new paper on leaving church doctrine carnality behind

[Seth]

I think there's reconciliation being God making peace with man, by way of Christ's his sacrifice, and his availablity to man to repent and be saved. Then, there is reconciliation of man back to God, by making peace with God in OUR minds, and there is also the reconcilation in the doing away of the separation of man and God, making us one with him through the Spirit and faith. So even in the study of reconciliation you find several layers to it.

[eaglesway]

Yes, we can look at those ideas, thanks  :thumbsup:

Interesting points and questions raised.  A few thoughts;  the scriptures say some the devil as their father, and that not all know God (some are "not of the faith" per Paul).  In fact, many are enemies of God. 

As far as Jesus' death benefiting all...I believe it opened the door to Life, but not all are given that Life in this age.  I don't know why God chose that as His plan, and we might prefer or desire it some other way.  But as I understand, that's what the scriptures declare.  The "elect" in this age, through no worth of their own but of God's mercy, and then the rest enter the Door into Life later, in the next age.

I believe that's why believers in this age are given the word of reconciliation.  The scriptures show how that happens.

Romans 10:13,14,15 ..whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.  How can people have faith in the Lord and ask him to save them, if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear, unless someone tells them? 15 And how can anyone tell them unless they are sent? The Scriptures say beautiful are the feet of those coming to preach the good news.

As one who, like Bushy, also believes that the Father accomplished salvation, forgiveness of sin, and reconciliation through his Son, not potentially, but in actuality, like James, I also believe that not all are of the faith, some are children of the wicked one, and that not all know God.

The accomplishment of those things is the very motivation behind my sharing this good news with others, because not only did God design the result (salvation, forgiveness, reconciliation) but also the means to that end (sending believers to the unbeliever that they may hear and believe and be saved, forgiven, and reconciled).

It truly is in how one understands these various concepts.

Ronen

I dont disagree with anything you said there on the face of it Ronen. I noticed you said, "sending believers to unbelievers that they may hear and be saved, forgiven, healed. That is the process as I see it- altho God also sovereignly reveals Jesus as well(he did with me)

I believe all have already been forgiven, but no one is saved until they are connected to the Vine by grace through faith. IMO, forgiveness was accomplished at the cross for all. "It is finished". All will be gathered into one in Christ Jesus(Eph 1). As they are gathered into one they are saved. "If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me." "Behold I am making all things new."

As I see it, salvation comes when that reservoir of life is accessed through conscious spiritual connection to the Vine. As long as one abides in the vine they have been saved, are being saved, and will be saved by the one who was and is and is to come.

Having been forgiven is a blessing in itself, like the rain that falls on the just and the unjust. Paul spoke of this in Acts 17.

27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 'For in him we live and move and have our being........30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

Having been saved is a completed connection to the Vine, a conscious connection to Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord by grace through faith, and as you said Ronen, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Col 1:21Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

This is the gospel you have heard.... but once you were alienated from God.....NOT alienated BY God. We are the source of alienation. Jesus's spread His arms wide on that cross to the whole cosmos and every being in it.

1 Cor 15:47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

As Paul said neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is anything but a new creation. We are in the first man or we are in the second man. Being in the second man is salvation, Christ in you the hope of glory.

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he "has put everything under his feet."Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Everyone in Adam is still dying, every one in Christ has passed from death unto life. When the last enemy is reconciled, gathered in, alienation exchanged for adoration- God will be all in all.

This is being accomplished through the dispensation of the fulness of times- as I see it.

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

Sometimes we forget that Eph 2 is just a few sentences from Ephesians 1:9-11 and in the same context of the gathering together of all into one in Christ.

Those of us who have been gathered into one in Christ have been seated with Christ in the heavenly realms. Experiencing the reality of that is what progressive salvation and sanctification are about- which I see as summed up in Eph 3- "rooted and grounded in love...filled up unto all the fulness of God- then Eph 4, speaking the truth in love and becoming mature ministers of reconciliation to the world and of edification to the body.

To me- begun in this age- completed in the ages to come.

Patinak, I believe this response works for your question to me as far as what my thoughts are as well. No one is excluded from the plan, but all are not yet gathered into it, which is the kingdom of God.

[jabcat]

\ It might be handy for you moderators to have them all in one place so that you could even PM the newbies and say, "please take a look at this discussion and see if it answers your question."

This happens in other forums all the time where they say "please make sure to check if your question has been answered elsewhere before asking."

We'll look at the suggestions in more detail, thanks.

One reason the above hasn't happened here is, we're in large part here for newbies, those coming in seeking, and don't want to discourage them from asking questions, discussing, reasoning with us on things they come in wondering about.  So although the loops of old topics coming up (but from new people) can serve to trigger all of us old-timers bringing up all the things again we've already hashed out (or should have  :laugh2:) we just don't want to shut down someone coming in looking for answers to some basics they may be beginning to sort out.  It's a rock and hard place, double-edged sword.  So we'll have to really consider how to do this while maintaining an open environment for seekers without either shutting them down on one hand, or deluging them with "foolish arguments" on the other.     :Chinscratch: :search:

[Seth]

Yeah you wouldn't want to shut anyone down. I tend to provide a link as a suggestion.