Tentmaker Forum

Hi everyone!
As I spend time on our thread (and I just want to say that I really love you guys!  :HeartThrob: The thread about drinking was really kind of a relief to me. So many Christians see alcohol or cannibis or whatever as the devil, and they don't see that it's not what goes IN the body that defiles a man!

Off track...

Anyway,

I wanted to "flesh out" some things that have been on my mind, which I think kind of go beyond what we all believe or don't believe.. about this or that doctrine (free will issue, kingdom of God within issue, all saved now or later issue....)

I want to set all of that aside, and deal with some real BASIC elements, which, when put out there to look at, may help us walk more intimately with the Lord Almighty. (And isn't that the purpose of all our chatting anyways??)

SO,
what I'd like to start out by saying, is that, if we say we believe what the Bible says, then it means that we believe in some pretty heavy stuff. Stuff that goes way beyond Star Trek, hyperspace, de-materializing, etc...

We can look at sci-fi and say, "man, that stuff is pretty out there!" But the Bible is AT LEAST as out there. Yet there are grandmas and grandpas who hold onto it until the end!
Walking on water, feeding hundreds of people with a loaf of bread, a bunch of bones that become men on their feet, a sea parted in two, people who have no birthdate and who are "translated" to heaven, Jesus being "transfigured."  (By the way-- what did a bunch of people in the middle east 2,000 years ago DO with such a concept??!? At least today we see sci-fi people de-materialize, beamed up, etc, and so we're used to it, so to speak.
But what would Mary or Martha say to James or John when they came back from the mountain.."hey Mary, Jesus was transfigured today!!"  :mshock:  :mshock:  :mshock: ) Or, oh yeah, I've seen that one before.. maybe it'll be in Star Wars someday..   :mshock:

Now I believe that God can do anything. I believe that He has no difficulty melting the hardest heart, converting the most cruel of people (He did to Saul for all to see), so I can believe that perhaps everyday He's converting people as they leave their physical bodies, all being brought in the fold....    this I have no real difficulty believing. If He can make this marvellous universe, should He have any difficulty converting the sinner??????

I believe we will all have that "supernatural" power of God someday: healing people, traveling from one place to another without natural means, speaking to a bunch of bones to get up--and seeing it happen!
In other words, I believe that we'll have POWER. And a PURPOSE.


I forgot where I was going with this, but I'll be back, God willing..

Blessings to all,
Brian

OK, I'm back.

My point is, that I can sit and debate about a lot of issues.
The fact is, that most of them are doctrines which I know little or nothing about. And none of us can know for sure, unless we have a direct revelation. Otherwise we just have to wait.

So I look at the things that we do know for sure, and I discover that there are many. It's perhaps we just need to return to them again and again.

Like the fact that God has made ALL things. Or that God makes the good and the evil. Or that whatever befalls us, good or bad, we must accept it, because it is God who is in charge, not us. He is the Maker, and all we can do is say "thank you" and "amen." (Not because we "have to," but because we are the creation, not the Creator.)

We can believe that God can raise the dead. --But we somehow have a hard time believing that He can save the whole creation. Or renew it. Or just forgive it. Or love it even if it doesn't love Him.
Or whatever He feels like doing with it because He's God.

I don't know about pre-tribulation. I don't know the extent of man's "free will." I don't know if being saved or reconciled is the same thing. But I believe that one day we will all know very well. (Perhaps our physical bodies aren't made to withstand such revelations. Paul had some revelations which he said were not lawful to be uttered. What's that all about????)

All I know is that God is GOD. He can do whatever He wants, and I believe in His power as well as in His mercy and His love. Nothing is impossible for Him. He does whatever He wants, and no-one can stop Him or say that He's wrong. He can take dust and make a man. So I believe that He can also save all His works, if it is true that He is Love.

Brian

 :cloud9: The power is only a future event because it has not been manifested in most believers, but we have power NOW, all the fullness was in Jesus and that SAME FULLNESS have we ALL received, via the baptism in the Spirit/Pentecost, the down payment on what is to be manifested. As we decrease, He increases and that includes His power thru a believer. Acts was all about the power given to the church, and how that power was and IS manifested thru those that believe, which is why it was called "acts" as an action verb, ie. people doing something thru the power.

An evil heart of unbelief is what has to be dealt with in all of us, to partake of that power from others who have pressed in to receive the manifestation of it in their lives and also to manifest it ourselves.

Colossians 1:19 KJV For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell ;

Colossians 2:9 KJV For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily

John 1:16 KJV And of his fulness have all we received , and grace for grace.

Hebrews 3:12 KJV Take heed , brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

The reason they refer to Him as a living God is because our God is not deaf, dumb, blind, or lame, nor is His hand too short to save/make whole/heal. He hears, He speaks, He sees, He walks among us, unlike gods of wood (the carnal flesh nature of man) or stone (imaginations birthed out of the stony evil heart of unbelief). Blessings....

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on November 28, 2009, 09:45:33 PM
Like the fact that God has made ALL things. Or that God makes the good and the evil. Or that whatever befalls us, good or bad, we must accept it, because it is God who is in charge, not us. He is the Maker, and all we can do is say "thank you" and "amen." (Not because we "have to," but because we are the creation, not the Creator.)

You said it: God made all things. And because He know before creating how His "things" would behave it isn't of real importance if man has or hasn't free will. So He already knew what that free will would decide. And He called everything good so that free will or lack of free will fits perfectly in His design plan. That basicly also means it doesn't really matter if satan was created that way or he is a fallen angel. Either way it fits in the "God saw it was good." design.

So those few little words "made all things" basicly says it all.
Yep, the Potter has full control over His clay. When the Potter wants to create a vase the clay in no way can decide it will become a dish.

Unlikely the Sci-Fi writers came up with all that material on their own.
Most likely — they did get it from the Bible!
Which, perhaps, is why it is so popular.
It is God's word, camouflaged.

willieH: Hi WW... :hithere:

:friendstu:  Hope you shall understand what I say below...  :laughing7:

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 28, 2009, 10:11:51 PM

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on November 28, 2009, 09:45:33 PM
Like the fact that God has made ALL things. Or that God makes the good and the evil. Or that whatever befalls us, good or bad, we must accept it, because it is God who is in charge, not us. He is the Maker, and all we can do is say "thank you" and "amen." (Not because we "have to," but because we are the creation, not the Creator.)

You said it: God made all things. And because He know before creating how His "things" would behave it isn't of real importance if man has or hasn't free will. So He already knew what that free will would decide. And He called everything good so that free will or lack of free will fits perfectly in His design plan. That basicly also means it doesn't really matter if satan was created that way or he is a fallen angel. Either way it fits in the "God saw it was good." design.

So those few little words "made all things" basicly says it all.
Yep, the Potter has full control over His clay. When the Potter wants to create a vase the clay in no way can decide it will become a dish.

That GOD KNOWS (before a thing occurs), what outcome results of "choices made"... plainly notes that the outcome is due to what HE KNOWS (for His "KNOWLEDGE" is perfect), ...not due to the ability of the "chooser" to do other than HIS PRIOR KNOWLEDGE of the event indicated. 

So the "choice made" was already "in place" by YHVH's KNOWLEDGE of IT, before IT took place.   :JCThink:

Let me give you an example...

There were many PROPHECIES made of CHRIST... Do you percieve that He could have actually ALTERED any of them?  If you believe He could have, then you therefore assert that GOD's FOREKNOWLEDGE is potentially ...IMPERFECT...

And if CHRIST could do NOTHING that would alter what YHVH KNEW and PROPHESIED of Him...  then how can we be arrogant enough to think we have a "will" that could manifest  OTHER than that which the FOREKNOWLEDGE of YHVH -- KNEW of us?

The FOREKNOWLEDGE of YHVH is only PERFECT, if the events which are noted WITHIN IT and BY IT --- come to PASS EXACTLY (to the detail), as is revealed.  :dontknow:

That each human being's details are also before and subject to, the FOREKNOWLEDGE of YHVH is demonstrated in these verses:

Matt 6:8 -- be not ye therefore like unto them for YOUR FATHER KNOWETH what things ye have need of -- BEFORE ye ASK HIM --- This is because what GOD KNOWS --- is what occurs -- He KNEW the need, AND that you would ASK Him, BEFORE the NEED and the REQUEST the need be filled, ...was ASKED.

Matt 10:30 -- Luke 12:7 -- but the very HAIRS of your head are ALL NUMBERED -- this is a varying number (changing within the progression of time, as those of us who are "follically challenged" are quite well aware!)  :laughing7: --- This verse demonstrates that this number (which changes throughout life), is KNOWN by YHVH.  His FOREKNOWLEDGE noting BEFORE --- the beginning [alpha] number and the ending [omega] number, and ALL numbers within that progression -- PRIOR to that one even taking a breath.

willieH: WW...  :sigh:

I earnestly stated that I sincerely hoped you would understand what I said in my post, but you in your own contrary way... made sarcasm of it.  :thumbdown: -- Whatever!

WW... you DON'T understand my words, because you WON'T...  :winkgrin:  And to be truthful and honest, I could care less...  :dontknow:

Those who are meant to understand them ... (here's the keyword) ---WILL!

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on November 28, 2009, 09:45:33 PM
Like the fact that God has made ALL things. Or that God makes the good and the evil. Or that whatever befalls us, good or bad, we must accept it, because it is God who is in charge, not us. He is the Maker, and all we can do is say "thank you" and "amen." (Not because we "have to," but because we are the creation, not the Creator.)

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 28, 2009, 10:11:51 PMYou said it: God made all things. And because He know before creating how His "things" would behave it isn't of real importance if man has or hasn't free will. So He already knew what that free will would decide.  And He called everything good so that free will or lack of free will fits perfectly in His design plan. That basicly also means it doesn't really matter if satan was created that way or he is a fallen angel. Either way it fits in the "God saw it was good." design.

The biggest difference between what you said and what I said, involved committment.

You are "sitting on the fence" in stating that "it doesn't matter if "free will" does or doesn't exist (uncommitted), saying --- God KNEW beforehand what "men" would decide -- and thereby composed the PLAN according to their "choices" -- :rolleye: -- PLEASE!  (WHO is really "GOD" in this foolish equation?)

"Manipulation" takes place in either viewpoint WW,  ...either...

(1)  MEN manipulate GOD's "plan" by their "free will" choices, causing HIM to deal with THEM... or,

(2)  GOD manipulates "men's choices" causing THEM to deal with HIM. --

I choose to believe the latter. (committed)  
You choose to believe neither (non-commital).

This thinking ("free will") claims that the CREATOR is an "observer" which happens to have made men, and given this "free will" to them, and because His "eternal" OBSERVATIONAL position allowed Him to SEE what we all "would do" in time, ...and with these "ingredients" was HIS "designed plan" put in place...

As you see it -- men decide things, and God puts those decisions together to result in GOOD... How can that be seen as HIS DESIGN, WW?   :mshock:

IOW -- God is basically not DOING anything, rather, this thinking notes that He employs and gathers man's CHOICES (which men call "free will") in order to bring about an end that was GOOD... :mshock:  (You ARE NOT comitted to this as the formula of GOD's "Plan")

I on the other hand, note that there is no such thing as "free will", and am committed to the thinking that --- ALL THINGS (which the WORD states - Eph 1:11) are WORKED by GOD... either He is WORKING or WE ARE... cannot BE both.

IOW -- Our "choices" (even though we are not consciously aware), are made by HIS DECLARATION and HIS WORKING of ALL THINGS... We "choose" in alignment to that DECLARATION (which is unknown to us)... Which shows that HE is WORKING ALL THINGS, and men are the OBJECTS that HE IS WORKING, which cannot END in other than GOOD = COMMITTMENT --- (You are ALSO -- NOT committed to this, as the formula of God's "Plan")

If one can understand this simplicity it is the key to understanding what is actually taking place in this life... CHRIST -- NEVER -- CHANGES!

MEN are the BODY of CHRIST -- 1 Cor 12:27 -- 1 Cor 15:22 -- (which never changes)  Wherever life is taking place (earth or heaven) or Whenever life is taking place (time or eternity).

The elements of His body cannot have a "WILL" in this realm, which is apart from HIS WILL in the ETERNAL...  For CHRIST never changes.  One might ask, then HOW can MEN do EVIL?

Glad ONE asked!  :laughing7:  

MEN are the LIVING KNOWLEDGE of GOD, being manifest... which KNOWLEDGE is of both GOOD and EVIL.  

ALL men IN ADAM (son of GOD), (Physically descended from him as their father) are the portrayal (outward manifestation) of EVIL that lies within GOD's KNOWLEDGE.

ALL men IN CHRIST (son of GOD) (fathered by YHVH, and therefore, not in ADAM's physical lineage) is the portrayal (outward manifestation) of GOOD that also lies within GOD's KNOWLEDGE.

Both lineages of CHRIST in the NT... do NOT show Him to be the NATURAL descendent of the forefather of disobedience, ADAM... each are rooted in JOSEPH which did NOT SIRE CHRIST --

Matt 1:1-16 -- vs 16 = lineage is of Joseph
Luke 3:23-38 -- vs 23 = lineage is of Joseph

If one will, the observation of the body is as follows:

(1)  YOU "will" your hands to do what YOU decide they shall DO...

(2)  they do not DO anything aside from YOUR "PLAN".  They have NO real "will" aside from YOUR will.
 
(3)  In this, YOUR hands are LOVED by you and CHERISHED by you and NEEDED by you... EVER SERVING YOU and YOUR WILL, not their own.

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 28, 2009, 10:11:51 PMSo those few little words "made all things" basicly says it all.
Yep, the Potter has full control over His clay. When the Potter wants to create a vase the clay in no way can decide it will become a dish.

Very well said, WW... the POTTER decides EVERYTHING.  The clay decides NOTHING.  The CLAY, though MADE by the POTTER (via HIS WILL) to be naturally resistant, shall become what is DECIDED by the POTTER, in ALL PHASES of its creation... NEVER ONCE does the CLAY EVER enact its "will", for no such thing exists.  The ONLY "WILL" that exists is the WILL of the POTTER...

That is why the "clay" has NO RIGHT to protest, for the only REALITY is the WILL of the Father, to LOVE and MOLD the clay... according to HIS WILL as their GOD, not their's...  :dontknow:

Paul notes the ridiculous thinking that men arrogantly IDOLIZE -- Rom 9:20 -- and anyone CLINGING to such FOOLISHNESS, have not HEARD the WORD.

And are proceeding to "live" and "act" within this group:  Matt 7:22-23

Quote from: willieH on November 29, 2009, 10:43:04 PMYou are "sitting on the fence" in stating that "it doesn't matter if "free will" does or doesn't exist (uncommitted), saying --- God KNEW beforehand what "men" would decide -- and thereby composed the PLAN according to their "choices" -- :rolleye: -- PLEASE!  (WHO is really "GOD" in this foolish equation?)

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 28, 2009, 10:11:51 PMSo those few little words "made all things" basicly says it all.
Yep, the Potter has full control over His clay. When the Potter wants to create a vase the clay in no way can decide it will become a dish.

Very well said, WW... the POTTER decides EVERYTHING.[/quote]

---

WillieH just read back what you quoted above from my post(about the Potter). Then ask yourself if I would change my view to the opposite in the same short post. With that tought in mind reread the message that so upsets you and you will (hopefully) see you are totally wrong about what I wrote. If not, there is no use spending more time on it. Firstly because it's a forbidden subject. Secondly some words seem to trigger you in such a way you aren't even reading the message anymore; so you actually don't know what you are replying to.

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 30, 2009, 12:01:06 AM
WillieH just read back what you quoted above from my post(about the Potter). Then ask yourself if I would change my view to the opposite in the same short post. With that tought in mind reread the message that so upsets you and you will (hopefully) see you are totally wrong about what I wrote.

You are quite oblivious aren't you?  :wacko2:

Your post and the information contained in it, is not was upsets me...

It is your facetious, disrespectful and condescending attitude with the inferences made toward me (you KNOW what they are)... made in your comments as well as your little PICTURE (which you obviously went OUT OF YOUR WAY, by spending EXTRA time trying to find it on the internet), to enhance you sorrowful UNFRUITFUL comments.  :thumbdown: Which had nothing to do with the discussion between us, and are totally out of line.  :thumbdown:

Whoa!! This is not the subject at hand!!
Both of you guys (WW and WillieH) may be right. But there's really no need to argue! The point I was trying to make is that doctrine separates! How many religious denominations and schisms have been created based on doctrine!
What I was meaning to say is that we can look beyond the things which we really know little about (ie were there literal people that came out of their graves when Christ was buried; or, was the wine they drank really wine; or, who the 144,000 are; etc. etc. The list could extend around the world a few times I dare say!)
It's the fact that God is the one who we come from, it's He who will take us out of this world. We cannot even comprehend how the grass grows, let alone the limits of man's "free will!"

The book of Job is really sinking into my heart these days. We tend to think that salvation came with Jesus Christ, but I see in the OT that salvation and God the Saviour has ALWAYS been around! (I read on another thread here where Lee was saying that Jesus came for the lost sheep of Israel (Jews). This really makes a lot of sense, since it was He who was the only one able to fulfill the Law as God required it.)

God has always been a saviour. He forms us, we come out of Him and return back into Him. We depend totally upon Him for every breath He chooses to give us, and we cannot ever be lost because Jesus tells us that we are precious in His sight! Praise God!

His power is more than we can imagine, so expect anything! Because anything is possible with God! The woman with an issue of blood (Matt 9, Mark 5, Luke 8) KNEW somehow that by simply TOUCHING Jesus' clothing she would be healed! And she WAS! There was a power in Him that she somehow knew would be transferred to her from Him.
So it seems to be a normal "part of the supernatural" to expect power through touch. (IN the scriptures it's called "virtue." But we don't normally think of virtue in that way. But there it is called virtue.)

THAT is God. He can do all things, and does whatsoever He wills. (Although I'm aware that Moses convinced Him to repent of the evil He thought to do to the people of Israel.)
So maybe we can convince Him to "change His mind" at times, but I think that usually it is HE who commands. And that's a good thing, even when He is "breaking" us!


Rambling again...

Blessings to you all (and stop fighting!!),
Brian

lots of quenching the Spirit Bro Brian 
dust scattering  all over  the place

  you said alot of good things 
many are offened over the Word and how it is   concieved and recieved 
in our minds and hearts
  some its personal
  others  believe its not personal  etc .. 

Babylon is falling and its not a pretty sight  to see  there is war and soldiers as in the natural so in the Spiritual realm


Rev 17:17 For God has  put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. 

   the beast a mind of  self preservation ....  :msealed:

 

Last message about this 'topic' from me.

Quote from: willieHYou are quite oblivious aren't you?  :wacko2:

My memory is good enough to remember that the messages that are now removed show a different picture as what you are trying to paint now. You know action and reaction. If you would have understood my reply to whyiloveitaly you wouldn't have replied at all. Or perhaps with a "I agree" because I simply wrote what you always promote without using certain forbidden words. Then you start talking down to me. Fine I have no problem with little teasing; but then don't be offended at a little sneer back. So I searched 10 hours for a picture. Erm getting oblivious again. Took me 10 seconds.

---

To Rosey don't worry the spirit of division is put to sleep again. I said my thing. Case closed :icon_jokercolor:

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on November 30, 2009, 11:46:34 AM
What I was meaning to say is that we can look beyond the things which we really know little about (ie were there literal people that came out of their graves when Christ was buried; or, was the wine they drank really wine; or, who the 144,000 are; etc. etc.

You are looking for simple facts. Right?

Quote from: whyiloveitalySo I look at the things that we do know for sure, and I discover that there are many. It's perhaps we just need to return to them again and again.

Like the fact that God has made ALL things.

The problem is that there are many 'facts' that not everybody agrees on.
It wouldn't suprise me at all if someone claims God didn't create everything. Because satan did some tricks. You know as proof that God didn't create people like Hitler. But most will agree God created everything. But the rest you mentioned: 144,000, people rising from their graves.
Not all will agree with the same view. In fact I think there are many many views on it.
I think the only thing Christians agree on that we do not know as much as the HS does. That we are not perfect. And don't have perfect understanding of the scripture.
And because we have no perfect understanding about scripture we can never be 100% sure of anything.
I'm 100% sure of that :laughing7:

willieH: Hi Italy... :hithere:

Thanks for your attempts at PEACEMAKING... they are appreciated.  :boyheart:

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on November 30, 2009, 11:46:34 AM
Whoa!! This is not the subject at hand!!
Both of you guys (WW and WillieH) may be right.

Does not matter which (if either of us) is "right", italy...

What matters is that as we volunteer what our observations are, that the others we are in discussion with, are not purposely disrespected.

God shall reveal the TRUTH in any given matter, to THOSE that HE has chosen to KNOW it.  And that "revelation" is not dependent upon US -- nor does "revelation or blindness" to IT, make one of us MORE than the other. 

We are each here for a PURPOSE, and part of that PURPOSE is the manifestation of our INTERACTIONS, both Negative and Positive.

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on November 30, 2009, 11:46:34 AMBut there's really no need to argue!

I agree... but we should be posting our opposing or agreeing observations, in a gentle manner.

A discussion IS a debate, and a debate IS a discussion (they define each other and are essentially one and the same). 

So if we are involved in "discussion", then when we enter, we must be prepared for objections to our offerings/viewpoints.

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on November 30, 2009, 11:46:34 AMThe point I was trying to make is that doctrine separates! How many religious denominations and schisms have been created based on doctrine!

In observing the WORD of God, there are found the Cherubim of God, which HIDE the TRUTHS within it, which are PURPOSELY hidden by God... It is HIS WILL that we dig for the treasure, it is not handed TO US -- Prov 25:2

This process is the SWORD that CHRIST has SENT upon the earth -- Matt 10:34

We should making our best effort to not be generating provocation during our "discussion", for it sends the purpose and subject of the "discussion" down the wrong road.  However... if you ask a question in your TOPICAL presentation, then you must expect that varying ANSWERS to it shall be offered as potentially true.

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on November 30, 2009, 11:46:34 AMWhat I was meaning to say is that we can look beyond the things which we really know little about (ie were there literal people that came out of their graves when Christ was buried; or, was the wine they drank really wine; or, who the 144,000 are; etc. etc. The list could extend around the world a few times I dare say!)
It's the fact that God is the one who we come from, it's He who will take us out of this world. We cannot even comprehend how the grass grows, let alone the limits of man's "free will!"

I think you are fooling yourself, if you think we can discuss God and His WORD, without TEACHING (which is what doctrine means) entering into that discussion.  If one LEARNS something, then TEACHING has entered into the experience.

Your statement makes my point.  I could answer this statement by saying, how can an "non-existent thing" have "limits"?

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on November 30, 2009, 11:46:34 AMThe book of Job is really sinking into my heart these days. We tend to think that salvation came with Jesus Christ, but I see in the OT that salvation and God the Saviour has ALWAYS been around! (I read on another thread here where Lee was saying that Jesus came for the lost sheep of Israel (Jews). This really makes a lot of sense, since it was He who was the only one able to fulfill the Law as God required it.)

The WORD of God is ONE... it is not a bunch of disjointed stories... it is given to display the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL, before ALL existent and LIVING things.

The book of Job is about all of us.  It is (as I see it), about God giving to ALL, the everything of life [which is what GOOD does]... then taking it away [which is what EVIL does], ...then in the end, RESTORING it, FOR EVER.  Many observers believe this book to be allegorical (not about a "real" character), rather a symbolic presentation of the life of a MAN in which GOD imposes the scenarios of GOOD and EVIL, that the MAN via EXPERIENCE, might gain the KNOWLEDGE of it.  For "GOOD and EVIL" are ONE KNOWLEDGE.

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on November 30, 2009, 11:46:34 AMGod has always been a saviour. He forms us, we come out of Him and return back into Him. We depend totally upon Him for every breath He chooses to give us, and we cannot ever be lost because Jesus tells us that we are precious in His sight! Praise God!

Italy, ...God is much more than a Savior.  Yes, He has made provision to rescue us from the involvement with EVIL in this realm... but GOD's PURPOSE in this realm is not just to Save us from it... it is to teach us (and all observing us) --- HIS KNOWLEDGE.  He did not put us here, to Save us... He put us here to LEARN.

KNOWLEDGE is that which is contained in COMMUNICATION... and is only FULFILLED by taking that INFORMATION and applying it to EXPERIENCE.  Which is the "bigger picture" of the WORD of God.

We have been honored as His Children, to be the "LIVING paint in the LIVING painting" of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...  :cloud9: -- Rom 9:22-23

QuoteBlessings to you all (and stop fighting!!),
Brian

Thanks Brian for this wish... If we treat one another with respect, there will be no "fighting"  :dontknow:

WillieH and WW:
something tells me that we should just love each other...

God's glory is too big for us to understand, and we'll all be left speechless when we see Him in His glory..  I feel it...
Don't you?

Brian

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on November 30, 2009, 11:01:07 PM
WillieH and WW:
something tells me that we should just love each other...

I agree, ...however, intended provocation is not a motive of LOVE.  :dontknow:

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on November 30, 2009, 11:01:07 PMGod's glory is too big for us to understand, and we'll all be left speechless when we see Him in His glory..  I feel it...
Don't you?

Brian

Of course the PERFECT and ALMIGHTY GOD is beyond sinful beings to behold...

GOD instructs us to SEEK Him... Not just have a vision (which we are unable), of the HOLY state of His GLORY.

I do not "feel it"... I have come to KNOW it, in my own small way.

Again, your efforts at calling for PEACE are acknowledged by me, and appreciated.

I continue to seek Him, and continue to share that which I have found... in an earnest effort to please HIM, accompanied by the hope that what I share, He shall bless unto others.

     Transcending boundaries or viewpoints.
  (http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/2432/2432683y719uyvjxn.jpg) (http://www.glitter-graphics.com)
   A matter of international concern or benefit.
                                       

willieH: Hi Italy...  :cloud9:

To backtrack and address the OP:

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on November 28, 2009, 09:16:52 PM
Hi everyone!
As I spend time on our thread (and I just want to say that I really love you guys!  :HeartThrob: The thread about drinking was really kind of a relief to me. So many Christians see alcohol or cannibis or whatever as the devil, and they don't see that it's not what goes IN the body that defiles a man!

Amen...  :cloud9:

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on November 28, 2009, 09:16:52 PMOff track...

Anyway,

I wanted to "flesh out" some things that have been on my mind, which I think kind of go beyond what we all believe or don't believe.. about this or that doctrine (free will issue, kingdom of God within issue, all saved now or later issue....)

I want to set all of that aside, and deal with some real BASIC elements, which, when put out there to look at, may help us walk more intimately with the Lord Almighty. (And isn't that the purpose of all our chatting anyways??)

SO,
what I'd like to start out by saying, is that, if we say we believe what the Bible says, then it means that we believe in some pretty heavy stuff. Stuff that goes way beyond Star Trek, hyperspace, de-materializing, etc...

We can look at sci-fi and say, "man, that stuff is pretty out there!" But the Bible is AT LEAST as out there. Yet there are grandmas and grandpas who hold onto it until the end!
Walking on water, feeding hundreds of people with a loaf of bread, a bunch of bones that become men on their feet, a sea parted in two, people who have no birthdate and who are "translated" to heaven, Jesus being "transfigured."

You said you wished to abandon doctrine in the above statement -- "I want to set all that aside"... then you proceed to note DOCTRINAL beliefs such as "people who have no birthdate and who are 'translated' to heaven"...

That my dear and well-intentioned friend, is a doctrinal belief  :dontknow:  (Which BTW can be proven otherwise)

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on November 28, 2009, 09:16:52 PMBy the way-- what did a bunch of people in the middle east 2,000 years ago DO with such a concept??!? At least today we see sci-fi people de-materialize, beamed up, etc, and so we're used to it, so to speak.

We "see" this on TV or at the movies... If we were to "see" it in REALITY, we would not be so "used to it" as you seem to propose here, Italy.  :dontknow:

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on November 28, 2009, 09:16:52 PMBut what would Mary or Martha say to James or John when they came back from the mountain.."hey Mary, Jesus was transfigured today!!"  :mshock:  :mshock:  :mshock: ) Or, oh yeah, I've seen that one before.. maybe it'll be in Star Wars someday..   :mshock:

Star Wars is nothing but an IMAGINED and unrealistic scenario, for entertainment...  The REALITY of the MIRACLES of God, are quite a DIFFERENT scenario...  :happygrin:

:thinking: Maybe I am misunderstanding you... but are you saying that just because we happen to live in the 21st century -- our "modern" version of man, percieves himself as "above" being ASTOUNDED by GOD's MIRACLES?  :mshock:

:omg:  <---- We would indeed react to an OCEAN PARTING in the very same ASTOUNDING way that the "delivered Jews of the day", did!

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on November 28, 2009, 09:16:52 PMNow I believe that God can do anything. I believe that He has no difficulty melting the hardest heart, converting the most cruel of people (He did to Saul for all to see), so I can believe that perhaps everyday He's converting people as they leave their physical bodies, all being brought in the fold....    this I have no real difficulty believing. If He can make this marvellous universe, should He have any difficulty converting the sinner??????

