Science fiction or God?

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Hi WillieH!
First off, I want to say that I like you and your style of posting! I think you're the only one on this forum with so many colors and smileys and stuff, and I like it. It's just that if a post is very long I tend to skip through it, sometimes because I don't have time to read it all..  (I remember Mickel told me I had a "lazy eye.."  BTW, what ever happened to Mickel?? I miss him!  :bsad: )

I didn't know that you had served in Vietnam, nor that you have 10 grandkids! I certainly don't criticize or envy you-- who am I to judge you?? (After all, we each have our own plate to eat from!)
(I sure don't mind chatting about Vietnam, if you want to..: brian@ahigherway.net )

You wrote many things, all of which reflect how you teach/read/see the scriptures. And I'm interested in hearing your perspective. I think I even agree with you on many points.

When I started this thread my thoughts were on the POWER of God which has truly no limits, and His reasons for what He does which we cannot know. It seems that, when we say that "we know," it is then that we do not know. A paradox, I know..  If we say that we see, then we are blind. But there is truth in it.

I've studied a lot of different doctrines since I was born again/saved/regenerated/converted back in 1990. At least for me, I've studied a lot of viewpoints, all which seem plausible in their own way. Even UR, while to me quite believable, still doesn't mean that I couldn't believe in a place called hell. After all, God is God, man is man. What He decides to do, when to do it, how to do it, through whom to do it, I cannot say. It's HIS work, not mine. I cannot understand anything except that we can trust in Him and in His mercy, because He is faithful. "Even though He slay me, yet will I serve Him."

This post is too long..
In the end, again, I think that love is the only thing that will matter. I have seen that people believe what we do more than what we say. Either we did, or we didn't. That doesn't mean that I ignore doctrine. Love IS my doctrine!

Doctrines are the cart, not the horse. We are all learning, but loving is the most crucial.

Blessings to you!
Brian

[Seth]

That doesn't mean that I ignore doctrine. Love IS my doctrine!

Doctrines are the cart, not the horse. We are all learning, but loving is the most crucial.

Blessings to you!
Brian

Hi Brian,
Just to preface, I came back to the top of the post because I went long without meaning to.

So maybe the question isn't about doctrine VERSUS love, or distinguishable from it, or even beneath it, rather a difference between good doctrine and bad doctrine. The way I see it is that GOOD (holy) doctrine is not distinguishable from love in a way to where we would even need to qualified as being secondary to love.

Doctrine (even as it comes from the original Greek) simply means "teaching." So whatever you teach, or believe yourself, is doctrine. I think that word has become a dry theological word which is often thought of as being an intellectual's issue and not much intended for the compassionate heart: as if compassion comes first, then the the theology stuff. I got that kind of thing at my old church, where people didn't want to "discuss doctrine" because it seemed to them so left brained, dry, and to them void of Spirit.

However, if anyone believes ANYTHING regarding the scriptures, it is doctrine, and therefore if love is the "teaching" then love IS the doctrine (along with other very important things) none of which necessarily take a back seat to love, because "the teaching" of Christ is ALL ABOUT love.

But the problem with the "love first, doctrine second" thing is if one takes that as a way of saying the explicit teachings concerning the subjects the NT writers teach on, don't really matter as long as we all have a fuzzy feeling of love for eachother.

Galatians 1
8 But if ever we also, or a messenger out of heaven, should be bringing an evangel to you beside that which we bring to you, let him be anathema!
9 As we have declared before and at present I am saying again, if anyone is bringing you an evangel beside that which you accepted, let him be anathema!

Now, now if you read the whole of Galatians, Paul's main issue with them was with the fact that some people who believed in Christ, were teaching that physical circumcision, was not only part of the Gospel, but necessary to it, to make Christ of affect to them. That was their teaching, their doctrine. And, to make matters worse, they were spreading that teaching around and bringing people back into slavery to that which had no saving or life giving power.

Now Paul's stance on that COULD have been: "oh well, as long as we love eachother doctrine isn't a primary concern so who cares if people BELIEVE that works of the law concerning physical circumcision, and therefore do it to themselves and teach others to it in order to please Christ. Doctrine's like that, after all, are not as important as whether we love eachother."

That was not his stance though, obviously. I think that is because he knew that FALSE doctrine does not propagate love as TRUE doctrine does.

So, what is true doctrine, right? That's the issue. Paul was taught by God, and he VERBALLY was able to go to each gathering BEFORE he sent his letters and speak plainly to them and outline the teaching, and answer questions if need be, and his letters were meant to bolster the work he already did. We have these letters. We can't talk to the original authors, at least not yet. So we discuss it with eachother, and each person has what they believe. And for those in UR, it's like finding a treasure yet needing to decipher what is truly being said, rather than just trusting what we were taught in church. That's a trying road and one we are each on. All this is, of course, according to the providence of a sovereign God. And I think THAT is the point, and is WHY God has done things this way, so that we will have compassion with eachother as we ALL strive to know the good and true teaching of the Scripture.

These are just some thoughts, and sorry if the post was long.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen Seth........ :thumbsup:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Italy... :hithere:

:cloud9: Amen Seth........ :thumbsup:

I 2nd that sis...  :cloud9: Amen Seth!  :thumbsup:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

Thanks guys.  :HeartThrob:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Brian... :hithere:

Thanks for your answer...  :cloud9:

I've studied a lot of different doctrines since I was born again/saved/regenerated/converted back in 1990. At least for me, I've studied a lot of viewpoints, all which seem plausible in their own way. Even UR, while to me quite believable, still doesn't mean that I couldn't believe in a place called hell.

Glad you brought this up... UR as opposed to "HELL"

FIRST -- The WORD itself instructs us to come REASON with God, which infers that He has given us the ability to "REASON" -- Isaiah 1:18 -- So to begin with, what REASON is found in GOD "eternally" punishing most of the WORLD "He so LOVED", and proceeded to give His SON, as a sacrifce to redeem it?

SECOND -- If CHRIST was sent to redeem the WORLD "God so LOVED", and He in fact does NOT redeem it... then it raises these questions (although there are many more) -- (1) How can He be called the Savior of it? -- 1 John 4:14 (2) How can VICTORY be asserted of His mission? (3) How can it be said that He "pleased" the Father?

THIRD -- Is "Hell" really an issue that is actually "in the WORD"?  Or is it an invention of the church?  For the doctrine itself is derived from mistranslation of 1 Hebrew and 3 Greek terms...  :dontknow:  If as Seth suggests, we take the WORDS God has given us, and search them, not just taking what "Pastor Joe" said on sunday... and seek for ourselves before God, the meanings in His WORD... then we place ourselves in position to be worthy of Him, answering our questions... However, if we make no effort of our own, God is more than REASONABLE to let us have the results of our own laziness toward Him...  Which is WHY there is so much confusion in Christianity and WHY it preaches the OPPOSITE of LOVE [hell] and the OPPOSITE of SUCCESS in CHRIST's mission.

After all, God is God, man is man. What He decides to do, when to do it, how to do it, through whom to do it, I cannot say. It's HIS work, not mine. I cannot understand anything except that we can trust in Him and in His mercy, because He is faithful. "Even though He slay me, yet will I serve Him."

Not exactly sure where you are in age... but in time... a search reveals things.

I have taught my daughter something that has changed her perspective about her own search... She, at first thought I was NUTS when I disclosed my belief in the Salvation of ALL... and so I asked her these questions:

(1)  When you were 10yrs old, and you believed in JESUS... did you know as much about God at 10, as when you were 15?

(2)  When you were 15 and in your youth group and believing in JESUS... did you know as much about God at 15, as when you later became, 25?

(3)  Now that you are 30, would you say you know more about God now, then at 25?

(4)  I am 63... in 33 years when you arrive at MY AGE, ...if you keep on searching your Bible... do you think you shall know more about God than you do today?

Well... I made my point about TIME and SEARCHING...  and although she did not decide UR would eventually be believed by her, she was forced to examine the idea that TIME unfolds knowledge that one does not presently hold, and that it was in the realm of possibility that she might one day "see", what I have come to "see"...  :dontknow:

I wish the same to you dear friend... Give yourself TIME, and keep looking... in TIME, you shall find more than you can imagine at this point in TIME.

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[Molly]

22And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, ...

....and he was not; for God took him.

--Gen 4


....for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. :cloud9:

--Heb 11

[willieH]

22And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, ...

....and he was not; for God took him.

--Gen 4


....for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. :cloud9:

--Heb 11:5

Heb 11:13 --- These ALL DIED in Faith -- NOT -- having recieved the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth...

