Someone help me, please...

[Michelle]

:help: :help: :help:

When it comes to my walk with the Lord, something always get in the way. I have been physically and sexually abused as a kid and I bore a grudge against God for years because He didn't protect me and stopped my abusers, but I forgave Him. I'm still not sure why. What I do know is, that grudge was only hurting me and I had to let it go. And when you only have a sister that you rarely see and a mother who doesn't understand you, you crave love like a drug-addict crave cocain. But something always hinder my walk with the Lord. Why didn't He rescue me from the people who hurt me when I was a kid, when I was crying out to Him, begging for His help? Why did He ignore me and let those people hurt me, including my own family? Why was I only saved and born again at age 28? Why didn't He do it years ago? I have forgiven Him for that, but the questions still remain unanswered. Fundies keep telling me that I have no right to question God, but since I've been a victim for so many years and suffered that much, don't I deserve an explanation? As far as I'm concerned, I was only a kid and I didn't do anything to deserve beatings and mollestation. And something that is a major hindrance in my walk with the Lord is the Old Testament. That is something I try to avoid thinking about as much as possible. I didn't read much of the OT, just a few passages here and there. I'm still not done reading the NT. But I try to avoid thinking about the OT as much as possible. I just mentally back-file it, like some Fundies do with "eternal torment". So, in some way, I understand them. But the worst thing is, I'm not good at mental back-filling. In some cases, the more you try to avoid thinking about something, the more you think about it. And it's killing me. It's killing me because I cannot fully enjoy my relationship with God, I cannot rest in Him, in His love and it gets in the way of our relationship. It's putting distance between me and Him. Because I can hardly love Him when I read stuff like that...

In the OT, God was a mysoginist (no right for women, men could marry as many women as they want but women were stoned if caught with another man), He was for; infanticide; abortion (killing the fruit in the womb); pedophilia, slavery and freedom from slavery for males only:

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36979

ABORTION:

Hosea 9:11-16 Hosea prays for God's intervention. "As for Ephraim, their glory shall fly away like a bird, from the birth, and from the womb, and from the conception. Though they bring up their children, yet will I bereave them, that there shall not be a man left: yea, woe also to them when I depart from them! Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, is planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer. Give them, O Lord: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts...Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb."

Isaiah 13:18 "They shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children."

Exodus 21:22 "If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. "

Numbers 5:11-21 The description of a bizarre, brutal and abusive ritual to be performed on a wife SUSPECTED of adultery. Considered to be an induced abortion to rid a woman of another man's child.

Where is the forgiveness when the phrase: "He shall surely be put to death" appears so many time in the OT?

Killing a man for gathering firewood on Sabbath day? Where is the forgiveness in this? There are much worse crimes, like rape and murder. But He condomned those things, didn't He?

Numbers 15:32-36 "Once, while the Israelites were still in the wilderness, a man was found gathering firewood on the Sabbath. He was taken to Moses, Aaron and the whole community, and was put under guard, because it was not clear what should be done with him. Then the Lord said to Moses, "The man must be put to death; the whole community is to stone him to death outside the camp." So the whole community took himoutside the camp and stoned him to death, as the Lord had commanded."

CHILD ABUSE:

Genesis 17:10-14 "...And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you..."

Genesis 22:9-10 "And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son."

Numbers 31:18 "[Moses orders his army] But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

I Kings 3:24,25 "And the king said, Bring me a sword. And they brought a sword before the king. And the king said, Divide the living child in two, and give half to the one, and half to the other."

2Kings 6:28,29 "And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son." 

CHILD MURDER, INFANTICIDE:

Exodus 4:22-23 "Then you must tell him that I, the Lord, say, 'Israel is my first born son. I told you to let my son go, so that he might worship me, but you refused. Now I am going to kill your first-born son.'"

Numbers 31:17 (Moses) "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him (in other words: women that might be pregnant)."

1Samuel 15:1-8 "Now listen to what the Lord Almighty says. He is going to punish the people of Amalek BECAUSE THEIR ANCESTORS opposed the Israelites... 3-8 : With 210000 soldiers they killed all the men, women, children, babies, cattle, camels and donkeys."

2Samuel 12:11-19 "Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee ... the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. ... And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. ... David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead."

2Kings 2:23-24 "Elisha left Jericho to go to Bethel and on the way some boys came out of a town and made fun of him. "Get out of here, Baldy!" they shouted. Elisha turned around, glared at them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys to pieces."

2Kings 6:28-29 "And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son."

Psalm 137:8-9 Prayer/song of vengeance "O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."

Hosea 13:16 "Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."

COPROPHILIA | SCAT, UROLAGNIA | WATERSPORTS:

2Kings 18:27 "But Rab-shakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?"

EXHIBITIONISM:

Isaiah 20:2-3 "At the same time spake the Lord by Isaiah the son of Amoz, saying, Go and loose the sackcloth from off thy loins, and put off thy shoe from thy foot. And he did so, walking naked and barefoot. And the Lord said, Like as my servant Isaiah hath walked naked and barefoot three years for a sign and wonder upon Egypt and Ethiopia; So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt."

2Samuel 16:22 "So they spread Absalom a tent upon the top of the house; and Absalom went in unto his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel."

2 Samuel 16:22 also count as rape...

He also commanded people to murder their families and friends. Where is the forgiveness in this? And more importantly, did they suffer beyond the grave? And HOW LONG? I will never obey Him in this. I will die before I kill anyone, especially my family...

FAMILY:

Exodus 32:27-28 "[Moses] he said to them, "The Lord God of Israel commands every one of you to put on his sword and go through the camp from this gate to the other and kill his brothers, his friends and his neighbours. The Levites obeyed and killed about 3000 Men that day.

Exodus 32:29 "Moses said to the Levites, "Today you have consecrated yourselves as priests in the service of the Lord by killing your sons and brothers, so the Lord has given you his blessing."

Leviticus 21:1-4 "No priest is to make himself ritually unclean by taking part in the funeral ceremonies when a relative dies unless it is his mother, father, son, daughter, brother or unmarried sister living in his house."

Luke 14:26 Jesus speaking, "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

Why not stick to the passage saying "He whloves them more them me is not worthy of me"? Why using the word "hate"?

Matthew 23:9 "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."

Our human fathers also are our fathers...

Matthew 10:34-36 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law (sic) against her mother in law(sic). And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."

Is that loving your children and those they love and care about to set them against each others? Is it to say that He is behind the deterioration of my relationship with my mother and my sister? Then how could He love me and my family?

FLAT-CHESTED WOMEN:

Solomon's Song 8:8 "We have a little sister, and she hath no breasts: what shall we do for our sister in the day when she shall be spoken for? If she be a wall, we will build upon her a palace of silver: and if she be a door, we will inclose her with boards of cedar."

GENOCIDE:

Exodus 32:27-28 "[Moses' orders to his army] he said to them, "The Lord God of Israel commands every one of you to put on his sword and go through the camp from this gate to the other and kill his brothers, his friends and his neighbours. The Levites obeyed and killed about 3000 Men that day."

Exodus 32:29 "Moses said to the Levites, "Today you have consecrated yourselves as priests in the service of the Lord by killing your sons and brothers, so the Lord has given you his blessing."

Numbers 31:17 (Moses) "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him (in other words: women that might be pregnant)."

Deuteronomy 7:1 "When Yahweh your god has settled you in the land you're about to occupy, and driven out many infidels before you...you're to cut them down and exterminate them. You're to make no compromise with them or show them any mercy."

Joshua 6:21-24 "With their swords they killed everyone in the city, men, women, young and old. They also killed the cattle, sheep and donkeys. ... And they burnt the city with fire, and all that was therein: only the silver, and the gold, and the vessels of brass and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the Lord."

Judges 20: A description of a battle, city-burning, no morals.

Judges 20:42-48 "... and them which came out of the cities they destroyed in the midst of them. ... And there fell of Benjamin eighteen thousand of the best Benjamine soldiers; ... and they gleaned of them in the highways five thousand men; ... and slew two thousand men of them. So that all which fell that day of Benjamin were twenty and five thousand men that drew the sword; ... And the men of Israel turned again upon the children of Benjamin, and smote them with the edge of the sword, as well the men of every city, as the beast, and all that came to hand: also they set on fire all the cities that they came to."

1Kings 20:30 "But the rest fled to Aphek, into the city; and there a wall fell upon twenty and seven thousand of the men that were left."

1Samuel 6:19 "The Lord killed seventy of the men of Beth Shemesh because they looked inside the Covenant Box."

1Samuel 15:1-8 "Now listen to what the Lord Almightysays. He is going to punish the people of Amalek BECAUSE THEIR ANCESTORS opposed the Israelites... 3-8 : With 210000 soldiers they killed all the men, women, children, babies, cattle, camels and donkeys."

Esther 9:12-16: The Jews slaughter enemies in an internal strife in the Persian empire, at least 75800 enemies are killed.

Hosea 13:16 "Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."

Revelations is full of genocides. Here are some.

Revelation 6:8 (the 4th seal) "I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

Revelation 9:15 (the 6th seal) "And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind."

Revelation 4th Seal and 6th Seal. Here'sa quick calculation assuming an initial population of 6 000 000 000:
1/4 are killed when the 4th seal is opened: 1/4 of 6.0 billion is 1.5 billion, leaving 4.5 billion survivors.
1/3 are killed then the 6th seal is opened: 1/3 of 4.5 billion is 1.5 billion, leaving 3.0 billion survivors.
Exactly half of Humankind are killed, and this calculation is only using TWO of the seven seals!

A homosexual was to be murdered, not brought to repentance:

Leviticus 20:13 "If a man has sexual relations with another man, they have done a disgusting thing, and both shall be put to death. They are responsible for their own death."

It is proven that homosexuals are either possessed or under demonic influence. Ask a deliverance pastor. Many are not even aware that they are possessed or under demonic influence. They just think they were born gay or are different from others. Many just wish they were normal...

HUMAN SACRIFICE:

Genesis 22:9,10 "And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son."

Isn't that supposed to be pagan barbary?

To be continued...

[Michelle]

Suite...

Those are just a few examples.

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/tb.html

Did the Lord really Condomn rape, pedophilia, murder, slavery, mysoginy, woman abuse and terrorism? I recently preached the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ to a young man over Youtube and refered him to the TM website. Do you know what he told me? He told me that He was an ex Christian Universalist. He told me, "Even if God doesn't plan to have 99% of all mankind tortured and roasted in hell for all eternity, He condomned so many horrors that I'm better off as an atheist." I felt kinda sorry for him. But when I read some of that stuff in the OT, It made me wonder. In some way, I understand the Fundies and my friend, Thomas. He's better at mental back-filling than I am. All this is seriously hindering my walk with Jesus. I have tasted His love, I walked in a state of pure perfect divine love for a few days, just like Gary and then, it wore off. I had to get that back. I would die if I didn't get that back. I've read two or three books to try and find out what to do. Some of those books, especially: "Love without end, Jesus speaks", by Glenda Green say that the distance and separation is only an impression, an illusion, but most of what Jesus said about how to remedy to that is a bunch of Babel gibberish that I can hardly understand. I recently had a dream or vision in which I felt threatened by Him and I was scared to death of losing Him, of being separated or rejected. But the OT is poisoning my spiritual life and my relationship with Him and as a result, I distance myself from Him, reject His love and grieve the Holy Spirit. I suffer and cause Him pain. I come to you for help because I don't know what to think and what to do anymore. Did God really condomn and ordered these things or is it mistranslations and Bible corruption? Is there any TM material that really explain the OT and answer those questions? There has to be an explanation for this. There has to be. Someone help me, Please...

:BangHead: :CryBaby: :crywipe:   

And can someone look into this?

"And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire. (From the NIV Bible, Leviticus 21:9)"

The KJV says the same thing. Didn't He condemn those who burned their children and said that such a thing never entered His mind? Mistranslation and Bible corruption again?

Edit march 9:

Deuteronomy 32: 22-26:

For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell (Sheol), and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them. They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust. The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, THE SUCKLING ALSO with the man of gray hairs. I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:

The lowest is on earth: http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html#100

Matt 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Since He murdered so many innocent babies, He should punish Himself in that way...

[Molly]

Hi Michelle,

You are asking a ton of questions here, and I understand what you're saying, and I can't answer all of them, but even if I could it would take a book to do it.  Maybe we could talk about the crux of what is bothering you and how you might deal with it?  Or try to break it down into smaller parts?

It sounds to me like 1) you are feeling a separation from God that is uncomfortable for you, and 2) there are things which you think God did in the OT that you do not approve.

Would that sum it up?

Regarding the separation piece of it--

You are not alone in that experience.  I think we all experience that--going through dry times, and calling out to him with no apparent answer, and so forth.  Given it seems to be a fact of life, the question is how do we deal with that?

First of all, because you have experienced his love, you are one of the rare people who know what it is.  That is a gift and a sealing and a promise.  So, first,  accept that for what it is and know that you are blessed.

In the last chapter of Revelation, we are told: 

20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

--Rev 22:20

That word for 'come' in that passage is erchomai which means to 'come and go' and 'appear.'   The word for 'quickly' means 'shortly' but it also means 'suddenly.'  For me, this is describing how Jesus relates to me in my life.  He comes and goes.  He appears suddenly.  It's always powerful when he does.  Yet, I also know that I am surrounded by a cloud of witnesses and that he is always there with me, even if I can't always perceive it.

I've been following the case of Amanda Knox, if you know who she is.  She is a young American [age 23] who has been thrown in jail in Italy for 26 years for a crime she didn't commit.  I know she is innocent because I have read the details of her case and I have some experience with these things.  Recently, some heavy weight American experts have been coming to her aid, including, scientists,  DNA experts, and a retired FBI agent.  She was raised Catholic, but in her writings she doesn't acknowledge God, leading me to believe she is either atheist or agnostic.  Yet, I see Him working mightily in her life on her behalf, and I know for sure that some day--she will know this too.  She knows it now on some level.  She could hate and curse God, and blame him for what has been done to her, but she doesn't.  She signs her letters with a line from an Italian song,

I know I am not alone even when I am alone.

That takes a lot of faith when you are a young girl thrown in prison 6000 miles from your home  for what looks like the best part of your life, for something you didn't do.

Isn't that what is required of all of us?  Even though I am not literally in jail like Amanda, my life  is not so different from hers.  I am in a prison of sorts, waiting for him as he 'comes and goes' in my life. God is seeing a bigger picture than we are and what looks like disaster or separation or abandonment to us, as we see over and over in the Bible, is really his way of achieving his purpose for us.  They mean it for evil, but he will use it for good.

I know now [because of my experience with it] that he will always  'return' suddenly, in some surprising and utterly shocking and delightful way, even when I cannot see or feel or hear him in the present--I know this and I know you will, too.  This is something that we learn over time. So, don't despair.  You know his heart. We have to live through it to learn it.  So I have learned to have patience,  to wait and stay faithful and serve him, even when I do not know he is there.  I have learned to trust.

I know that I am not alone even when I am alone.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus!

[Michelle]

"That takes a lot of faith when you are a young girl thrown in prison 6000 miles from your home  for what looks like the best part of your life, for something you didn't do. Isn't that what is required of all of us?"

Just like strength, we have no faith of our own. Our human faith is weak and insignificant. Only HIS extremely strong and infinite faith can sustain us. Faith is a gift from Jesus. It's not something humans can conjure up or really feed. We don't have that kind of faith, neither do we have the power to remedy to our lack or absence of faith. We are not enabler and we are not the Man-God. I'm talking from experience. even though I'm new at this whole Christian Universalism thing. I talk from experience because I have had a strong and intense "experience" and I now know that my human faith is just as insignificant and small as my own human strength. And Gary too is talking from experience:

"The above Scriptures are very positive statements the strength of which the planter of doubts wishes to weaken to rob us of our faith. There are just simply too many Scriptural proofs that make it plain that Jesus is Savior of the whole world, not just a piece of it for Satan to destroy the faith of those who truly DO have the faith OF Jesus. "Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith." (Heb. 12:2) If it is YOUR faith in Jesus on which you stand, the accuser surely has grounds on which to defeat you. If it is the faith OF Jesus from which the reader was born, then Satan may weaken your faith in the following Scriptures for a season, but eventually the Holy Spirit will draw you back onto solid ground…the faith OF Jesus, and away from your own faith which is but sinking sand."

http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/ForceOrFreeWill.html

If Jesus care so much about our faith, then why doesn't He give us His extremely strong and unlimited faith permanently considering that our human faith is weak and insignificant? If He doesn't, then He can't blame us because He alone is an enabler, Deity, sustainer, etc. And if Satan suceed in seriously weakening "someone's" faith, then God gave him permission to do so, for Satan cannot do anything God didn't allow him to do. God is sovereign and supreme. Satan cannot act out of God's will. The story of Job is a proof of that. And only the Lord can allow Satan to rob us from HIS own faith. If the Lord care so much about faith, then why allowing something to rob us from HIS faith? I don't have that kind of faith, neither do I have the power to remedy to my lack of it. I am not an enabler and I am not the Man-God. As long as I won't find explanations and answers for all those evils and horrors He condomned and ordered in the OT, I will be hindered in my walk with Him (especially taking it out on innocent little kids and babies when in the NT He says that "it would be better for people who harm kids and babies to cast a millstone around their necks and drown themselves than hurt any of these little ones." Contradictory much. You don't take it out on innocent very young children and defendless babies who don't even have sins because they are not accountable and cannot tell good from evil, you just don't. Such an individual in our society would be call a deranged person and an out-of-control fury at best and a sick, sadistic monster at worse. And what about punishing people for the crimes of their fathers or ancestors? As if it was their fault their fathers or ancestors did something stupid. And I thought He said a son wouldn't bear the iniquity of the father. Another contradiction. I need material on mistranslations in the OT, because that's what contradictions are all about. I'm starting to see a pattern...)   

What I need is material with explanations and answers pertaining to the OT. There has to be mistranslations and some Bible corruption in the OT too...

[thinktank]

Luke 14:26 Jesus speaking, "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

Why not stick to the passage saying "He whloves them more them me is not worthy of me"? Why using the word "hate"?


This passage also sometimes makes me angry at God, but so does most of the bible. It's just a matter of thinking things through. Some passages in the bible are easy enough for a child to understand and it's pleaseant to read, but then passages like this come along, which at first glance is infuriating, but if you take passages like these as a maths equation they do fit into the sum if you take other scriptures to balance it. I.e love him enough so that, in comparison love for your familly feels like hate, this fits the maths equation, where Jesus said to love one another, but if you take the scripture to mean hate as in "hate", then the maths equation no longer fits, because the other passage is in contradiction to this one.

[Taffy]

Luke 14:26 Jesus speaking, "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

Why not stick to the passage saying "He whloves them more them me is not worthy of me"? Why using the word "hate"?


This passage also sometimes makes me angry at God, but so does most of the bible. It's just a matter of thinking things through. Some passages in the bible are easy enough for a child to understand and it's pleaseant to read, but then passages like this come along, which at first glance is infuriating, but if you take passages like these as a maths equation they do fit into the sum if you take other scriptures to balance it. I.e love him enough so that, in comparison love for your familly feels like hate, this fits the maths equation, where Jesus said to love one another, but if you take the scripture to mean hate as in "hate", then the maths equation no longer fits, because the other passage is in contradiction to this one.

:icon_flower:

TT :icon_flower:

Christ was talking to HIS kinsmen - whos FAMILY were based in the Torah - NOT seeing The shadow who it LED too- again relates to the carnal mind being subject to the SPIRIT-  :icon_flower:

[jabcat]

based in the Torah - NOT seeing The shadow who it LED to

:thumbsup:  ...and that's the subject here, isn't it?

[Taffy]

based in the Torah - NOT seeing The shadow who it LED to

:thumbsup:  ...and that's the subject here, isn't it?

:icon_flower:
:thumbsup:
Hi james

Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Scripture dimentional - the carnal minded parents are ADAM[ Father] and EVE[ Mother] birthed of SIN, hence WE are to LEAVE our parents AND CLEAVE to OUR WIFE

[jabcat]

Yes!    And I was thinking about this topic earlier.  In the OT, God was dealing with His people Israel, in a barbaric time, with barbaric enemies.  It was all a literal shadow of the spiritual that was to come.  Those things in the OT are for our teaching, illustrating the Now - now, when (mostly) our battles are within ourselves, the battle of the flesh vs. the spirit that Christ is raising up within us, with the call to "come out", to be one with Him - and as you say, wed to our bridegroom.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ Molly......I haven't read about her, but what little I saw on TV, I felt Amanda Knox was innocent too......

[thinktank]

Luke 14:26 Jesus speaking, "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

Why not stick to the passage saying "He whloves them more them me is not worthy of me"? Why using the word "hate"?


This passage also sometimes makes me angry at God, but so does most of the bible. It's just a matter of thinking things through. Some passages in the bible are easy enough for a child to understand and it's pleaseant to read, but then passages like this come along, which at first glance is infuriating, but if you take passages like these as a maths equation they do fit into the sum if you take other scriptures to balance it. I.e love him enough so that, in comparison love for your familly feels like hate, this fits the maths equation, where Jesus said to love one another, but if you take the scripture to mean hate as in "hate", then the maths equation no longer fits, because the other passage is in contradiction to this one.

:icon_flower:

TT :icon_flower:

Christ was talking to HIS kinsmen - whos FAMILY were based in the Torah - NOT seeing The shadow who it LED too- again relates to the carnal mind being subject to the SPIRIT-  :icon_flower:

Yes I can see that view, but Jesus allways talked to his kinsmen, does that mean his messages don't apply to us?

That means when he says, "when you fast" That means only the Jews fast or perhaps a better example "when you pray, our father who art in heaven" since most christians pray, only few fast.

[Taffy]

apologies Michelle for taking this thread offf topic some 0  :icon_flower:

[Molly]

Just like strength, we have no faith of our own. Our human faith is weak and insignificant. Only HIS extremely strong and infinite faith can sustain us. Faith is a gift from Jesus. 

Exactly.  He has given her that faith.  She just doesn't know the source of it, yet.

It's not something humans can conjure up or really feed.

well, Paul gives us a whole list of things we can do.  Pray without ceasing, keep looking at Jesus, renew our minds daily by the washing of the word. Jesus says, Take heart and believe.  Have courage!  Sometimes we just have to remind ourselves who we are and who he is.  Sometimes we need to be encouraged by our friends.  So, yes, like any athlete preparing for a game, we can work out daily.

And if Satan succeed in seriously weakening "someone's" faith, then God gave him permission to do so, for Satan cannot do anything God didn't allow him to do.

I think of Satan, in relationship to myself, as an opposer  who causes me to build my faith as I come against him.  He is like a weight machine relative to your muscles.  As you work your muscles against the machine, the muscle breaks down and then rebuilds itself stronger.  In other words, we become stronger only as we need to be.

As long as I won't find explanations and answers for all those evils and horrors He condomned and ordered in the OT, I will be hindered in my walk with Him (especially taking it out on innocent little kids and babies

This is something you have to take up with him.  Ask him to show you.  Knock, seek, ask.  But I don't think this is going to come to you all at once.  There are people who spend a lifetime studying the Bible.  Therefore, have patience and trust the God you already know.

"it would be better for people who harm kids and babies to cast a millstone around their necks and drown themselves than hurt any of these little ones."

Yes. He is telling us how he feels about the children.   Do you really think Solomon meant to cut the baby in half?  He meant to determine who the real mother was, and without DNA, the only way he could do that was to look for which woman had the real love for the child.  She was the one who said, 'don't kill the child, give him to her.'

Likewise, I don't believe God ever meant to take Abraham's son for a sacrifice, yet, we see by this story how much Abraham loved and trusted God, and we also see the precursor of the cross, so that we can understand how much God loves [and trusts] us.  Abraham is saved from giving his son as sacrifice, but God isn't.

I am a very literal thinker, but both of those stories could be explained by others here in a more spiritual way.  I picked simple examples, but these things are deep and take time to work out.  We have whole threads on these topics.  Again, my advice is to bite off little pieces and chew them.

Another contradiction. I need material on mistranslations in the OT, because that's what contradictions are all about. I'm starting to see a pattern...)   

What I need is material with explanations and answers pertaining to the OT. There has to be mistranslations and some Bible corruption in the OT too...

I don't believe in contradictions.  If I see what looks like a contradiction, it means I am not understanding something.  Nor do I require myself to understand everything.

I do read many different translations, because some are easier to understand than others.   But, in general, that is not to mean that I think big chunks of the Bible are mistranslated.  I don't.  I think if you take one thing at a time and ask what does this one thing mean, it will be easier to deal with than taking on the whole thing at once.  But, again it takes time and patience.

[Michelle]

Luke 14:26 Jesus speaking, "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

Why not stick to the passage saying "He whloves them more them me is not worthy of me"? Why using the word "hate"?


This passage also sometimes makes me angry at God, but so does most of the bible. It's just a matter of thinking things through. Some passages in the bible are easy enough for a child to understand and it's pleaseant to read, but then passages like this come along, which at first glance is infuriating, but if you take passages like these as a maths equation they do fit into the sum if you take other scriptures to balance it. I.e love him enough so that, in comparison love for your familly feels like hate, this fits the maths equation, where Jesus said to love one another, but if you take the scripture to mean hate as in "hate", then the maths equation no longer fits, because the other passage is in contradiction to this one.

He had small children and babies killed and pregnant women ripped apart. Give me a good reason why I should trust Him with my mother and sister? And give me a good reason why I should keep loving Him more than them if He ever do something horrible to them? I could never tolerate anyone hurting them, not even God. If something horrible happens to my mother and sister that I love so much, then I will never be able to love Him ever again, unless He forces me to...

[Michelle]

Luke 14:26 Jesus speaking, "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

Why not stick to the passage saying "He whloves them more them me is not worthy of me"? Why using the word "hate"?


This passage also sometimes makes me angry at God, but so does most of the bible. It's just a matter of thinking things through. Some passages in the bible are easy enough for a child to understand and it's pleaseant to read, but then passages like this come along, which at first glance is infuriating, but if you take passages like these as a maths equation they do fit into the sum if you take other scriptures to balance it. I.e love him enough so that, in comparison love for your familly feels like hate, this fits the maths equation, where Jesus said to love one another, but if you take the scripture to mean hate as in "hate", then the maths equation no longer fits, because the other passage is in contradiction to this one.

:icon_flower:

TT :icon_flower:

Christ was talking to HIS kinsmen - whos FAMILY were based in the Torah - NOT seeing The shadow who it LED too- again relates to the carnal mind being subject to the SPIRIT-  :icon_flower:

O_o What are you talking about???

[Michelle]

based in the Torah - NOT seeing The shadow who it LED to

:thumbsup:  ...and that's the subject here, isn't it?

:icon_flower:
:thumbsup:
Hi james

Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Scripture dimentional - the carnal minded parents are ADAM[ Father] and EVE[ Mother] birthed of SIN, hence WE are to LEAVE our parents AND CLEAVE to OUR WIFE

The whole bride/wife thing is only a metaphore, an analogy. It has nothing to do with the marriage between a man and a woman. The "marriage" will be some kind of special very strong spiritual relationship between Him and His human children. No one will actually "marry" their own Father. Besides, that would be sick, unnatural and disgusting. People don't marry their dads. Some people take some passages of scriptures way too literally. And some people are really getting on my nerves with the "Jesus is my boyfriend" songs. This is just wrong. Just like those people who say they are "in love" with their heavenly Father. People should love their Father, not be "in love" with their Father...

:eeew:

[Michelle]

Yes!    And I was thinking about this topic earlier.  In the OT, God was dealing with His people Israel, in a barbaric time, with barbaric enemies.  It was all a literal shadow of the spiritual that was to come.  Those things in the OT are for our teaching, illustrating the Now - now, when (mostly) our battles are within ourselves, the battle of the flesh vs. the spirit that Christ is raising up within us, with the call to "come out", to be one with Him - and as you say, wed to our bridegroom.

Is that supposed to make all right the murdering of small children, the smashing the heads of babies against rocks and ripping pregnant women apart? I don't call pregnant women, children and babies "barbaric enemies". And I really don't see how such horrors could be for our teaching. Instead of defending Him at all cost, people, you could provide me with articles or material about mistranslations, misinterpretations and Bible corruption pertaining to the O.T. I haven't find any yet.

And it's not an actual "wedding" and our heavenly Father is not our actual "bridegroom". It's a stronger kind of spiritual relationship between Him and His human children...

:eeew:

I suggest you study these things for yourself.

Christ is pictured as the "bridegroom", but the wedding is not an actual wedding. It is the actual day when Christ is united with all those who have been washed clean.

Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage: but are as the angels which are in heaven.

[Michelle]

apologies Michelle for taking this thread offf topic some 0  :icon_flower:

You aren't. Please, enlighten me. And if you know of any material about serious mistranslations pertaining to the O.T, please send it to me. This is just wrong. He couldn't have had innocent children and babies murdered and pregnant women ripped apart. If the Church and the Jerome conspiracy are behind the E.T doctrine and there is Bible corruption in the N.T, then it must be the same thing about the O.T. And if you take some of the O.T passages and some of the N.T passage, you see that they contradict each others. Like Jesus saying that would be better for a man to get drowned than hurt a child or a baby, when the Lord in the O.T supposedly took it out on innocent little ones. If anyone find any kind of material, please send it to me. ESPECIALLY material written by Christian Universalists. But it's not like the Damnationists would ever search these things for themselves. All they ever do is accept anything they hear from the church or read in some english translation of the Bible and pretend that it doesn't prevent them from sleeping well at night. Well, yeah, I just had another fight with my Damnationist friend. He said that Christian Universalism was nothing but propaganda and false teachings, that the english translation (namely the KJV) was the "innerant" Word of God and he said I was listening to the antichrist posing as Jesus. Nice. "The" antichrist, just like Adam and Eve and those who crucified Christ represent the whole of mankind. The antichrist is the carnal mind in all of us that is enmity with God. Those who are still unsaved or saved but walking in the flesh are antichrist aka carnal-minded. That was a revelation to me from the Holy Spirit. I tried to tell him that but he won't listen. I also told him that I have known true love, peace, joy and happiness in the last few weeks and manifested more fruit of the Spirit ever since I have received the revelation of truth about UR from Jesus. But according to my Damnationist friend, I'm being deceived by Satan. And he's just so full of pride and self-righteouness. He's just so proud of "HIS decision to follow Jesus", of "HIS choice to be saved". He puts me under his feet and look down upon me...

http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew6/D6-PrideAndSelfRighteousness.html

"A self-righteous religious person is self-justified. Their salvation is really dependent upon "their" works. They may mouth "saved by grace through faith," but they are empty words. A self-righteous person will always have people they can look down upon. After all, some people work harder for the Lord than others. While they may not voice it openly, those deemed to be outside the "saved" camp become secretly despised. Since God is going to deal with them in very cruel ways, the self-righteous person feels justified in copying their God of wrath. This self-righteousness then becomes a mountain of people under their feet, so to speak, a mass of people to look down upon as despised, forsaken, despicable. This mass of people can be compose of other denominations, people with other doctrines and creeds, entire nations, various personal preferences, or a host of other reasons to place these people in the "not saved" or "unjustified" camp."

That's exactly what he does. I'm afraid that soon, he's going to discard me as if I was nothing, like our friendship was nothing. And as always, it's going to hurt like hell and since I'm struggling with so many things, including the O.T, Jesus will probably have to put the pieces back together by force this time. I am so sick of losing friends and being rejected. People say they are your friends, but the second you have different beliefs, views or opinions, even based on historical and scriptural facts, they dump you. If you have any kind of difference at all, they walk away from you. They say they are your friends, but they only are there for better, not for worst. I sure hope Christian Universalists are different...

[Michelle]

"As long as I won't find explanations and answers for all those evils and horrors He condomned and ordered in the OT, I will be hindered in my walk with Him (especially taking it out on innocent little kids and babies."

"This is something you have to take up with him.  Ask him to show you.  Knock, seek, ask.  But I don't think this is going to come to you all at once.  There are people who spend a lifetime studying the Bible.  Therefore, have patience and trust the God you already know."

:sorry: :crywipe::surrender: :Pray: :bowing:

(http://lorimoon.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/jesus_hugging_woman.jpg)
(Artist: presently unknown)

[Taffy]

 :icon_flower:
Michelle
have you ever heard of the acronym PARDES?

HERES A HELPFUL LINK-which may explain why theres more behind the original Text- Ie scrpture being dimentional
http://members.cox.net/8thday/4levels.html

[Taffy]

You aren't. Please, enlighten me. And if you know of any material about serious mistranslations pertaining to the O.T, please send it to me. This is just wrong. He couldn't have had innocent children and babies murdered and pregnant women ripped apart.

whats written in the OT,for me, that which comes first is the [NATURAL]  conceals, being LATER REVEALED in the NT [ Spiritual]- the old is full of types , shadows and patterns as with the Tabernacle\Temple or The Holy Days[ Lev 23] .

The pattern layed out in the garden continues throughout the scrptures , but its hidden from the carnal EYE- we are SPIRIT, SOUL AND BODYand its this pattern which continues .

you may ask "what on earth has this to do with Children women slaughtered etc" - heres one dimension

if you take the forerunner OC= Old jerusalem as a Type, of NC.- as Christ is the head\Husband SPIRIT , wife \Soul[ Levites] and Body \Children =Israel

Husband wife and Children = spirit soul and Body  are those used by the LORD to usher in the reality in the new CHRIST- The law being a  TRUE doctrine and to be kept\preserved.

so for mine I relate Husband wife and offspring  as  ONE Doctrine- when Israel KEPT the law and were faithful they were blessed, failing to do so they were Cursed , ANYTHING LESS then THE true DOCTRINE IS fALSE DOCTRINE - which is Likened to LIFE and DEATH-

WHEN WE SEE THE lord SLAUGHTER man women and child ,they are false Doctrines which need to be destroyed just as DEATH itself does- false = LIARS-
hence we see the False prohetess and HER children[ Children are those who perpetuate either False or TRUE doctrines,] which in this case are False

Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

seems all rather harsh but DEATH has to DIE for ONE TO LIVE- :icon_flower:
Best way Im given to explain it - :icon_flower:

[redhotmagma]

Michelle, as to your friend saying the KJV is the inerrent word of God, ask him which version?  You probably won't get anywhere because KJV-only types are highly indoctrinated.  I've had a lot of experience with them, and you want to talk about a cult mentality, yikes.  But if you do want some ammo theres plenty out there.  One is that it has been revised multiple times.  Thus the question which version is inerrant.  Really it gets down to manuscripts.  I believe the translator of the KJV only had a couple, which have been shown to be quite wrong with all the manuscript evidence we have now, like from the dead sea scrolls. 

How is it inerrant if it has to be revised???  If he's a 1611 KJV only guy then good luck :)

[Taffy]

You aren't. Please, enlighten me. And if you know of any material about serious mistranslations pertaining to the O.T, please send it to me

There are mistranslations. the greatest being HELL and eternal - along with many minor ones by comparrison-

Blessings :icon_flower:

[Molly]

:icon_flower:
Michelle
have you ever heard of the acronym PARDES?

HERES A HELPFUL LINK-which may explain why theres more behind the original Text- Ie scrpture being dimentional
http://members.cox.net/8thday/4levels.html

That looks like a very cool site.

But I notice that Jews say you can't go into the heights until the age of 40.  :winkgrin:

[Taffy]

But I notice that Jews say you can't go into the heights until the age of 40.

:icon_flower: :happygrin: