The Bible, an excuse for Gay Prejudice?

[marie glen]

I think homosexuality is an addiction just like drugs and alcohol can become addictions. I have some fqamily members who are drug addicts and alcoholics, they know I don't approve of this but they also know I love them. Only God can change a person. I believe we should let them know these things are not good for them as well as for society but all the while let them know we love them and God loves them more. To look the other way, or go along and agree with their way of thinking is not helping anyone. Would anyone who had a child who was a drug addict not let them know the way you feel about it and try to get them help? In a loving manner of course.

CHB   

A few years ago, I felt I could see my daughter being a little bit pulled or persuaded into checking out homosexuality.. Yes, spiritually, or by spirits (tho not all here would agree with such an observation). I prayed and prayed and rebuked those spirits.. It was during a time when it seemed to be a trend. A lot of young women were toying with the idea.. somewhere around the time or after Madonna, I think it was, had kissed another female artist.. I think. I'm not very up on celebrity doings.. My daughter of course knows how I and her dad feel about the issue.

That said, although I feel very strongly and prayed real hard when it concerned my own daughter, when it comes to others, I basically don't say much if anything.. If a door is opened or someone asks, then yes, of course I will. And I instruct 'em, when they're children! But other than that, not much, as it's been published far and wide that to express an opinion about it.. well, you get labeled as a hater. Which as some posts further down say, is a more grievous thing! I don't tell couples who cohabit without being married that it's not God's way, either! I don't tell people not to cuss.. not to smoke.. nothing.. I might tell some folks about being moderate in all things.. that's about it. Am I right? or am I just chicken? :Chinscratch:  :laughing7: I do tell folks (mostly unchurched folks) about UR and almost anybody who will listen about 'end' days Bible prophecy.. and I do talk about the innocent preborn (but almost always courteously). :Peace2:

[CHB]

I am the same way about telling people whether they are right or wrong about anything. But if I get the oportunity I usually take it and say something depending on who it is and the situation. We have to use dIscernment in these matters.

CHB

[marie glen]

Amen! :iagree:

[shawn]

Another thing to keep in mind is that this is not a theocracy.  It's a democracy, where people should be afforded the right to choose their own path not directed by the Bible or our belief system.  It's about equal rights for all races, creeds, and lifestyles.  It is not our job to dictate legislation of morality specifically one that does not harm others.

(Of course, the entire world is a theocracy, but just keep it under your hat for now.  Very few seem to want to think of it that way.)  Morality dictated by the state is unacceptable to good Americans or Christians; but, that is certainly what is happening.  To publicaly call homosexuality a sin is increasingly considered a thought crime, a crime against the state, one for which our children can be taken away from us to be raised by the state instead.  If we do not stand for Christian morality we lose ground to statism.  They are the ones changing the system.  It is exactly because homosexuality does great harm to others we must be allowed to speak in the public square.

Not sure I understood any of that.  Adultery, divorce, premarital sex etc are all sin...sins that can harm others.  Do we make them illegal?  Do we take away legal rights afforded to US citizens because they engage in these behaviors?  Frankly, that thought scares me.  It looks much like the Middle East.

The fact is this, yes homosexuality is sin.  But, to say those who engage this behavior should have less rights than yourself is inconsistent, prejudicial and arbitrary.

American citizens should be afforded all rights independent of religious belief systems.  I do not want preachers, pastors, priests etc dictating law to American citizens. 

As for all the talk of the state taking our kids if we talk out against homosexuality, well I have no idea what you are talking about.

[shawn]

I think homosexuality is an addiction just like drugs and alcohol can become addictions. I have some fqamily members who are drug addicts and alcoholics, they know I don't approve of this but they also know I love them. Only God can change a person. I believe we should let them know these things are not good for them as well as for society but all the while let them know we love them and God loves them more. To look the other way, or go along and agree with their way of thinking is not helping anyone. Would anyone who had a child who was a drug addict not let them know the way you feel about it and try to get them help? In a loving manner of course.

CHB   

I think for some you are right.  I believe some have sexual addictions, and are so numb to most sexual stimuli, only something as outrageous as same sex relations pushes those reward pathways in the brain.  They use sex like a drug, pushing the limits with odder and odder sexual acts.

