Is Satan a fallen angel ?

[micah7:9]

:cloud9: Interesting also is that the Orthodox Jews do not believe in a fallen angel called Satan. They believe he is an angel that God created and is like the "proscecuting attorney", bringing charges against us, and thereby filling the role of adversary, his job given him by God. They also don't believe he and Lucifer are the same, and find it somewhat amusing that Christendom does.

The more I dig, the more I see what a stumbling block Christendom has been to our brother, the Jews, as so much has been ignored or twisted to fit Christiandom's doctrines. Christiandom is supposed the branch grafted on that is not to exalt themselves against the tree, but they seem to have taken it and run with it, not building on a true foundation. My  :2c: Blessings....

Interesting.   :thumbsup:

:thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

The Jews lost a bit of their belief in Babylon and Egypt. Most Christians don't even see they replaced the actors but left the Roman/Greek script largely unchanged...

[micah7:9]

True.

The adversary/satan is definitlly a messenger(angel) but I dare say that the adversary fell from no height. The adversary was created for a purpose. The work of the enemy, the adversary was very much in play as man reached Gen.3:1 why you might ask?
It was for the plan. God, in all of Gods wisdom knows(we may not) but He does, that "evil" "the destroyer" an "opponent" some thing that mankind would find "ugly" "distastefull" and would not trust, something man would hate and fear, would be needed to bring about the completion of His creation and work.  I do not believe that the adversary "fell"
from anywhere, the adversary was created for a purpose and His plan, and that plan and purpose is being worked out right now;
doubting that He, God the Lord,
Isa 45:7  Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'

[micah7:9]

As far as I have come in my readings and studies, no one has ever seen the adversary/satan, no more than anyone has seen God. That has to raise some questions. I know mankind saw the serpent, but mankind aint accepting that as what its all about. Is it?
Also just what would a fallen angel have the resemblance of, a human being, a star, a metor? And then just what did the angel look like before it fell, you know the facial thing ? Again, I know I am persistant and cynical but just where in the Bible have we a recording of a "fallen angel" and should you not find the example of such a fall by an angel, why persist wondering about it?

[Beloved Servant]

I heard a story today:

A certain woman was visiting a friend at her home.
The friend was preparing to bake a ham.
Doing so, she cut off a small piece from both ends and placed them in the pan with the large piece.
Her friend asked her why she cuts off the ends when she makes a ham and was answered with:
" I don't know, that's the way my mom always makes it, I guess that makes it better"
So, she decides to call her mother on the phone and ask why.
Her mother answers, " I don't know, that's the way my mom always makes it."
lol
So they call grandma and ask her
and grandma says:
"Well, a large ham would never fit in my roasting pan, so I just trim off the ends."



This fallen angel story is just tradition passed on to the next generation who never questions why.

[micah7:9]

Heard that story and it fits this subject like a glove. Thanks! :thumbsup:

[lastpost]

Through Christ we worship the Father
It has always been, there is no other way
In Him we have our life
In Him we move
In Him we have our being
There is the Saviour
Strong, the Conqueror, powerful, fearless
Meek, gentle, selfless
Christ Jesus
The Real that is the only Real

Distinguish it from the unreal
The shadow, the false, the thoughts of betrayal
Beware the spirit that catches off guard
False anger, jealousy quick and slow,
Limitation, sickness, death,
Deceiving mind and senses
These come as an angel of light to falsify the good

[sheila]

   what I know of satan is that it is a mere tool...that will disappear....when all the hewing and sawing are accomplished on His living stones

  and tree's of righteousness...there shall be no sound of a tool when the assembling of the house/spiritual temple is brought togather.

   I will not alway accuse/find fault...for then even the spirit would fail.

[Tom]

I believe Satan was created just the way he is to do the job he's doing. That's why his name means Adversary. I also believe he will be included in all of God's creatures who will be reconciled to God and in whom God will be all in all. If you have any doubt that God controls Satan, just read the book of Job.

"You are of your father, the Adversary, and the desires of your father you are wanting to do. He was a man-killer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, for truth is not in him. Whenever he may be speaking a lie, he is speaking of his own, for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 8:44)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil004.html

[marie glen]

God is absolutely in full control. He foreknows aLL things.

Although, I do not believe YHVH controls every decision of every created being, nor believe all of this - human history and its many horrors - is all God's doing.. the horrors of history, His choices, I do believe however, He patiently waited, ever so patient, for the adversary's rebellion to fully mature before creating the universe and man and woman, in order to speed things along. (Speed along this unavoidable journey/lesson, that is. Unavoidable if there is to be rational creatures in heaven and earth.)

Yes, I believe God knew and foreknew all ppl and the lives they would lead. But I do not believe He created Hitler to be Hitler.. to let limited choice occur, and run, exhibits more perfection, more control over all things, than designing an ant farm - This bitter pill life utterly proves that wandering from God and/or differing from His will in thought, word or deed, will not and cannot ever, ever, work, for the wages of sin (imperfection as opposed to His perfection) is death/to perish. W/o His intervention / Great Plan of Salvation all would perish. He iS life. Who/What else could, would be? "In the beginning God.." To disagree with Him in any tiny way is to be imperfect, the opposite of life. the lesson of this life (imo) and human history in a nutshell.

As we know, Jesus said - (Luke 10:18, Young's Literal Translation/YLT) "and he said to them, `I was beholding the Adversary, as lightning from the heaven having fallen"

Concordant Version - "Yet He said to them, "I beheld Satan, as lightning, falling out of heaven."

I've always felt the verse in Psalms (41:9) which prophesied about Jesus and His betrayal by Judas - "Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me" refers also to Satan.. that he had a name change after his changed nature, like from Saul to Paul, or Abram, to Abraham, or Jacob to Israel, doesn't seem strange to me..

Acts 12:7 And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the prison:

2 Corinthians 11:13, 14 For such are false apostles, fraudulent workers, being transfigured into apostles of Christ. And no marvel, for Satan himself is being transfigured into a messenger of light.
- Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 14 and no wonder -- for even the Adversary doth transform himself into a messenger of light;

from Rev 1:20 "The mystery of the seven stars.. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches.."

from Rev 12 "..there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth.. and "the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." (Here cast out, after a battle in heaven; not falls/fallen)

I'm not sure why Lucifer seems to be an alternate name for the king of Babylon to some thinkers.. Bible prophecy often telescopes..
....(Was the King of Tyre really in the Garden of Eden? - from Ezek 28:12-15 "Son of man, lift up a lamentation for the king of Tyre.. Full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.. In Eden, the garden of God, thou hast been, Every precious stone thy covering, Ruby, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle, and gold.. In the midst of stones of fire thou hast walked up and down. Perfect [art] thou in thy ways, From the day of thy being produced, Till perversity hath been found in thee.." Surely the king of Tyre was never perfect..

Isaiah 14:12, Young's Literal Translation (YLT) - "How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn! Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations."

.."which deceiveth the whole world.."

.."the tempter came and said to Him.." (Mt 4:?) "God tempts no man.."
     :2c: :Peace2: :smile:

[marie glen]

God is absolutely in full control. He foreknows aLL things.

Although, I do not believe YHVH controls every decision of every created being, nor believe all of this - human history and its many horrors - is all God's doing.. the horrors of history, His choices, I do believe however, He patiently waited, ever so patient, for the adversary's rebellion to fully mature before creating the universe and man and woman, in order to speed things along. (Speed along this unavoidable journey/lesson, that is. Unavoidable if there is to be rational creatures in heaven and earth.)

Yes, I believe God knew and foreknew all ppl and the lives they would lead. But I do not believe He created Hitler to be Hitler.. to let limited choice occur, and run, exhibits more perfection, more control over all things, than designing an ant farm - This bitter pill life utterly proves that wandering from God and/or differing from His will in thought, word or deed, will not and cannot ever, ever, work, for the wages of sin (imperfection as opposed to His perfection) is death/to perish. W/o His intervention / Great Plan of Salvation all would perish. He iS life. Who/What else could, would be? "In the beginning God.." To disagree with Him in any tiny way is to be imperfect, the opposite of life. the lesson of this life (imo) and human history in a nutshell.

As we know, Jesus said - (Luke 10:18, Young's Literal Translation/YLT) "and he said to them, `I was beholding the Adversary, as lightning from the heaven having fallen"

Concordant Version - "Yet He said to them, "I beheld Satan, as lightning, falling out of heaven."

I've always felt the verse in Psalms (41:9) which prophesied about Jesus and His betrayal by Judas - "Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me" refers also to Satan.. that he had a name change after his changed nature, like from Saul to Paul, or Abram, to Abraham, or Jacob to Israel, doesn't seem strange to me..

Acts 12:7 And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the prison:

2 Corinthians 11:13, 14 For such are false apostles, fraudulent workers, being transfigured into apostles of Christ. And no marvel, for Satan himself is being transfigured into a messenger of light.
- Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 14 and no wonder -- for even the Adversary doth transform himself into a messenger of light;

from Rev 1:20 "The mystery of the seven stars.. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches.."

from Rev 12 "..there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth.. and "the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." (Here cast out, after a battle in heaven; not falls/fallen)

I'm not sure why Lucifer seems to be an alternate name for the king of Babylon to some thinkers.. Bible prophecy often telescopes..
....(Was the King of Tyre really in the Garden of Eden? - from Ezek 28:12-15 "Son of man, lift up a lamentation for the king of Tyre.. Full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.. In Eden, the garden of God, thou hast been, Every precious stone thy covering, Ruby, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle, and gold.. In the midst of stones of fire thou hast walked up and down. Perfect [art] thou in thy ways, From the day of thy being produced, Till perversity hath been found in thee.." Surely the king of Tyre was never perfect..

Isaiah 14:12, Young's Literal Translation (YLT) - "How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn! Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations."

.."which deceiveth the whole world.."

.."the tempter came and said to Him.." (Mt 4:?) "God tempts no man.."
     :2c: :Peace2: :smile:

[micah7:9]

God is absolutely in full control. He foreknows aLL things.

Although, I do not believe YHVH controls every decision of every created being, nor believe all of this - human history and its many horrors - is all God's doing.. the horrors of history, His choices, I do believe however, He patiently waited, ever so patient, for the adversary's rebellion to fully mature before creating the universe and man and woman, in order to speed things along. (Speed along this unavoidable journey/lesson, that is. Unavoidable if there is to be rational creatures in heaven and earth.)

Yes, I believe God knew and foreknew all ppl and the lives they would lead. But I do not believe He created Hitler to be Hitler.. to let limited choice occur, and run, exhibits more perfection, more control over all things, than designing an ant farm - This bitter pill life utterly proves that wandering from God and/or differing from His will in thought, word or deed, will not and cannot ever, ever, work, for the wages of sin (imperfection as opposed to His perfection) is death/to perish. W/o His intervention / Great Plan of Salvation all would perish. He iS life. Who/What else could, would be? "In the beginning God.." To disagree with Him in any tiny way is to be imperfect, the opposite of life. the lesson of this life (imo) and human history in a nutshell.

As we know, Jesus said - (Luke 10:18, Young's Literal Translation/YLT) "and he said to them, `I was beholding the Adversary, as lightning from the heaven having fallen"

Concordant Version - "Yet He said to them, "I beheld Satan, as lightning, falling out of heaven."

I've always felt the verse in Psalms (41:9) which prophesied about Jesus and His betrayal by Judas - "Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me" refers also to Satan.. that he had a name change after his changed nature, like from Saul to Paul, or Abram, to Abraham, or Jacob to Israel, doesn't seem strange to me..

Acts 12:7 And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the prison:

2 Corinthians 11:13, 14 For such are false apostles, fraudulent workers, being transfigured into apostles of Christ. And no marvel, for Satan himself is being transfigured into a messenger of light.
- Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 14 and no wonder -- for even the Adversary doth transform himself into a messenger of light;

from Rev 1:20 "The mystery of the seven stars.. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches.."

from Rev 12 "..there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth.. and "the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." (Here cast out, after a battle in heaven; not falls/fallen)

I'm not sure why Lucifer seems to be an alternate name for the king of Babylon to some thinkers.. Bible prophecy often telescopes..
....(Was the King of Tyre really in the Garden of Eden? - from Ezek 28:12-15 "Son of man, lift up a lamentation for the king of Tyre.. Full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.. In Eden, the garden of God, thou hast been, Every precious stone thy covering, Ruby, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle, and gold.. In the midst of stones of fire thou hast walked up and down. Perfect [art] thou in thy ways, From the day of thy being produced, Till perversity hath been found in thee.." Surely the king of Tyre was never perfect..

Isaiah 14:12, Young's Literal Translation (YLT) - "How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn! Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations."

.."which deceiveth the whole world.."

.."the tempter came and said to Him.." (Mt 4:?) "God tempts no man.."
     :2c: :Peace2: :smile:

Would you please explain this statement?
" I do believe however, He patiently waited, ever so patient, for the adversary's rebellion to fully mature before creating the universe and man and woman, in order to speed things along. " Thanks

[marie glen]

Would you please explain this statement?
" I do believe however, He patiently waited, ever so patient, for the adversary's rebellion to fully mature before creating the universe and man and woman, in order to speed things along. " Thanks

hi Micah,

..17 years ago when my son was 16 he asked me 2 questions, which i (believe i) received some answers in response to heartfelt prayers to understand better answers when i was not satisfied with my answers to him - even tho i had long been a solid believer, pretty much U.R. and never did believe the `hell` doctrine,

..his questions were - why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?
and, isn't it great we get to be an ant farm..? (some troubles at school that year:)

the answers which came back at me during prayer gave me a more total view of God's plan and what i think of as His purpose..

what came back to me was a series:

- that God is life itself ("In the beginning God.." hence, who/what else would/could be the spark of life, the life force itself, all life)

- that He is also (of course:) perfect. Utterly perfect.. of course! :HeartThrob:

- but even before those two, was an image came to mind having to do with God knowing (of course) all things and all possibilities, before ever starting a work of creation. It was like He could see all possibilities stretched out before His 'eyes' like a 360 degree blanket stretched out into 'space' in all directions (was how it came to mind)

- He, being perfect, has chosen all things and done all things exactly as He has, in order to bring about, in creation, the best of all possibilities.

- when He endowed thinking ability (to angel and man) a whole new world (or tree) of possibilities 'came to be'; why? because with thinking ability, sooner or later, comes the ability to make choices. (Albeit, of course, and thank-fully, very limited!)

- and God, only able to be honest, there was that tree in the midst of the original garden - besides, what was God's other choice? no rational creatures ever?

- hence suffering, life as we presently know it, and death, came to be.. for imperfection came to be..

- the last thing which came to me during this time of prayer was a two part question, which was, why did God wait "such a very long time, and only create the universe and man and woman, not only after the first rebel thought had occurred, but after it had matured into outright sedition and revolt? ..Didn't He know what would happen?" ! :laughing7: Well of course He did! :o With the "waited such a long time" came the 'vision' of `when there was 'only' the Father, the Son (the Spirit of Life) and the angels, surely there wasn't all that much to 'go astray' about` ..so took some 'time' ..showing the infinite patience of the Father..

- besides this, the paradox i felt i was shown, is how rationality is a Pandora's box because as soon as one chooses any tiny difference from what God chooses, they become imperfect, the opposite of life. So God built the rescue in from the foundation/beginning.. (and it surely makes no sense at all that God would punish and even torture, for ever, ppl or angels for He was the one Who opened, with clear intent, of course, that Pandora's box.

- and the thing is too, because He is perfect (or He too would fade?) the 'end' result of all this can only be the absolutely best one possible.

- and one of the things i liked best about all this? because He is life, He suffers, lives through and experiences all sufferings, horrors, and indignations which ever occur. Why. Would He put Himself through all that? Perhaps because He's not creating an ant farm, or robots, but His own family (of many beautiful branches) and an un-breakable paradise/perfection. Un-breakable because all will fully understand good from evil, which is also life from death(nonlife). And also fully know that one simply cannot wander away from God's Will, for to do so can only ever end in a puff (or wisp) of self destructive smoke..
Peace! :Peace2: Sorry i couldn't keep it shorter winded!