Lucifer fact or fiction ?

[Beloved Servant]

Not this thread, Micah.
The thread titled "The Bottomless Pit."

[WhiteWings]

^TVMIsa 14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!


Morning
Qere Readings

In the Hebrew Bible,  the scribes did not alter any text they felt had been copied incorrectly. Rather they noted in the margin what they thought the written text should be. The written variation is called a kethiv and the marginal note is called the qere. Where the translators of the Authorised Version followed the kethiv reading rather than the qere,  we indicate the qere reading by the number 08676. For example,  in De 19:6  "blood" is coded as  [H1818] 08676  [H5315]. The translators followed the kethiv reading that has Strong's number  [H1818],  which means "blood",  but the qere reading is Strong's number  [H5315],  which means "life".

Kethiv meaning:
שׁחר
shachar
BDB Definition:
1) dawn
1a) dawn
1b) at dawn (as adverb)
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from H7836
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2369a

Qere meaning:
ילל
yâlal
BDB Definition:
1) (Hiphil) to howl, wail, make a howling
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 868

Stem -Hiphil    See [H8818]
Mood -Imperative    See [H8810]
Count-731

Hiphil

a) Hiphil usually expresses the "causative" action of Qal-See [H8851]

Qal                Hiphil
He ate             he caused to eat,  he fed
He came            he caused to come,  he brought
He reigned         he made king,  he crowned

b) Hiphil is often used to form verbs from nouns and adjectives.

Noun or Adjective  Hiphil

ear                to listen (lend an ear)
far                to remove oneself,  put far away

c) Some "simple" verbs are found in Hiphil.

to cast,  to destroy,  to get up early,  to explain,  to tell

The form accounts for 13.3% of the verbs parsed.

Imperative

This verb class indicates an order or a command.
Go up to the city.
Wash yourself.

[WhiteWings]

WW ...this is a serious question .Where do you guys get your knowledge about words and languages that were spoken like 3000 years ago ?Not anything against this ..infact i just want to have access to such knowledge aswell ,but where can it be attained ?

To the topic : It will be interesting if i could make some searches of this kind .This might reveal differencies between the translations .There might be differencies ,but what counts are the things that are in common and have no differencies .This might lead to some discoveries .

I don't have that knowledge. But I collect studies/knowledge of others. When I think it's relavant I just cut and paste it on this forum.
A great start, for me at least, is using some electonic lexicon. Either a website or a free program like  theWord. Check the second link in my signature for a list to get you started.
The you can check the work of the author of that list. Ray Smith http://www.bibletruths.com/
Just take every verse listed and use software to "look below" the English word to find the Greek/Hebrew. That may sound difficult but actually it's very easy. You just read a KJV on your screen. Each word can be clicked and the program automaticly opens a lexicon. Depending on the software more things are possible.
For example if I Shift+click on the Hebrew word the software gives me a list of all verses containing that Hebrew word.

If you ask me: Get theWord as  soon as you can. You will be up and running withing 30 minutes. As for the articles and books.... That takes many many hours to read. Personally I have a electronic notebook that serves as my memory.
If there is a power outage my knowledge is out too  :icon_jokercolor:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: WW,  :thumbsup: to the tree......and great advice for our newbie....... :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: WW,  :thumbsup: to the tree......and great advice for our newbie....... :thumbsup:

Just curious...... what do you see in that tree/picture?
I tried to put in various Biblical teachings. Or just one because afterall it's one big teaching.

/EDIT
SonicSpeed if you need help with setting up the software on that page ask me (in that thread)
Right now the link seems to be dead. Will be fixed soon I hope.

[Beloved Servant]

no roots = no life = no leaves to heal the nations.

[WhiteWings]

Roots is one of the answers.
Leaves to heal the nations also but I never thought of that myself.... :sigh:

[Beloved Servant]

WhiteWings,
Whose alphabet is that?
It does not look Semitic, Hebrew, Egyptian, Phoenician or Greek.

[Molly]

Origen 185-254 A.D.
       
       Origen Adamantius was an early Christian scholar, theologian, and one of the most distinguished of the early fathers of the Christian Church. According to tradition, he is held to have been an Egyptian who taught in Alexandria, reviving the Catechetical School of Alexandria where Clement of Alexandria had taught.
       
       Using his knowledge of Hebrew, he produced a corrected Septuagint. He wrote commentaries on most of the books of the Bible. In De principiis (On First Principles), he articulated one of the first philosophical expositions of Christian doctrine.

Origen on Satan

This opinion, however, is held by most, that the devil was an angel, and that, having become an apostate, he induced as many of the angels as possible to fall away with himself, and these up to the present time are called his angels.


http://christian-quotes.ochristian.com/Origen-Quotes/


Tertullian on Satan


"By the devil, of course, to whom pertain those wiles which pervert the truth, and who, by the mystic rites of his
idols, vies even with the essential portions of the sacraments of God. He, too, baptizes some-that is, his own
believers and faithful followers he promises the putting away of sins by a layer (of his own). And if my memory
still serves me, Mithras there, (in the kingdom of Satan,) sets his marks on the foreheads of his soldiers,
celebrates also the oblation of bread, and introduces an image of a resurrection, and before a sword wreathes a
crown." Chapter 40 (XL)