Not a problem of Father YHVH, ...for NOTHING is impossible for GOD.  :myahoo:

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on November 28, 2009, 09:16:52 PMI believe we will all have that "supernatural" power of God someday: healing people, traveling from one place to another without natural means, speaking to a bunch of bones to get up--and seeing it happen!
In other words, I believe that we'll have POWER. And a PURPOSE.

I agree... but there is even treasure today in this life to behold... for we ALL have POWER and a PURPOSE... :nod:

I believe there will come a time, a generation on the earth, that will be powerfully swept along as in a tsunami by the powerful moving of the Holy Spirit.  It will be as a hurricane of fire, many of us as flames of fire that make up the vast storm descending into history now.  When we are overwhelmed what we are comes out.  Things are going to happen too fast to formulate a doctrinal hypothesis, only the raw extremes of life come into expression instead.  God will possess His chosen.  This is not symbolic possession or words to be debated.  No more getting ready.  Jesus is not waiting to see what you'll decide.  Some of us are heavy with child.  Like giving birth, as the contractions come closer and closer, increasingly nothing else can be considered.  Everything is focused on that one event.  We are going to be born of God in the physical aspect of our beings.  We shall undergo a metamorphisis.  God will seize what is His own.

 :cloud9: AMEN........

Reformer,
I agree with a lot of what you write, and in a way, it's precisely the fact that I agree with you that doesn't matter. In fact, as you note: Jesus is not waiting to see what we decide.

Doctrines can become a type of addiction. Church groups of all denominations hold to their doctrine, lifting up their feeling of "being right/righteous." Job (back to Job again!) was found guilty of exactly that: considering himself to be righteous!
So this is telling me that it's better to consider ourselves nothing, rather than being "in the right." Jesus said, "I came that those that see would be made blind."
The churches today are all shouting, "we see!!!" So are they blind?
Jesus is the light of the world. We all know that if we stare at a light too long we go blind.
Perhaps "seeing" is seeing that we really can't see. In fact, since God does what He wants with His creation which we are, how can we see anything without His hand???

WillieH:
(short answer to a long response:)
I think that when we read the scriptures we each decide which things are literal and which are symbolic. Yes, maybe indoctrination starts there.
Maybe that's why I like the Psalms so much. The psalmist pours out his heart's desire to God, and there is understanding and dialogue.

At any rate, it's not who's right that matters. At least I personally don't think so. I think love is more important than being right, and I don't think there's much doctrine in love.
Churches will kick people out if they don't adhere to their set of doctrines.. no love there!
Yet at the same time, if someone wants to frequent a church group, cool. That's what they feel. The important thing is love.
The rest is so much doctrine, and I have a feeling that, at the moment that we are taken away from this place, love, hope and faith will be the only things we will be allowed to carry with us.
"Did we love enough?" may be the question. (I know none of this isn't written in the Bible, so many will discount me here. That's ok.)
We can never love enough. We could get lost in love. "Fools for love" we could be called.
But in the end, it may be the ONLY thing that will have mattered.
And we'll have time to improve as we move into the eternities!

Today there's so much deception and lies about people of other countries. We have come to think that Iranians are children of the devil. But they're not. They're people who love and who need love, just like anyone else.
But some always want to start wars! And we Americans buy into it everytime! THIS is a serious problem which could/can/will be won by LOVE. God's love, God's amazing love-power!
Did you know that there were American troops driving tanks around in Iraq with banners stating: "Jesus killed Muhammad!"??? Terrible..
And then I get these e-mails telling me to "support our troops!"
When will we learn to LOVE??

I don't know if any of what I'm writing is making sense, I'd kind of adlibbing...

Blessings to all!
Brian

Thank you Brian for remembering me ( Lee )

of course I have to put in my  :2c:worth.

IMO Okay ???

WW said above, something I think all can agree on is that "no one is perfect", I have to disagree, and why is and answer to one of your prime Questions about 'is the bible stories true',

All Humankind reads the Word and gets their own meaning because All use their own understanding (not meaning bad here) just that the human mind uses it's own thought process to come to an understanding, The Brain.
This brain in humankind can be changed by an outside force we call God, But the in grain thought process is just that, IN Grained so deep that it is hard to listen to God's movings.

First thing: I am Perfect. because I AM IN Christ, Brain thought: my meaning of the "Bible" Perfect is being %100 and 10 % Whole IN God's Christ, and I AM . Now if others want to teach me how I alleglly sin, then I wont go there because I am not a sinner IN Christ. Yes I do things wrong every day that my country says is a law brake, speeding, lying, etc... but all those things are IN Christ too, because I am IN Christ.

So Brian, there is a lot to learn out there, my door of Christ is ten feet thick of wood, and I have knocked a hole so big in it, that there is no door now and either can go and come through, I've been knocking sense I believed the lie I was taught that all I have to do is except him as my lord and saviour and I would be saved, (June 30th 1987) and long before.

and for anyone who fights, I truely try to state my own understanding that this brain has learned in 48 years thus far.

Willi I did love your statement of the forbidden subject. even tho I tend to follow J.P.Eby's Limited free will thought. Did love your presentation, well thought out...


"I" know that 99.9% of even UR's don't agree with my thinking, and that is okay, I have not a single bad feeling towards anyone's thought Process.

God Will Provail, He will come out of us.  Lee

Hi Lee!
Glad to see you're here! I'd rather let you speak than speak for you-- but you're hard to reach when I need you!!  :laughing7:

Anywho,
yes, each mind gets things out of scripture a little differently.
What's interesting is that there are groups of people who are not "Christians" who believe strongly on some basic issues that many Christians struggle with.
For example, I see people in this world who are first and foremost for peace. Peace between races, peace for those condemned to death row, peace for the downtrodden, peace for nations which are advertised in America as "terrorist." These people want peace, and I think God is working through them. One group I particularly like is here: http://www.nkusa.org/
Now these are PACIFIST Jews who want to live in PEACE under Arab rule. AMEN!!

-I'd rather side with Muslims or Jews who seek peace (and I think most are that way, at least based on what I see in my personal experience) than with Christians who, for a doctrine, are ready to go at it tooth and nail.
In other words, not all those who say, "Lord, Lord" will enter the Kingdom, but those who bring forth the fruits thereof. We must look at the fruits while exhorting in LOVE.

Blessings,
Brian

Brian I sent you an email, check it Lee

willieH: Hi Italy... :hithere:

:wink2:  Your answer was fairly "long" for a "short" answer...  :laughing7:

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on December 01, 2009, 11:37:54 AM
WillieH:
(short answer to a long response:)

You are welcome to using few words, if that is your way, ...that's okay with me, however...

We each have our own approach!  I choose detailed answers, and my right to respond in DETAIL is every bit as fitting, as your choice to be BRIEF...  :dontknow:

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on December 01, 2009, 11:37:54 AMI think that when we read the scriptures we each decide which things are literal and which are symbolic. Yes, maybe indoctrination starts there.

I see this thinking as awry.  We do not "decide" anything about Scripture... Either God reveals it to us, or HE does not.  :nod:  If He is not involved, then the deductions that are garned shall be astray.

ALL Scripture is SPIRITUAL, for it arises from the MOUTH of GOD who is SPIRIT.  You can pick & choose (literal or symbolic) if you like, as for me... I shall consider that every WORD I read from the Almighty has MUCH more than just a SURFACE meaning that any NON-BELIEVER, which is UN-INVESTED of HEART... can surmise as TRUTH.  :dontknow:

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on December 01, 2009, 11:37:54 AMMaybe that's why I like the Psalms so much. The psalmist pours out his heart's desire to God, and there is understanding and dialogue.

At any rate, it's not who's right that matters. At least I personally don't think so.

I agree... There is only ONE who is "right" anyway, and that ONE, is GOD... and to whom HE reveals Himself.

What "matters" is that GOD's WILL shall be done in ALL THINGS.  And ALL THINGS include right and wrong.  It is intended that EVIL and WRONGDOING be exposed for what it ETERNALLY is... that being -- UNACCEPTABLE.  If no EVIL or WRONGDOING were to appear, than it is not EXPOSED.  :dontknow:

That does not mean I promote the practice of wrongdoing or evil... rather, I am pointing out that it would not exist or manifest at ALL, if God did not allow it to be manifest.

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on December 01, 2009, 11:37:54 AMI think love is more important than being right, and I don't think there's much doctrine in love.

You sound relatively inexperienced concerning life, brother Brian.  I am a parent of 3 and grandparent of 10... I can tell you from this LONG experience, that TEACHING (which is the meaning of the word DOCTRINE) is a GREAT part of LOVE... 

I LEARNED many things in my own childhood which were taught to me by my LOVING parents, and as life progressed, I took that DOCTRINE, and LOVINGLY TAUGHT my children the same things, as well as presently, and LOVINGLY TEACHING my grandchildren.

You are welcome to your own (over) simplification of this, reducing LOVE to a peaceful joining... However the Scriptures are those WORDS that TEACH one HOW to LIVE according to RIGHTEOUSNESS:

2 Tim 3:16-17 -- ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God and is PROFITABLE for DOCTRINE, for reproof, for correction, for INSTRUCTION in RIGHTEOUSNESS, that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto ALL GOOD works.

The PROFIT of the WORD is -- correction, reproof, doctrine, and instruction in righteousness!  :cloud9:

I do not see how any one of a spiritual mind can read those verses and discount the importance of DOCTRINE which IS, TEACHING.  That many RELIGIOUS ones insist upon STRICT and STIFFNECKED "religious" RULES -- instead of the pure guidelines found in the Scriptures, ...or that insist that they have ALL insight into those guidelines --- is that which produces the divisions we see... not the TEACHINGS within and by the Scriptures.

If one is truly aspiring to learn from the HOLY SPIRIT, the TRUTH of GOD, ...then one must be willing to lay his life before the TWO commandments that CHRIST noted as encompassing all... 

1st  -- Love GOD with ALL your heart, soul and mind, and the
2nd -- Love your neighbor as yourself.