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[Molly]

Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.



Enoch was a special case.  But I was thinking about your saying how much you could learn in 30 years of walking with God.  Imagine what you could learn in 300 years.




[Enoch] "walked" [with God...three hundred years]

H1980
הלך
hâlak
haw-lak'
Akin to H3212; a primitive root; to walk (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively): - (all) along, apace, behave (self), come, (on) continually, be conversant, depart, + be eased, enter, exercise (self), + follow, forth, forward, get, go (about, abroad, along, away, forward, on, out, up and down), + greater, grow, be wont to haunt, lead, march, X more and more, move (self), needs, on, pass (away), be at the point, quite, run (along), + send, speedily, spread, still, surely, + tale-bearer, + travel (-ler), walk (abroad, on, to and fro, up and down, to places), wander, wax, [way-] faring man, X be weak, whirl.

[willieH]

Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.


Enoch was a special case.  But I was thinking about your saying how much you could learn in 30 years of walking with God.  Imagine what you could learn in 300 years.

Enoch was still found IN ADAM... and, a sinner is a sinner... and any and ALL descendents of ADAM -- DIE in him -- 1 Cor 15:22 -- Enoch was 7th FROM ADAM:  (1) Adam/ (2) Seth/ (3) Enos/ (4) Cainan/ (5) Mahalaleel/ (6) Jared/ (7) Enoch

God is completely and pefectly IMPARTIAL and is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS -- Acts 10:34 -- Rom 2:11 -- Prov 28:21 -- Gal 2:6 -- Eph 6:9 -- 2 Sam 14:14 -- Mark 12:14 -- Col 3:25 -- 2 Chron 19:7 -- Job 34:19

[Enoch]"walked" [with God...three hundred years]

H1980
הלך
hâlak
haw-lak'
Akin to H3212; a primitive root; to walk (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively): - (all) along, apace, behave (self), come, (on) continually, be conversant, depart, + be eased, enter, exercise (self), + follow, forth, forward, get, go (about, abroad, along, away, forward, on, out, up and down), + greater, grow, be wont to haunt, lead, march, X more and more, move (self), needs, on, pass (away), be at the point, quite, run (along), + send, speedily, spread, still, surely, + tale-bearer, + travel (-ler), walk (abroad, on, to and fro, up and down, to places), wander, wax, [way-] faring man, X be weak, whirl.

You are welcome to hold your view... but Scripture in many ways, contradicts this thinking...

As I noted, God is not PARTIAL to any man... and INSPIRED 10 Scriptures to found that statement (noted above)...

ALL these and more include Enoch:

(1)  JESUS CHRIST tasted death for EVERY MAN -- Heb 2:9
(2)  JESUS CHRIST is the SAVIOR of ALL MEN -- 1 Tim 2:6 -- 1 Tim 4:10
(3)  AS in ADAM ALL DIE -- 1 Cor 15:22
(4)  ALL men have an appointment to DIE -- Heb 9:27
(5)  Enoch is listed among those as dieing -- without having recieved the promises of FAITH -- Heb 11:5 ~~ 11:13
(6)  ALL have sinned and COME SHORT of the Glory of God -- Rom 3:23

Though we are raised IN HIM, and "TRANSLATED" into His Kingdom NOW -- Col 1:13 -- we ALL, shall STILL meet our individual APPOINTMENT with DEATH...

Believe what you will, sister Molly... as for me... I shall believe the Scriptures... and in that belief -- endeavor to NOT contradict them.  Enoch "in heaven" is a contradiction of MANY Scriptures in many different ways... Besides, there is no verse that notes ENOCH is --- "in Heaven"...  :dontknow:  

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Molly kind of proves my point. Here's another "peculiar" example, in Hebrews (7) talking about Melchisedec:

v3: Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. (Please excuse the bold, I know you can read...) :)

Heavy stuff.. (This Melchisedec dude is one I'd LOVE to meet!! And apparently he's still in the priesthood!)

Yet I cannot deny all the verses you mention, WillieH.

This is where I begin to say that to me, there do seem to be some apparent "contradictions." Now with this, I don't mean to say that I don't believe the Bible is accurate or God-inspired, because I do! Contradiction does not imply accuracy. (If it were a math text maybe so..!)
What it does imply is that it is not logical.
Love is another example of something not logical. It was not logical for Jesus to lay down His life. But He did, and that in love.