But, I'm convinced there are many others who were born this way.  To ask them to be with the opposite sex, would be like asking you to be with the same sex.  For me, this is where it gets trickier.  If you are wired to be with the same sex, you settle down with one person you love, get married and seek a relationship with God...does God reject that person?  Only God really knows the answer to that question.  So, I err on the side of love rather than making it my mission to tell the world how homosexuals are bad and evil people.  I do so, because I have sinned much in my life.  I have no room to judge any man.  I do so because I want to be an extension of Gods grace and love.

[lomarah]

I'm going to describe the video a bit more because nobody has commented about it yet which probably means no one has watched it.

This man realized he was different around college age. He realized he wasn't attracted to women like all of his friends were. He knew that the bible called homosexuality a sin. He decided to do as much as he could to be a "good" christian, hoping that God would take away his desires for other men. He was very involved in the church, reading his bible, leading people to salvation, eventually working his way up the religious ladder. All the religious leaders loved him and told him he would be their replacement one day. However he realized that his desire for men was not going away, it was getting stronger. He begged God to take it away, doing everything he thought God wanted from him, believing if he was good enough God would change him. Wasn't working. He went to his leader one day and confessed that he was afraid he was going to screw up big time, that he was going to fall. The man asked what he meant and he told him - he struggled big time with homosexual desires. The man stared at him for a while and finally told him to take his things and leave. This happened a few more times and finally he had had enough. He said screw God, screw christianity, I can't fight this anymore.

He started living an openly gay lifestyle, completely gave up on church and God. He loved his new friends, they welcomed him with open arms and accepted him just the way he was. He got a boyfriend and a house and settled down. But he knew something was still lacking.

One day he heard Father's voice - "I love you." He was stunned. He started to hear it more frequently, and at times when many would think Father would've rained down fire and brimstone - in a gay bar, after being promiscuous, etc. Finally one day after hearing Father speaking to him he freaked out. He yelled at God, "I did everything I could! You created me like this, it's your fault I'm this way and you hold it against me!! I prayed, went to church, read my bible, led people to You, and you still didn't take it away!! I can't please You! I want nothing to do with You! Leave me alone!!" Father asked him after all that, "Are you finished?" He said, "Yes..." (Thinking he was about to be struck by lightning LOL.) Father said, "When did I ever ask you to do any of those things?" He said, "Huh?? I thought that's what You wanted from me?? That's what everybody told me You wanted." Father said, "You never asked me what I wanted." So he said, "Ok... what do You want?"

Father said, "I want your heart."

He said, "No God. I love my friends. I love my boyfriend. I love being gay. I refuse to give that up." Father said, "I never asked you to give those up. I want your heart." He said, "You mean I can keep my friends, my boyfriend, my gay lifestyle? You're not asking me to give those up?" Father said, "No, I just want your heart." So finally he said, "Okay God, if that's all You want, You can have my heart."

Thus began his love affair with the Lord! The Lord drew him in and gradually His love changed him. His Saviour was the love he had been looking for all along. His love filled him and he eventually left the gay lifestyle. He was LOVED FIRST. AS HE WAS. THEN AND ONLY THEN WAS HE CHANGED.

BEAUTIFUL AND AWESOME IS THE LOVE OF GOD!!!

[shawn]

That is quite a beautiful story Lomarah. 

[shawn]

I watched that video Lomarah.   Couple huge things where said...

1) Repentence was a product of living in forgiveness.  As your heart responds to Gods forgiveness (already given), our behaviors change as a result.

2) the pastor made an observation about the gay community being warm and welcoming, and how the church so often misses the mark in this regard.

Thank you for posting that. 

PS I recommend if people don't want to watch the whole video, watch from minute 33 on.  Listening to this guys advice for how to love the homosexual, the addict, the prostitute etc. was right on...IMO.