If one LOVES one's neighbor (even those of his own household), and is unwilling to seek the RIGHTEOUSNESS within the Scripture which SHAPES and FORMS [creates] that LOVE, by ITS TEACHINGS -- John 8:32 -- the TRUTH of the WORD is that which CREATES FREEDOM... ("MAKES" you FREE)

Then one is left to one's own self erected "definition" of LOVE... which is INCOMPLETE and found OUTSIDE the instruction and guidance OF the SCRIPTURES.  :sigh:

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on December 01, 2009, 11:37:54 AMChurches will kick people out if they don't adhere to their set of doctrines.. no love there!
Yet at the same time, if someone wants to frequent a church group, cool. That's what they feel. The important thing is love.

:omg:  Tell me about it!  I spent 25 years in the system -- Mostly objecting to their "doctrines"... yet I have nothing but LOVE for those who are in those churches... 

That I (after suffering LONG), became unwilling to HEAR about HELL every other Sunday or ANNHILATION of men, on the Sabbath... or HEAR about the TRINITY, or HEAR about the DEVIL... or the FEAR which is often taught... does not remove the care that I still hold for the HEARTS that remain in that system.

Each of these (confused) "church" organizations believe themselves as privy to the "TRUTH"... and spend much time dissecting and criticizing the other versions... all the while, THEY are of, and IMMERSED IN, ...the very same confusion...

CHRIST noted that MANY [believers] would falter in this way -- Matt 7:22-23 -- as well as noting that TRUE faith would be so RARE as to hardly even be recognized as even present upon His return -- Luke 18:8 -- 

There are 2.5 to 3 BILLION Christian believers on earth!!! ...How could one possibly consider that this number could ever be known as "FEW"?  And how could this number be a literally, INOBSERVABLE presence?  :mshock:

Think about it...

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on December 01, 2009, 11:37:54 AMThe rest is so much doctrine, and I have a feeling that, at the moment that we are taken away from this place, love, hope and faith will be the only things we will be allowed to carry with us.

Again, this is just your "opinion" which has the potential of being correct... but the fact is that any "LOVE" you take out of here, shall be that which you have learned by the TEACHING of the HOLY SPIRIT -- 1 Cor 3:11-15

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on December 01, 2009, 11:37:54 AM"Did we love enough?" may be the question. (I know none of this isn't written in the Bible, so many will discount me here. That's ok.)

We shall LOVE, according to that which GOD has already declared of each of us... and in the amount HE has conveyed into our HEARTS...

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on December 01, 2009, 11:37:54 AMWe can never love enough. We could get lost in love. "Fools for love" we could be called.
But in the end, it may be the ONLY thing that will have mattered.
And we'll have time to improve as we move into the eternities!

FIRST -- Now you resort to speculation, bro!  -- GOD shall be ALL in ALL --- once ALL THINGS are subdued unto CHRIST -- 1 Cor 15:28

SECOND -- could you take a moment, and explain to me how you are able to PLURALIZE --- "ETERNITY"?  :laughing7:

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on December 01, 2009, 11:37:54 AMToday there's so much deception and lies about people of other countries. We have come to think that Iranians are children of the devil. But they're not. They're people who love and who need love, just like anyone else.

You use the word "WE", in part, invalidly my friend... I can speak only for myself... I do not consider ANY of humanity as other than the CHILDREN of the MOST HIGH, which are to be TESTIFIED in DUE TIME -- 1 Tim 2:6

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on December 01, 2009, 11:37:54 AMBut some always want to start wars! And we Americans buy into it everytime! THIS is a serious problem which could/can/will be won by LOVE. God's love, God's amazing love-power!
Did you know that there were American troops driving tanks around in Iraq with banners stating: "Jesus killed Muhammad!" ??? Terrible..

That is quite a BOLD statement brother... Upon what proof do you found this, Brian?

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on December 01, 2009, 11:37:54 AMAnd then I get these e-mails telling me to "support our troops!"
When will we learn to LOVE??

Have you ever SERVED your country Brian? :dunno: 

I have... I gave 3 years of my life during the Viet Nam war... If you have NOT given service to your country... then it is a bit out of line for you to condescend to those who ARE defending FREEDOM in the world, partly on YOUR BEHALF! :rolleye: 

And your quote above is likely repeating HEARSAY that you are "hearing" about them... Even then... THE ENTIRETY of the US Armed Forces is not about this type of crusading!!!

Shall you take the (supposed) act of one or a few INDESCRETIONARY persons and thereby determine ALL who wear the UNIFORM as INDESCRETIONARY?  :rolleye:

What if this is some FICTIONAL report?  :dontknow: Shall you remain against the Americans abroad which defend YOUR RIGHT to be FREE?

IMO, it would benefit your statements if you meditated upon them a bit more, before you spoke them, bro...

Hi WillieH!
First off, I want to say that I like you and your style of posting! I think you're the only one on this forum with so many colors and smileys and stuff, and I like it. It's just that if a post is very long I tend to skip through it, sometimes because I don't have time to read it all..  (I remember Mickel told me I had a "lazy eye.."  BTW, what ever happened to Mickel?? I miss him!  :bsad: )

I didn't know that you had served in Vietnam, nor that you have 10 grandkids! I certainly don't criticize or envy you-- who am I to judge you?? (After all, we each have our own plate to eat from!)
(I sure don't mind chatting about Vietnam, if you want to..: brian@ahigherway.net )

You wrote many things, all of which reflect how you teach/read/see the scriptures. And I'm interested in hearing your perspective. I think I even agree with you on many points.

When I started this thread my thoughts were on the POWER of God which has truly no limits, and His reasons for what He does which we cannot know. It seems that, when we say that "we know," it is then that we do not know. A paradox, I know..  If we say that we see, then we are blind. But there is truth in it.

I've studied a lot of different doctrines since I was born again/saved/regenerated/converted back in 1990. At least for me, I've studied a lot of viewpoints, all which seem plausible in their own way. Even UR, while to me quite believable, still doesn't mean that I couldn't believe in a place called hell. After all, God is God, man is man. What He decides to do, when to do it, how to do it, through whom to do it, I cannot say. It's HIS work, not mine. I cannot understand anything except that we can trust in Him and in His mercy, because He is faithful. "Even though He slay me, yet will I serve Him."

This post is too long..
In the end, again, I think that love is the only thing that will matter. I have seen that people believe what we do more than what we say. Either we did, or we didn't. That doesn't mean that I ignore doctrine. Love IS my doctrine!

Doctrines are the cart, not the horse. We are all learning, but loving is the most crucial.

Blessings to you!
Brian

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on December 02, 2009, 12:10:11 PM
That doesn't mean that I ignore doctrine. Love IS my doctrine!

Doctrines are the cart, not the horse. We are all learning, but loving is the most crucial.

Blessings to you!
Brian

Hi Brian,
Just to preface, I came back to the top of the post because I went long without meaning to.

So maybe the question isn't about doctrine VERSUS love, or distinguishable from it, or even beneath it, rather a difference between good doctrine and bad doctrine. The way I see it is that GOOD (holy) doctrine is not distinguishable from love in a way to where we would even need to qualified as being secondary to love.

Doctrine (even as it comes from the original Greek) simply means "teaching." So whatever you teach, or believe yourself, is doctrine. I think that word has become a dry theological word which is often thought of as being an intellectual's issue and not much intended for the compassionate heart: as if compassion comes first, then the the theology stuff. I got that kind of thing at my old church, where people didn't want to "discuss doctrine" because it seemed to them so left brained, dry, and to them void of Spirit.

However, if anyone believes ANYTHING regarding the scriptures, it is doctrine, and therefore if love is the "teaching" then love IS the doctrine (along with other very important things) none of which necessarily take a back seat to love, because "the teaching" of Christ is ALL ABOUT love.

But the problem with the "love first, doctrine second" thing is if one takes that as a way of saying the explicit teachings concerning the subjects the NT writers teach on, don't really matter as long as we all have a fuzzy feeling of love for eachother.

Galatians 1
8 But if ever we also, or a messenger out of heaven, should be bringing an evangel to you beside that which we bring to you, let him be anathema!
9 As we have declared before and at present I am saying again, if anyone is bringing you an evangel beside that which you accepted, let him be anathema!

Now, now if you read the whole of Galatians, Paul's main issue with them was with the fact that some people who believed in Christ, were teaching that physical circumcision, was not only part of the Gospel, but necessary to it, to make Christ of affect to them. That was their teaching, their doctrine. And, to make matters worse, they were spreading that teaching around and bringing people back into slavery to that which had no saving or life giving power.

Now Paul's stance on that COULD have been: "oh well, as long as we love eachother doctrine isn't a primary concern so who cares if people BELIEVE that works of the law concerning physical circumcision, and therefore do it to themselves and teach others to it in order to please Christ. Doctrine's like that, after all, are not as important as whether we love eachother."

That was not his stance though, obviously. I think that is because he knew that FALSE doctrine does not propagate love as TRUE doctrine does.

So, what is true doctrine, right? That's the issue. Paul was taught by God, and he VERBALLY was able to go to each gathering BEFORE he sent his letters and speak plainly to them and outline the teaching, and answer questions if need be, and his letters were meant to bolster the work he already did. We have these letters. We can't talk to the original authors, at least not yet. So we discuss it with eachother, and each person has what they believe. And for those in UR, it's like finding a treasure yet needing to decipher what is truly being said, rather than just trusting what we were taught in church. That's a trying road and one we are each on. All this is, of course, according to the providence of a sovereign God. And I think THAT is the point, and is WHY God has done things this way, so that we will have compassion with eachother as we ALL strive to know the good and true teaching of the Scripture.

These are just some thoughts, and sorry if the post was long.

 :cloud9: Amen Seth........ :thumbsup:

willieH: Hi Italy... :hithere:

Quote from: Cardinal on December 02, 2009, 07:49:43 PM
:cloud9: Amen Seth........ :thumbsup:

I 2nd that sis...  :cloud9: Amen Seth!  :thumbsup:

Thanks guys.  :HeartThrob:

willieH: Hi Brian... :hithere:

Thanks for your answer...  :cloud9:

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on December 02, 2009, 12:10:11 PM
I've studied a lot of different doctrines since I was born again/saved/regenerated/converted back in 1990. At least for me, I've studied a lot of viewpoints, all which seem plausible in their own way. Even UR, while to me quite believable, still doesn't mean that I couldn't believe in a place called hell.

Glad you brought this up... UR as opposed to "HELL"

FIRST -- The WORD itself instructs us to come REASON with God, which infers that He has given us the ability to "REASON" -- Isaiah 1:18 -- So to begin with, what REASON is found in GOD "eternally" punishing most of the WORLD "He so LOVED", and proceeded to give His SON, as a sacrifce to redeem it?

SECOND -- If CHRIST was sent to redeem the WORLD "God so LOVED", and He in fact does NOT redeem it... then it raises these questions (although there are many more) -- (1) How can He be called the Savior of it? -- 1 John 4:14 (2) How can VICTORY be asserted of His mission? (3) How can it be said that He "pleased" the Father?

THIRD -- Is "Hell" really an issue that is actually "in the WORD"?  Or is it an invention of the church?  For the doctrine itself is derived from mistranslation of 1 Hebrew and 3 Greek terms...  :dontknow:  If as Seth suggests, we take the WORDS God has given us, and search them, not just taking what "Pastor Joe" said on sunday... and seek for ourselves before God, the meanings in His WORD... then we place ourselves in position to be worthy of Him, answering our questions... However, if we make no effort of our own, God is more than REASONABLE to let us have the results of our own laziness toward Him...  Which is WHY there is so much confusion in Christianity and WHY it preaches the OPPOSITE of LOVE [hell] and the OPPOSITE of SUCCESS in CHRIST's mission.

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on December 02, 2009, 12:10:11 PMAfter all, God is God, man is man. What He decides to do, when to do it, how to do it, through whom to do it, I cannot say. It's HIS work, not mine. I cannot understand anything except that we can trust in Him and in His mercy, because He is faithful. "Even though He slay me, yet will I serve Him."

Not exactly sure where you are in age... but in time... a search reveals things.

I have taught my daughter something that has changed her perspective about her own search... She, at first thought I was NUTS when I disclosed my belief in the Salvation of ALL... and so I asked her these questions:

(1)  When you were 10yrs old, and you believed in JESUS... did you know as much about God at 10, as when you were 15?

(2)  When you were 15 and in your youth group and believing in JESUS... did you know as much about God at 15, as when you later became, 25?

(3)  Now that you are 30, would you say you know more about God now, then at 25?

(4)  I am 63... in 33 years when you arrive at MY AGE, ...if you keep on searching your Bible... do you think you shall know more about God than you do today?

Well... I made my point about TIME and SEARCHING...  and although she did not decide UR would eventually be believed by her, she was forced to examine the idea that TIME unfolds knowledge that one does not presently hold, and that it was in the realm of possibility that she might one day "see", what I have come to "see"...  :dontknow:

I wish the same to you dear friend... Give yourself TIME, and keep looking... in TIME, you shall find more than you can imagine at this point in TIME.

22And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, ...

....and he was not; for God took him.

--Gen 4


....for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. :cloud9:

--Heb 11

Quote from: Molly on December 02, 2009, 11:47:55 PM


22And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, ...

....and he was not; for God took him.

--Gen 4


....for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. :cloud9:

--Heb 11:5

Heb 11:13 --- These ALL DIED in Faith -- NOT -- having recieved the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth...

Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.



Enoch was a special case.  But I was thinking about your saying how much you could learn in 30 years of walking with God.  Imagine what you could learn in 300 years.




[Enoch] "walked" [with God...three hundred years]

H1980
הלך
hâlak
haw-lak'
Akin to H3212; a primitive root; to walk (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively): - (all) along, apace, behave (self), come, (on) continually, be conversant, depart, + be eased, enter, exercise (self), + follow, forth, forward, get, go (about, abroad, along, away, forward, on, out, up and down), + greater, grow, be wont to haunt, lead, march, X more and more, move (self), needs, on, pass (away), be at the point, quite, run (along), + send, speedily, spread, still, surely, + tale-bearer, + travel (-ler), walk (abroad, on, to and fro, up and down, to places), wander, wax, [way-] faring man, X be weak, whirl.

Quote from: Molly on December 03, 2009, 03:17:32 AM
Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.


Enoch was a special case.  But I was thinking about your saying how much you could learn in 30 years of walking with God.  Imagine what you could learn in 300 years.

Enoch was still found IN ADAM... and, a sinner is a sinner... and any and ALL descendents of ADAM -- DIE in him -- 1 Cor 15:22 -- Enoch was 7th FROM ADAM:  (1) Adam/ (2) Seth/ (3) Enos/ (4) Cainan/ (5) Mahalaleel/ (6) Jared/ (7) Enoch

God is completely and pefectly IMPARTIAL and is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS -- Acts 10:34 -- Rom 2:11 -- Prov 28:21 -- Gal 2:6 -- Eph 6:9 -- 2 Sam 14:14 -- Mark 12:14 -- Col 3:25 -- 2 Chron 19:7 -- Job 34:19

Quote from: Molly on December 03, 2009, 03:17:32 AM[Enoch]"walked" [with God...three hundred years]

H1980
הלך
hâlak
haw-lak'
Akin to H3212; a primitive root; to walk (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively): - (all) along, apace, behave (self), come, (on) continually, be conversant, depart, + be eased, enter, exercise (self), + follow, forth, forward, get, go (about, abroad, along, away, forward, on, out, up and down), + greater, grow, be wont to haunt, lead, march, X more and more, move (self), needs, on, pass (away), be at the point, quite, run (along), + send, speedily, spread, still, surely, + tale-bearer, + travel (-ler), walk (abroad, on, to and fro, up and down, to places), wander, wax, [way-] faring man, X be weak, whirl.

You are welcome to hold your view... but Scripture in many ways, contradicts this thinking...

As I noted, God is not PARTIAL to any man... and INSPIRED 10 Scriptures to found that statement (noted above)...

ALL these and more include Enoch:

(1)  JESUS CHRIST tasted death for EVERY MAN -- Heb 2:9
(2)  JESUS CHRIST is the SAVIOR of ALL MEN -- 1 Tim 2:6 -- 1 Tim 4:10
(3)  AS in ADAM ALL DIE -- 1 Cor 15:22
(4)  ALL men have an appointment to DIE -- Heb 9:27
(5)  Enoch is listed among those as dieing -- without having recieved the promises of FAITH -- Heb 11:5 ~~ 11:13
(6)  ALL have sinned and COME SHORT of the Glory of God -- Rom 3:23  

Though we are raised IN HIM, and "TRANSLATED" into His Kingdom NOW -- Col 1:13 -- we ALL, shall STILL meet our individual APPOINTMENT with DEATH...

Believe what you will, sister Molly... as for me... I shall believe the Scriptures... and in that belief -- endeavor to NOT contradict them.  Enoch "in heaven" is a contradiction of MANY Scriptures in many different ways... Besides, there is no verse that notes ENOCH is --- "in Heaven"...  :dontknow:  

Molly kind of proves my point. Here's another "peculiar" example, in Hebrews (7) talking about Melchisedec:

v3: Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. (Please excuse the bold, I know you can read...) :)

Heavy stuff.. (This Melchisedec dude is one I'd LOVE to meet!! And apparently he's still in the priesthood!)

Yet I cannot deny all the verses you mention, WillieH.

This is where I begin to say that to me, there do seem to be some apparent "contradictions." Now with this, I don't mean to say that I don't believe the Bible is accurate or God-inspired, because I do! Contradiction does not imply accuracy. (If it were a math text maybe so..!)
What it does imply is that it is not logical.
Love is another example of something not logical. It was not logical for Jesus to lay down His life. But He did, and that in love.

Today there are many, many denominations. These come from doctrinal differences. If we all walked in love (including myself!) then perhaps the Kingdom would come sooner!

So what do we do? We hold to the most principle aspects of our faith. Others take second place. Love vs. hate. Peace vs. war. Submission vs. oppression. Patience vs. impatience. When the rubber hits the road, we discover what we really believe in.

That's why I admire the Haredi Jews. They are so meek and submissive. They are faithful, they do not fight, and the basis of their Jewish faith is peace and love. I think they are very Christ-like (based on 90% of what I read about Jesus) and I wish all us "Christians" were like this! It's not that conflict would end, but that our faith would show more brightly!

Then there are the Zionists......  :sigh:


Blessings to all,
Brian

Quote from: Brianthere do seem to be some apparent "contradictions."

I don't think anything is being contradicted.  I think it's more a matter of we don't know the whole story.

For instance, we see the book of Jasher mentioned by our Bible.


Joshua 10:13
And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.


2 Samuel 1:18
(Also he bade them teach the children of Judah the use of the bow: behold, it is written in the book of Jasher.)



So I feel comfortable looking in the book of Jasher for more information about Enoch, because we are given very little information about him.  It's worth exploring, at least.

36 And when the kings returned they caused a census to be taken, in order to know the number of remaining men that went with Enoch; and it was upon the seventh day that Enoch ascended into heaven in a whirlwind, with horses and chariots of fire.

--Jasher 3

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/apo/jasher/3.htm



According to the book of Jasher, Enoch is taken into heaven the same way Elijah was!  :mshock:


[To be cont'd]


 

The complexity of the scriptures is also shown in this:
that even though there are verses in the NT that talk about "salvation by faith alone," for every one I find a verse somewhere where we will be judged by our WORKS. (ie, Jesus said that if we do commandments 1 and 2, we will see life! Or that the Kingdom will be taken from one and given to another who brings forth fruit of righteousness. Or Peter's explanation to Cornelius that "whosoever fears God and does good works are accepted by Him.)

So I see many points of view, about so many subjects!