Today there are many, many denominations. These come from doctrinal differences. If we all walked in love (including myself!) then perhaps the Kingdom would come sooner!

So what do we do? We hold to the most principle aspects of our faith. Others take second place. Love vs. hate. Peace vs. war. Submission vs. oppression. Patience vs. impatience. When the rubber hits the road, we discover what we really believe in.

That's why I admire the Haredi Jews. They are so meek and submissive. They are faithful, they do not fight, and the basis of their Jewish faith is peace and love. I think they are very Christ-like (based on 90% of what I read about Jesus) and I wish all us "Christians" were like this! It's not that conflict would end, but that our faith would show more brightly!

Then there are the Zionists......  :sigh:


Blessings to all,
Brian

[Molly]

there do seem to be some apparent "contradictions."

I don't think anything is being contradicted.  I think it's more a matter of we don't know the whole story.

For instance, we see the book of Jasher mentioned by our Bible.


Joshua 10:13
And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.


2 Samuel 1:18
(Also he bade them teach the children of Judah the use of the bow: behold, it is written in the book of Jasher.)



So I feel comfortable looking in the book of Jasher for more information about Enoch, because we are given very little information about him.  It's worth exploring, at least.

36 And when the kings returned they caused a census to be taken, in order to know the number of remaining men that went with Enoch; and it was upon the seventh day that Enoch ascended into heaven in a whirlwind, with horses and chariots of fire.

--Jasher 3

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/apo/jasher/3.htm



According to the book of Jasher, Enoch is taken into heaven the same way Elijah was!  :mshock:


[To be cont'd]


 

[whyiloveitaly.com]

The complexity of the scriptures is also shown in this:
that even though there are verses in the NT that talk about "salvation by faith alone," for every one I find a verse somewhere where we will be judged by our WORKS. (ie, Jesus said that if we do commandments 1 and 2, we will see life! Or that the Kingdom will be taken from one and given to another who brings forth fruit of righteousness. Or Peter's explanation to Cornelius that "whosoever fears God and does good works are accepted by Him.)

So I see many points of view, about so many subjects!

Blessings,
Brian

[Molly]

The complexity of the scriptures is also shown in this:
that even though there are verses in the NT that talk about "salvation by faith alone," for every one I find a verse somewhere where we will be judged by our WORKS. (ie, Jesus said that if we do commandments 1 and 2, we will see life! Or that the Kingdom will be taken from one and given to another who brings forth fruit of righteousness. Or Peter's explanation to Cornelius that "whosoever fears God and does good works are accepted by Him.)

So I see many points of view, about so many subjects!

Blessings,
Brian

Again, it is a matter of interpretation.  James is talking about something called 'works' which we know from the meaning of the word is some kind of act.  He tells us faith without works is dead.  So then you might think I better run out and spend 30 hours a week in the soup kitchen so that I have works to prove my faith.

But here Paul tells us there is not only the dead faith described by James but dead works as well.


Hebrews 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God.


What might dead works be?  Could an example be the many rituals of the Pharisees who swallowed a camel but choked on a gnat?  Their heart was far from God.  Even though they spent all their daily hours doing 'works,'  Jesus tells them they are full of dead men's bones.

Paul tells us forget all of that and let us go on to perfection.  What is perfection?  

[unto] "perfection"
G5047
τελειότης
teleiotēs
tel-i-ot'-ace
From G5046; (the state) completeness (mentally or morally): - perfection (-ness).


So it's a state of completeness.  And what makes us complete?

John 17:23
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.



"made perfect"

G5048
τελειόω
teleioō
tel-i-o'-o
From G5046; to complete, that is, (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character): - consecrate, finish, fulfil, (make) perfect.



Will there then be any question that everything we say, do, any action we take, will therefore be pleasing to God and the living works of a living faith?  :bigGrin:

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Molly,
Personally, I don't know which works are "dead" and which aren't. It's not really an issue to me.
I have faith (given to me by God).
And I do works (like soup kitchens). (I don't do them to "prove" anything, although the world does judge me by them and I know that this is important in my witness.)
And I'm happy!

Others think that all they need is their faith. That's between them and God.
Personally, I feel called to action, and I do where I can.