[jabcat]

I watched it Lomarah, and wanted to say something, just hadn't yet..was mulling something about it.  It was interesting.  I was glad it ended with him turning from his sin with God's help (really, empowered Him to do so).  Hallelujah!  Willy (the delivered homosexual) personally recommended to love and accept the homosexual, but to not agree with their lifestyle - which is what many have said during this type discussion.   :thumbsup:

It did raise the question for me - what about the person (there are thousands of them in the Unitarian Universalist and Metropolitan "Church" for example) who proclaim they know Jesus, yet are "gay affirming", i.e., "come and STAY as you are, God doesn't care", etc.  They go through the motions of attending services - I even know one woman personally who's "married" to her female partner, and she's attending seminary and practicing sermons - yet they say and preach that the homosexual lifestyle is holy, OK with God, not a sin, the Bible doesn't say anything about it, etc.  The fellow in the video was sought out and changed by God's love, directly to him.  That's great, reminds me of Saul/Apostle Paul.  It seems obvious it was God's will to deliver him and save him from the lifestyle.  Puzzles me about those that stay in it, "celebrating"  and condoning it - despite saying they know God.  I'm not saying many of them haven't had their spirits saved, but IMO, the scriptures are clear that lifestyle (as well as many others) isn't pleasing to God - so it seems at some point, although loving them, that when God leads, the truth still needs to be spoken - in love.   :2c:   

As others have said, and I've also said before - I don't go around "preaching" at homosexuals (or anyone else) screaming at them to repent, they're going to burn in hell, etc.  I've got my own sins, I don't need to go around punching others in the face about theirs.  I still think it behooves us to speak the truth though, as we understand it, no matter what it pertains to, when we're called/given the opportunity to do so.  Love is great, and it's "greatest" of all the things mentioned in I Cor. 13.  But the scriptures also say many other things for us to be aware of  besides love.

I have the opportunity to interact, be friendly acquaintances with several who are openly living that lifestyle.  It can be tricky, and I don't have the perfect formula for it.  But I personally don't feel it's right for me to to do anything that might show apparent approval and support to their lifestyle.  OTOH, rejecting them, ostracizing them, not being kind and loving etc., would also be wrong.  I've never done so, but if ever directly asked, I'd hope I'd have the Godly guts to say something like "I believe in loving everyone, God loves everyone, but I believe the Bible teaches, along with many other sins, that the lifestyle is wrong - and He wants to deliver us from anything that keeps us from from being in close relationship with Him.  He'll save and deliver us if we believe on Him and trust Him, etc.".  Another  :2c:  I might would wimp out though, I'm not sure.  He'd have to help me say the right words in the right attitude.

[shawn]

Just for clarification Jabcat.  I'm not sure anyone here was saying we as Christians should "agree" with the homosexual lifestyle. 

[jabcat]

No, I didn't think so...I just think it can be tricky (at least for me) to be loving while not getting caught up in the "stuff".  Like we probably wouldn't want to talk a lot and laugh/enjoy someone talking about someone robbing a bank, raping someone, etc.  I don't know, maybe somebody has some ideas/personal experiences on what worked for them.

Here's an example.  A fellow I work with, who with God's help, I really try to go out of my way to be pleasant, kind to, etc. (God really had to discipline me about it and help me).   One day I came into a meeting and he was laughing and saying that some of those present had given themselves nicknames, and his was "Tinkerbell".  He said, I guess you know I'm Tinkerbell".  I just personally don't feel right getting caught up in that type of "humor" or other detailed conversations/activities, and TO ME, showing support acceptance of the lifestyle in that manner.  Don't know if that makes sense or not - typing this quickly.  Or talking in detail about another lesbian coworker's "marriage", their trip, the ceremony, their dresses, etc...I just personally prefer to pass on those details - without seeming a prude or rejecting, etc.  Again, that tricky "balance" of loving the sinner but not approving of/participating in the sin.   :dontknow:

[jabcat]

Maybe just smiling at him, the person, without getting into a lot commenting/interacting about the topic...

[shawn]

No, I didn't think so...I just think it can be tricky (at least for me) to be loving while not getting caught up in the "stuff".  Like we probably wouldn't want to talk a lot and laugh/enjoy someone talking about someone robbing a bank, raping someone, etc.  I don't know, maybe somebody has some ideas/personal experiences on what worked for them.

Here's an example.  A fellow I work with, who with God's help, I really try to go out of my way to be pleasant, kind to, etc. (God really had to discipline me about it and help me).   One day I came into a meeting and he was laughing and saying that some of those present had given themselves nicknames, and his was "Tinkerbell".  He said, I guess you know I'm Tinkerbell".  I just personally don't feel right getting caught up in that type of "humor" or other detailed conversations/activities, and TO ME, showing support acceptance of the lifestyle in that manner.  Don't know if that makes sense or not - typing this quickly.  Or talking in detail about another lesbian coworker's "marriage", their trip, the ceremony, their dresses, etc...I just personally prefer to pass on those details - without seeming a prude or rejecting, etc.  Again, that tricky "balance" of loving the sinner but not approving of/participating in the sin.   :dontknow:

I agree it's tough.  I work with an openly gay recovering meth addict.  He is probably the best counselor we have, and is one of the most loving, kind, and helpful human beings I have ever met.  He considers himself a man of Christian faith, and has a comfort with that.  He claims to be active in his faith, and by the fruit of his love towards others I believe him.   I have no idea if he is "active" in his homosexuality, nor do I care to know.  If he is comfortable with himself, and his relationship to God...then who am I to come in and say something to disrupt his peace he has found with God?  It doesn't mean I "condone" it...it means I'm not comfortable judging another mans heart with God, sin or no sin.

As for course joking about homosexuality, well that goes for any course joking about promiscuous sexual activity that ones on outside the bounds of marriage.  We shouldnt engage any of it.  Not as a statement against homosexuality, but as a part of being separate.  I believe many of us feel a need to politicize and have tough stances against homosexuality, because we feel it reflects on our faith...or lack there of.  In the mist of worrying about ourselves we trample others, instead of embracing them allowing God to change their hearts and minds.   :2c:

[shawn]

Maybe just smiling at him, the person, without getting into a lot commenting/interacting about the topic...

Why do we feel the need to make our opinion known at all?  If we don't engage any course sex talk, people begin to understand.  We can then spend our energy loving and accepting others in their current state, just as Christ would.

[jabcat]

Maybe just smiling at him, the person, without getting into a lot commenting/interacting about the topic...

Why do we feel the need to make our opinion known at all?  If we don't engage any course sex talk, people begin to understand.  We can then spend our energy loving and accepting others in their current state, just as Christ would.

Nah, making my opinion known isn't my point..It's your second sentence I'm addressing - to jest or not to jest (join in).

What Christ did with people is an interesting topic in itself.  Everyone He loved.  Some people He chastised.  Others He totally changed by His presence.  Others, He seemed to leave them just as they were.  I think there's a whole lot involved in that topic, and would probably make a good thread.   :2c:

[shawn]

Maybe just smiling at him, the person, without getting into a lot commenting/interacting about the topic...

Why do we feel the need to make our opinion known at all?  If we don't engage any course sex talk, people begin to understand.  We can then spend our energy loving and accepting others in their current state, just as Christ would.

Nah, making my opinion known isn't my point..It's your second sentence I'm addressing - to jest or not to jest (join in).

What Christ did with people is an interesting topic in itself.  Everyone He loved.  Some people He chastised.  Others He totally changed by His presence.  Others, He seemed to leave them just as they were.  I think there's a whole lot involved in that topic, and would probably make a good thread.   :2c:

I definitely think we should never join in course sex talk of any kind.  Tinkerbell and effeminate terms are not only not funny and derogatory they refer to a nature for man that I do not believe God intended.  I see nothing wrong with excusing ourselves from such conversation with tact.

[jabcat]

Agreed.   :thumbsup:

[onlytruth]

I believe part of the issue is we make homosexual lifestyle a scapegoat.Christians in general will never partake in this lifestyle and so will villefy it .tax evasion never gets this kind of attention.Adultery in time seems to lose it's sting , As well
Lying ,cheating,coveting,other gods,we are all guilty but these things don't raise the same ire
I wonder why? ,like I said .....scapegoat, ?!

[jabcat]

It's possible you're right o.t., at least for some. I think of other questions that raises about it as well;  such as why were some things in the OT required by God to bring the penalty of death, while others were not.  Why would God destroy 2 whole cities for their sin, with the apparent final straw being the issue of sodomy?

There may be multiple reasons.  IMO, some things are more against nature than others.  Some things are more dangerous to society than others, and so forth.  Also, on a human level, I believe some things are simply more repulsive (to some/many) than others - not that they're necessarily "worse" sins, but even more against "good taste" than others.  A goofy example - if someone pushes me down, I may not like it.  If someone pushes me down into the emptied contents of a couple of Johnny-On-The-Spots (outdoor toilets), I'm going to like it even less.

I'm actually sorry to speak of some of this, but it's real stuff.  Other examples I think of;  any rape is bad, but what about rape against a helpless elderly person?  Or a disabled person.  Child.  Any murder is bad.  How about the comparison between murder of a 30 year old  strong man in a fight, vs. of a pregnant woman walking down the street?  What about the person who is a glutton but they have a higher metabolism, so they're only 20 pounds overweight, vs. the person who's also a glutton, but they weigh 500 pounds and have gotten to where they can't walk or really reasonably function in society?  They're all sin and wrong, but don't some just "set worse" than others to the human psyche?  I struggle with a food addiction/gluttony, but looking at me, you would probably never think it.  I'm usually able to control it pretty well, but periodically I "let down" and binge to a pretty ridiculous degree.  I may look athletic/whatever, but my begetting sin is still a sin.  A lot of people would probably say "oh, you don"t have a problem", whereas, someone who was so big they couldn't function, would more readily be identified or even vilified - though the sin is the same.   But doesn't it seem there's some things that generally strike us different than others?  I believe certain things just affect some people differently than other, with some things just feeling more "un-natural", or repulsive.

Maybe there are some who can more easily separate it out and it doesn't really have any felt "degrees" to them.  Those may be the folks who just better deal with it for whatever reason.  But then they may be totally grossed out the point of gagging over somebody picking their nose.   :laughing7:      In general though, I do think humans perceive things this way.  :dontknow:  Maybe our own individual make-ups, wounds, up-bringing, and experiences, etc., enter in there too.  I think as with most things, there are many aspects to it and it can be complicated if we dig at it a lot.  Probably a good reason to try to remember some basic things;  such as the old "hate the sin, love the sinner".  Isn't that what God does?  Isn't that what the Bible teaches over and over, in many illustrations?  Jesus and Paul both really taught about sins.  They even both disciplined individuals.  Yet they both loved everyone.   Just some thoughts, on a subject that really interests me (human behavior).  Blessings brother. 

[shawn]

So, you are comparing homosexuality to molesting a child?  Wow, that is quite a stretch.  I have a hard time comparing a sin where two adults agree to an act with one where there is an underaged victim who can't consent.  That appears to be "your stuff" more than a properly constructed comparison.  I agree with Jabcat that some sins carry more consequences and seem more "against nature" thus carrying more stigma. We are all sick people in our own ways (some less than others), but if you believe you are not because you haven't engaged certain thoughts or acts...more power to you.  I am guilty of murder, sexual sin, addiction, vices of many kinds, dishonesty etc....either through thought or deed.  I love much because I have been forgiven much.  If you prefer to focus on the assaults of satan, and calling blocks of people demonic then that is your perrogative.  Personally, I choose to spend my mental/spiritual energies elsewhere.

[CHB]

I watched it Lomarah, and wanted to say something, just hadn't yet..was mulling something about it.  It was interesting.  I was glad it ended with him turning from his sin with God's help (really, empowered Him to do so).  Hallelujah!  Willy (the delivered homosexual) personally recommended to love and accept the homosexual, but to not agree with their lifestyle - which is what many have said during this type discussion.   :thumbsup:

It did raise the question for me - what about the person (there are thousands of them in the Unitarian Universalist and Metropolitan "Church" for example) who proclaim they know Jesus, yet are "gay affirming", i.e., "come and STAY as you are, God doesn't care", etc.  They go through the motions of attending services - I even know one woman personally who's "married" to her female partner, and she's attending seminary and practicing sermons - yet they say and preach that the homosexual lifestyle is holy, OK with God, not a sin, the Bible doesn't say anything about it, etc.  The fellow in the video was sought out and changed by God's love, directly to him.  That's great, reminds me of Saul/Apostle Paul.  It seems obvious it was God's will to deliver him and save him from the lifestyle.  Puzzles me about those that stay in it, "celebrating"  and condoning it - despite saying they know God.  I'm not saying many of them haven't had their spirits saved, but IMO, the scriptures are clear that lifestyle (as well as many others) isn't pleasing to God - so it seems at some point, although loving them, that when God leads, the truth still needs to be spoken - in love.   :2c:   

As others have said, and I've also said before - I don't go around "preaching" at homosexuals (or anyone else) screaming at them to repent, they're going to burn in hell, etc.  I've got my own sins, I don't need to go around punching others in the face about theirs.  I still think it behooves us to speak the truth though, as we understand it, no matter what it pertains to, when we're called/given the opportunity to do so.  Love is great, and it's "greatest" of all the things mentioned in I Cor. 13.  But the scriptures also say many other things for us to be aware of  besides love.

I have the opportunity to interact, be friendly acquaintances with several who are openly living that lifestyle.  It can be tricky, and I don't have the perfect formula for it.  But I personally don't feel it's right for me to to do anything that might show apparent approval and support to their lifestyle.  OTOH, rejecting them, ostracizing them, not being kind and loving etc., would also be wrong.  I've never done so, but if ever directly asked, I'd hope I'd have the Godly guts to say something like "I believe in loving everyone, God loves everyone, but I believe the Bible teaches, along with many other sins, that the lifestyle is wrong - and He wants to deliver us from anything that keeps us from from being in close relationship with Him.  He'll save and deliver us if we believe on Him and trust Him, etc.".  Another  :2c:  I might would wimp out though, I'm not sure.  He'd have to help me say the right words in the right attitude.

Great post Jab.   :thumbsup:

CHB

[sheila]

as all men have bore the image of the corrupt one..so,too,shall all bear the image of the incorrupt.

   this is not something we can do for ourselves..it does take divine intervention

    do we all not bear a vessel of wrath fitted for destruction? is He not able to of the same lump make

  one for a dishonourable purpose...and another for honorable purpose.?

    He wittnessed to us the state of things before His return...the state men would be in.......puffed up,

  lacking natural affection,lovers of themselves..lovers of pleasure.money.among other things.


   You will know I am the Lord when I deal with you for my Name's sake..and not according to your

detestable practices.  He will purge us all of anything that is not of Him.[we know the 'wicked generation'

perishes in the wilderness and does not enter into the Holy eternal realm]  it is the end of the

good/evil mix that is upon us.

   always take the revelation of the salvation of all men into account.   the good/evil mix we see in

ourselves and all men..will be dealt with of Him. So some men havebeen turned over to satan for the

destruction of the flesh..that the spirit be saved.... mustn't that which is corruptible put on the incorruptible?


   at present do we see evil manifested in men's flesh and works?  Most certainly..but the time is

coming when the wicked will be destroyed...but all men saved...wrap your head around that.

  sin/evil in the flesh has been condemned in the flesh of man...but LOOK! I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW!!

[Lazarus Short]

    do we all not bear a vessel of wrath fitted for destruction? is He not able to of the same lump make

  one for a dishonourable purpose...and another for honorable purpose.?

 

I think I see the light here - each of us is a lump, from which God first makes a vessel (us) for a dishonorable purpose, that is to say, being a sinner in the here-and-now.  This vessel is made to destroy, fitted for destruction, and so, we die.  Later, He makes from the same lump, a vessel (again, us) for an honorable purpose, that is to say, being a glorified saint in the Kingdom. 

[sheila]

I will pour out my spirit on all flesh.  there are indeed scriptures that declare those who will not

enter into the kingdom of heaven....men who do such things..men who lie with men..etc..but look!

  that is what some of you were......so He has given evidence of what HE SHALL DO ON A LARGE SCALE!!

     He has not left us without example of His intentions and capabilities....

   DO YOU BELEIVE NOTHING CAN SEPERATE MANKIND FROM THE LOVE OF GOD SHOWN IN CHRIST JESUS?

   I AM CONVINCED..............

   BEHOLD THE LAMB OF GOD....WHO SHALL TAKE AWAY ALL THEIR SIN..........

[lomarah]

Laz - I was just thanking Father for destroying my flesh last night! I have never seen that so clearly before!  :cloud9:

Sheila...  :banana:  :banana:  :banana: !!!!