Blessings,
Brian

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on December 03, 2009, 02:59:15 PM
The complexity of the scriptures is also shown in this:
that even though there are verses in the NT that talk about "salvation by faith alone," for every one I find a verse somewhere where we will be judged by our WORKS. (ie, Jesus said that if we do commandments 1 and 2, we will see life! Or that the Kingdom will be taken from one and given to another who brings forth fruit of righteousness. Or Peter's explanation to Cornelius that "whosoever fears God and does good works are accepted by Him.)

So I see many points of view, about so many subjects!

Blessings,
Brian

Again, it is a matter of interpretation.  James is talking about something called 'works' which we know from the meaning of the word is some kind of act.  He tells us faith without works is dead.  So then you might think I better run out and spend 30 hours a week in the soup kitchen so that I have works to prove my faith.

But here Paul tells us there is not only the dead faith described by James but dead works as well.


Hebrews 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God.


What might dead works be?  Could an example be the many rituals of the Pharisees who swallowed a camel but choked on a gnat?  Their heart was far from God.  Even though they spent all their daily hours doing 'works,'  Jesus tells them they are full of dead men's bones.

Paul tells us forget all of that and let us go on to perfection.  What is perfection?  

[unto] "perfection"
G5047
τελειότης
teleiotēs
tel-i-ot'-ace
From G5046; (the state) completeness (mentally or morally): - perfection (-ness).


So it's a state of completeness.  And what makes us complete?

John 17:23
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.



"made perfect"

G5048
τελειόω
teleioō
tel-i-o'-o
From G5046; to complete, that is, (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character): - consecrate, finish, fulfil, (make) perfect.



Will there then be any question that everything we say, do, any action we take, will therefore be pleasing to God and the living works of a living faith?  :bigGrin:

Molly,
Personally, I don't know which works are "dead" and which aren't. It's not really an issue to me.
I have faith (given to me by God).
And I do works (like soup kitchens). (I don't do them to "prove" anything, although the world does judge me by them and I know that this is important in my witness.)
And I'm happy!

Others think that all they need is their faith. That's between them and God.
Personally, I feel called to action, and I do where I can.

Don't know if that makes any sense..

Blessings,
Brian

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on December 03, 2009, 08:18:38 PM
Molly,
Personally, I don't know which works are "dead" and which aren't. It's not really an issue to me.
I have faith (given to me by God).
And I do works (like soup kitchens). (I don't do them to "prove" anything, although the world does judge me by them and I know that this is important in my witness.)
And I'm happy!

To me that is the answer. Dead works are those done by the law, which are our OWN works, and the works you just described are "good works" which are by faith and sanctification of the Spirit.

QuoteOthers think that all they need is their faith. That's between them and God.
Personally, I feel called to action, and I do where I can.

It's not just a personal call, EVERY Christian is called to action. And that action is not just working in soup kitchens (which is GREAT stuff) but even bringing the word of truth is a good work. Anything we do according to the sanctification according to him who both wills and works within us according to HIS pleasure is a good work and NOT a work of the law, thereby saving us from the conversation we once had, in our minds and actions, with sin.

To get some true answers a good book to check  is ,
How to Scripturally Study the Scriptures  at Concordant Publishing Concern

and yes "there" "you have to pay for it"

Unbelievable well of Knowledge, it answers all the Questions at hand on this thread.

Lee

willieH: Hi Brian...  :HeartThrob:

I prepared a whole answer for you and lost it, so here goes try #2!  :sigh:

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on December 03, 2009, 12:30:55 PM
Molly kind of proves my point. Here's another "peculiar" example, in Hebrews (7) talking about Melchisedec:

v3: Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. (Please excuse the bold, I know you can read...) :)

Heavy stuff.. (This Melchisedec dude is one I'd LOVE to meet!! And apparently he's still in the priesthood!)

There is no indication that Melchisidec was a MAN ("dude")...

Melchisidec is a manifestation of GOD Brian... for CHRIST is not patterned after ANY MAN -- Heb 5:6 -- MAN "does for himself"  -- CHRIST "did for GOD"
CHRIST is completely UNCHANGING -- Heb 13:8 -- does NOTHING for himself -- John 5:19   -- and proceeds AS IS, from the mouth of GOD, who also is UNCHANGING -- Mal 3:6 -- So if any portion of CHRIST is deduced ("after" Melchisidec) -- then Melchisidec is a manifestation of YHVH God as well...

Melchisidec is noted as the KING of PEACE -- Heb 7:2 -- NO [sinful] "MAN" can be known as the KING of PEACE... this is a title reserved for GOD... :nod: -- Rom 15:33 -- Phil 4:9 -- Heb 13:20

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on December 03, 2009, 12:30:55 PMYet I cannot deny all the verses you mention, WillieH.

This is where I begin to say that to me, there do seem to be some apparent "contradictions." Now with this, I don't mean to say that I don't believe the Bible is accurate or God-inspired, because I do! Contradiction does not imply accuracy. (If it were a math text maybe so..!)

Contradiction is not of the Scriptures... only of the uninspired VIEW of them.  If we see them from an UNREVEALED (distorted/literal) perspective, then they shall appear DISTORTED [contradictory] to us as we read them in the LITERAL. 

However, when REVELATION comes from above... That which once appeared to us as DISTORTED [contradictory] -- making NO "sense" (literally), ...then appears as PERFECT (spiritually) and makes PERFECT [harmonious] "sense". :nod:

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on December 03, 2009, 12:30:55 PMWhat it does imply is that it is not logical.
Love is another example of something not logical. It was not logical for Jesus to lay down His life. But He did, and that in love.

Why would you consider the doings of LOVE, "illogical"?  No offense bro, ...but only a view centered in SELF would note the acts of UNSELFISHNESS [LOVE] as "illogical"...  :dontknow:

LOVE "does for others" -- SELF "does for SELF"...  :dontknow:

That which is centered in SELFISHNESS, takes care of SELF, then if there is anything left over, ...MIGHT or MIGHT NOT (but probably WON'T), ...share with, or do for others.

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on December 03, 2009, 12:30:55 PMToday there are many, many denominations. These come from doctrinal differences. If we all walked in love (including myself!) then perhaps the Kingdom would come sooner!

The Kingdom shall not come  :clock:  ONE MOMENT sooner or ONE MOMENT later, than is ALREADY determined by the Father.  For the MOMENT of CHRIST's return is KNOWN only by YHVH -- Matt 24:36 -- and His [perfect] KNOWLEDGE is UNCHANGING. (certainly NOT dependent upon what we DO or don't DO)

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on December 03, 2009, 12:30:55 PMSo what do we do? We hold to the most principle aspects of our faith. Others take second place. Love vs. hate. Peace vs. war. Submission vs. oppression. Patience vs. impatience. When the rubber hits the road, we discover what we really believe in.

That's why I admire the Haredi Jews. They are so meek and submissive. They are faithful, they do not fight, and the basis of their Jewish faith is peace and love. I think they are very Christ-like (based on 90% of what I read about Jesus) and I wish all us "Christians" were like this! It's not that conflict would end, but that our faith would show more brightly!

I guess then, it starts with YOU, Brian... You cannot control another, but you CAN control yourself.  So if you wish PEACE to be in the world, begin with yourself, then all who observe your PEACE, shall find it portrayed before them BY YOU, and hopefully it will influence all those you encounter, to be PEACEFUL as well...  :cloud9:  At the very least, ...YOU shall find PEACE... and be conveying it to others...

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on December 03, 2009, 12:30:55 PMThen there are the Zionists......  :sigh:

Blessings to all,
Brian

Why not begin, by asking yourself -- what "PEACE" was suggested in that statement, Brian?  :JCThink:

:Peace:

Quote from: willieHMelchisidec is noted as the KING of PEACE -- Heb 7:2 -- NO [sinful] "MAN" can be known as the KING of PEACE... this is a title reserved for GOD...  -- Rom 15:33 -- Phil 4:9 -- Heb 13:20

:thumbsup:

And, "King of righteousness."


"Melchizedek"
H4442
מלכּי־צדק
malkîy-tsedeq
mal-kee-tseh'-dek
From H4428 and H6664; king of right; Malki-Tsedek, an early king in Palestine: - Melchizedek.



H4428
מלך
melek
meh'-lek
From H4427; a king: - king, royal.



H6664
צדק
tsedeq
tseh'-dek
From H6663; the right (natural, moral or legal); also (abstractly) equity or (figuratively) prosperity: -  X even, (X that which is altogether) just (-ice), ([un-]) right (-eous) (cause, -ly, -ness).


Jeremiah 23:6
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

WillieH:
Your posts are more detailed than mine are; please forgive me for passing over some of what you responded. It's not that it's not of interest, it's just my tendency to look at what I think is more important first.

The Zionists want their own way, not God's. They are even willing to kill for it, and what's more, they "sell it" as being God's will.
Peace is the way they haven't considered yet. But some Jews (ie Haredi Jews) are speaking out and want others to know that Zionism is of the flesh, not of God.
I used to think that all Jews supported the violence in the ME. Now I see that there are some who say that only God will liberate Israel, and that the Jews must wait and live in peace with others. This, to me, is very Christ-like.

America supports Zionism much more than the peace that the Haredim speak of. I can say this because I grew up in America hearing only about violence regarding the State of Israel.
Now I know that the Jews who believe in and are faithful to the Torah want to live in peace with the Arabs (as they have always done) and want the State of Israel to be peacefully dismantled.
Thanks to Internet, we can learn more than what we used to hear only on TV!

I consider love to be illogical in the sense that we are called to love, help and give to those who hate us. That is not considered "logical."
Many people cannot believe that God would "just forgive sinners" without their asking. But I don't think love looks at the scorecard before acting.

As for contradictions in scripture, and how soon the Kingdom will come, I cannot say that I know. What I DO know is that there are many denominations, and each one, if asked, will tell you that THEIR interpretation is correct. 1,000 denominations, 1,000 interpretations. ALL correct. ???
So this is where I say that, what I sense today, is that the only things that we will be able to hold on to when we pass from this world, is LOVE, faith, hope (in God's mercy!). The rest will fall into place.
Paul was sure of what he taught. But we sure have made a mess of it as time has gone by!

1,000 denominations, 1,000 "right" answers.
But LOVE rises up above it all.

Blessings,
Brian

willieH: Hi Brian...  :cloud9:

Thanks for your answer bro...  :icon_king:

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on December 03, 2009, 11:47:25 PM
WillieH:
Your posts are more detailed than mine are; please forgive me for passing over some of what you responded. It's not that it's not of interest, it's just my tendency to look at what I think is more important first.

That is okay my friend, you have the right to answer as you do, no criticisms from me. I only ask that if you should ASK questions and expect answers to them, that you answer when ASKED.  :dontknow:

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on December 03, 2009, 11:47:25 PMThe Zionists want their own way, not God's. They are even willing to kill for it, and what's more, they "sell it" as being God's will.

To be honest, I have not researched into this movement (which appears to be largely political as well as "religious")... supportive of the nation of Israel, and them regaining in full, the land given them by God.  Which is explained from an obviously secular standpoint here (as it mentions "YHVH" as if He were some imagined entity):

http://www.serendipity.li/zionism.htm

A secular position (such as "Serendipity" appears to be), can only define religion from a secular viewpoint... and thinks itself as INOBJECTIVE... when it is NOT.  This is just like a VEGETARIAN critcizing the CARNIVORE, for the food he eats, or vice-versa... :rolleye:

Without going into "sovereignty"... NOTHING that occurs, is outside of "GOD's Will", for if a given thing exists, then the Creator is found sustaining the right to that existence.  Scripture notes that GOD is working ALL THINGS -- Eph 1:11 -- that this statement is NOT believed, even by "followers", does not negate what it SAYS.

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on December 03, 2009, 11:47:25 PMPeace is the way they haven't considered yet. But some Jews (ie Haredi Jews) are speaking out and want others to know that Zionism is of the flesh, not of God.

You are taking your own observation of these, and determining what they are.  We do not have the right to JUDGE others as CHRIST noted:  Matt 7:1 -- so it is best to avoid making such statements...

As I noted above, GOD is working ALL THINGS according to HIS WILL... so ALL THINGS that occur, have a place IN that "will", as they are manifest concerning HIS PURPOSE, which, concerning the "BIG PICTURE", is beyond our "sight" to "see"...  :dontknow:

ALL THINGS are being WORKED by God bro... Eph 1:11 -- that we, in our individual outlooks and viewpoints do not "see" this, does not mean it is not so.  Again, at the risk of using the word "sovereignty", men (for the most part) cannot wrap themselves around the FACT that GOD is involved in the manifestation of ALL THINGS, and is intentioned that they BE as they occur.

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on December 03, 2009, 11:47:25 PMI used to think that all Jews supported the violence in the ME. Now I see that there are some who say that only God will liberate Israel, and that the Jews must wait and live in peace with others. This, to me, is very Christ-like.

CHRIST plainly stated that "His coming" was not to send PEACE into the world, rather to send a SWORD... The SWORD is that which DIVIDES the TRUTH from LIES.  In doing so, there shall be FERVENT oppositions that arise as it extends further and further into time.

Even in Christianity... the DIVISIONS and GAPS grow larger (and will continue to do so) as time unfolds.

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on December 03, 2009, 11:47:25 PMAmerica supports Zionism much more than the peace that the Haredim speak of. I can say this because I grew up in America hearing only about violence regarding the State of Israel.

No man or entity OF MAN, shall bring PEACE to Israel or anyone else... GOD alone shall affect their captivity (part of which is blindness) -- Jer 29:14 -- and/or freedom from it, for it is HE which has driven MEN into Captivity...  :dontknow:

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on December 03, 2009, 11:47:25 PMNow I know that the Jews who believe in and are faithful to the Torah want to live in peace with the Arabs (as they have always done) and want the State of Israel to be peacefully dismantled.
Thanks to Internet, we can learn more than what we used to hear only on TV!

Instead of deciding what the "state of Israel" should be, ...why not leave it in God's hands to decide?  You and I cannot do anything about how politicians deal with world affairs, so why let it be an existent trauma in our lives which we cannot affect?  I believe it is best to let it be known to God you have concern for these things, and leave it to HIM to resolve them.

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on December 03, 2009, 11:47:25 PMI consider love to be illogical in the sense that we are called to love, help and give to those who hate us. That is not considered "logical."

Again, I disagree... to say LOVE is illogical is to say GOD is illogical, for -- GOD is LOVE -- 1 John 4:8

LOVE finds a way to correct that which is gone astray, not DESTROY it.  LOVE is the healing element of the DISEASE of being LOST.

LOVE is the MOST LOGICAL thing in existence.

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on December 03, 2009, 11:47:25 PMMany people cannot believe that God would "just forgive sinners" without their asking. But I don't think love looks at the scorecard before acting.

Well said!  :thumbsup:

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on December 03, 2009, 11:47:25 PMAs for contradictions in scripture, and how soon the Kingdom will come, I cannot say that I know. What I DO know is that there are many denominations, and each one, if asked, will tell you that THEIR interpretation is correct. 1,000 denominations, 1,000 interpretations. ALL correct. ???

In erecting these "denominations", all these men and women set themselves and their "observations" of Scripture, as the MEASURE, with which to measure all others... How self-centered is that?  :laughing7:

When one truly seeks GOD, and discovers WHO and WHAT -- HE IS -- then one is humbled to the point of nothingness... and KNOWS one thing... that comparitively he KNOWS NOTHING.   The amount of SPACE we "occupy" in the Universe, ...is relative to WHAT we THINK we "know", as compared to what is available to KNOW...  So because our "knowledge" is so miniscule in content... How can we possibly think we are ABLE to deduce another human being's "ETERNAL" position?

In my 33 years of study, and 64 years of life within the SCHOOLS of LIFE and the WORD of GOD... I have found that, DAILY there is ALWAYS much to LEARN, and there shall ALWAYS WILL BE MUCH to LEARN...

So the question I must really ASK myself is... am I WILLING to LEARN?  Not -- have I NOW,  :heat: finally arrived upon the ABILITY and WISDOM to JUDGE others?  :JCThink:

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on December 03, 2009, 11:47:25 PMSo this is where I say that, what I sense today, is that the only things that we will be able to hold on to when we pass from this world, is LOVE, faith, hope (in God's mercy!). The rest will fall into place.

Again, well said Brian...  :cloud9:  If we take this stance, we take the stance of PEACE, and TRUST -- knowing that GOD is IN CONTROL of it all...

Quote from: whyiloveitaly on December 03, 2009, 11:47:25 PMPaul was sure of what he taught. But we sure have made a mess of it as time has gone by!

PAUL did a good job of "messing things up" himself. -- read Rom 7 -- He was a man, just as are we... We must be careful not to "credit" PAUL with teaching... we must "credit" CHRIST, who TAUGHT PAUL, what to TEACH.

:Peace:

Repentance from dead works and faith toward God are works of a sort.  Some judgments in my favor are for things I do NOT do.  Various Scriptures that superficially seem contradictory, when the connecting thoughts or a higher point of view are revealed are found in agreement.

To say Jesus alone "possesses" immortality as His own possession does not mean He is incapable of imparting it in the ways and to the extent He determines.  Like "the song of the 144,00 which no man can learn" doesn't mean no one else can sing along.  Possessed by the Holy Spirit others may take part; but, I think it is talking about immortality.  No one not immortal can learn immortality; so, only immortals can learn and know to sing the song of incorruptible and deathless life, though, again, some may sing along who are yet mortal because of possession by the Spirit of God.

Concerning Melchizedek it is written (loc.cit., Hob 7:8, CLT) "...of whom it is attested that he is living."  The author of Hebrews is saying that at the time he is writing Hebrews Melchizedek is reliably attested to as still being alive.  I will add that he probably is still praying in Jerusalem right now.

Come on!  Grasp that we are being taken into GOD!  We are to share with Him His own person, be "partakers of the Divine nature"..."we are His body, of His flesh and of His bone." God Himself said, "I called you all Elohim, all of you, sons of El Elyon."  Jesus quoted that Psalm saying "He called them Gods..." Life, immortality, incorruptible life and all manner of other blessings are manifest from God to His own.  Contriving certain phrases of Scripture to take all that away is very unwise indeed!  Faced with difficulties comparing Scripture with Scripture, we need to seek for answers reasoning according to the nature of the One with Whom we have to do, including the overflowing abundance of good things that is so true to Him, what He is like.

 :cloud9: :thumbsup:

WillieH:
If I have not answered any of your questions, I do apologize. Please ask and I promise I will answer!
I know that, since you have been directly involved in the Vietnam war, that you understand that people DO get involved in world matters, especially when we feel particularly strong about them. The conflict in the ME is of particular interest to me because I read a lot of the Jews sacred documents! One of the 10 commandments is "thou shalt not kill" and yet I see Jews killing their fellow man, so I am in some way, concerned. (I also like to understand the Jews better, because God made them, just like He made you and me!)

In addition, I have read from several sources that seem to agree that Zionism (the source of the conflict) is supported mostly by CHRISTIANS. And that, evangelical/fundamental types. So to me, it's almost like having the mafia in your own home. And so I feel even more compelled to speak against it, especially because if I tell someone I'm a Christian I am often lumped into that group.

I too didn't know much about the ME until recently (except for the little I heard on TV all my life). And I agree that God will work all things according to His hand.
And I feel His hand leading me into addressing this issue (ME conflict) as well.

Thank you for the serendipity link. I think I'll be checking it out more in the future. That doesn't mean that I take it as a "perfect" source, just one of many with which to compare the facts.
If we have been given the mind of Christ, shouldn't we use it? And especially to help our neighbors in conflict, who don't yet know the love of God?

Blessings,
Brian