Don't know if that makes any sense..

Blessings,
Brian

[Seth]

Molly,
Personally, I don't know which works are "dead" and which aren't. It's not really an issue to me.
I have faith (given to me by God).
And I do works (like soup kitchens). (I don't do them to "prove" anything, although the world does judge me by them and I know that this is important in my witness.)
And I'm happy!

To me that is the answer. Dead works are those done by the law, which are our OWN works, and the works you just described are "good works" which are by faith and sanctification of the Spirit.

Others think that all they need is their faith. That's between them and God.
Personally, I feel called to action, and I do where I can.

It's not just a personal call, EVERY Christian is called to action. And that action is not just working in soup kitchens (which is GREAT stuff) but even bringing the word of truth is a good work. Anything we do according to the sanctification according to him who both wills and works within us according to HIS pleasure is a good work and NOT a work of the law, thereby saving us from the conversation we once had, in our minds and actions, with sin.

[HartleyDamboiseII]

To get some true answers a good book to check  is ,
How to Scripturally Study the Scriptures  at Concordant Publishing Concern

and yes "there" "you have to pay for it"

Unbelievable well of Knowledge, it answers all the Questions at hand on this thread.

Lee

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Brian...  :HeartThrob:

I prepared a whole answer for you and lost it, so here goes try #2!  :sigh:

Molly kind of proves my point. Here's another "peculiar" example, in Hebrews (7) talking about Melchisedec:

v3: Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. (Please excuse the bold, I know you can read...) :)

Heavy stuff.. (This Melchisedec dude is one I'd LOVE to meet!! And apparently he's still in the priesthood!)

There is no indication that Melchisidec was a MAN ("dude")...

Melchisidec is a manifestation of GOD Brian... for CHRIST is not patterned after ANY MAN -- Heb 5:6 -- MAN "does for himself"  -- CHRIST "did for GOD"
CHRIST is completely UNCHANGING -- Heb 13:8 -- does NOTHING for himself -- John 5:19   -- and proceeds AS IS, from the mouth of GOD, who also is UNCHANGING -- Mal 3:6 -- So if any portion of CHRIST is deduced ("after" Melchisidec) -- then Melchisidec is a manifestation of YHVH God as well...

Melchisidec is noted as the KING of PEACE -- Heb 7:2 -- NO [sinful] "MAN" can be known as the KING of PEACE... this is a title reserved for GOD... :nod: -- Rom 15:33 -- Phil 4:9 -- Heb 13:20

Yet I cannot deny all the verses you mention, WillieH.

This is where I begin to say that to me, there do seem to be some apparent "contradictions." Now with this, I don't mean to say that I don't believe the Bible is accurate or God-inspired, because I do! Contradiction does not imply accuracy. (If it were a math text maybe so..!)

Contradiction is not of the Scriptures... only of the uninspired VIEW of them.  If we see them from an UNREVEALED (distorted/literal) perspective, then they shall appear DISTORTED [contradictory] to us as we read them in the LITERAL. 

However, when REVELATION comes from above... That which once appeared to us as DISTORTED [contradictory] -- making NO "sense" (literally), ...then appears as PERFECT (spiritually) and makes PERFECT [harmonious] "sense". :nod:

What it does imply is that it is not logical.
Love is another example of something not logical. It was not logical for Jesus to lay down His life. But He did, and that in love.

Why would you consider the doings of LOVE, "illogical"?  No offense bro, ...but only a view centered in SELF would note the acts of UNSELFISHNESS [LOVE] as "illogical"...  :dontknow:

LOVE "does for others" -- SELF "does for SELF"...  :dontknow:

That which is centered in SELFISHNESS, takes care of SELF, then if there is anything left over, ...MIGHT or MIGHT NOT (but probably WON'T), ...share with, or do for others.

Today there are many, many denominations. These come from doctrinal differences. If we all walked in love (including myself!) then perhaps the Kingdom would come sooner!

The Kingdom shall not come  :clock:  ONE MOMENT sooner or ONE MOMENT later, than is ALREADY determined by the Father.  For the MOMENT of CHRIST's return is KNOWN only by YHVH -- Matt 24:36 -- and His [perfect] KNOWLEDGE is UNCHANGING. (certainly NOT dependent upon what we DO or don't DO)

So what do we do? We hold to the most principle aspects of our faith. Others take second place. Love vs. hate. Peace vs. war. Submission vs. oppression. Patience vs. impatience. When the rubber hits the road, we discover what we really believe in.

That's why I admire the Haredi Jews. They are so meek and submissive. They are faithful, they do not fight, and the basis of their Jewish faith is peace and love. I think they are very Christ-like (based on 90% of what I read about Jesus) and I wish all us "Christians" were like this! It's not that conflict would end, but that our faith would show more brightly!

I guess then, it starts with YOU, Brian... You cannot control another, but you CAN control yourself.  So if you wish PEACE to be in the world, begin with yourself, then all who observe your PEACE, shall find it portrayed before them BY YOU, and hopefully it will influence all those you encounter, to be PEACEFUL as well...  :cloud9:  At the very least, ...YOU shall find PEACE... and be conveying it to others...

Then there are the Zionists......  :sigh:

Blessings to all,
Brian

Why not begin, by asking yourself -- what "PEACE" was suggested in that statement, Brian?  :JCThink:

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[Molly]

Melchisidec is noted as the KING of PEACE -- Heb 7:2 -- NO [sinful] "MAN" can be known as the KING of PEACE... this is a title reserved for GOD...  -- Rom 15:33 -- Phil 4:9 -- Heb 13:20

:thumbsup:

And, "King of righteousness."


"Melchizedek"
H4442
מלכּי־צדק
malkîy-tsedeq
mal-kee-tseh'-dek
From H4428 and H6664; king of right; Malki-Tsedek, an early king in Palestine: - Melchizedek.



H4428
מלך
melek
meh'-lek
From H4427; a king: - king, royal.



H6664
צדק
tsedeq
tseh'-dek
From H6663; the right (natural, moral or legal); also (abstractly) equity or (figuratively) prosperity: -  X even, (X that which is altogether) just (-ice), ([un-]) right (-eous) (cause, -ly, -ness).


Jeremiah 23:6
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

[whyiloveitaly.com]

WillieH:
Your posts are more detailed than mine are; please forgive me for passing over some of what you responded. It's not that it's not of interest, it's just my tendency to look at what I think is more important first.

The Zionists want their own way, not God's. They are even willing to kill for it, and what's more, they "sell it" as being God's will.
Peace is the way they haven't considered yet. But some Jews (ie Haredi Jews) are speaking out and want others to know that Zionism is of the flesh, not of God.
I used to think that all Jews supported the violence in the ME. Now I see that there are some who say that only God will liberate Israel, and that the Jews must wait and live in peace with others. This, to me, is very Christ-like.

America supports Zionism much more than the peace that the Haredim speak of. I can say this because I grew up in America hearing only about violence regarding the State of Israel.
Now I know that the Jews who believe in and are faithful to the Torah want to live in peace with the Arabs (as they have always done) and want the State of Israel to be peacefully dismantled.
Thanks to Internet, we can learn more than what we used to hear only on TV!

I consider love to be illogical in the sense that we are called to love, help and give to those who hate us. That is not considered "logical."
Many people cannot believe that God would "just forgive sinners" without their asking. But I don't think love looks at the scorecard before acting.

As for contradictions in scripture, and how soon the Kingdom will come, I cannot say that I know. What I DO know is that there are many denominations, and each one, if asked, will tell you that THEIR interpretation is correct. 1,000 denominations, 1,000 interpretations. ALL correct. ???
So this is where I say that, what I sense today, is that the only things that we will be able to hold on to when we pass from this world, is LOVE, faith, hope (in God's mercy!). The rest will fall into place.
Paul was sure of what he taught. But we sure have made a mess of it as time has gone by!

1,000 denominations, 1,000 "right" answers.
But LOVE rises up above it all.

Blessings,
Brian

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Brian...  :cloud9:

Thanks for your answer bro...  :icon_king:

WillieH:
Your posts are more detailed than mine are; please forgive me for passing over some of what you responded. It's not that it's not of interest, it's just my tendency to look at what I think is more important first.

That is okay my friend, you have the right to answer as you do, no criticisms from me. I only ask that if you should ASK questions and expect answers to them, that you answer when ASKED.  :dontknow:

The Zionists want their own way, not God's. They are even willing to kill for it, and what's more, they "sell it" as being God's will.