"They cheat themselves with waters which are widowed. For washing is the channel through which they are
initiated into some sacred rites of some notorious Isis or Mithras... We recognise here also the zeal of the devil
rivalling the things of God, while we find him, too, practising baptism in his subjects. What similarity is there? The
unclean cleanses! The ruiner sets free! The damned absolves! He will, forsooth, destroy his own work, by
washing away the sins which himself inspires! These (remarks) have been set down by way of testimony against
such as reject the faith. If they put no trust in the things of God, the spurious imitations of which, in the case of
God's rival, they do trust in. Are there not other cases too, in which, without any sacrament, unclean spirits brood
on waters, in spurious imitation of that brooding of the Divine Spirit in the very beginning?" On Baptism Chapter 5



http://www.thedevineevidence.com/christian_quotes_tertullian.html



If we fight the Lord's battles merely by duplicating the way the world does its work, we are like little boys playing with wooden swords pretending they are in the battle while their big brothers are away in some distant bloody land.
Francis Schaeffer
Death in the City (Downers Grove, InterVarsity Press: 1969)



7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

--Rev 12


There is a war going on. All talk of a Christian's right to live luxuriously "as a child of the King" in this atmosphere sounds hollow -- especially since the King himself is stripped for battle.
John Piper



1 Peter 1:13
Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

[WhiteWings]

WhiteWings,
Whose alphabet is that?
It does not look Semitic, Hebrew, Egyptian, Phoenician or Greek.

David,
To my best knowledge it's the very first Hebrew alphabet. Even before the paleo-Hebrew in my previous avatar.
It seems to be the alpabet all (in that region) are derived from.
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/14_ahrcfonts.html
The fonts can be downloaded. I used Early Semitic in my avatar.

Now just let's hope my spelling is correct and I didn't wrote weird things in my avatar :laughing7:

PS there is also a much larger list that includes Phoenician and Egyptian. It's nice to see how the symbols change.
There is also a siet that show archeological pieces of paker and clay tablets with words in various alphabets on it.
Or should I say AlefBeths  :winkgrin:

[Molly]

Language gave man both the potential  [consciously and unconsciously] for good and evil, and the potential to talk one on one with his righteous LORD.


Genesis 46:2
And God spake unto Israel in the visions of the night, and said, Jacob, Jacob. And he said, Here am I.

[Molly]

6And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

--Gen 4



"at the door"
H6607
פּתח
pethach
peh'-thakh
From H6605; an opening (literally), that is, door (gate) or entrance way: - door, entering (in), entrance (-ry), gate, opening, place.

H6605
פּתח
pâthach
paw-thakh'
A primitive root; to open wide (literally or figuratively); specifically to loosen, begin, plough, carve: - appear, break forth, draw (out), let go free, (en-) grave (-n), loose (self), (be, beset) open (-ing), put off, ungird, unstop, have vent.

"DOOR"
dor: Most commonly the rendering of Hebrew pethach, "doorway," deleth, "door" proper (the two distinguished in Gen 19:6), or of Greek thura, which represents both meanings. The door proper was usually of wood, frequently sheeted with metal, sometimes of one slab of stone, as shown in excavations in the Hauran. It turned on pivots (the "hinges" of Prov 26:14) working in sockets above and below, and was provided with a bolt (2 Sam 13:17) or with lock and key (Jdg 3:23). The doorway was enclosed by the stone threshold (1 Ki 14:17), the two doorposts on either side, and the lintel above (Ex 12:7). Doors were frequently two-leaved, and folding ones are mentioned in connection with the temple (1 Ki 6:34). Where "door" is used in connectionwith city gates (Neh 3:1 ff) it refers to the door proper which swings on its hinges as distinguished from the whole structure. The custom of fastening to the doorposts small cases containing a parchment inscribed with the words of Dt 6:4-9; 11:13-21 had its origin in the command there given.
See also GATE; HOUSE.
Figurative: (1) Christ is "the door" into the gospel ministry (Jn 10:1,2,7); ministers must receive their authority from Him, and exercise it in His spirit. (2) `Through faith in Him also both shepherds and sheep enter into the kingdom of God (Jn 10:9), and find all their spiritual needs supplied.' (3) The figure in Rev 3:20 is expressive of Christ's patient, persistent and affectionate appeal to men. (4) Elsewhere also of opportunity (Mt 25:10; Acts 14:27; 1 Cor 16:9; 2 Cor 2:12; Rev 3:8). (5) Of freedom and power (Col 4:3).
See also ACHOR; SHEPHERD.


http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/D/DOOR/


Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

[WhiteWings]

Lucifer is a fact. Millions are sold each day :winkgrin:
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/136/319564137_e0c02d0b8b.jpg)

[Molly]

Matches...with the body of a horned owl on the package?

[eaglesway]

Tertullian on eternal torment

"At that greatest of all spectacles, that last and eternal judgment how shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness..."

[Cardinal]

 :sigh: Doesn't sound very Christ-like to me.......

[Molly]

:sigh: Doesn't sound very Christ-like to me.......

Although it's interesting to see he had the same problems we do with world leadership.
:laughing7:

[Charles waving from his limo to an angry mob that he has just pushed into the poorhouse with no way of escape--on his way to the theater, no less.  Where does Satan find these characters?]

[Beloved Servant]

:sigh: Doesn't sound very Christ-like to me.......

Although it's interesting to see he had the same problems we do with world leadership.
:laughing7:

[Charles waving from his limo to an angry mob that he has just pushed into the poorhouse with no way of escape--on his way to the theater, no less.  Where does Satan find these characters?]

And vice versa.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: ?

[Beloved Servant]

Where do these characters find Satan ?

[Molly]

Where do these characters find Satan ?

Crouching at the door.

6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it."



And walking to and fro on the earth.



7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"

   Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it."

--Job 1

[onlytruth]

I get the match one...in dutch matches are called lucifers

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9:  ok, I wondered...... :laughing7:

[WhiteWings]

I get the match one...in dutch matches are called lucifers

:thumbsup:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Especially to a non-smoker like myself, and a Christian, I would crack up if I heard someone ask if they had a "Lucifer"......my first inclination would be to pounce on them in deliverance mode, roflol...... :laughing7: :icon_jokercolor: