Faith and Works

[Patinak]

Hello All,
I've been following this thread.  A lot of interesting views, I appreciate everyone's thoughts.  I felt compelled to chime in, not just to give an opinion, but when I write, it helps me to gel my own thoughts.  This subject has always been a hard one for me to reconcile.

When I hear "faith without works" my mind automatically defines works as 'efforts', and I go into defense mode, not because I'm afraid of work, but because I know my own 'efforts' are not worthy of the faith.  If in my own effort I do a good deed, the flesh gets the glory, and the deed is it's own reward.  If I look back at a situation I might be involved in that ended as a 'good work', I can say "that was a good work that God did, and he used me to carry it out."  And it builds my faith to see Him work through me.  If I could re-write James 2:18 it would say: 'Show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my His works.'  I think we all know good works from evil works and that we should do good works, but there something special about his good works done through us. 

Or we could ask Him - oh yeah somebody did - (John 6:28,29 NIV) 'Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires? "Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."'

And by the way I do believe that there are some writings specifically for the Jews, and Paul's writings carry more weight for me as a non-Jew.  For me, this is part of the "rightly dividing".  When the author of James addresses the twelve tribes, I think he is addressing the Jews, specifically,at that point in time. When Jesus said  'I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.' (Matt. 15:24 YLT) it is telling me that there were things he had specifically to relate to those Jews at that time. Some things were just for the Jews (i.e, 'And the chief priests and the Pharisees having heard his similes, knew that of them he speaketh,' (Matt. 21:45 YLT)- doesn't apply to me.)  The New Covenant must have been a very difficult change for the Jews and I'm sure they needed special attention.

This is my thought on this date, and can, and probably will change, after all, in the words of Red Green in The Man's Prayer:
"I'M A MAN, AND I CAN CHANGE, IF I HAVE TO, I GUESS"

God Bless all of you!
Pat

Sorry EW, you had a good conclusion to this whole thread, but since I already wrote this I thought I'd post it anyway.  Pat

[Seth]

One thing about claiming authorship of works that I recall, going along with what you said about James' phrasing (his works vs my works)

1Cor 15
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them--yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.

I think given what James said about being birthed by the inward word by the will of God, I think James was aware of the presence of God in his works. I also think about what Paul said about faith working in love.

1 Cor 13
2and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

I think right there Paul draws a clear enough distinction between faith and charity seeing that a man who has strong faith but no love "is nothing." I don't see much of a substantial difference between that and "faith without works is dead."

One of the reasons the idea of works is scary is because it's often connected with salvation from hell. But since Paul, in Titus 3, is speaking about salvation from disobedience itself (by the Spirit not works of the Law), the idea of works and salvation is just common sense to me, in that light, and thus a natural component.

To be saved from disobedience means to be made obedient ( i.e. both faith and works compliant). I think that is James' point and Paul's point in many of his scriptures. And in that context, James' statements seem common sense to me for either Jewish or Gentile believers.

[eaglesway]

I think James was warning against a deception that is common in Christendum. Just because we are focused on theological points doesnt mean James was. I dont think he was saying anything at all about how you "get saved".

"Woe unto you rich, the blood of the laborers whose wages you stole are crying out against you from the ground and will eat your flesh like a fire on the day." "Cleanse your hearts you adulterers and adulterers, cleanse your hands you sinners.".....

Jesus warned of the same deception, "Lord, Lord, didnt we do mighty works in your name?.....depart from me you lawless ones into the fire prepared for the devil and His angels, for I was thirsty and you gave me no drink."

"Because you are lukewarm and neither cold or hot, I will spit you out of my mouth." Is that a theological statement?, Why would anyone want to find out lol. Better to heat up in the pursuit of the Lord :o)

Faith without works is dead, simple observation, like, you will know them by their fruits. I don't think he was making a theological point at all. I think he was doing the work of a shepherd whose sheep were wandering too close to the woods, so he made some noise to warn them, "There's danger in them woods! :)

[Seth]

I agree, while I do think James was talking about salvation, I think he was thinking about it practically, as you said, warning them not to return to the elements of the world that previously ensnared them.  :thumbsup:

[Seth]

For me, faith and love are not the same, as Paul demonstrates. Faith leads to love, but Love is the most important thing, according to him. If we are talking about salvation from sin, I don't see how that can be accomplished without love, since absence of love is the Biblical definition of sin. In that respect, I don't think of salvation as necessarily a theological concept, but a practical one.  :dontknow:

[jabcat]

We know this discussion has been going on a few thousand years, right?  :)  More "recently", think Luther vs. the Roman church :o

I think James was warning against a deception that is common in Christendum.  I dont think he was saying anything at all about how you "get saved".


Faith without works is dead, simple observation, like, you will know them by their fruits.

Yes!

I think that makes a lot of sense, and helps reconcile some things, since we're saved not by works but by grace through faith and that not of ourselves.  I was playing around with that idea some time back, i.e., James says 'faith' not 'salvation' (belief and confession on Jesus as Savior).  So I may be a believer, having spiritually passed from death unto life only through His free gift (Q - "when is a free gift no longer free?"  A - "when I have to work for it" :)     But if I'm not walking in surrender and obedience to Him and Him working through me works of love (living worthy of the high calling) then what good is it going to do you?   We are to be salt and light.  If I don't have good fruit, if I don't love my neighbor etc., then it's "dead" to you and those around me.   :2c:  That make any sense to anyone besides me? 
---
(in researching this a little further, i see that another variation of James and Paul is that James was talking about a "head knowledge" (agreeing who Jesus is as the devils do, but yet not really having been drawn by the Spirit and believing on Jesus as Savior through His work on the cross [a surface or "false" faith, i.e., an observation or acquiesence]);  while Paul was talking about the true free gift of saving faith, trust in the Lord Jesus as Savior, totally and wholly leaning on Him rather than trusting in ourselves, our intellect, or any works we might do - the kind of faith that truly saves, cleanses, restores, renews, passes us from death to life and makes a real difference in us and affects those around us. 

Further, that James and Paul were actually standing back-to-back defending the faith, but against 2 different types of error.  One [James] against shallow, simply intellectual faith (observing that something's true, but without the life-changing spirit-renewing trust in it), the other [Paul] defending against believing we can earn our salvation by our own works or effort rather than trusting Christ and His shed blood on the cross.)

I personally lean toward the top portion of this post, but somewhere within various parts of the above verbiage, maybe a mixture, I personally believe lies some things to earnestly consider.  For me, with the bottom line being, we're saved by grace through faith not of ourselves, not by works lest any man should boast.  And that when someone is truly drawn by the Spirit and changed from the inside out, and are in surrender and closeness to Him, it's going to be a free gift of salvation for sure, but one that produces results - only as a result of and through the power of the Holy Spirit working within the saved believer.

[eaglesway]

As Paul said, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is anything, but "faith working through love". I think when we use terms like faith, grace, hope, wisdom,etc we are looking at the "white light" through the prism and viewing the different colors of which it is made. For me the light is love, and grace, faith etc are all aspects of how God, who is love, manifests within His creation.

The only reason I disagree somewhat about whether James was talking about salvation is this. These people were all already saved. This was not an evangelistic epistle to unbelievers, it was a letter of reproof to a wayward church in need of correction- this is apparent(to me anyway :o) throughout the epistle. I liken it to Jesus words to Laodicea or Thyatira in Revelations.

As James(our James :o) said, and I agree, Paul was dealing with another problem in much of his writing, and of course he wrote so much more. Personally I have no tolerance (spiritually or intellectually) for anyone who tries to put Paul and James at odds, as if Paul taught grace and James taught works lol- I just dont get it.

Also notice Paul's context, when he spoke in Ephesians 2

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


Amazing how people squeeze that little saying right out of what Paul was teaching.

In this passage of scripture Paul is not dealing with any problem. The Ephesians did not have any problem, at least at that time. They were an orderly, fruitful;, overcoming comgregation, as were the Colossians and the Phillipians. Paul had not a word of reproof for of them, unlike the Galatians and the Corinthians, for whom Paul delivered much reproof and rebuke along with his instruction. In Ephesians 2 Paul is still continuing his explanation of "the mystery" of the anakepholaiomai(gathering all things into one). He is only a few sentences removed from chapter one, and of course there were no chapters, this is just a continuous letter in which he is STILL SPEAKING OF THE AGES TO COME!  :banana:

In the immediatley preceeding verse to this other verse that everyone is building their whole house on Paul is still talking about universal reconciliation. He is explaining, in the context, just like he does in Colossians , that we were once enemies too, and don't forget you were just as helpless as those unto whom we have been sent, and don't forget WHY you were saved and WHY you are his workmanship- TO DO GOOD WORKS LOL.

See I think James and Paul were saying EXACTLY THE SAME THING, but Paul was speaking to obedient believers bearing 100 fold fruit and James was talking to believers on the precipice(and over it)  holding their faith IN VANITY. He was calling them back to being God's workmanship in Christ, CREATED FOR GOOD WORKS.

So we are not saved BY GOOD WORKS, but we are saved FOR GOOD WORKS LOL. If there are no works accompanying our faith, it is IN VAIN, FUTILE, etc- it doesnt mean we weren't saved, it means the coals have grown cold, we have become lukewarm, we are in danger of what Jesus taught in John 15 about those who do not abide in the vine and dry up and are cut-off and cast into the fire.

Paul was speaking of salvation, in Eph 2:8, in the PAST TENSE, reminding the saints that they came in from the same darkness IN THE BEGINNING and are no better than anyone else so keep the fire burning and be what they were re-created in Christ to be.... WORKERS :o)

When James speaks he is, imo, saying the same thing that Paul said to the Corinthians in 1 Cor 3 about the wood hay and stubble, and the fire that will consume the reward of those who have mixed motives and are building garbage on top of the Chief cornerstone.

I think it is reasonable to say that we are not saved as a result of good works, but we are saved for the purpose of good works, so, as James and Jesus and Paul all taught, our works testify to our salvation as a new creation - so if there are no such works, or there are evil works in the place of them, such as putting wealthy men and women in the front of the church on the platform and putting poor people on the metaphorical backrow- then there is a problem that needs to be REBUKED, which is why I say James was not talking about how you get saved at all, he was rebuking believers who were in an advanced and dangerous stage of hypocrisy.

Man I do run on sometimes LOLOL

[jabcat]

 :thumbsup:

[Seth]

Hi John,
Great post. Yes, saved FOR good works.  :thumbsup:

See, I believe in a two part salvation process, an inward salvation, and an outward salvation. I think James covers both in the book of James. In the first chapter he talks about being born again (by our own works?) by the will of God. I think that's the inward salvation that Paul speaks about in Ephesians when he says "you have been joined together with Christ (by grace ye have been saved.") And in Titus 3, when he says "God saved you not because of your works but by the rebirth and regeneration of the Holy Spirit."

Being joined together with Christ is a faith alone proposition. "Believe Jesus for the remission of sins past and receive the spirit. Save yourselves from this wicked generation." (paraphrased from Peter in Acts 2). And yet, Paul also said, "now that we have received the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit." So, while in James 1 it's talking about the inward salvation, in James 2, I think he is talking about the outward salvation when he says "what good is it brothers if a man has faith but no works, can that faith save him?"

I think James is talking about how the inner salvation ought to translate into the outer world (i.e. let's not just talk about love, let's show it with our actions.) Have you ever heard someone's testimony and they say something like "God delivered me from the life I was living in drugs and sin." Or, "I was once on the street pimping and God came and forgave my sin and delivered me."

How did God deliver us? He inspired us to turn away from those former things, which is a work in itself. They are proving James right by saying those things in that their faith translated into ACTION and their actions (which they credit to God) delivered them from their former lives. Everyone's testimony about deliverance implies a faith+works salvation for the outer man, the outward manifestation of the inward salvation.

I believe works can save in the sense of "opportunity cost." Say you have two choices tonight, work overtime or play with your kids. If you choose one, you cannot choose the other simultaneously. We can choose works like walking away from pornography, and that work saves us from being slave to it. The work is inspired and empowered by God, but it nevertheless saves one from being undelivered.

I think that is why James uses the example of Rahab, the Gentile woman. If the Jewish spies (who I believe represent the remnant elect of Jews like Paul, Peter, John spreading the Gospel of salvation from sin) had come to Rahab's door and she said "Yes, I believe in your God. BYE!" Then SLAMMED the door in their faces....would she have been saved from the fall of Jericho? I think not. She was saved because she not only believed God but she gave the spies quarter, and then she placed the red cord outside her window. She believed and obeyed, and thus she was saved.

[dajomaco]

We can be saved from a bad relationship with God.
Saved from the relationship that Adam had a relationship of separation.

We can have a clear conscience before God the day or moment we believe in Christ.

To keep a clear conscience before God we have a combination of faith and works.
The more faith we have the more works there will be.

But it is Faith that gets us unstuck and back on the road.(the way)
We are saved to have a clear conscience .
With a clear conscience we are able to love freely ,to call God father and to rest in him.

And I have a hope in God, which these men themselves also accept, that there is going to be a resurrection,[a] both of the righteous and the unrighteous.  16 I always do my best to have a clear conscience toward God and men.  17 After many years, I came to bring charitable gifts and offerings to my nation,

For this is our confidence: The testimony of our conscience is that we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially toward you, with God-given sincerity and purity, not by fleshly wisdom but by God's grace.  13 Now we are writing nothing to you other than what you can read and also understand. I hope you will understand completely—

Now the goal of our instruction is love that comes from a pure heart, a good conscience, and a sincere faith.  6 Some have deviated from these and turned aside to fruitless discussion. [/size]

[Seth]

 :iagree:

[eaglesway]

Me too! :o)

[Seth]

"love that comes from a pure heart, a good conscience, and a sincere faith"

If the Apostles had a softball team, they'd have put that on their t-shirts.

[eaglesway]

Today, at first base we have Pure Heart, with Good Conscience at second base and Sincere Faith at third.  Steadfast Love is at short stop, and in the outfield, we have Sure Hope, Renewed Mind and Hidden Wisdom. Winding up with the pitch is Good News and behind the plate, Hearing Ear at catcher. Here at Zion Hill Stadium we are playing to a full house, a great cloud of witnesses cheers as Endless Grace steps up to the plate.

Here's the wind up, there's the pitch.......

"BOOM"

LOOK AT THAT FOLKS, ANOTHER HOME RUN BY ENDLESS GRACE!!!!

[Seth]

 :laughing7:

[dajomaco]

I could hope to be a bat boy on such a team.

[eaglesway]

Would be an honor, right? :0)

[Seth]

Lol, I just realized nobody would want to be first to bat! "No, you go first, brother." "No, you first, I insist."

The Centurian pitcher would say, "well one of you better go first!"

[eaglesway]

And Both teams would be play their hardest, yet the runs would be a source of rejoicing no matter which side had the highest score :o)