Is Marriage Needed?

[Paul Hazelwood]

But that's when you practice unsafe sex.

I certainly do not intend to blow something out of proportion, my comments are in the context of promiscuity.  I realize that "safe sex" certainly should be used and it does lessen the risk, so keep in mind that I know that as you read the rest.

My comment about Christians knee jerking would be in any instance of sex with anyone when not married to them, homosexual activity and cheating.

I would say if we follow the logic of who cares about sex, cheating is irrevalent.  If we are going to dance around proper behavior,  then if someone is not sexually fulfilled in their marriage, what difference does it make if they seek to fulfill that?  And certainly if someone is just dating, there is no such thing as cheating because there is no real comittment yet, right?  And if they practice safely then that makes it even better.


All parties in agreement is not the point.  It is a society that wants this illusion built to mask over what their behavior is doing.

I am not going to judge someone who has whatever sex they want to have, more power to them, but lets at least keep our senses and know that safe sex in the context of promiscuity will not eliminate pregnancy or disease. It doesn't stop pregnancy in monogamous relationships.   Who came up with that nonsense?

Lessen the risk,  yes,   but lets imagine a society where  all this runs rampant (all parties consenting) without regaurd to practices mainly because there is no practices for safety because no one cares. Let alone the technology to lessen the risk of the physical consequenses doesn't exist yet. And we have not even got to the emotional damage that can occur even with all parties consenting.


The biblical context of this is to know that a society would be destroyed under those circumstances.  What is our modern context since we think we have this control over the consequenses?  The self worth of people are being destroyed by the millions.

I do not expect you to agree, the point is not to condemn people and judge them, it is to love them, so that they can see where that behavior takes their spirit.

[Molly]

THAT is what a conqueror is!  You stop trying to control your nature, give it up . . .the hardest thing for my religious to do is, give up on trying to quit sinning.  Because that's all my mind wants to focus on . .what is right and what is wrong . .and the more I focus on that kind of thinking, the more it consumes me.  But when I turn it over to God . . . and pursue Christ. . .whitewings . . .you mentioned that the act of pursuing doesn't do anything . . .but there are things happening that my natural eyes and understanding can not see.

My pursuing Christ is changing my direction . .my attention is no longer on the shackles . .it's no longer about what I can and can not do.  I quit worrying about that.  Drinking does not send you to hell . . .smoking does not send you to hell . . .you controlled by them?  Let go of them. . .seriously, smoke away . . .  I can just see some of you guys as you read that.  You're not very agreeable to the idea. 

The one thing law did was, it proved you can't fulfill it.  You break one, you've broken them all.  So many comments on these threads are from those who "want" judgment to fall on everyone who doesn't live according to "their" standards.  Is that really Christ shining through?  Did Jesus really come and die for the whole world . .so that he could turn around and bring damnation on them?  Or did he do it to set us FREE from ourselves?

"But you just said if you have lust of any kind, that it's okay to give into it . . ."  What I said was . . .pursue Christ.  And in the process of your pursuit . . .stop trying to force your outside to conform until your inside has been transformed first.  When you do this, you'll find out just what rhellis experienced . . .when you let go and let God . . .you realize that the addictions you had are not as powerful over you as you thought.  But there first must be a "spiritual" transformation.  I'm in wonderment that so many have been led into UR and yet struggle so much in spiritual matters.

Jesus said "My yoke is EASY and my burden is LIGHT"  All who are WEARY come unto me and I will give you REST." 

That's not being mystic, that's just taking Jesus for his word.  I want rest just as much as the next guy . . .but I never found it by living according to the laws of judgment.  It wasn't until I threw myself with  abandon into the intimacy of God and things begin to change in how I read Scripture and in how I see others.  Rhellis, I'm excited for you.  How awesome that you've experienced victory in these areas that once ruled over you.  Don't let the waterless clouds of others take away from what God has given you.

Blessings.

Focus on Christ, not on sin.

The greatest golfers know that when you are swinging into a water trap, you focus on the flag, not the water.

If you focus on the water, the body will move the ball towards the water with its swing.

For golfers it's a mental discipline, --for us, too.

[WhiteWings]

My comment about Christians knee jerking

I don't know that expression...

then if someone is not sexually fulfilled in their marriage, what difference does it make if they seek to fulfill that?

Trick question. If both see it as a solution to the 'problem' then there is not much of  a problem.
If there is no agreement then they should re-evaluate their marriage and see if they perhaps should split up.
(no cheating)

And certainly if someone is just dating, there is no such thing as cheating because there is no real comittment yet, right?

Also depends on the the mutual agreements. For me dating can be a very real commitment. For me agreements are a very important aspect of life. I, for example, hate it when people show up late for an appointment.

I am not going to judge someone who has whatever sex they want to have, more power to them, but lets at least keep our senses and know that safe sex in the context of promiscuity will not eliminate pregnancy or disease. It doesn't stop pregnancy in monogamous relationships.   Who came up with that nonsense?

About the diseases...well nothing is without danger. So don't moan if things go wrong.
For those practicing such free relationships abortion is no issue.

The biblical context of this is to know that a society would be destroyed under those circumstances.  What is our modern context since we think we have this control over the consequenses?  The self worth of people are being destroyed by the millions.

I don't have stats on that.... But for many sex is a consumer article. Just as obvious as going to the movies.
I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying you can't project your own self worth in such a situation on theirs.
Just because they have a completly diffrent mental makeup.

I do not expect you to agree, the point is not to condemn people and judge them, it is to love them, so that they can see where that behavior takes their spirit.

I talk freely about sex. (therefore most inhere probably think I have 5 wives) Never had problems with it. And as said it's not that I do all those things. You won't see me mountainclimbing. But that doesn't mean I'm going to forbid mountainclimbers their passion because once in a while they get accidents. I don't smoke. It stinks and spoils you taste. But who am I to forbid a smoker their plesure? Same with sex. I'm not homosexual. Actually it makes me shiver. But who am I to deny their happyness.
BTW gay marriages have a higher succesrate than hetrosexual marriages. Lesbian marriges have the lowest succesrate.
Another proof women cause most of the trouble. Whoops  :laughing7:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Trick question. If both see it as a solution to the 'problem' then there is not much of  a problem.
If there is no agreement then they should re-evaluate their marriage and see if they perhaps should split up.
(no cheating)

Why?   What if the sexual fulfillment is separate from the comfort that a companion brings?  I mean isn't that how the flesh rationalizes this stuff?   I sure do not see anyhting of the spirit along these lines, correct me if you see it.

Also depends on the the mutual agreements. For me dating can be a very real commitment. For me agreements are a very important aspect of life. I, for example, hate it when people show up late for an appointment.

But then we are expecting others to live like us, so agreements are irrevalent under this mindset of live and let live.   An agreement can be broken because the circumstances can be different than when the agreement was made.  Who are we to judge?

About the diseases...well nothing is without danger. So don't moan if things go wrong.
For those practicing such free relationships abortion is no issue.

But people do moan while they pretend to be oblivious about it.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying you can't project your own self worth in such a situation on theirs.
Just because they have a completly diffrent mental makeup.

Thats just a denial that sex actually can be some commodity no different than going to the movies.   It can't and it is not about judging it right or wrong from my perspective, it is seeing that people know less and less what love is as behavior becomes less and less important.  Just because no one acknowledges it or admits it doesn't mean anything.


My point is not necessarily to stand on a soap box expecting others to act a certain way.  This forum post is certainly not about preaching out to the world that everyone had better straighten up and try to convince people of things that aren't going to listen that way.

It is explaining real aspects of behavior so when we encounter someone needing help understanding things in their life we can possibly help them understand that if they are promiscuous  (EVEN if it is only in their thoughts) it may very well be a factor in the trouble they have.

I once encountered a man who believed his wife did not find him sexual attractive, he started taking an interest in another woman,  this man and this woman never engaged in any physical activity and spoke to one another as friends through the whole course of this.   The mans emotions went haywire and he started having vivid fantasies of having sex with her,  this actually caused some terrible emotional trouble for the man. He then started having vivid dreams beyond his direct control of hoping his wife would die so then he could be free to explore his desires physically.  The dreams weren;t particularly disturbing to him because his fantasies were ruling his emotions.   While he felt that maybe the fantasies were harmless the last thing he thought could happen was a desire that his wife would die.  It took a long time for him to get over this, not only did he think he loved his woman friend, he was haunted by the dreams he had about his wife.

If we do not define those real aspects of human behavior, then who can help who with anything if its just anything goes?

[WhiteWings]

Trick question. If both see it as a solution to the 'problem' then there is not much of  a problem.
If there is no agreement then they should re-evaluate their marriage and see if they perhaps should split up.
(no cheating)

Why?   What if the sexual fulfillment is separate from the comfort that a companion brings?  I mean isn't that how the flesh rationalizes this stuff?   I sure do not see anyhting of the spirit along these lines, correct me if you see it.

I'm not sure I understand your question. But let me say I'm in no way meaning sex is the only thing  a relation is about.
But if things go sexually wrong and it starts make the married couple unhappy in a unsolveble way splitting up may be one of the solutions.

Also depends on the the mutual agreements. For me dating can be a very real commitment. For me agreements are a very important aspect of life. I, for example, hate it when people show up late for an appointment.

But then we are expecting others to live like us, so agreements are irrevalent under this mindset of live and let live.   An agreement can be broken because the circumstances can be different than when the agreement was made.  Who are we to judge?

I can best explain this with an example.
If I meet new friends and they don't keep themselfs to agreements they very soon will be ex-friends.
I don't force my views on anyone. But I won't hangout with those who don't hold roughtly the same values as I do.
Live and let live is only if 'the others' don't bother me with it.

About the diseases...well nothing is without danger. So don't moan if things go wrong.
For those practicing such free relationships abortion is no issue.

But people do moan while they pretend to be oblivious about it.

You are right about that Paul. Translated from Dutch "Repentance comes after sin."
First of all I'm not promoting anything here.
Secondly I'm not saying it's perfect or even near perfect.
I'm just saying it's a choice.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying you can't project your own self worth in such a situation on theirs.
Just because they have a completly diffrent mental makeup.

Thats just a denial that sex actually can be some commodity no different than going to the movies.   It can't and it is not about judging it right or wrong from my perspective, it is seeing that people know less and less what love is as behavior becomes less and less important.  Just because no one acknowledges it or admits it doesn't mean anything.

It's a bit unfair to let me speak for whole humanity. I can't.
The only thing I can say that some people can feel real love and still are sexual free/immoral/deranged (whatever term you like)
For some sex is extremely connected with love. For others it's a seperate entity. But even for those love+sex often exceeds the sum of the parts.
People like to put others in boxes. I never forget a female college once came to me and said: "Hey, Tony. I was walking in the park and say a fully dressed up Metal couple that seemed to be extremely in love with their baby."
Understand what I said?

My point is not necessarily to stand on a soap box expecting others to act a certain way.  This forum post is certainly not about preaching out to the world that everyone had better straighten up and try to convince people of things that aren't going to listen that way.

Paul, I do not see it as preaching. I also see a lot of truth in your words. I'm also very sure you are very happy in your relationship the way you have it. The only thing I say 6 billion people. 6 billion idea's. Putting people in boxes is one of the greater evils of humanity. To name one racism.

It is explaining real aspects of behavior so when we encounter someone needing help understanding things in their life we can possibly help them understand that if they are promiscuous  (EVEN if it is only in their thoughts) it may very well be a factor in the trouble they have.

Sure when helping people making suggestions surely is a part of the helping process (is that is what you mean)

I once encountered a man who believed his wife did not find him sexual attractive, he started taking an interest in another woman,  this man and this woman never engaged in any physical activity and spoke to one another as friends through the whole course of this.   The mans emotions went haywire and he started having vivid fantasies of having sex with her,  this actually caused some terrible emotional trouble for the man. He then started having vivid dreams beyond his direct control of hoping his wife would die so then he could be free to explore his desires physically.  The dreams weren;t particularly disturbing to him because his fantasies were ruling his emotions.   While he felt that maybe the fantasies were harmless the last thing he thought could happen was a desire that his wife would die.  It took a long time for him to get over this, not only did he think he loved his woman friend, he was haunted by the dreams he had about his wife.

I can't and won't judge someone who lives 10000 miles from me. So my reply is just a general one.
I fairly often read about women who didn't have 1 single orgasm in their 30 year marriage. A 'funny' example of such a couple was a man and wife that visited a marriage counciler. The man was depressed because it suffered from impotence.
So the doctor asked. Can you get it hard if you do such and such? The man answered that not my problem. I can't just not get my wife to get an orgasm. Long story short. The couple only 'used' one position. The man way humping her as a wild bull for an hour without taking a breath. The real problem was they never ever talked about sex.
Once again without having or wanting the background info of your friend I somehow feel it's connected to my little story.
And so nothing to do with sex but severe lack of communication. A relationship is about sharing your complete mind.
And that's not only about what color socks you like...

If we do not define those real aspects of human behavior, then who can help who with anything if its just anything goes?

I hope from reading my above answers you now understand I never wrote, or meant, that everything goes.
Honesty, agreements, commitment are very important.
Keep in mind English is my second language and I don't master the finesses of it. So I'm well aware I'm sounding like a blunt axe  :laughing7:

Take care Paul :thumbsup:

[rhellis]

Two words come to mind- wisdom and love.

Wisdom is just educated self-love. I am free to eat whatever, but I try to maintain a healthy, balanced diet because I love myself and I have at least some knowledge of what is good for me.

I walk in wisdom for myself and love for others-- these two forces are the strongest means of good behavior. And I am free.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hi white wings,

I apologize for reading into your comments further than what was true.

I can also see where my comments may tend to seek to judge people with generalizations.  But that is not what I intended to do.

Sure when helping people making suggestions surely is a part of the helping process (is that is what you mean)

This is about the best way to put the whole idea of where I was coming from. 

Religion seeks to cleanse a society through law.  I think they have the idea that pharasees only existed 2000 years ago.  :laughing7:

I do not mean to point out behavioral issues to judge people. It appears that way because in the midst of saying a certain behavior is not something we should get all bent out of shape there are real people struggling with consequenses of that behavior.   I know that some do not, or at least maybe see that in their life it doesn't matter so much so they just keep on.  But I also do not like to see people overlooked because it is thought that emotional problems come from the attempt at restriction of behavior in the first place.

[reFORMer]

whitewings says:
I don't force my views on anyone. But I won't hangout with those who don't hold roughtly the same values as I do.
Live and let live is only if 'the others' don't bother me with it.
Are we to love or even just to tolerate only those who agree with us?  Jesus says:  "Love your enemies that you may be children of your Father Who is in heaven."  I'll admit that because of my desire for more of God and a greater understanding of His word I tend to end up alone without wanting to.  It's not a matter of compromise to get along with them.  I'm not interested.  When someone is in graduate school it does some really wrong things to make them hang out in kindergarten.  Of course, then you have to explain that there's nothing wrong with kids.  Love doesn't mean we have to adopt other people's views or behavior.  But when one has something really good it can sometimes not be welcomed by people who never give themselves an opportunity to even find out about it if at first exposure it seems to interfere with the temporary pleasures they are committed to pursuing.

whitewings says:
I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying you can't project your own self worth in such a situation on theirs.
Just because they have a completly diffrent mental makeup.
You can grow up to the point you know the real car is more valuable than the toy car.  The little kid doesn't see it that way.  Nothing wrong with his playing.  I can't get much fellowship with him about my real car.  He can't relate to me.  While I can relate to him, for both of our well being it better not be for too long of a time though.  There are real values that the immature don't recognize.  If I gave you a name and address of a Doctor that was one of the few who would do radical surgeries on terminal cancer patients ordinary Oncologists and Surgeons wouldn't touch, just send home to die, you might find it interesting, that it was probably legitimate and of value; but, because you are busy working with other matters, it would get lost in a pile of junk mail somewhere, something you don't need.  The moment you get cancer everything changes.  I know things about Jesus like that.  He can put explanations of His secrets out in plain view for everyone to see without any worry that the wrong people will recognize and take unfair advatage with them.

whitewings says:
The only thing I can say that some people can feel real love and still are sexual free/immoral/deranged (whatever term you like)
For some sex is extremely connected with love. For others it's a seperate entity. But even for those love+sex often exceeds the sum of the parts.
People like to put others in boxes.
I was a "hippie" in Haight-Ashbury of San Francisco and hung out in Berekely in the late sixties.  "Free love" was the word.  Other than sex, I found almost no love.  I thought this was true.  Now I know it is because God has given me someone who loves me.  Sure we shouldn't discourage what little flicker of love people may have.  Religious people, Christians, drove me away.  Yet I went along with them, believing what they were saying about God, until they found out I just didn't have anything of my own.  I had nowhere that I belonged.  They didn't see anything worth it in me to take me up and help me find my way in life.  Scripture speaks of, "purifying your love by obedience to the truth."  Love, specially new love, may not be pure; but, you wouldn't throw out a lump of gold just because it had gravel in it, would you?

To give up immorality for what, marriage?  That's supposed to be a sacrifice?  What a blessing you aren't gay and sex becomes completely forbidden in order to walk pleasing to God.  If you don't experience the gift of the Holy Spirit it seems you will not be able to "take up your cross, deny yourself and follow Jesus.  You can't enter the next room until you leave the one you're in.  Even though you have natural advantages that make it so much easier for you to go God's way, you can't until the great value of pleasing the Holy Spirit is recognized by you.  People don't die for what they know to be a lie.  Without the manifestations of the Holy Spirit in my life I wouldn't know what I need to know to abandon Adam and his world and everything blessed there.  Without the rewards of His increasing freedom and approval as I come out and the gift of his grace, an active working of God in me causing me to enter this other dimension called GOD, I would stay where I was.

Commonly, people's response when you shine a light on the box they're in, is, "Don't put me in your box man!"

[WhiteWings]

Paul,

Never apologize for honesty and/or a genuine opinion. Besides I'm not free from labeling people either.
"Holier than you are" attitude.
So apologies not accepted. Just because there is nothing to accept apologies for!

I'm sure religious people and their laws try to do very well. But like with anything; drive it to the extreme and it goes wrong.
Kapitalism is ok. Communism has is flair too I think. But when driven to the extreme.... Then they look pretty much the same. On one side you have the wealth witch more money than they can burn. On the other side the vast majority living a slaves.
So perhaps communism, kapitalism and Christianity are (near) perfect systems. It's just that humans are to flawed to use the systems. Focussing on Christianity now. Look at the pope/vatican. One of the (self proclaimed) leaders of Christianity. Grab a historybook and you see the vatican is drowning in blood. I bet when Jesus is in charge the same system won't turn into a mess. (btw this is not just about catholics)
"One shoe fits all?" Don't think so.
"Shot-gun wedding" No real love.
That said; I really think Christianity or just some of its value's/laws can be very beneficial for people.
Some people can't walk trough life alone. They need some sort of guide to make themselfs feel safe.

[WhiteWings]

Hi Reformer,

"Are we to love or even just to tolerate only those who agree with us?"
I was just speaking of my own faulty me. Not for the whole world.
But a little later you wrote you are not interested in those who aren't on the same path to God.
Isn't that the same what I wrote? Different reasons; same result.


About your real/toy car example. All I can say I agree 100% with it. Except for the Jesus part because I never experienced Him.


"Other than sex, I found almost no love."
But the majority of seeking free sex aren't looking for love or commitment. You don't even need to know each others name to have good sex.
Such a concept will sound insane to many. But not to those involved in it. It even adds to their excitement.


For your 2nd last paragraph I have no answer. I never experienced the HS. Or the deeper feeling connected to such an experience.
So I can try to imagine what you talk about. I think I can (a little). But not enough to base any arguments either positive or negative on it.

Commonly, people's response when you shine a light on the box they're in, is, "Don't put me in your box man!"
I think that's (partly) where the Jesus splinter and wooden beam is all about.
People think they are the only ones not in a box, or the only ones in a perfect box.

[ChuckK3]

Just this past weekend, I had a woman give me some vibe. She's going through a divorce, got a lot of problems, and for lack of a better word, easy. I know that I am at liberty, but I could NOT bring myself to take advantage of the situation though my flesh sincerely wanted to. It's so frustrating, dang it, but love is winning in my life. 

Rhett,

   I can see how one's flesh wants to be gratified.  Perhaps this is the reason that I myself have not so much as had a woman in my life let alone being married.  I suppose I could find any loose woman and have an affair.  However, I would want more from realtionship than merely "getting a piece".

   You showed a lot of strength in your situation.  Perhaps me on the other hand might not have been as strong, which explains why I don't seem to have those kinds of opportunities, as it's written: "God will not allow one to be tempted beyond his/her ability to resist".

Chuck