience of evil if it is not necessary.  However, if that is indeed the only way, no matter what God is, then indeed, to watch us experience it does take strong character to not step in and rip open the cocoon for us.

Why God is still righteous is because knowing what must be, he gives us the gift that he KNOWS everyone will receive.

[Molly]

Still, God is not an individual Being and if we can break away from that mindset then we will see and understand better IMO.

To me he's an individual Being.   That is what is so special about our God.  We can know Him and know his character and learn to trust his word.  He does what he says he will do.  He is who he says he is.  That's what makes Him so wonderful.  He is not the universe he created, although his character and his personality can be seen in its beauty and regularity.  And, we are blessed because we can have relationship with him.

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

[claypot]

Still, God is not an individual Being and if we can break away from that mindset then we will see and understand better IMO.

To me he's an individual Being.   That is what is so special about our God.  We can know Him and know his character and learn to trust his word.  He does what he says he will do.  He is who he says he is.  That's what makes Him so wonderful.  He is not the universe he created, although his character and his personality can be seen in its beauty and regularity.  And, we are blessed because we can have relationship with him.

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

I'm kind of surprised at some of your words Molly.

I would think you mean that God is a very intimate Being for you but to say He is an individual Being just doesn't seem like something you would really believe but I am probably wrong and you see what you see, who am I to argue.

May the Infinite All (sounds new age-ish doesn't it) bless you and keep you and shine upon you and that good stuff!!!

cp

[Beloved Servant]

Yes CP,
it does sound new-age-ish.
I still prefer what our Lord Jesus Christ used: Father.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Still, God is not an individual Being and if we can break away from that mindset then we will see and understand better IMO.

To me he's an individual Being.   That is what is so special about our God.  We can know Him and know his character and learn to trust his word.  He does what he says he will do.  He is who he says he is.  That's what makes Him so wonderful.  He is not the universe he created, although his character and his personality can be seen in its beauty and regularity.  And, we are blessed because we can have relationship with him.

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

I'm kind of surprised at some of your words Molly.

I would think you mean that God is a very intimate Being for you but to say He is an individual Being just doesn't seem like something you would really believe but I am probably wrong and you see what you see, who am I to argue.

May the Infinite All (sounds new age-ish doesn't it) bless you and keep you and shine upon you and that good stuff!!!

cp

Nothing wrong with new age beliefs,  they are no more self centered than your average believer.   :happy3:

[claypot]

Paul, you wrote.....

That is why I agree with you concerning the strong character of God,  it does not take a strong character to cause the scenario of our experience of evil if it is not necessary.  However, if that is indeed the only way, no matter what God is, then indeed, to watch us experience it does take strong character to not step in and rip open the cocoon for us.

Your words are good, all of them IMO.

I know what you mean and I have used the idea of God 'watching' us too but I am seeing something a little different lately and that is that God is all of life moving like an ocean wave. Not even an ocean wave, that seems almost too unfeeling and too much like a unfeeling kind of power but you get my drift maybe.

Anyway, I see God as this 'All' that is all and will be in all soon. I see this wave or essence permeating and giving to life all that is created for life.

God does not so much 'watch' as 'He' is moving over us, around us and in us (God so loves the world [us] that He sends His Son.....). It takes a powerful force and an intimate one at that to permeate dead things and create life but this is our 'Father' doing what He does best.

None of my thoughts take away the personal aspect of God to me. Actually it strengthens it. I feel much more one with 'Him' somehow.

My mantra lately has been Jesus, Jesus, Jesus...................

Life has been a bit hard lately and there's just something about that name that chases the demons away and leaves me to contemplate our Father, the Essence of Life.

cp

[Paul Hazelwood]

The notion of ETERNAL means to me, that whatever IS Eternal, does not need change for it is already COMPLETE... If something is PERFECT [complete], what can be done to ENHANCE it?  If I were to get 100 correct answers on a 100 T/F test, ...what could I have done to exceed my effort?  :dontknow: -- NOTHING!

The issue, really is not about changing or improving, it is actually dealing with the reality of evil and suffering that we experience whether we believe in  God or the flying spagetti monster.   You can believe in either one and it changes nothing.   

There are spiritualists that demand that evil is all an illusion and perhaps it is,  that doesn't change that children get raped and murder takes place.  It is a denial of their own circumstances, as they try to teach such a thing, they themselves are in this planet feeling and experiencing this "illusion".

This for the most part comes down to being able to answer for the beliefs we have to those who struggle and seek.

Whether it is already complete is not the issue, it is if what we believe in is of sound character.   I do not believe that a "limitless" God has a strong and righteous character to declare suffering if suffering was not necessary.   

What in terms of limitless is righteous if he declared suffering when in his limitless power suffering was not required?

1Pt 3:15 yet hallow the Lord Christ in your hearts, ever ready with a defense for everyone who is demanding from you an account concerning the expectation in you, but with meekness and fear,



Gods completion of his goal did take us into account, since we are the inheritors of his plan, then he planned for all our choices.  his foreknowledge, taking into account how things must be, did react to us, but in righteousness and wisdom so that we could never remain hopeless forever.

He does form the clay, KNOWING,  that CLAY can only be formed properly one way, but that within that limit of reality,  forming clay to limitless variations of beauty.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Paul, you wrote.....

That is why I agree with you concerning the strong character of God,  it does not take a strong character to cause the scenario of our experience of evil if it is not necessary.  However, if that is indeed the only way, no matter what God is, then indeed, to watch us experience it does take strong character to not step in and rip open the cocoon for us.

Your words are good, all of them IMO.

I know what you mean and I have used the idea of God 'watching' us too but I am seeing something a little different lately and that is that God is all of life moving like an ocean wave. Not even an ocean wave, that seems almost too unfeeling and too much like a unfeeling kind of power but you get my drift maybe.

Anyway, I see God as this 'All' that is all and will be in all soon. I see this wave or essence permeating and giving to life all that is created for life.

God does not so much 'watch' as 'He' is moving over us, around us and in us (God so loves the world [us] that He sends His Son.....). It takes a powerful force and an intimate one at that to permeate dead things and create life but this is our 'Father' doing what He does best.

None of my thoughts take away the personal aspect of God to me. Actually it strengthens it. I feel much more one with 'Him' somehow.

My mantra lately has been Jesus, Jesus, Jesus...................

Life has been a bit hard lately and there's just something about that name that chases the demons away and leaves me to contemplate our Father, the Essence of Life.

cp

Hi cp,

In how I see things "watch us" was a poor choice of words.

I believe that God is existance.  He is indeed the essence of what "is".   

It is when we work out Gods character to be strong and trustworthy that we find peace in the valleys.

[claypot]

Paul, you wrote.....

That is why I agree with you concerning the strong character of God,  it does not take a strong character to cause the scenario of our experience of evil if it is not necessary.  However, if that is indeed the only way, no matter what God is, then indeed, to watch us experience it does take strong character to not step in and rip open the cocoon for us.

Your words are good, all of them IMO.

I know what you mean and I have used the idea of God 'watching' us too but I am seeing something a little different lately and that is that God is all of life moving like an ocean wave. Not even an ocean wave, that seems almost too unfeeling and too much like a unfeeling kind of power but you get my drift maybe.

Anyway, I see God as this 'All' that is all and will be in all soon. I see this wave or essence permeating and giving to life all that is created for life.

God does not so much 'watch' as 'He' is moving over us, around us and in us (God so loves the world [us] that He sends His Son.....). It takes a powerful force and an intimate one at that to permeate dead things and create life but this is our 'Father' doing what He does best.

None of my thoughts take away the personal aspect of God to me. Actually it strengthens it. I feel much more one with 'Him' somehow.

My mantra lately has been Jesus, Jesus, Jesus...................

Life has been a bit hard lately and there's just something about that name that chases the demons away and leaves me to contemplate our Father, the Essence of Life.

cp

Hi cp,

In how I see things "watch us" was a poor choice of words.

I believe that God is existance.  He is indeed the essence of what "is".   

It is when we work out Gods character to be strong and trustworthy that we find peace in the valleys.

Wowzer, that spoke volumes to me, Paul. Thanks. God is existence. That's way cool. That resonates with where I'm at right now. The essence of what is.......no way to say it any better!

cp

[Molly]

Still, God is not an individual Being and if we can break away from that mindset then we will see and understand better IMO.

To me he's an individual Being.   That is what is so special about our God.  We can know Him and know his character and learn to trust his word.  He does what he says he will do.  He is who he says he is.  That's what makes Him so wonderful.  He is not the universe he created, although his character and his personality can be seen in its beauty and regularity.  And, we are blessed because we can have relationship with him.

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

I'm kind of surprised at some of your words Molly.

I would think you mean that God is a very intimate Being for you but to say He is an individual Being just doesn't seem like something you would really believe but I am probably wrong and you see what you see, who am I to argue.

May the Infinite All (sounds new age-ish doesn't it) bless you and keep you and shine upon you and that good stuff!!!

cp

12And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

--Rev 1


Daniel 7:9
I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

[Beloved Servant]

Yes Cp,
but differentiate, the fact, that the Lord is not just some vibration "out there."
He is a loving, caring, Creator that wants us to know Him intimately.
Again, as Father.
Dare I say, as our Love.
Who is...The Shulamite Woman, breathtakingly beautiful in her peasant's garb ???

[Molly]

12And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw ....

--Rev 1



"I turned"

G1994
ἐπιστρέφω
epistrephō
ep-ee-stref'-o
From G1909 and G4762; to revert (literally, figuratively or morally): - come (go) again, convert, (re-) turn (about, again).



And, being turned,



"I saw"

G1492
εἴδω
eidō
i'-do
A primary verb; used only in certain past tenses, the others being borrowed from the equivalent, G3700 and G3708; properly to see (literally or figuratively); by implication (in the perfect only) to know: - be aware, behold, X can (+ not tell), consider, (have) known (-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand,

[reFORMer]

When I call Him "Father" it makes me think of what I'm supposed to understand myself to be.

[Raggedy Anne]

Claypot,

I share your amazement with what certainly appears to us earthlings as God's dilemma. 
This one thing tries my faith more than any other.   To entertain the notion that all the
suffering of Creation is meaningless is more than I can bear.  That's why I don't see how
people can bear the thought that atheists embrace "there is no God"....  To consider for
a moment that billions of people are born, suffer and die for nothing is just unbearable.
I think God is harsh indeed, and also very loving.   You can't have one without the other.

Anne

[claypot]

Claypot,

I share your amazement with what certainly appears to us earthlings as God's dilemma. 
This one thing tries my faith more than any other.   To entertain the notion that all the
suffering of Creation is meaningless is more than I can bear.  That's why I don't see how
people can bear the thought that atheists embrace "there is no God"....  To consider for
a moment that billions of people are born, suffer and die for nothing is just unbearable.
I think God is harsh indeed, and also very loving.   You can't have one without the other.

Anne

Thanks Anne, we're 'hearing' each other and that's good!

cp

[Beloved Servant]

I hear ya'all too.
But, the harshness of God — I'm having trouble settling that idea.
For the nature of God is love. Pure Love.
And the tough-love theory I think is all carnal.
We must be just coming short of truth here.
So close yet so far.
Maybe we have it backwards somehow,
but I can't put my finger on it.

[claypot]

I hear ya'all too.
But, the harshness of God — I'm having trouble settling that idea.
For the nature of God is love. Pure Love.
And the tough-love theory I think is all carnal.
We must be just coming short of truth here.
So close yet so far.
Maybe we have it backwards somehow,
but I can't put my finger on it.

BServ, you gotta admit that for God to create knowing rapes and tortures and beheadings and medical experiments and so on are going to be done by one human upon other humans that God had to have a toughness and a harshness that we can't even comprehend. God created knowing these things would occur and He went ahead anyway. This is harsh, anyway you look at it.

Again I'm not saying it is harsh in an evil sense or sinful sense. No by no means. God is light and good so all the rapes and such, when all is said and done have to be part of the tapestry that is perfect.

cp

[Beloved Servant]

I do, I do, I do

I do, I do, I do

Just sumthin' inside of me says there is love in it all.
Sheer love.
                Pure love.
                              Overwhelming love.
                                                          Perhaps, He gives those in that tribulation a grace that we do not perceive.
                A peace that goes beyond comprehension.
                                                          A separate, enduring unity with Himself.

[claypot]

I do, I do, I do

I do, I do, I do

Just sumthin' inside of me says there is love in it all.
Sheer love.
                Pure love.
                              Overwhelming love.
                                                          Perhaps, He gives those in that tribulation a grace that we do not perceive.
                A peace that goes beyond comprehension.
                                                          A separate, enduring unity with Himself.

That's so good to hear BServ. I have always hoped that there is 'grace that we do not perceive' in all the evil. I think you got something there and it is good for the soul, mine anyway.

Thanks.

cp

[reFORMer]

One of the things neglected so far is the fact that though there was a Noah who went through the flood, Enoch walked with God and was not for God took him that he should not see death.  While many prophets for their witness were slain by the religous, Elijah went up in a whirlwind.  The fact is Paul was in a race, forgetting what was behind and reaching forward for all he was worth so if by any means possible he might be summoned into a higher dimension in Christ.  He knew it was by faith.  "9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:  10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead." (Php 3:9-11, AV)  There is a door that no human can shut, a door that Jesus opened into such victory that we may rise above all sin, sickness, sorrow, pain and death.  "It has been done," is Jesus' word from the throne.

Though few there be that enter the life gate, it does not mean it is not reachable.  Those who are called the Overcomers defeat every sin, bondage, darkness, sickness, lack and death.  It is all in the presence of Him and our knowing Him.  Those who are brought to that place will set all creation free.  It is our person to person intimacy with God that brings about the change in us.  The call to come up higher is God's blessing to bestow.

Psalm 65:1-4 (AV)...
1 Praise waiteth for thee, O God, in Sion: and unto thee shall the vow be performed.
2 O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come.
3 Iniquities prevail against me: as for our transgressions, thou shalt purge them away.
4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.