To be honest, I have not researched into this movement (which appears to be largely political as well as "religious")... supportive of the nation of Israel, and them regaining in full, the land given them by God.  Which is explained from an obviously secular standpoint here (as it mentions "YHVH" as if He were some imagined entity):

http://www.serendipity.li/zionism.htm

A secular position (such as "Serendipity" appears to be), can only define religion from a secular viewpoint... and thinks itself as INOBJECTIVE... when it is NOT.  This is just like a VEGETARIAN critcizing the CARNIVORE, for the food he eats, or vice-versa... :rolleye:

Without going into "sovereignty"... NOTHING that occurs, is outside of "GOD's Will", for if a given thing exists, then the Creator is found sustaining the right to that existence.  Scripture notes that GOD is working ALL THINGS -- Eph 1:11 -- that this statement is NOT believed, even by "followers", does not negate what it SAYS.

Peace is the way they haven't considered yet. But some Jews (ie Haredi Jews) are speaking out and want others to know that Zionism is of the flesh, not of God.

You are taking your own observation of these, and determining what they are.  We do not have the right to JUDGE others as CHRIST noted:  Matt 7:1 -- so it is best to avoid making such statements...

As I noted above, GOD is working ALL THINGS according to HIS WILL... so ALL THINGS that occur, have a place IN that "will", as they are manifest concerning HIS PURPOSE, which, concerning the "BIG PICTURE", is beyond our "sight" to "see"...  :dontknow:

ALL THINGS are being WORKED by God bro... Eph 1:11 -- that we, in our individual outlooks and viewpoints do not "see" this, does not mean it is not so.  Again, at the risk of using the word "sovereignty", men (for the most part) cannot wrap themselves around the FACT that GOD is involved in the manifestation of ALL THINGS, and is intentioned that they BE as they occur.

I used to think that all Jews supported the violence in the ME. Now I see that there are some who say that only God will liberate Israel, and that the Jews must wait and live in peace with others. This, to me, is very Christ-like.

CHRIST plainly stated that "His coming" was not to send PEACE into the world, rather to send a SWORD... The SWORD is that which DIVIDES the TRUTH from LIES.  In doing so, there shall be FERVENT oppositions that arise as it extends further and further into time.

Even in Christianity... the DIVISIONS and GAPS grow larger (and will continue to do so) as time unfolds.

America supports Zionism much more than the peace that the Haredim speak of. I can say this because I grew up in America hearing only about violence regarding the State of Israel.

No man or entity OF MAN, shall bring PEACE to Israel or anyone else... GOD alone shall affect their captivity (part of which is blindness) -- Jer 29:14 -- and/or freedom from it, for it is HE which has driven MEN into Captivity...  :dontknow:

Now I know that the Jews who believe in and are faithful to the Torah want to live in peace with the Arabs (as they have always done) and want the State of Israel to be peacefully dismantled.
Thanks to Internet, we can learn more than what we used to hear only on TV!

Instead of deciding what the "state of Israel" should be, ...why not leave it in God's hands to decide?  You and I cannot do anything about how politicians deal with world affairs, so why let it be an existent trauma in our lives which we cannot affect?  I believe it is best to let it be known to God you have concern for these things, and leave it to HIM to resolve them.

I consider love to be illogical in the sense that we are called to love, help and give to those who hate us. That is not considered "logical."

Again, I disagree... to say LOVE is illogical is to say GOD is illogical, for -- GOD is LOVE -- 1 John 4:8

LOVE finds a way to correct that which is gone astray, not DESTROY it.  LOVE is the healing element of the DISEASE of being LOST.

LOVE is the MOST LOGICAL thing in existence.

Many people cannot believe that God would "just forgive sinners" without their asking. But I don't think love looks at the scorecard before acting.

Well said!  :thumbsup:

As for contradictions in scripture, and how soon the Kingdom will come, I cannot say that I know. What I DO know is that there are many denominations, and each one, if asked, will tell you that THEIR interpretation is correct. 1,000 denominations, 1,000 interpretations. ALL correct. ???

In erecting these "denominations", all these men and women set themselves and their "observations" of Scripture, as the MEASURE, with which to measure all others... How self-centered is that?  :laughing7:

When one truly seeks GOD, and discovers WHO and WHAT -- HE IS -- then one is humbled to the point of nothingness... and KNOWS one thing... that comparitively he KNOWS NOTHING.   The amount of SPACE we "occupy" in the Universe, ...is relative to WHAT we THINK we "know", as compared to what is available to KNOW...  So because our "knowledge" is so miniscule in content... How can we possibly think we are ABLE to deduce another human being's "ETERNAL" position?

In my 33 years of study, and 64 years of life within the SCHOOLS of LIFE and the WORD of GOD... I have found that, DAILY there is ALWAYS much to LEARN, and there shall ALWAYS WILL BE MUCH to LEARN...

So the question I must really ASK myself is... am I WILLING to LEARN?  Not -- have I NOW,  :heat: finally arrived upon the ABILITY and WISDOM to JUDGE others?  :JCThink:

So this is where I say that, what I sense today, is that the only things that we will be able to hold on to when we pass from this world, is LOVE, faith, hope (in God's mercy!). The rest will fall into place.

Again, well said Brian...  :cloud9:  If we take this stance, we take the stance of PEACE, and TRUST -- knowing that GOD is IN CONTROL of it all...

Paul was sure of what he taught. But we sure have made a mess of it as time has gone by!

PAUL did a good job of "messing things up" himself. -- read Rom 7 -- He was a man, just as are we... We must be careful not to "credit" PAUL with teaching... we must "credit" CHRIST, who TAUGHT PAUL, what to TEACH.

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[reFORMer]

Repentance from dead works and faith toward God are works of a sort.  Some judgments in my favor are for things I do NOT do.  Various Scriptures that superficially seem contradictory, when the connecting thoughts or a higher point of view are revealed are found in agreement.

To say Jesus alone "possesses" immortality as His own possession does not mean He is incapable of imparting it in the ways and to the extent He determines.  Like "the song of the 144,00 which no man can learn" doesn't mean no one else can sing along.  Possessed by the Holy Spirit others may take part; but, I think it is talking about immortality.  No one not immortal can learn immortality; so, only immortals can learn and know to sing the song of incorruptible and deathless life, though, again, some may sing along who are yet mortal because of possession by the Spirit of God.

Concerning Melchizedek it is written (loc.cit., Hob 7:8, CLT) "...of whom it is attested that he is living."  The author of Hebrews is saying that at the time he is writing Hebrews Melchizedek is reliably attested to as still being alive.  I will add that he probably is still praying in Jerusalem right now.

Come on!  Grasp that we are being taken into GOD!  We are to share with Him His own person, be "partakers of the Divine nature"..."we are His body, of His flesh and of His bone." God Himself said, "I called you all Elohim, all of you, sons of El Elyon."  Jesus quoted that Psalm saying "He called them Gods..." Life, immortality, incorruptible life and all manner of other blessings are manifest from God to His own.  Contriving certain phrases of Scripture to take all that away is very unwise indeed!  Faced with difficulties comparing Scripture with Scripture, we need to seek for answers reasoning according to the nature of the One with Whom we have to do, including the overflowing abundance of good things that is so true to Him, what He is like.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: :thumbsup:

[whyiloveitaly.com]

WillieH:
If I have not answered any of your questions, I do apologize. Please ask and I promise I will answer!
I know that, since you have been directly involved in the Vietnam war, that you understand that people DO get involved in world matters, especially when we feel particularly strong about them. The conflict in the ME is of particular interest to me because I read a lot of the Jews sacred documents! One of the 10 commandments is "thou shalt not kill" and yet I see Jews killing their fellow man, so I am in some way, concerned. (I also like to understand the Jews better, because God made them, just like He made you and me!)

In addition, I have read from several sources that seem to agree that Zionism (the source of the conflict) is supported mostly by CHRISTIANS. And that, evangelical/fundamental types. So to me, it's almost like having the mafia in your own home. And so I feel even more compelled to speak against it, especially because if I tell someone I'm a Christian I am often lumped into that group.

I too didn't know much about the ME until recently (except for the little I heard on TV all my life). And I agree that God will work all things according to His hand.
And I feel His hand leading me into addressing this issue (ME conflict) as well.

Thank you for the serendipity link. I think I'll be checking it out more in the future. That doesn't mean that I take it as a "perfect" source, just one of many with which to compare the facts.
If we have been given the mind of Christ, shouldn't we use it? And especially to help our neighbors in conflict, who don't yet know the love of God?

Blessings,
Brian