Tentmaker Forum

I got into this strange conversation over at the CARM forums.

Namely we were discussing if there was anything that would be pure evil for God to do - for example would God send babies to be tormented forever.  Some there do believe this.

So I posed a hypothetical:
Suppose God tortured kittens for ever.  We know this would not be a good thing to do, therefore we can safely understand that God does not torture kittens for ever.

To my surprise I got into an argument.  People wanted to know why it would be bad for God to forever torture kittens.

I tried to explain that it would be evil, it would be unkind, it would be wrong to cause pain forever on a helpless creature that you yourself created, and since God says He does not lie and He is not unkind, we know God would not do this.

Yet I continued to get arguments and protests that God could do this if He wanted and it would be A-OK.

:dontknow:

After a while I realized something.  Many people cannot identify the difference between good and evil...

Any thoughts on this?

 :2c:There is a psychiatric term asnd we all do it at times. It's called "double think"
Double think is holding two differing and sometimes complete opposite opinions about a subject, belief, or idea.
So yes, it is quite possible for people to believe that God is love and at the same time torture kittens forever.
Maybe in their minds, yes, God could torture kittens forever because they reason, God can do anything he wants to do and if he wants to torture kittens, he must have a good reason that we can't see from out limited point of view.

Deeper than that to me, is if Christ had only to die for atonement of our sins, why was he also beaten, why the thirty nine lashes, why the crown of thorns and his beard pulled out by the roots and why was he mocked? Why not just a quick simple death like a spear in his side?
The Father could have certainly arranged that.

why would Jesus say we have to forgive those who  treespass against us..to be 'perfect' like the Father in heaven

  would God  require of us a to 'forgive men their sins' ifHe does not?  I don't think so.

Could it be that we should forgive because God has forgiven us. God, being perfect, does not have to forgive does he?
But He does. So once we are forgiven of all the sins we have committed, isn't it a small thing to forgive minor trespasses against us?
"Love hardly notices when others do it wrong"
Yes Sheila, being conformed to the image of Jesus the son, we must forgive.
"Forgive them Father,. for they know not what they do"

so then..God is Love..shows us His nature..that though we crucify HIM with slanderous allegations

  of His character and divine nature of LOVE...He doesn't keep record of the injury. the ignorance of HIM

  makes us easily deceived..by the original slanderer

Quote from: ded2daworld on November 02, 2012, 09:43:40 PM
:2c:There is a psychiatric term asnd we all do it at times. It's called "double think"
Double think is holding two differing and sometimes complete opposite opinions about a subject, belief, or idea.
So yes, it is quite possible for people to believe that God is love and at the same time torture kittens forever.
Maybe in their minds, yes, God could torture kittens forever because they reason, God can do anything he wants to do and if he wants to torture kittens, he must have a good reason that we can't see from out limited point of view.

Deeper than that to me, is if Christ had only to die for atonement of our sins, why was he also beaten, why the thirty nine lashes, why the crown of thorns and his beard pulled out by the roots and why was he mocked? Why not just a quick simple death like a spear in his side?
The Father could have certainly arranged that.

1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Quote from: legoman on November 02, 2012, 08:49:29 PM
I got into this strange conversation over at the CARM forums.

Namely we were discussing if there was anything that would be pure evil for God to do - for example would God send babies to be tormented forever.  Some there do believe this.

So I posed a hypothetical:
Suppose God tortured kittens for ever.  We know this would not be a good thing to do, therefore we can safely understand that God does not torture kittens for ever.

To my surprise I got into an argument.  People wanted to know why it would be bad for God to forever torture kittens.

I tried to explain that it would be evil, it would be unkind, it would be wrong to cause pain forever on a helpless creature that you yourself created, and since God says He does not lie and He is not unkind, we know God would not do this.

Yet I continued to get arguments and protests that God could do this if He wanted and it would be A-OK.

:dontknow:

After a while I realized something.  Many people cannot identify the difference between good and evil...

Any thoughts on this?

This is what happens when a point of doctrine becomes more important to someone than any and all other scripture or reason or philosophy. It is what Paul called "towers and strongholds". These are beachheads or fortresses the adversary has established in the minds of unenlightened people who think they know God but do not know Him- they have "an image set up in the holy place" and they worship it thinking it is Christ when it is really anti-Christ. They are carnal, 666(man's systematic theology masquerading as the true knowledge of God) is in their heads. They blind and led by blind guides. They definitely do not know the difference between good and evil, as is always the case with natural men and carnal believers- a case Paul laid out for some of the Corinthians- and that Jesus laid out for some of the churches in the first three chapters of John's Revelation. God have mercy on them

Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
(2Co 4:1-6)

Thank God that He will have all men to be saved, even them LOL


"

Quote from: ded2daworld on November 02, 2012, 09:43:40 PM

Deeper than that to me, is if Christ had only to die for atonement of our sins, why was he also beaten, why the thirty nine lashes, why the crown of thorns and his beard pulled out by the roots and why was he mocked? Why not just a quick simple death like a spear in his side?
The Father could have certainly arranged that.

Jesus the Christ should have only had to die simply and with little pain, like Isaac would have under his own father's hand, had God not put a stop to it.  The altar was there in Jerusalem, and the priest to shed His blood, but Jesus suffered much more than He had to, because His people were so sinful and unbelieving.  There is surely a lot of symbolic meaning also in what Jesus suffered, and unlike Moses, Jesus was not going to mar the symbol.

Of course and also, Jesus' suffering was absolutely real, and any symbolic meaning we draw from it would be meaningless without the actual agony of His experience undergone willingly for our redemption :o)

Quote from: LegomanAfter a while I realized something. Many people cannot identify the difference between good and evil...

That's why it's part of our job on this earth.


12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

--Heb 5

 :iagree:

Yes, Molly, I come here for Strong Meat.

"Blessed are those who eat for strength and not for drunkenness."

I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling, and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God. Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM." For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
(1Co 2:3-10)

un huh...hidden wisdom..hidden manna

Hidden by the veil, soon to be removed.

Not sure I understand the evil question.

First, I could not find the word torture in the Bible. I found torment and tormented G929 G928 G931 G939. And I understand this as spiritual, but then that is my understanding. And I also find that torment,
in the that sense, is a far greater pain than the physical. But then we read in Isa. 53:10 "YET it PLEASED Jehovah to bruise him.....

Isa 53:10  Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand.
Pleased H2654  delight, desire, favour, like, move, be (well) pleased, have pleasure, will, would.
Bruise H1792   beat to pieces, break (in pieces), bruise, contrite, crush, destroy, humble, oppress, smite.
Heb 12:5  And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6  For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7  If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8  But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9  Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10  For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11  Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Scourgeth  G3146  to flog (literally or figuratively from G3148 (through the idea of contact); a whip (literally the Roman flagellum for criminals; figuratively a disease): - plague, scourging.

Quote from: ded2daworld on November 02, 2012, 10:50:25 PM
Could it be that we should forgive because God has forgiven us. God, being perfect, does not have to forgive does he?
But He does. So once we are forgiven of all the sins we have committed, isn't it a small thing to forgive minor trespasses against us?
"Love hardly notices when others do it wrong"
Yes Sheila, being conformed to the image of Jesus the son, we must forgive.
"Forgive them Father,. for they know not what they do"

I M O
We are free
The Lord has purchased every bodies freedom.
There is no punishment of hell there is no punishment at all.

We are free to believe Jesus is the Son of God.
There are personnel benefits for believing .

We are free to forgive.
We are already forgiven for not forgiving each other.
Now you are free to forgive ,who you want to.
We had no authority to forgive.
Only God could forgive because only God could be offended.
Now he says "you are forgiven for not forgiving your neighbor.

Now you are free to forgive for no reason other than you realize
that you have the freedom to truly forgive.
To forgive with out getting .
to forgive because you have been GIVEN. The freedom.

We are free.

Gen 2:9  and Jehovah God causeth to sprout from the ground every tree desirable for appearance, and good for food, and the tree of life in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Gen 2:16  And Jehovah God layeth a charge on the man, saying, `Of every tree of the garden eating thou dost eat;
Gen 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'
For me this describes our first learning lesson, without this first step of experiencing knowledge, to discern, that of good and evil("ra ra ah" bad) would we need 2Co 5:18  But all things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and gave unto us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19  to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Until the Father draws(drags) us to His Son Jesus, Rom 8:20  for to vanity was the creation made subject--not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it --in hope,
Rom 8:21  that also the creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God;

Evil is what man does UNTIL........... :dsunny:

Quote from: dajomaco on December 11, 2012, 08:55:48 PM
I M O
We are free
The Lord has purchased every bodies freedom.
There is no punishment of hell there is no punishment at all.

We are free to believe Jesus is the Son of God.
There are personnel benefits for believing .

We are free to forgive.
We are already forgiven for not forgiving each other.
Now you are free to forgive ,who you want to.
We had no authority to forgive.
Only God could forgive because only God could be offended.
Now he says "you are forgiven for not forgiving your neighbor.

Now you are free to forgive for no reason other than you realize
that you have the freedom to truly forgive.
To forgive with out getting .
to forgive because you have been GIVEN. The freedom.

We are free.

......and the greatest freedom we are given is to be free from fear of  the future.

Just wondering about the original post question?

Getting back to the original post
What I think is good. Anyone that disagrees with me is evil. :laugh:

Please don't take the above as serious in any way. I'm the kind of guy
that thinks everyone would enjoy God and life more if they would lighten
up a little... even tho' I'd be the first to admit that there is a record of
Jesus weeping and no record of Jesus laughing.
For kids to respond to him as he did, IMO, he at least smiled broadly. :laughing7:

It's not a time to lighten up, IMO.   It's a time to double down and press in.




For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

--Gal 5:13

IMO , time to rest from all our ways, and listen to what the spirit says.all our differences will be a mute point, so let's look forward with joy what He will do
Blessings

Quote from: Molly on December 16, 2012, 06:26:10 PM
It's not a time to lighten up, IMO.   It's a time to double down and press in.




For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

--Gal 5:13

Amen- Doubling down brings the double portion, the first-born's inheritance, Jacob's lot- Israel possessed in fruitfulness, Elisha's anointing (Elisha -"I want a double portion/firstborn's share of your anointing"- Elijah- "If you are following when I am caught up it will be yours")

14 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes.


Rev 12:5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who "will rule all the nations with an iron scepter." And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

Eph 4:7-16  But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift.  Therefore it says,


"When He ascended on high,
He led captive a host of captives,
And He gave gifts to men."

(Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?  He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

We need to "know" where to double down,this is about to be revealed. Not because anything we do, but what He will do, the seventh day is the rest day, hear what the spirit says
Blessings

Ecc 11:2  Give a portion to seven, and also to eight; for thou knowest not what evil shall be upon the earth.

....maybe..increase our light in Jesus Christ would be called 'lighten UP"? :girlheart:

We may not want to accept it but evil is from God. To deny it or make excuses for God is useless time spent. God is responsible for ALL things. Col 1:17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Call evil calamity, call it by some other word but the Scriptures do not say "the tree of knowledge of good and calamity." and God made that tree to sprout, as well as all the trees.
Gen 2:9  And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. TO GROW (Sprout= H6779 to sprout (transitively or intransitively, literally or figuratively): - bear, bring forth, (cause to, make to) bud (forth), (cause to, make to) grow (again, up), (cause to) spring (forth, up).
Some may think this out of "context" and if so I must wonder how 2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Isa 45:6  That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

To say that the above is not true, is a lie. Jehovah God said it...believe it we do not have to fully understand it yet.

God made EVIL H7451  bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil  FROM H7489   properly to spoil (literally by breaking to pieces); figuratively to make (or be) good for nothing, that is, bad (physically, socially or morally).- afflict, break (down, in pieces), + displease, (be, bring, do) evil (doer, entreat, man), show self friendly do harm, (do) hurt, (behave self, deal) ill, X indeed, do mischief, punish, still vex, (do) wicked (doer, -ly), be (deal, do) worse.

For His purpose.

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 30, 2012, 06:28:00 PM
We may not want to accept it but evil is from God. To deny it or make excuses for God is useless time spent. God is responsible for ALL things. Col 1:17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Call evil calamity, call it by some other word but the Scriptures do not say "the tree of knowledge of good and calamity." and God made that tree to sprout, as well as all the trees.
Gen 2:9  And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. TO GROW (Sprout= H6779 to sprout (transitively or intransitively, literally or figuratively): - bear, bring forth, (cause to, make to) bud (forth), (cause to, make to) grow (again, up), (cause to) spring (forth, up).
Some may think this out of "context" and if so I must wonder how 2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Isa 45:6  That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

To say that the above is not true, is a lie. Jehovah God said it...believe it we do not have to fully understand it yet.

God made EVIL H7451  bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil  FROM H7489   properly to spoil (literally by breaking to pieces); figuratively to make (or be) good for nothing, that is, bad (physically, socially or morally).- afflict, break (down, in pieces), + displease, (be, bring, do) evil (doer, entreat, man), show self friendly do harm, (do) hurt, (behave self, deal) ill, X indeed, do mischief, punish, still vex, (do) wicked (doer, -ly), be (deal, do) worse.

For His purpose.

God is responsibe for everything. All judgment is play acting. Accountability is a misbegotten concept from a bunch of false scriptures. Yea Yea...... makes sense to me.


Psalm 78:41
Yes, again and again they tempted God, And limited the Holy One of Israel
1 Thessalonians 3:5

1 Thess. 3:5
For this reason, when I could no longer endure it, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor might be in vain.

1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.


James 1:12-15
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.


Micah, Its not so much that I disagree with the fact that God ultimately, is responsible for anything He allows. It is that that is only half the truth. When it is presented as the whole truth- it is an error.

God never creates evil, evil as in sin, lawlessness, lust- about this the scriptures are clear.

God has created an ENVIRONMENT WHERE BOTH MEN AND ANGELS CAN CHOOSE TO DO EVIL, and He holds them responsible for their choices in the short term- and even tho ultimately His mercy will swallow all transgression it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God- and, IMO, a foolish thing to underestimate His AVERSION TO EVIL.

I argued with myself over such things, but the Word of God is True and i lost.

I truely believe when we as believers can accept the Truth and KNOW that it is the Lord in all things, we as believers will grow UP (mature)from our making reasons why ALL things are not of God.
I, do not believe God "allows" evil, I believe He causes evil. He "causes" evil so Good will react to it.
These are His words not mine.
Jer 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.
Jer 11:11  Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them.
Mic 1:12  For the inhabitant of Maroth waited carefully for good: but evil came down from the LORD unto the gate of Jerusalem.
Mic 2:3  Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil, from which ye shall not remove your necks; neither shall ye go haughtily: for this time is evil.
3Jn 1:11  Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

You are placing a lot of weight on one passage concerning a word that occurs over 500 times in the bible. It appears to me you didnt conduct a very intense argument with yourself, since I have presented at least a half dozen scriptures or so over the course of this conversation that present (IMO) a wider vista on the subject.

If you look at three square inches of a painting you might conclude, "Thats a really red picture". Another person, seeing the whole picture would say to you, "Yea, it has some red in it."

As far as I can tell here they are.
Psalm 78:41
Yes, again and again they tempted God, And limited the Holy One of Israel
1 Thessalonians 3:5

1 Thess. 3:5
For this reason, when I could no longer endure it, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor might be in vain.

1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.


James 1:12-15
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

"....since I have presented at least a half dozen scriptures or so over the course of this conversation that present (IMO) a wider vista on the subject."

Where is the wider vista? The post has to do with identifying evil. I have simply stated what I have read, that God planted the sprout of evil in the very beginning. I didn't make it up. God introduced evil for a working part in His creation. I don't say I understand it, but He did it. I have read that God tempts no man and believe it. I have read that through the blood of Jesus we can overcome evil. My wondering is since HE SAID He created evil why it is not accepted as a truth?
And as far as the "red picture" there can be many views. But if the three square inches are false then the whole picture will be an illusion.

and He has made the way of escape...by MY MOUNTAIN VALLEY.............

   indeed,He set this exercize up of good/evil..for the benefit of His sons and daughters..not their

  destruction..but as a learning expierence.

   He knows the way..and will lead us..that we not suffer loss...but be found blameless and spotless.

Is there a battle between good and evil?

Satan's answer--------- yes.

Jesus' answer--- -no longer.

Holy Spirit's --------answer no, but there is a BATTLE.

God's answer____ there is no battle and there has never been a battle.

Satan is the created being that has power over things of the flesh.
Every thing done in the flesh has the aroma of evil leading to the stench of death.

His battle field is earth he has developed a scientific understanding of the
weakness of the flesh.
You need no faith to follow his lead you do what just comes natural
and call it good or bad.

Every one knows that bad flesh should die.
But what about good flesh ( We have been feeding these starving kids
and protecting them so they can go out and kill and torture more kids.)
The good flesh can only produce death.

Jesus won the battle for us.
He defeated Satan by taking his own flesh and killing it on a tree.
Once for all mankind.

Holy Spirit teaches our spirit that our spirit is not flesh and is pure.
We no longer battle in the flesh realm.
He strengthens our faith.
Where we fight the battle is up to us we can stay in Satan's
battle field. Satan has all of science and reality on his side.

The Holy Spirit can and does show us that through Faith.

We are not flesh but a victorious spirit that was so important
to God the Father that he was willing to sacrifice his own son,
So that there would be no doubt in our minds that we have been
adopted by the most Royal family in the history of histories .

 

Daj,
But...but... I always thought that Jesus was God in the flesh
Good flesh? Bad flesh? IMO, some of your ideas can't be backed by scripture. :Peace2:

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 30, 2012, 09:07:12 PM
Daj,
But...but... I always thought that Jesus was God in the flesh
Good flesh? Bad flesh? IMO, some of your ideas can't be backed by scripture. :Peace2:

Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now going to be made complete by the flesh?

Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

I think maybe what Daj said can be reconciled..  True the good/evil expierence produces death in our flesh..

  But Jesus said 'THE COMMANDMENT WAS UNTO LIFE" and therefore God wanted us to live..

and therefore He gave the commandment Not to eat.  God desired that man in His image should

rule over[dominion] the earth..and bring everything into subjection through obediance to Him..that

darkness not reign..but the children of light.

  and Jesus was given to man that was overcome of the Darkness..to lead us to everlasting light.

  thus,forgiveness and atonement for all in Adam..that they be set free from any darkness ruling over them.

  the exercize good/evil...with all it's works and wages..whether death or life..is concluded at the 6th day..

  for it is decreed that God made the Sabbath for rest for man's sake....and we are to carry no burden..

  of sin works into the Holy city. That is why we are instructed to 'rest' in Jesus Christ and the works of

God's hands in this matter[the Father does His works through me]..that the Sabbath..rest.....be the

healing and the binding up of the wound[sin] of His people.....

  thus God relieves man of the heavy burden of sin..and lifts it off him..by His sons atonement..

  that the sons of God be set free into the Glorious freedom of the sons of God.

  the millenial reign is just that...no more killing on that day..but healing and a setting free of all men.


  thy Kingdom Come,thy Will be done..on earth as it is in heaven.

 the sin that come upon Adam and Eve in the Garden..was unbelief in God's command Not to eat....

   the remedy is BELEIF IN HIS SON THAT TOOK AWAY ALL SIN.  this is how we died...

and this is How we live.

Quote from: dajomaco on December 30, 2012, 08:36:19 PM
Is there a battle between good and evil?

Satan's answer--------- yes.

For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it.

Jesus' answer--- -no longer.

Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.Holy

Spirit's --------answer no, but there is a BATTLE.

For our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the world powers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavens.

God's answer____ there is no battle and there has never been a battle.

For everything that belongs to the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride in one's lifestyle—is not from the Father, but is from the world.

Satan is the created being that has power over things of the flesh.
Every thing done in the flesh has the aroma of evil leading to the stench of death.

Now since the children have flesh and blood in common, Jesus also shared in these, so that through His death He might destroy the one holding the power of death—that is, the Devil —


His battle field is earth he has developed a scientific understanding of the
weakness of the flesh.
You need no faith to follow his lead you do what just comes natural
and call it good or bad.

For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it.

Every one knows that bad flesh should die.
But what about good flesh ( We have been feeding these starving kids
and protecting them so they can go out and kill and torture more kids.)
The good flesh can only produce death.

For the mind-set of the flesh is hostile to God because it does not submit itself to God's law, for it is unable to do so.

Jesus won the battle for us.

What the law could not do since it was limited by the flesh, God did. He condemned sin in the flesh by sending His own Son in flesh like ours under sin's domain, and as a sin offering,

He defeated Satan by taking his own flesh and killing it on a tree.
Once for all mankind.

He erased the certificate of debt, with its obligations, that was against us and opposed to us, and has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and disgraced them publicly; He triumphed over them by Him.[a]

Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Holy Spirit teaches our spirit that our spirit is not flesh and is pure.
We no longer battle in the flesh realm.

For our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the world powers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavens.

He strengthens our faith.
Where we fight the battle is up to us we can stay in Satan's
battle field. Satan has all of science and reality on his side.

The Holy Spirit can and does show us that through Faith.

We are not flesh but a victorious spirit that was so important
to God the Father that he was willing to sacrifice his own son,
So that there would be no doubt in our minds that we have been
adopted by the most Royal family in the history of histories .

Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But just as then the child born according to the flesh persecuted the one born according to the Spirit, so also now. 30 But what does the Scripture say?
Drive out the slave and her son, for the son of the slave will never be a coheir with the son of the free woman.[a]

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 30, 2012, 09:07:12 PM
Daj,
But...but... I always thought that Jesus was God in the flesh
Good flesh? Bad flesh? IMO, some of your ideas can't be backed by scripture. :Peace2:

Ded be a good fellow and show me the statements that are Anti scriptural.
I learn a lot by exposing my ideas and being corrected.
I have been corrected here before and I am better for it. :gimmefive:

indeed,flesh and blood can not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Thus we are told to pick up our cross

   [lay our flesh down..in order to take it back up again] and follow Him=I am returning unto your Father

  and my Father......We must worship in Spirit and Truth.

   the new creature..is a celestial spirit creature

   sorry..don't mean to but in..my  :2c:

we go like Him and suffer outside the camp[lay this flesh and blood down] that we may enter into

the Holy city[Heaven] prepared for us.  for sure our flesh..and sin in it which has been condemned

  in us all...shall not enter...it is a burden unto us...we all groan awaiting our redemption[this body undergoing this

death.]  we await our 'change'

      these old wineskins would burst if the fullness dwell in them/thus a token of the spirit......

      outside the Holy city are all the unclean things that dwell in our flesh..indeed,we only go in and out

     until..........

  in the spirit.

Hey Daj,
I didn't say or even think that your statements were anti-biblical. I just didn't have any idea what scripture you were using to support it.
Lack of scriptural support is not necessarily against the bible. I can't biblically support my computer - it can be used for good or evil.
I was just wondering because Having read the bible several times as I'm sure you have also, I wonder how is it that ideas I've never heard before
are being expressed. Asking for biblical support no way says your statements are anti-biblical, just I don't see where you're coming from. You can certainly express your views here. :Chinscratch:

I'm on a very short break...visited TM and read the ongoing discussion which is including some discussion of "flesh"... I did a very quick study a few months ago because I was interested in the statement in Eph 5:30 for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.  In my study I learned that whenever "his" flesh is mentioned it has to do with Jesus' flesh...

The scriptures:
Acts 2:31; Eph 2:15; Eph 5:30; Col 1:22; He 5:7; Heb 10:20;
and also checked 1 Cor 15:39-40

Also 1 Cor 15:39-40 gave me some further things to ponder...  just never did pursue this pondering as I became interested in some other Scriptural "truth"... 

must run... just wanted to share this... I more often TAKE from Tentmaker Forum, it's not often that I can perhaps GIVE.   

Well the clock beckons me onward...

Quote from: seekfirst on December 30, 2012, 11:24:30 PM
I'm on a very short break...visited TM and read the ongoing discussion which is including some discussion of "flesh"... I did a very quick study a few months ago because I was interested in the statement in Eph 5:30 for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.  In my study I learned that whenever "his" flesh is mentioned it has to do with Jesus' flesh...

The scriptures:
Acts 2:31; Eph 2:15; Eph 5:30; Col 1:22; He 5:7; Heb 10:20;
and also checked 1 Cor 15:39-40

Also 1 Cor 15:39-40 gave me some further things to ponder...  just never did pursue this pondering as I became interested in some other Scriptural "truth"... 

must run... just wanted to share this... I more often TAKE from Tentmaker Forum, it's not often that I can perhaps GIVE.   

Well the clock beckons me onward...

Hi Seek,

This has always been a bit of a mystery to me.  We know that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.  But, apparently, flesh and bone can.




Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.--Luke 24:39


John 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."


1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched--this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.


So this glorified body of Jesus is flesh.  Paul tells us there are different kinds of flesh


All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.

--1 Cor 15:39-40


But the glorified body does not seem to have blood--it is flesh and bone.  So, what is the blood and why is it not mentioned?


For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.--Lev 17:11

Hebrews 9:22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.


Leviticus 17:14 because the life of every creature is its blood. That is why I have said to the Israelites, "You must not eat the blood of any creature, because the life of every creature is its blood; anyone who eats it must be cut off."


Now, I'm sure someone must have some ideas about this. My thoughts...  The life of every creature is its blood.  But we are a new creation.  Because we share his atoning blood, our life is in Christ.  And His Spirit is become our life's blood.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.--Rom 8:2


When God promises that all flesh shall see him, what flesh is he talking about?


And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.--Isa 45

And just as we have borne the image of the man made of dust, we will also bear the image of the heavenly man. --1 Cor 15:49

=====================


Hi Molly, I do have a few thoughts, but until Jan 2 --  8 PM, I won't have time to share... so here's  a site that I use almost exclusively for Strongs, (KJV), and the Jamieson,Faucett,Brown commentary that I have found very helpful...

http://www.dabhand.org/Bible_XRef.htm 

also maybe start another thread...   All flesh shall see the glory of the Lord  .... or some such title...

I cannot identify evil to be understood, but I do believe that the Word of God identifies it's beginning and origin.
These are truths that can be debated and certainly have been, but still they are truths and unless they can be refuted within His Word, they must remain truths to build on.
When a believer begins to build on a solid truth, it will be sound, though it may leave may questions as to the why, it will be a foundation to grow with understanding and
wisdom to follow. But it seems that religion and theology, in the past, along with mythical beliefs and fabled stories created answers and reasons that tickle the ears of man's reasoning
and logic and it has carried on unto today.
Here is a truth (Ihave not found it to be untrue) Jehovah God created/made evil. Genesis 2:9 and Isa. 45:7.
And as well, Jehovah God made/created the adversary(Col. 1:16 & Jo.1:3)
If there is verse and scripture that reads different, please reveal it to me. For me this knowledge has given me much rest and relief, just as the truth that Jesus
is the Savour of all men, and that ALL men will be saved.
Knowing that Jehovah IS, and that nothing is done that is outside of I AM, makes my walk in unity with the Spirit very restfull, and easy yoke; even though I am very much flawed,
yet and still in the hands of The Potter.... I await His return. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Evil is the energy of bad... just at the Holy Spirit is the energy of GOOD.

Oops, I may have made a radical point of view.

Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2012, 01:01:13 AM

Quote from: seekfirst on December 30, 2012, 11:24:30 PM
I'm on a very short break...visited TM and read the ongoing discussion which is including some discussion of "flesh"... I did a very quick study a few months ago because I was interested in the statement in Eph 5:30 for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.  In my study I learned that whenever "his" flesh is mentioned it has to do with Jesus' flesh...

The scriptures:
Acts 2:31; Eph 2:15; Eph 5:30; Col 1:22; He 5:7; Heb 10:20;
and also checked 1 Cor 15:39-40

Also 1 Cor 15:39-40 gave me some further things to ponder...  just never did pursue this pondering as I became interested in some other Scriptural "truth"... 

must run... just wanted to share this... I more often TAKE from Tentmaker Forum, it's not often that I can perhaps GIVE.   

Well the clock beckons me onward...

Hi Seek,

This has always been a bit of a mystery to me.  We know that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.  But, apparently, flesh and bone can.




Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.--Luke 24:39


John 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."


1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched--this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.


So this glorified body of Jesus is flesh.  Paul tells us there are different kinds of flesh


All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.

--1 Cor 15:39-40


But the glorified body does not seem to have blood--it is flesh and bone.  So, what is the blood and why is it not mentioned?


For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.--Lev 17:11

Hebrews 9:22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.


Leviticus 17:14 because the life of every creature is its blood. That is why I have said to the Israelites, "You must not eat the blood of any creature, because the life of every creature is its blood; anyone who eats it must be cut off."


Now, I'm sure someone must have some ideas about this. My thoughts...  The life of every creature is its blood.  But we are a new creation.  Because we share his atoning blood, our life is in Christ.  And His Spirit is become our life's blood.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.--Rom 8:2


When God promises that all flesh shall see him, what flesh is he talking about?


And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.--Isa 45

And just as we have borne the image of the man made of dust, we will also bear the image of the heavenly man. --1 Cor 15:49

Interesting :Peace2: :dsunny:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

--1 Cor 15



[spiritual] "body"

G4983
σῶμα
sōma
so'-mah
From G4982; the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively: - bodily, body, slave.


a spiritual body...pneumatikos sōma...it almost sounds like a contradiction in terms.



"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.--Jn 5:24



"crossed over"

G3327
μεταβαίνω
metabainō
met-ab-ah'ee-no
From G3326 and the base of G939; to change place: - depart, go, pass, remove.



25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

--John 11

" 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

No, but maybe, Joh 11:26  and every one who is living and believing in me shall not die--to the age;
or 26 And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon. Are you believing this?
Now that I can and do believe.

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 30, 2012, 07:38:42 PM
As far as I can tell here they are.
Psalm 78:41
Yes, again and again they tempted God, And limited the Holy One of Israel
1 Thessalonians 3:5

1 Thess. 3:5
For this reason, when I could no longer endure it, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor might be in vain.

1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.


James 1:12-15
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

"....since I have presented at least a half dozen scriptures or so over the course of this conversation that present (IMO) a wider vista on the subject."

Where is the wider vista? The post has to do with identifying evil. I have simply stated what I have read, that God planted the sprout of evil in the very beginning. I didn't make it up. God introduced evil for a working part in His creation. I don't say I understand it, but He did it. I have read that God tempts no man and believe it. I have read that through the blood of Jesus we can overcome evil. My wondering is since HE SAID He created evil why it is not accepted as a truth?
And as far as the "red picture" there can be many views. But if the three square inches are false then the whole picture will be an illusion.

Actually I think you did make it up. Where do you see that God planted a sprout of evil? God never introduced evil. We did.

"Every man sins when he is drawn away by his own lust and enticed. Lust conceives sin, sin conceives death.

Ded, I like your humor. I get weary of the doomsday rhetoric. We have a gospel of hope, do we not?

Are sin and evil necessarily the same?  John you are writing of sin but the topic is evil. Sinning is evil but is evil sin?  That may be an assumption we make automatically. This just popped up in my head haven't thought about it too much. Just throwing it out there.

Quote from: eaglesway on December 31, 2012, 08:45:10 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 30, 2012, 07:38:42 PM
As far as I can tell here they are.
Psalm 78:41
Yes, again and again they tempted God, And limited the Holy One of Israel
1 Thessalonians 3:5

1 Thess. 3:5
For this reason, when I could no longer endure it, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor might be in vain.

1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.


James 1:12-15
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

"....since I have presented at least a half dozen scriptures or so over the course of this conversation that present (IMO) a wider vista on the subject."

Where is the wider vista? The post has to do with identifying evil. I have simply stated what I have read, that God planted the sprout of evil in the very beginning. I didn't make it up. God introduced evil for a working part in His creation. I don't say I understand it, but He did it. I have read that God tempts no man and believe it. I have read that through the blood of Jesus we can overcome evil. My wondering is since HE SAID He created evil why it is not accepted as a truth?
And as far as the "red picture" there can be many views. But if the three square inches are false then the whole picture will be an illusion.

Actually I think you did make it up. Where do you see that God planted a sprout of evil? God never introduced evil. We did.

"Every man sins when he is drawn away by his own lust and enticed. Lust conceives sin, sin conceives death.

Gen 2:9  and Jehovah God causeth to sprout from the ground every tree desirable for appearance, and good for food, and the tree of life in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Jehovah God wanted evil in His creation, it's His creation. Just how would man know GOOD if he had nothing to compare it to?
How would we today know GOOD if it were not for evil?
Did Jehovah God in all His wisdom KNOW that He would have need for such a thing as evil? I say yes.
Jehovah God sees that it is a step..Gen 3:22  And Jehovah God saith, `Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age,' --

Quote from: redhotmagma on December 31, 2012, 01:47:09 PM
Are sin and evil necessarily the same?  John you are writing of sin but the topic is evil. Sinning is evil but is evil sin?  That may be an assumption we make automatically. This just popped up in my head haven't thought about it too much. Just throwing it out there.

Good thoughts! :dsunny:

Just throwing this into the pile. IMO,

Sin = not loving in thought, word, or deed. So we know we are all sinners and sin every day to some degree.

Evil is planning to sin, getting some kind of perverse pleasure out of it or hoping to gain status, power, or money by taking advantage of another.
It's like the difference between murder and manslaughter. Sin, by itself, is unplanned, it's just our nature, the way we are. Evil is planned sin.

I'm with Micah. We can't appreciate or understand GOOD without there being Evil... at least not in this life.

God did cause the togogae to sprout[that abominable brach]..but  in the parable of the wheat

and tares..and of God sowing...He said..'an enemy hath done this"  When ye take in the fruit

of an abominable branch[any living thing] it's seeds are scattered  in the field..

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 31, 2012, 04:22:59 PM
Just throwing this into the pile. IMO,

Sin = not loving in thought, word, or deed. So we know we are all sinners and sin every day to some degree.

Evil is planning to sin, getting some kind of perverse pleasure out of it or hoping to gain status, power, or money by taking advantage of another.
It's like the difference between murder and manslaughter. Sin, by itself, is unplanned, it's just our nature, the way we are. Evil is planned sin.

I'm with Micah. We can't appreciate or understand GOOD without there being Evil... at least not in this life.

Thank you and AMEN because there will be NO evil when HE is finished. I am certain that  Jas 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
That for man to be tempted, evil is the nectar that draws the lust that conceives the sin. This I believe is the warfare.
Before the woman ever ate or touch the fruit....".....Gen 3:6  And when the woman saw
she was on her way.
Rom 8:20  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21  Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Quote from: sheila on December 31, 2012, 04:54:47 PM
God did cause the togogae to sprout[that abominable brach]..but  in the parable of the wheat

and tares..and of God sowing...He said..'an enemy hath done this"  When ye take in the fruit

of an abominable branch[any living thing] it's seeds are scattered  in the field..

You are correct 100% ".....'an enemy hath done this" but that enemy had to come from somewhere right?
IMO, when I began to seek a truth and it was opened(just a small sliver of a crack) that ALL that happens is from a cause and that the CAUSE must always be Jehovah God the Creator, all that I had learned and believed in had to be closed and shut, for me the "blame game" had ceased; no longer would I point a finger at what or who, but now by His grace and His faith and the leading of the Holy Spirit to seek understanding and hope that wisdom would comfort me. Job said something wonderful that helped me greatly
Job 2:10  But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
:dsunny:

Genesis.....4;7 ..if tho doest good,shalt thou not be accepted?  But if thou doest Not good...

   sin croucheth at the door..and you are his desire, you shoudl rule over him..

   Rejoice not..that the evil spirits are subject to you..but that your name is written in heaven..

   He wants us to rule over wickedness..and it not rule us..

   Because the flesh is weak..and man has been overcome...Jesus Christ come..and let us know

  our failures in this wrestling match..will not be held against us. And freely gives us the gift of life

and forgiveness..

the abominable branch is also the abomination of desolation...........it misleads many and they

serve an evil god..a god of injustice,cruel..a monster god...Not the God of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob

and the God of Love that Jesus Christ revealed..

   Now,we have the Branch of Jesse[Jesus Christ] and HE SHALL RULE UNTIL THE LAST ENEMY

  DEATH[fruitage of evil branch] is placed under His feet.   He received Dominion and Kingship

  to overcome All the power of the enemy..........PRAISE GOD...THAT THE SON COMES TO SET

  THE WHOLE GROANING CREATION FREE!!!!!!

well said,Micah. Amen

God, being infinite, Did not need to create angels. (or man for that matter)
He used one of these created angels to tempt man (remember my first lesson - "where there is no temptation, there is no virtue')
Sin = not loving, entered the world when that man considered what someone else said of more importance than what God said.
This was disrespect toward God. This was disrespect for Jesus - the word of God made flesh.

Regardless of how good something sounds or how right and true, IMO, we disrespect God when we
put what anyone else says over his plain direct word.
That's why I have the signature I do at the bottom. I want to hear, "Well done, good and faithful servant" - you believed
my word and trusted I would never decieve or mislead you.

Quote from: sheila on December 31, 2012, 05:20:36 PM
well said,Micah. Amen

Thank you, we ARE blessed! :dsunny:

Psa 18:46  Jehovah liveth; and blessed be my rock; And exalted be the God of my salvation,

Quote from: MicahJehovah God sees that it is a step..Gen 3:22  And Jehovah God saith, `Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age,'

Why does the man suddenly have knowledge of good and evil?

What has changed?

If we look at babies, when do they gain the knowledge of good and evil?

At what age would a child deliberately lie, for instance?

The man has become like one of us, God says.  How so?

I think it's all about language, --language which is sophisticated enough to form thought and intent.


We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

--2 Cor 10:5

I just feel..this is when conscience come into play[guilt entered in after the act] a sort of internal

   sense of judgement[why else would they hide..with figs leaves..then from Him?]

   God has often declared man does not know his right hand from his left..like sheep without a shepherd

   I think it's a warped conscience...those that put good for evil and evil for good[like satan/serpent did

  that led them into the act]

  He keeps declaring,I will teach you! I will show you whats best for you!......

   maybe it's a lesson to recognize love[and who really loves us] and hates us[evil]...

   He is love..and we are to be made in His image

It's true.  The killers of those children in Ct. undoubtedly know right from wrong.

They just don't care.

They feel the ends justify the means [disarm the American people to usher in the nwo, for instance].

It is a total disregard for the existence, desires, and laws of God.

Right..that is the nature of evil..that same nature that was in the garden..that brought about a new order for man

   death and suffering..so it could rule as prince of this world...without regard/love for anything other than

  itself.

  what should we learn from this...that we should never covet the throne of God to rule over others to

  their harm.  That is evil.  But,we should be like Jesus..a servant to Allserve one another in love.

   Now I have seen many in christendom,islaam..etc..that covet God's throne to Lord it over and kill others

and in pride they think they do God a service...they reign a rain of terror in what authority they have

managed to grasp ove others...see the evil nature of it.

  Now..compare that to He that loves us..that cares about the well-being of all..that shows no respector of

persons. He that fufills the needs of His creation..that is generous[not covetous] bountiful in giving[not

penurious]

   Jesus testified that the Prince of this world's works were wicked.

Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2012, 06:07:57 PM

Quote from: MicahJehovah God sees that it is a step..Gen 3:22  And Jehovah God saith, `Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age,'

Why does the man suddenly have knowledge of good and evil?

What has changed?

If we look at babies, when do they gain the knowledge of good and evil?

At what age would a child deliberately lie, for instance?

The man has become like one of us, God says.  How so?

I think it's all about language, --language which is sophisticated enough to form thought and intent.


We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

--2 Cor 10:5

"suddenly" have knowledge, yes perhaps, imo, but i believe it just had to start. The warefare had to begin.
I don't think, imo, that anything changed, imo, it was "built in" when man became a living soul.
Babies, don't gain it, the vanity of evil waits. imo
At what age, probably when the child "feels" there is a punishment, I don't really know. But the creature/creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope, Ro. 8:20
"The man has become like one of us, God says.  How so?" Knowing there is a difference. imo
In my opinion, that "language" is what man listens to until drawn by the Father.
Not all men will do the evil as others, but the possibility of doing it is there.
Again, imo, that beam in the eye, it can see the error of another, but is so big in the beholders eye that he cannot see that the same error, is embedded in his own eye, he just can't see it. Judge not.....lest you be judged.
Forgiveness, imo, is one of the hardest accomplishments for a believer; we say it but, is the beam still there?

It's interesting you should say that Micah. John McArthur is one of the most famous proponents of ET -
he even wrote his own (expensive) study bible. He also wrote an entire book about forgiveness over 20 years ago, just titled "Forgiveness"
It was a great book. A shame he can write so eloquently about forgiveness as he condemns others(through his loving God) to a fiery, eternal hell.

Hey Ded

Hey Daj,
I didn't say or even think that your statements were anti-biblical. I just didn't have any idea what scripture you were using to support it.

  IMO, some of your ideas can't be backed by scripture.


Don't back out now show me at least the idea that you think is most vague.
If you go forward you and I will be sharper.
I would rather take the chance of being wrong and sharper,
then safe and dull. "Engarde"

Quote from: sheila on December 31, 2012, 06:24:43 PM
I just feel..this is when conscience come into play[guilt entered in after the act] a sort of internal

   sense of judgement[why else would they hide..with figs leaves..then from Him?]

   God has often declared man does not know his right hand from his left..like sheep without a shepherd

   I think it's a warped conscience...those that put good for evil and evil for good[like satan/serpent did

  that led them into the act]

  He keeps declaring,I will teach you! I will show you whats best for you!......

   maybe it's a lesson to recognize love[and who really loves us] and hates us[evil]...

   He is love..and we are to be made in His image

I think that is very close to it Sheila, something like man was connected to God's BEING, and lived by that connection with the I AM until the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. In two ways, in the breaking of the command and in the subjection to the teaching of the Father of lies- that connection was broken. Now we were living by a compass with no true north. True north is the heart of God and intimate fellowship with Him. (They walked with the voice of God in the cool of the garden)

Maybe, that's why we are reconnected by the implantation of the word of truth, born again by an incorruptible seed and the receiving of the Holy Spirit(breath of God)- Jesus saying , " the wind blows where it wills and you hear the sound of it but you don't know from whence it comes nor where it is going"- Life in the Spirit as a relationship with the wind being likened unto living in the I AM, connected to the BEING of God, walking in His Spirit.

Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2012, 06:07:57 PM

Quote from: MicahJehovah God sees that it is a step..Gen 3:22  And Jehovah God saith, `Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age,'

Why does the man suddenly have knowledge of good and evil?

What has changed?

If we look at babies, when do they gain the knowledge of good and evil?

At what age would a child deliberately lie, for instance?

The man has become like one of us, God says.  How so?

I think it's all about language, --language which is sophisticated enough to form thought and intent.


We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

--2 Cor 10:5

Molly IMO Flesh and Blood did not reveal this to you.
When we start with you and listen as we go toward ,
Molly we will end up singing the same song here .
Imo what you have touched on in the post .
Is one of the most exciting ways to start the New 

"You are free to eat from any tree of the garden, 17 but you must not eat[m] from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for on the day you eat from it, you will certainly die."

If you spoke a sentence like the above.
You would have to assume the listener has some sort understanding.
We don't hear God's we see God's voice.
Adam saw what God was saying to him.
Did Adam see death. Did he see the tree.

Good and Evil where on that tree.

Beautifully said,Ew.. Molly;.the thought and intent of the heart[evil or good] :iagree:

Perhaps, just perhaps when...Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; .......
This was the birth of the conscience?

" Maybe, that's why we are reconnected by the implantation of the word of truth, born again by an incorruptible seed and the receiving of the Holy Spirit(breath of God)- Jesus saying , " the wind blows where it wills and you hear the sound of it but you don't know from whence it comes nor where it is going"- Life in the Spirit as a relationship with the wind being likened unto living in the I AM, connected to the BEING of God, walking in His Spirit." EW

I believe you nailed it! :dsunny:

you  got that right!! Micah...motives laid bare of the heart.....no hidden thing will not be revealed

Just as when God gave all men separate lanuages at the tower of Babel
The language he gave Adam was perfectly understandable to him and though he did not know what death was experientially, he did know what it meant intellectually, otherwise Eve wouldn't have offered her feeble reply of, "But God says if we eat it (and here she adds to the word of God) or even touch it we will die." The being didn't argue with her saying "How do you know dying's is a bad thing if you've never seen it?" Then IMO when she touched the fruit and didn't die - based on her addition to scripture - it made it seem like the being was telling the truth.

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 31, 2012, 09:26:52 PM
Just as when God gave all men separate lanuages at the tower of Babel
The language he gave Adam was perfectly understandable to him and though he did not know what death was experientially, he did know what it meant intellectually, otherwise Eve wouldn't have offered her feeble reply of, "But God says if we eat it (and here she adds to the word of God) or even touch it we will die." The being didn't argue with her saying "How do you know dying's is a bad thing if you've never seen it?" Then IMO when she touched the fruit and didn't die - based on her addition to scripture - it made it seem like the being was telling the truth.

Yes I believe that man/woman had knowledge, but with nothing to compare what that knowledge held, like the difference between good a evil, what good or bad would empty knowledge offer? I don't know if that came out with any sense.  :sigh:

For the word of God is living....and active.Sharper than any double edged sword[flaming sword that

guards the way to tol?] It penetrates..even to dividing soul and spirit........joints and marrow

  it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.  Nothing in all creation is hidden in God's sight

   Everything is uncovered and laid bare[truth] before the eyes of Him..to whom we must give an account

The LORD God sent the man out and sealed up the garden.


24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.


The man now not only has no access to the tree of life, he also has no access to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

So now the man must die, but we see the LORD has left the garden with him, and is talking to him about good and evil.  Abel listens.  Cain doesn't.


Deuteronomy 8:3 He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your fathers had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD.

Micah, Maybe it's a little like when I was a little kid and had never actually seen death (I was 13 my first time actually seeing it before my eyes as a drunk driver ran over a friend of mine maybe 10 yards away as we walked home from school) I certainly knew what death was before then, but the experience certainly changed me. Why would Adam have hidden from God immediately after the apple incident if he didn't fear what may happen?
The legend is that Siddhartha was kept in his castle and was never told about death or that anything bad ever happened to anybody. (He was a prince) and the king had forbid anyone even talking about anything bad in front of the prince. When he escaped, he saw plenty of bad - it was real life. He knew what he was seeing but never experienced it before.
Maybe it is how Adam knew how to name all the animals. As soon as he saw the animal, he "knew" what it should be named. IMO, he didn't look at a deer and think "HMMM what should I call this thing". IMO it was "Cool! Here comes a deer"
Anyway, I like this group makes me think of "Things that make me go Hmm." :Chinscratch:

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 31, 2012, 09:17:31 PM
" Maybe, that's why we are reconnected by the implantation of the word of truth, born again by an incorruptible seed and the receiving of the Holy Spirit(breath of God)- Jesus saying , " the wind blows where it wills and you hear the sound of it but you don't know from whence it comes nor where it is going"- Life in the Spirit as a relationship with the wind being likened unto living in the I AM, connected to the BEING of God, walking in His Spirit." EW

I believe you nailed it! :dsunny:

Dunamis is divine ischus applied in order to achieve certain earthly results.

Wow so many amazing posts :cloud9:

If you see the garden of Eden as the spirit, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil as the mind connected directly to "the world", and the tree of life as the heart connected directly to God........

When we eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil the highest statement in our being is "I Know" or, "I Know What I Know"

In such a state a flaming sword keeps us out of the garden, we walk in the flesh. The "lake of fire" is like the flaming sword, it is for all those who have not eaten of the tree of life, which is Jesus. They must pass through it to enter the garden of the spirit.

John saw the flames in the eyes of Jesus- flames of light consuming darkness, flames of life consuming death.

IMO, This is the process to entering and abiding in, the light- walking among the stones of fire.

"Every hidden thing will be brought to light"- The lake of fire is immersion in the light. Jesus is the light

"You would have me to know truth in my inner man"  The light shines in the darkness and the darkness cannot overcome it. The veil is pierced. We see ourselves in James' mirror and we do not walk away and forget what we saw.

"A broken and a contrite heart you will not cast away"  Once pride is pierced, The flaming sword is removed and entrance to the garden restored  see Isaiah 27 1-3!

"The sacrifices of God are a broken and a contrite heart"  Receiviing Jesus is not an intellectual exercize, it is "having in you the same attitude which was in Christ Jesus", which is the mark of the prize of the upward call of God. Repentance is a change of attitude.

"I dwell in the high and holy place and with the one who has a broken and a contrite heart"  In order to stay in "the garden"(walk in the spirit) we must remain "transparent", confessing when transgressing and receiving light- allowing the flaming eyes to reach EVER DEEPER INTO OUR BEING (the holy of holies) and draw us into the I AM

"If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"  We have boldness by this new and living way to enter the holy of holies(intimate fellowship with God and one another by the transparency granted by grace, forgiveness, humility, the blood)

"The one who confesses and forsakes their sin will obtain mercy; the one who hides their transgression will not prosper"  As long as we do this, "confess your faults one to another and pray for one another that you may be healed" , not posturing as "righteous ones" before one another, but seeking the true righteousness of humilty, we dwell "in the light" as "children of the day" and we have no fear of "aionian pur" or "aionian kolassis"- we have passed from death into life.

"Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father".  As each one, in their own order, is "consumed in light", their heart "pierced within them", their secret attitudes "exposed"- they will drop to their knees in humble adoration and give glory to the one who paid so high a price to redeem them- they will each be "changed' and for each of them the fire that burned will become the light that shines from the face and the flames that burn from within their own eyes because they have been filled up to the fulness of God, He is now ALL IN ALL IN THEM.

When at last the last knee drops, death will have been consumed in the fire, darkness will be no more, all will be light for as Paul said to the Ephesians, "Every thing that is brought to the light becomes light."

For it is God who has said "Light shall shine out of darkness" to give us the light of the knowledge of the Glory of God in the Face of Jesus Christ"!

Now the highest statement in my being is I AM WHAT I AM- and that is whatever God has made me to be, and I am content in it as He fills me with Himself.

For some this process will be complete within their mortal lifespan. They are called overcomers. They are not perfect as "without sin". They are honest with God and men, transparent because of the light of the grace of God that is in them by relationship with Jesus and the Father- and pressing onward thrugh trial, failure, difficulty and tribulation into the light.


MAKE NO DEAL WITH THE DARKNESS IN YOU< THAT IS THE DEAL THAT WILL BRING YOU INTO "KOLASSIS"

But fear not little ones, all discipline is in the moment unpleasant, but when it is finished it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 31, 2012, 10:33:36 PM
Micah, Maybe it's a little like when I was a little kid and had never actually seen death (I was 13 my first time actually seeing it before my eyes as a drunk driver ran over a friend of mine maybe 10 yards away as we walked home from school) I certainly knew what death was before then, but the experience certainly changed me. Why would Adam have hidden from God immediately after the apple incident if he didn't fear what may happen?
The legend is that Siddhartha was kept in his castle and was never told about death or that anything bad ever happened to anybody. (He was a prince) and the king had forbid anyone even talking about anything bad in front of the prince. When he escaped, he saw plenty of bad - it was real life. He knew what he was seeing but never experienced it before.
Maybe it is how Adam knew how to name all the animals. As soon as he saw the animal, he "knew" what it should be named. IMO, he didn't look at a deer and think "HMMM what should I call this thing". IMO it was "Cool! Here comes a deer"
Anyway, I like this group makes me think of "Things that make me go Hmm." :Chinscratch:

My only question would be, why did it have to be a "drunk" driver, any driver can do that. imo. And also, where did the idea that it was an "apple" come from, maybe it was a mango or a pear? The fruit of the tree imo, has nothing to do with any agriculture value. I don't know and have given no thought as to how or why Adam named all the beasts and creatures, should I have, I would center on the serpent, knowing it was not a snake. :dsunny:

Eaglesway, your post #82 puts me in the thought I have considered, of how perhaps the Bible is more a book of parables rather than literal. I do not exclude the historic and literal view and value, but what does a literal and historic view give us but a human religious history to talk about? No, I believe, imo, that you friend, have seen. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

No micah, the apple incident I was talking about was Adams computer :laughing7:
I know it probably was n't an apple
It sounded weird to say the fruit incident. :thumbsup:

Quote from: ded2daworld on January 01, 2013, 02:10:04 AM
No micah, the apple incident I was talking about was Adams computer :laughing7:
I know it probably was n't an apple
It sounded weird to say the fruit incident. :thumbsup:

Hey my friend, I meant no offence and I totally understand the mistake, Apple for MacIntosh, there is a Golden Delicious, and Pink Lady and a pear...and pears got names too! :laugh: I love you you man(taken from Cheech and Chong) hope you don't mind. :dsunny:

Somebody said to me, I know it's true because I saw it on tv with my own eyes.




Ques:  Do you believe the television or do you believe your lying eyes?


Ans:  Neither.  Believe the Holy Spirit.




Virtual backlot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clnozSXyF4k


Robbie Parker press conference, Sandy Hook parent, day after


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gxl6qFqtX8Y



This post may self destruct.

3 times I have been where "news" was happening. The next day, when I saw or read the reporters accounts, I thought we had witnessed 2 seperate events. TV and newspapers ALWAYS tell people what they want to hear and always try to make stories appear much more interesting and/or dramatic than they are. How many times have we seen a reporter shove a microphone into the face of a greiving parent and say, "You're child has just been shot/murdered/abducted/abused (whatever)... How do you feel right now? or How do feel about that?

I was also a stand-in for Brian Dennehy in the movie Coccoon: The return. I was amazed at how different the actual movie was from what was happening while we were on set and filming. For instance, Brian was never even there for the filming. It was my body and his head when it was a face shot. We filmed in Florida and his head shots were done against a green screen in California (as was his voice for his lines) so I learned if it is at the movies, on TV or in the news, things didn't really happen the way it's shown to you. E.G. the boat was made to look like it was out on the open ocean. It never left the dock. It was turned so that each actors lines had the open sea in back of them. Side note. They accidentally dropped the main camera in the water near the end of shooting. They had to reshoot that day and they used the only identical camera they had for a spare.

You're a movie star?  :mshock:

I'm talking to a movie star?   :faint:

Hardly. A stand-in is pretty low on the totem pole.
Jessica Tandy, Hume Cronin, Wilford Brimley, Steve Gutenberg,
Don Ameche - they were stars but they were just ordinary people.
They acted and talked just like everyone else that works for a living.
Maybe cuz they were all older. Steve Gutenberg was a little stand-offish.
and Courtney Cox wasn't a big star yet. She and Tahnee Welch were funny and friendly.
Only Gutenberg refused to eat with the rest of us. Unusual, but stars and standins all ate together at
the catered meals and Steve preferred to eat alone in his trailer.

I was at Zucotti Park the day after they cleared Occupy Wall Street. Tere were maybe a hundred people walking around the park talking, including an elderly lady from the neighborhood(happy ot have her park back :o) and some local moms with their children, as well as about 50 protesters standing in small groups just talking.

The park was still cordoned off with barriers, only one 4 foot wide opening through which people were entering and exiting. Nothing signfigant was going on, and I was there taking photographs.  All of the sudden about six police in riot gear came running into the park and stood in front of the exit(no one could exit).

As people began to chant, "This is a peaceful protest!" and turned their attention to those half dozen police about 50 more police in riot gear came over the other side and began to push people- including the locals who were there with little children etc.  One young man was pushed over a park bench and hit his head on the sidewalk. I saw the little old lady scrambling to avoid the melee. Not one person raised a finger to the police.

The next day on the cover of the NY POST there was this picture of the kid with the bleeding head and a police man pushing him. It read,

POLICE PUT DOWN RIOT BY OCCUPY WALL STREET AT ZUCOTTI PARK.

yep..truth is the enemy of the prince of this world.....deception is his cloak

EW, your post#82 was powerful, particularly the end. I wish I could come to that place of being content with what God has made (i.e. myself). My propensity to sin feels like a reproachful ball and chain that too often gets the best of me. I long to be free. EW, I will remind myself of what you said--"I press onward through trial, failure, difficulty and tribulation into the light".

Oh my gosh eaglesway... that's horrifying. So sad. So, so sad.

All these posts about movies and TV remind me of the probable backgrounds behind the terms "TV programming" and "TV program."  Before computers, programming was a term much used in the psychology industry, which has had a huge influence on advertising, education, news coverage (aka, spin), and lots of other things.  Most of what you see, hear, and read is biased toward a certain goal, and it is not a goal that is necessarily good for you.  To this day, gatekeepers try to prevent those who are going into the Kingdom from going in.  They are and will be overruled.   

Films, movies, newspapers are propaganda. They want you to change your worldview to the worldview presented to you.
Love not the world or the things in it.

Not that I expect to get any sympathy for this on here but...

I've been trying to change their timeline for years.

You can't wake people up--they refuse to wake up.

You can't do it by changing events.  They just regroup and absorb the change and nullify it.

It can be --and it has been--delayed.  But how to change it?

I know there must be a way.


That is the meaning of the rock cut from the mountain, though not by human hands, that crushed to pieces the statue of iron, bronze, clay, silver, and gold. The great God was showing the king what will happen in the future. The dream is true, and its meaning is certain."  --Dan 2:45

Quote from: Deena on January 01, 2013, 06:32:24 PM
EW, your post#82 was powerful, particularly the end. I wish I could come to that place of being content with what God has made (i.e. myself). My propensity to sin feels like a reproachful ball and chain that too often gets the best of me. I long to be free. EW, I will remind myself of what you said--"I press onward through trial, failure, difficulty and tribulation into the light".

God bless you Deena. There is so much beauty in every soul. Finding the pathway to rest within our purpose seems to be so convoluted sometimes that really, it ought to make us all log for home, when we will ALL be FREE. But like Don Quixote, I keep believing that we can, in some measure, experience that beauty and freedom in this life- even as we struggle with sin, strife and disappointment. Grace & Peace :o)

Quote from: Molly on January 02, 2013, 01:45:38 AM
Not that I expect to get any sympathy for this on here but...

I've been trying to change their timeline for years.

You can't wake people up--they refuse to wake up.

You can't do it by changing events.  They just regroup and absorb the change and nullify it.

It can be --and it has been--delayed.  But how to change it?

I know there must be a way.


That is the meaning of the rock cut from the mountain, though not by human hands, that crushed to pieces the statue of iron, bronze, clay, silver, and gold. The great God was showing the king what will happen in the future. The dream is true, and its meaning is certain."  --Dan 2:45

I came to realize at some point that you cannot set up the Kingdom by means of the arm of flesh - only the stone cut out WITHOUT hands can do that.  Men and empires have been trying to set up the Kingdom ever since the time of Nimrod, most currently the USA.  All will fail, except He for whom the throne of David is reserved.

Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 02, 2013, 03:45:06 AM

Quote from: Molly on January 02, 2013, 01:45:38 AM
Not that I expect to get any sympathy for this on here but...

I've been trying to change their timeline for years.

You can't wake people up--they refuse to wake up.

You can't do it by changing events.  They just regroup and absorb the change and nullify it.

It can be --and it has been--delayed.  But how to change it?

I know there must be a way.


That is the meaning of the rock cut from the mountain, though not by human hands, that crushed to pieces the statue of iron, bronze, clay, silver, and gold. The great God was showing the king what will happen in the future. The dream is true, and its meaning is certain."  --Dan 2:45

I came to realize at some point that you cannot set up the Kingdom by means of the arm of flesh - only the stone cut out WITHOUT hands can do that.  Men and empires have been trying to set up the Kingdom ever since the time of Nimrod, most currently the USA.  All will fail, except He for whom the throne of David is reserved.

Yes, I agree.  But, I had to prove it to myself lol.

But, that stone that crushes the feet of clay, aren't we part of that stone?



And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.  Mat 16:18

great thread,Molly,Laz............when the Holy spirit dwells in us..and we are walking in this earth..we are

  God's[spirit] feet..and the earth His footstool..Basically that image man made will stumble on the Christ stone

  that is His spirit in us.  works of man's hands always crumble eventually...the work of God...

   'by my spirit' will never fail to succeed in what He sent it for.  when the feet of iron and clay/man's image/works

  is striken in it's foot   God just shakes the dust off His feet..and goes on His way........but what will that

  pile of rubble do...without the spirit of God in it?.

....the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

--Second Amendment





What is it that Diane Feinstein doesn't understand about 'shall not be infringed?'




"infringe"

Act so as to limit or undermine (something);

Quote from: Molly on January 02, 2013, 08:34:43 AM
....the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

--Second Amendment





What is it that Diane Feinstein doesn't understand about 'shall not be infringed?'




"infringe"

Act so as to limit or undermine (something);

"The weapons of our warfare are not carnal..." (2 C 10⁴) This is God's word about what kind of weapon and war establishes His kingdom.  Absolutely NOT guns, bombs, tanks and swords.  The strongholds we pull down are in the heavenlies.  This war is, "Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ..." (1 C 10⁵)

Quote from: Molly on January 02, 2013, 03:51:32 AM

Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 02, 2013, 03:45:06 AM

Quote from: Molly on January 02, 2013, 01:45:38 AM
Not that I expect to get any sympathy for this on here but...

I've been trying to change their timeline for years.

You can't wake people up--they refuse to wake up.

You can't do it by changing events.  They just regroup and absorb the change and nullify it.

It can be --and it has been--delayed.  But how to change it?

I know there must be a way.


That is the meaning of the rock cut from the mountain, though not by human hands, that crushed to pieces the statue of iron, bronze, clay, silver, and gold. The great God was showing the king what will happen in the future. The dream is true, and its meaning is certain."  --Dan 2:45

I came to realize at some point that you cannot set up the Kingdom by means of the arm of flesh - only the stone cut out WITHOUT hands can do that.  Men and empires have been trying to set up the Kingdom ever since the time of Nimrod, most currently the USA.  All will fail, except He for whom the throne of David is reserved.

Yes, I agree.  But, I had to prove it to myself lol.

But, that stone that crushes the feet of clay, aren't we part of that stone?



And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.  Mat 16:18

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." (John 18³⁶)

God sets up His kingdom, birthing Adam humans into it by marrying them with the Holy Spirit and rebirthing them into God.  There is not some other king yet to come.  Jesus' kingdom is the kingdom of God.  His servants, those that follow Him, do NOT fight with carnal weapons to achieve Jesus' reign in the earth.  "The weapons of our warfare are not carnal..." (2 C 104)  This is not going to change.  They, "...are mighty through God."  What is being won is the thoughts in the hearts of men, that they would come to walk in a consciousness of God, aligned with His will.  This is His kingdom.  It is within.  And, "The glory of the knowledge of the LORD will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea."

The Image with the head of Gold was ground to powder and blown away when the Roman Empire became the Holy Roman Empire.  That being fulfilled is Preterism.  Of the four beasts of Daniel that apply to our times, the first three of them have had their day.  This also is Preterism.  We are now in the time of the fourth beast, the United Nations world government that is yet maturing.  Not all its horns are grown in.  This is Futurism.  That it is a beast, the flesh's animal impulses, is Symbolism.

Are we not to act as Jesus would act? Do we not continually pray to be conformed to the image of his Son?
Did Jesus not say, "turn the other cheek and rejoice when others spitefully abuse you? Did Jesus ever encourage retaliation or revenge? Did Jesus ever defend himself even though he easily could have?
Do we pray for others to know Jesus so that they can act like someone else?
I think the difference was that in the Old testament, everything was concerned with the present life. That is not the covenant which we are under. We are under a covenant where God says, "vengeance is MINE" and "I will repay" Since God's repayment to us "pressed down, stirred and shaken up , then filled to overflowing"
What are we concerned with? Keeping the material blessings that came from God in the first place? The life that came from God in the first place. Are we trusting guns or God? Does anything happen that God does not allow?
Does it please God for us to act like Jesus and realize we are just strangers in a strange land for a brief time and that ALL we have is on loan from God? Or is God more pleased when we spend HIS money on guns, self defense, target practice, alarm systems and survivalist strategies?

God speaks to some one way and to others, another. After much prayer and contemplation, Be sure of what you are called to do

Every time a major population is disarmed by their government in modern history, there is a genocide threatening in the wings.   I am not in the mood to be a victim of a genocide, nor do I believe God wants me to be such since I was born in a country whose highest law specifically meant to safeguard against such.  This is my birthright that my fellow countrymen want to sell for a bowl of pottage.

He who doesn't know history is doomed to repeat it.

So I will repeat: 

What is it that people do not understand about shall not be infringed?



List of Genocides--the human cost of gun control:

Ottoman Turkey 1915-1917
Armenians (mostly Christians)
1-1.5 million
Art. 166, Pen. Code, 1866
& 1911 Proclamation, 1915 • Permits required •Government list of owners
•Ban on possession

Soviet Union 1929-1945
Political opponents;
farming communities
20 million
Resolutions, 1918
Decree, July 12, 1920
Art. 59 & 182, Pen. code, 1926 •Licensing of owners
•Ban on possession
•Severe penalties

Nazi Germany
& Occupied Europe 1933-1945
Political opponents;
Jews; Gypsies;
critics; "examples"
20 million
Law on Firearms & Ammun., 1928
Weapon Law, March 18, 1938
Regulations against Jews, 1938 •Registration & Licensing
•Stricter handgun laws
•Ban on possession

China, Nationalist 1927-1949
Political opponents;
army conscripts; others
10 million
Art. 205, Crim. Code, 1914
Art. 186-87, Crim. Code, 1935 •Government permit system
•Ban on private ownership

China, Red 1949-1952
1957-1960
1966-1976
Political opponents;
Rural populations
Enemies of the state
20-35 million
Act of Feb. 20, 1951
Act of Oct. 22, 1957 •Prison or death to "counter-revolutionary criminals" and anyone resisting any government program
•Death penalty for supply guns to such "criminals"

Guatemala 1960-1981
Mayans & other Indians;
political enemies
100,000-200,000
Decree 36, Nov 25 •Act of 1932
Decree 386, 1947
Decree 283, 1964 •Register guns & owners •Licensing with high fees
•Prohibit carrying guns
•Bans on guns, sharp tools
•Confiscation powers
Uganda 1971-1979 Christians
Political enemies 300,000 Firearms Ordinance, 1955
Firearms Act, 1970 •Register all guns & owners •Licenses for transactions
•Warrantless searches •Confiscation powers

Cambodia
(Khmer Rouge) 1975-1979
Educated Persons;
Political enemies
2 million
Art. 322-328, Penal Code
Royal Ordinance 55, 1938 •Licenses for guns, owners, ammunition & transactions
•Photo ID with fingerprints
•License inspected quarterly

Rwanda 1994
Tutsi people
800,000
Decree-Law No. 12, 1979 •Register guns, owners, ammunition •Owners must justify need •Concealable guns illegal •Confiscating powers




http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/deathgc.htm

I guess the difference is I was talking about the Bible
and you were talking about the constitution.  :Peace2:
I'm not intertested in bad things happening to me or my family either but
I am interested in rejoicing and praising God "In ALL things"
as the bible suggests.

And if you want to talk about entire countries, what happened to the Jews
when other countries decimated them at the allowance and plan of God?

Php 3:20  For our citizenship is in the heavens, whence also a Saviour we await--the Lord Jesus Christ--
Php 3:21  who shall transform the body of our humiliation to its becoming conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working of his power, even to subject to himself the all things.

That tells me who I vote for :dsunny:

Micah - absolutely  :thumbsup:

Given the nominal subject of this thread, yeah I know all about thread drift, I noticed this article today, and decided to link it, as it seemed to bear on what we're discussing [can't vouch for the author]:

http://www.stuartwilde.com/2013/01/understanding-global-demonic-possession-through-face-recognition/

WOW!

Laz - I read the whole article. I would like to have seen a photo of the author.
I think he's either insane or just rying to make a buck selling stuff to "help" someone
think the way he does.
Shouldn't the reverse have been true? Based on what this "Wilde" man said, everyone that looked at Jesus should have been
instantly aware of the intense love within him, the God incarnate. - They didn't. He was so ordinary looking he had to be pointed out and "his look was such that NONE would desire him"
Down through history people have tried to label a mentality or prediliction based solely on physical appearances - just one more way for someone to say to another "You are NOT my brother - I am saved and love God - you hate God and are evil." :Peace2:

Quote from: Molly on January 02, 2013, 03:07:38 PM
Every time a major population is disarmed by their government in modern history, there is a genocide threatening in the wings.   I am not in the mood to be a victim of a genocide, nor do I believe God wants me to be such since I was born in a country whose highest law specifically meant to safeguard against such.  This is my birthright that my fellow countrymen want to sell for a bowl of pottage.

He who doesn't know history is doomed to repeat it.

So I will repeat: 

What is it that people do not understand about shall not be infringed?

http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/deathgc.htm

I believe there are just wars.  God's command says, "You shall not kill."  That includes me.  You shall not kill me.  If I love the Lord my God with all my heart, mind, soul, and strength, then I act with force that you shall not kill me and my family, upholding God's Law.  This kind of reasoning is the basis for just war.

When the religious establishment came in the middle of the night to arrest Jesus in the garden where Jesus and 11 of His disciples were resting and praying, they came "with swords, and staves, and torches."  Jesus had asked His disciples if they had a sword.  Whether it was one or two, I don't remember; but, He told them what they had was sufficient.  Peter used the sword to cut off the ear of Malkus the High Priest's servant.  Jesus reattached the ear, healing it.  And said, "...unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?" (Jn 18¹¹)  "Then said Jesus unto him,...all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." (Mt 26⁵²)  I'm very ambivalent.  I thought I was a radical pacifist for years; yet, I believed others can be right bearing arms.

At a summer camp for adults associated with Charismatic "Home Churches" it was asked how many were against bearing arms, that is, if they were radical pacifists?  There were about 1/3 of them.  1/3 believed in just war and fighting with guns to keep free.  The ones in the middle were sympathizers with one side or another.

I like your post James.  Not by you, but I believe some mis-use or simply with good intentions, don't understand the issue.  When things were about to "turn", and the disciples were about to be in a more dangerous situation of being "hunted and harassed", Jesus told them to bring a sword, provisions, and a purse for money.  I believe His statement of "living/dying by the sword" applies to being an aggressor, an abuser, wrongly accosting/taking advantage of others - not what would be considered justifiable (legal and moral) defensive or rescue actions.

For me, as long as I'm able and God provides the way, I'd believe it wrong for me to stand by and let my family suffer, including being assaulted, if I could even attempt to do anything about it.  Personally, I see as a goal to turn the other cheek when someone is accusing me, being unkind, etc. (not abusing back).  However, if it ever came to self (or family) defense of life and limb, I'd hope to be prepared and able to act.

One thing that I believe helps answer all this, I believe God said "don't murder", rather than "don't kill".  The Hebrew apparently says this;


Ex. 20:13
la
not

רְצָח *ִֿ
thrtzch
you-shall-murder

Blessings.

If you want gun control it is simple. Let the owner of a gun by whom a minor commits an act of violence share the penalty. That's freedom with accountability. Let the sellers of illegal firearms receive equal penalties for the commission of violent crimes. Let the owners of illegally modified weapons be subject to equal penalties for any crime committed with that weapon if they did not report it stolen and notify the proper authorities.

IMO our problem is not freedom, it is responsibility and common sense. I think assault weapons should be banned- there is no common sense reason to own one, no more than a civilian should own a bazooka or a hand-grenade. Weapons for reasonable self defense should be legal, but their should be stiff penalties for not securing them away from minors and mentally ill family members.

I laugh myself to tears at Christians who don't think they should be active in politics or vote or try to engage society with Christ-like idealism but believe they should be free to own an assault weapon. I think its a tragic, kind of insane, joke.

Right EW. It's a matter of being "dead to the world" but alive to protecting God's property for him.
I guess I'm weird. I vote but take no other active role in society. I agree with your gun position
100% but for myself, I've never owned or even touched a gun (Been shot at though :doh:) and
don't think it wrong at all for other Christians to own guns as you suggest.
Hey, if only born agains owned guns wouldn't that be cool? :laughing7:

lol!  been shot at though...let me guess..out in the door to door work with jw'S...he..I had a dog

  'sikked' on me..bit me too!

LOL ded I just have to let you know that every time I'm reading something and my daughter sees your avatar she gets really excited and is convinced I'm "texting" Charlie Brown hahahahahaha!!!

I AM Charlie brown, just all grown up and changed my name to avoid the papparazzi :thumbsup:

Quote from: ded2daworld on January 03, 2013, 03:44:35 PM
Right EW. It's a matter of being "dead to the world" but alive to protecting God's property for him.
I guess I'm weird. I vote but take no other active role in society. I agree with your gun position
100% but for myself, I've never owned or even touched a gun (Been shot at though :doh:) and
don't think it wrong at all for other Christians to own guns as you suggest.
Hey, if only born agains owned guns wouldn't that be cool? :laughing7:

I have never owned a gun either. I don't think real born again's as in "The wind blows where it wills and you hear the sound of it but you don't know where it is going or from whence it comes, so it is with everyone who is born of the spirit" rely on guns to much. :o)
But if they did they would probably use them for shooting rats and poisonous snakes and pedophiles and such.

 :sigh:

Let's review.  This is not a matter of opinion.  This is not a matter of --oh I am afraid of guns.  This is not a matter of what makes the media happy. This is not a matter of keep Diane Feinstein happy.

This is a matter of the highest law of the land we live in.



My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.--Hos 4:6



A Well Regulated Militia?

From and by: Ken kiger@northstate.net

Lost in the gun rights debate, much to the detriment of American freedom, is the fact that the Second Amendment is in fact an "AMENDMENT". No "Articles in Amendment" to the Constitution, more commonly referred to as the Bill of Rights, stand alone and each can only be properly understood with reference to what it is that each Article in Amendment amended in the body of the original Constitution. It should not be new knowledge to any American the Constitution was first submitted to Congress on September 17, 1787 WITHOUT ANY AMENDMENTS. After much debate, it was determined that the States would not adopt the Constitution as originally submitted until "further declamatory and restrictive clauses should be added" "in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its (the Constitutions) powers". (This quote is from the Preamble to the Amendments, which was adopted along with the Amendments but is mysteriously missing from nearly all modern copies.) The first ten Amendments were not ratified and added to the Constitution until December 15, 1791.

In this Light:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." What provisions of the original Constitution is it that the Second Amendment is designed to "amend"?

THE SECOND AMENDMENT IS AMENDING THE PROVISIONS IN THE ORIGINAL CONSTITUTION APPLYING TO THE "MILITIA". The States were not satisfied with the powers granted to the "militia" as defined in the original Constitution and required an amendment to "prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers. "(Again quoting from the Preamble to the Amendments.)

What was it about the original Constitutional provisions concerning the "Militia" that was so offensive to the States?

First understand that the word "militia" was used with more than one meaning at the time of the penning of the Constitution. One popular definition used then was one often quoted today, that the "Militia" was every able bodied man owning a gun. As true as this definition is, it only confuses the meaning of the word "militia" as used in the original Constitution that required the Second Amendment to correct. The only definition of "Militia" that had any meaning to the States demanding Amendments is the definition used in the original Constitution. What offended the States then should offend "People" today:

"Militia" in the original Constitution as amended by the Second Amendment is first found in Article 1, Section 8, clause 15, where Congress is granted the power:

"To provide for the calling forth the MILITIA to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrection and repel Invasions." Article 1, Section 8, Clause 16 further empowers Congress:

"To provide for the organizing, arming, and disciplining, the MILITIA, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;" Any "patriot" out there still want to be called a member of the "MILITIA" as defined by the original Constitution?

Article 2, Section 2, Clause 1 empowers: "The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the MILITIA of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States;" The only way the States would accept the "MILITIA" as defined in the original Constitution was that the Federal "MILITIA" be "WELL REGULATED". The States realized that "THE SECURITY OF A FREE STATE" required that the "MILITIA" as originally created in the Constitution be "WELL REGULATED" by a "restrictive clause." How did the States decide to insure that the Constitutional "MILITIA" be "WELL REGULATED"? By demanding that "restrictive clause two" better known as the "Second Amendment" be added to the original Constitution providing:

"THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED."   The States knew that "PEOPLE" with "ARMS" would "WELL REGULATE" the Federal "MILITIA"!

Now read for the first time with the full brightness of the Light of truth:

"A WELL REGULATED MILITIA, BEING NECESSARY TO THE SECURITY OF A FREE STATE, THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED."

For those still overcome by propaganda:

The Second Amendment declares by implication that if the "MILITIA" is not "WELL REGULATED" by "PEOPLE" keeping and bearing arms, the "MILITIA" becomes a threat to the "SECURITY OF A FREE STATE."

The "MILITIA" has no "RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS" in the Second Amendment, rather it is only "THE RIGHT OF THE ""PEOPLE"" TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS (that) SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED."

http://www.godseesyou.com/2nd_well_regulated_militia.html

As a Canadian the American Constitution is something I have no say in.
None the less the profiteers of the military and gun  cultures irritate
irritates my sensitive constitution .     

Genocides instituted by governments on their own people irritates my sensitive constitution.

This may be a wee bit off-topic, but the discussion brought it up from my memory.

One evening, after I had quit the SDA church, I was invited to some doings at the local church where my brother-in-law attended.  The pastor who was speaking there was a Cuban ex-pat, who told some of us who were conversing with him outside after the formal meeting, that he was one of those Castroite soldiers who was waiting on the shore of the Bay of Pigs as the invaders came to shore.  That just amazed me - back in the day, I would have thought of him as the enemy, a faceless Commie soldier (anybody remember "Kill a Commie for Christ"?) who was hostile to Our Cause, and now here we were talking together, and he was my Christian brother. 

Quote from: eaglesway on January 04, 2013, 01:06:25 AM
I have never owned a gun either. I don't think real born again's as in "The wind blows where it wills and you hear the sound of it but you don't know where it is going or from whence it comes, so it is with everyone who is born of the spirit" rely on guns to much. :o)
But if they did they would probably use them for shooting rats and poisonous snakes and pedophiles and such.

Hopefully none of us will never need one to protect ourselves or our family from someone trying to molest or murder them - such as that mentioned pedophile or crackhead or otherwise sociopath.

If anyone wants to avoid tools of protection and hope they're divinely protected, even if they had the means to prepare, then that's between them and God.  Ultimately, God either protects or harvests the wheat - according to His will.

I was talking to my son the other day about it, who is known for his succinct one-liners.  We were talking about the need to trust God, but I also said "we don't just stand in the middle of the road with our eyes closed either".  He simply said "some people do".   :hihat:

As I mentioned earlier, when circumstances were about to change and their lives were going to be in greater danger,  He said to them, "But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one."  Luke 22:36   

I think everyone should be led by the Spirit as to what they should do - taking into account both God's sufficiency and His admonition to "do not tempt the Lord your God".   However He leads, however He provides individually.   :2c:

One of the evils commonly failed to be identified is belief in faith.  We are not saved by faith!  If I was audibly speaking to you I could pause and keep what I'm about to say better hidden from you while you object to this statement:  We are not saved by faith.  This misconception leads to people's untimely death.  There are untimely deaths.  It seems I remember a verse that says, "Be not overly righteous; for, why would you die before your time?"  Here it says, "Be not righteous over much; neither make thyself over wise: why shouldest thou destroy thyself?" (Ec 7¹⁶, KJV)

An earnest American Indian Christian fellow in his 40's, very dear to a friend of mine who went with him to an Emergency Room, exercised real faith as I understand it.  The diagnosis was a ruptured abdominal aneurism. -- More Than 1 Million Americans Are Living With An Undiagnosed Abdominal Aortic Aneurysm (AAA) -- It was something they could easily treat, sewing up the rupture, suctioning the blood, cleaning the abdominal cavity.  Left untreated he would die withing a couple of hours, no more than a couple days.  They left ER praising the Lord, firmly committed to Jesus for healing and praying in tongues.  The fellow kept repeatedly calling on the name of Jesus..."Jesus, Jesus, Jesus."  He was dead in two hours.  We are not saved by faith.

Right now, to oversimplify, I have a friend that is exercising his confession of faith doctrine, saying he has already been healed by the stripes of Jesus.  He must not admit something different lest he break all he's built up by his good confession.  God, "Calls the things that are not as though they already were." (Rm)  and other scripture is on his mind.  He is set against going to the doctor.  I see this as demanding God fit in our preconceived "miracle box."  Keep praying while you call the elders of the Church to pray and anoint with oil.  Chase after one whose work in the world is wisdom about the human body, its diseases and medicine or therapy that can help.  That is, if you want healing.  The blessing of God is needed to make any of our efforts work.  A well known Biblical proverb is, "Laughter does good like a medicine."  Here not only is scriptural medicine refused, I suppose we can't allow laughter just because it would do us good.

We are not saved by faith.  We are saved by grace.  What kind of faith gets defined as that which accords with grace, which is God's activity.  You can't twist His arm behind His back to force Him into performing for you.  He can't be bought either.  There is no disciplined path that can bring about God working for you.  His acts are freely performed.  Without basing it on grace, faith can be a terrible mental work.  Salvation is by grace through faith.  The word is a body for the spirit that quickens according to that word.  "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God."  God's actual speaking to us precedes faith that avails.

Many have no experience with God upon which their faith is based.  Instead they have sewn together this verse here with that Bible phrase over there, like the fig leaf apron of their parents which could not effectually cover.  But, "what is born of God sins not," says the apostle.  It doesn't miss the target.  Grace, "The result of having the need met, of having been filled full," as is the meaning of the original Greek, this is the foundation upon which we can confidently rely and place our trust.  How all this works and our place in it we are to soberly evaluate.  In the midst of life and death matters is no time to too late find you've taken too high a seat at the feast and are being told to go down to a lower seat.

I wanted to make it clear that I do not feel my position is somehow superior - it is not.
I've struggled with the question for 40 years and still am torn. I only know what has happened to me.

In desperate financial situation, I took a job repossessing autos.
One time I was shot at and the bullet literally parted my hair. Twice guns were pulled on me point blank range.
One of them was 2 hours before a riot started in that part of Miami. The other one he kept hopping from left foot to right foot, waving the gun 5 ft. away from me shouting, put the car down, put the car down.
Ten years later in financial straights again I took a second job as a bouncer. Twice I had knives pulled on me
within 5 ft.

During either these times, I never carried a weapon of any kind and me praying I wouldn't have to seriously hurt
somebody else.
I admit, I now keep a baseball bat next to my bed and praying I'll never have to use it but frankly, I'm glad other Christians
are armed. It's still a tough question. A christian friend of mine died recently(heart attack) that had over 50 guns. There is a good chance at least one of the guns will be left to me. I surely won't refuse it but seeing this as if God is telling me, NOW it's time for YOU to be armed.

Quote from: ded2daworld on January 04, 2013, 02:00:50 PM
I wanted to make it clear that I do not feel my position is somehow superior - it is not.
I've struggled with the question for 40 years and still am torn. I only know what has happened to me.

In desperate financial situation, I took a job repossessing autos.
One time I was shot at and the bullet literally parted my hair. Twice guns were pulled on me point blank range.
One of them was 2 hours before a riot started in that part of Miami. The other one he kept hopping from left foot to right foot, waving the gun 5 ft. away from me shouting, put the car down, put the car down.
Ten years later in financial straights again I took a second job as a bouncer. Twice I had knives pulled on me
within 5 ft.

During either these times, I never carried a weapon of any kind and me praying I wouldn't have to seriously hurt
somebody else.
I admit, I now keep a baseball bat next to my bed and praying I'll never have to use it but frankly, I'm glad other Christians
are armed. It's still a tough question. A christian friend of mine died recently(heart attack) that had over 50 guns. There is a good chance at least one of the guns will be left to me. I surely won't refuse it but seeing this as if God is telling me, NOW it's time for YOU to be armed.

:thumbsup:

If you step out there, you had better have faith in your weapon.
Did you strip it properly? Where are the rounds? How many rounds do I have?
How many times have I used this weapon? Does it jam? Once I step out there is no going back.   

I didn't step out there, they stepped in. Lord have mercy. He did .I am free.

I have been training with my new weapons.

Real tears now not tattoos .

ded, your gun-owning friend dead of a heart attack puts me in mind of my own situation years ago.  I used to be a fairly hard-core survivalist, but in time, I realized that survival by the arm of flesh was futile, as [almost] no one gets out of here alive.  I stopped being so survival-minded, and got more content with my life and prospects as they were.  I came to realize that survival, real survival, depended on one's relationship with God, more than guns, stored food, and get-away packs.  Just sayin'.

If anyone has the desire to not arm themselves, great.  If someone's faith is such they absolutely know they can call down angels at any moment and without fail 100% of the time, great.  If someone just wants to simply trust the Lord to the point of "whatever happens I'm OK with", then that's really great too.  In the end, that's probably the truth for a believer anyway.

Just a few things come to mind though;

do we lock our doors at night?
do we wear a seat belt?  (besides micah  :laughing7:)
should a believer stand in the middle of the road with their eyes closed?
should a believer work to provide food for self and family, or just trust it will be provided?
if someone is attempting to rape, capture, or murder someone within our reach, should a believer just stand by and watch?

IMO, God provides a way, according to His will for each us individually, to do practical things to get by in life.  If we don't, He either may decide to protect us, or "protect" us by calling us home (how much possible suffering in the meantime, if there were other means offered beforehand?).  If someone absolutely has not been provided some other means of taking care of life's needs, including protection, then still, God will either protect or call home, according to His will.

So IMO, as one considers one day as the next, while one honors the day - they both do it unto the Lord.  His will be done.

Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 04, 2013, 08:27:20 PM
ded, your gun-owning friend dead of a heart attack puts me in mind of my own situation years ago.  I used to be a fairly hard-core survivalist, but in time, I realized that survival by the arm of flesh was futile, as [almost] no one gets out of here alive.  I stopped being so survival-minded, and got more content with my life and prospects as they were.  I came to realize that survival, real survival, depended on one's relationship with God, more than guns, stored food, and get-away packs.  Just sayin'.

I agree with that Laz.  But don't you think there's a reasonable middle ground (per my post above)?  Although, I believe God truly may have one person be very prepared ("bring a [money] pouch, knapsack, and buy a sword"), while have another in total humility just surrender, kneel, and be stoned to death.  Each must follow the Lord's leading in their own life, including considering those any person may be "responsible for". 

I've struggled with this, and am currently at the place that I believe God wouldn't have us trust in "horses and chariots", that our trust should be in Him.  However, I also am reminded of Joseph, Noah, and of Jesus' words to His disciples, to be prepared and make provisions - including arming themselves.

The prudent man sees evil and hides.  The simple keep going and suffer for it.   Proverbs 27:12

However, my belief is this;  prepare as God enables, but realize that even if prepared, it's still all in His hands, whether one stands or falls.  He either enables the effective use of the tool He's allowed and provided, or if it's His will and His time, He will call us home.  :2c:

Amen Jabcat. My friend was a survivalist and couldn't stand that I don't have a ton of meal replacement meals that last 25 years, don't have guns, don't live out in the woods, don't have an alarm system, etc. - All the stuff he thought was so important.
He was totally prepared for everything except for his own death while literally building a bigger storehouse.

Then it came to pass, at the end of two full years, that Pharaoh had a dream; and behold, he stood by the river. Suddenly there came up out of the river seven cows, fine looking and fat; and they fed in the meadow. Then behold, seven other cows came up after them out of the river, ugly and gaunt, and stood by the other cows on the bank of the river. And the ugly and gaunt cows ate up the seven fine looking and fat cows. So Pharaoh awoke. He slept and dreamed a second time; and suddenly seven heads of grain came up on one stalk, plump and good. Then behold, seven thin heads, blighted by the east wind, sprang up after them. And the seven thin heads devoured the seven plump and full heads. So Pharaoh awoke, and indeed, it was a dream.

Now it came to pass in the morning that his spirit was troubled, and he sent and called for all the magicians of Egypt and all its wise men. And Pharaoh told them his dreams, but there was no one who could interpret them for Pharaoh. Then the chief butler spoke to Pharaoh, saying: "I remember my faults this day. When Pharaoh was angry with his servants, and put me in custody in the house of the captain of the guard, both me and the chief baker, we each had a dream in one night, he and I. Each of us dreamed according to the interpretation of his own dream. Now there was a young Hebrew man with us there, a servant of the captain of the guard. And we told him, and he interpreted our dreams for us; to each man he interpreted according to his own dream. And it came to pass, just as he interpreted for us, so it happened. He restored me to my office, and he hanged him." Then Pharaoh sent and called Joseph, and they brought him quickly out of the dungeon; and he shaved, changed his clothing, and came to Pharaoh.

And Pharaoh said to Joseph, "I have had a dream, and there is no one who can interpret it. But I have heard it said of you that you can understand a dream, to interpret it." So Joseph answered Pharaoh, saying, "It is not in me; God will give Pharaoh an answer of peace."



Then Joseph said to Pharaoh, "The dreams of Pharaoh are one; God has shown Pharaoh what He is about to do: The seven good cows are seven years, and the seven good heads are seven years; the dreams are one. And the seven thin and ugly cows which came up after them are seven years, and the seven empty heads blighted by the east wind are seven years of famine. This is the thing which I have spoken to Pharaoh. God has shown Pharaoh what He is about to do. Indeed seven years of great plenty will come throughout all the land of Egypt; but after them seven years of famine will arise, and all the plenty will be forgotten in the land of Egypt; and the famine will deplete the land. So the plenty will not be known in the land because of the famine following, for it will be very severe. And the dream was repeated to Pharaoh twice because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass."

"Now therefore, let Pharaoh select a discerning and wise man, and set him over the land of Egypt. Let Pharaoh do this, and let him appoint officers over the land, to collect one-fifth of the produce of the land of Egypt in the seven plentiful years. And let them gather all the food of those good years that are coming, and store up grain under the authority of Pharaoh, and let them keep food in the cities. Then that food shall be as a reserve for the land for the seven years of famine which shall be in the land of Egypt, that the land may not perish during the famine."

.

So the advice was good in the eyes of Pharaoh and in the eyes of all his servants. And Pharaoh said to his servants, "Can we find such a one as this, a man in whom is the Spirit of God?" Then Pharaoh said to Joseph, "Inasmuch as God has shown you all this, there is no one as discerning and wise as you. You shall be over my house, and all my people shall be ruled according to your word; only in regard to the throne will I be greater than you." And Pharaoh said to Joseph, "See, I have set you over all the land of Egypt." Then Pharaoh took his signet ring off his hand and put it on Joseph's hand; and he clothed him in garments of fine linen and put a gold chain around his neck. And he had him ride in the second chariot which he had; and they cried out before him, "Bow the knee!" So he set him over all the land of Egypt. Pharaoh also said to Joseph, "I am Pharaoh, and without your consent no man may lift his hand or foot in all the land of Egypt." And Pharaoh called Joseph's name Zaphnath-Paaneah. And he gave him as a wife Asenath, the daughter of Poti-Pherah priest of On. So Joseph went out over all the land of Egypt.

And to Joseph were born two sons before the years of famine came, whom Asenath, the daughter of Poti-Pherah priest of On, bore to him. Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh: "For God has made me forget all my toil and all my father's house." And the name of the second he called Ephraim: "For God has caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction."

Then the seven years of plenty which were in the land of Egypt ended, and the seven years of famine began to come, as Joseph had said. The famine was in all lands, but in all the land of Egypt there was bread. So when all the land of Egypt was famished, the people cried to Pharaoh for bread. Then Pharaoh said to all the Egyptians, "Go to Joseph; whatever he says to you, do." The famine was over all the face of the earth, and Joseph opened all the storehouses and sold to the Egyptians. And the famine became severe in the land of Egypt. So all countries came to Joseph in Egypt to buy grain, because the famine was severe in all lands.

--Gen 41

Wha-a-a-t??? :dontknow:

Quote from: ded2daworld on January 05, 2013, 02:49:31 AM
Wha-a-a-t??? :dontknow:

:laugh:

I'd say she's showing scripture about being prepared.  I had mentioned Joseph as an example of one preparing, and I think that's sort of a followup.   :2c:  (Awesome passage, BTW.)  Thank God for His provisions.

the word evil is used 613 times in the KJV(OT+NT). The Hebrew word "ra'ah", which is translated "evil" in Genesis 2:9 is actually used 668 times in the Old Testament alone.


In one example

Gen 24:50  Then Laban and Bethuel answered and said,"The thing proceedeth from the LORD: we cannot  speak unto thee bad(H7541 ra'ah) or good". Here the useage is about negative or positive. Paraphrased, "The Lord has done this, "We cannot gainsay or approve."

In another

Gen 26:29  That thou wilt do us no hurt,(7541 ra'ah) as we have not touched thee, and as we have done unto thee nothing but good, and have sent thee away in peace: thou art now the blessed of the LORD.

Here evil means harm, and the person being asked to do no harm has no evil intent.

By these and other examples(to numerous to list) "ra'ah" does not always mean "evil as in wickedness" but is defined in the context as calamity, hurt, bad, negative, gainsay, oppose, etc.

In My Opinion, :o), if God creates "evil as in wickedness" then the apostle James is deceived and does not understand what he says. To me, that God and the devil are "teammates" or that the devil is God's "marionette" misunderstands the fundamental relationship between God and the creation. God is "demonstating His wisdom through the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly realms". Why? What have they to learn and how to learn it? They are God's puppets!

Yet, the language of scripture presents another view along side the view that God is ultimatley in control of all and causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will. What is He teaching us in between the lines? :o) How can we learn it if we won't look there?

In the NAS

"I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other, The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.
(Isa 45:5-7)

In the NIV

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
(Isa 45:7)

In the AB

I form the light and create darkness, I make peace [national well-being] and I create [physical]  evil (calamity); I am the Lord, Who does all these things.
(Isa 45:7)

This is at the very least an alternate view to the idea that the scripture teaches in one place that God creates "evil as in wickedness", and in another that God cannot be tempted by evil nor does He tempt anyman with "evil as in wickedness", but that man is the souce of his own "evil as in wickedess".

Quote from: jabcat on January 05, 2013, 03:19:47 AM

Quote from: ded2daworld on January 05, 2013, 02:49:31 AM
Wha-a-a-t??? :dontknow:

:laugh:

I'd say she's showing scripture about being prepared.  I had mentioned Joseph as an example of one preparing, and I think that's sort of a followup.   :2c:  (Awesome passage, BTW.)  Thank God for His provisions.

He hates to read.   :laugh:

Read THIS

God has shown Pharaoh what He is about to do.


God communicates to us in visions and dreams.  We know the truth, don't we?  He loves us and wants to protect us from evil.  If only we knew how to listen...

And to the one who listens and understands:


You shall be over my house, and all my people shall be ruled according to your word; only in regard to the throne will I be greater than you."

See? This time you told me what point you were trying to make.
Ten people can just throw a quote or several quotes to post but if there is no accompanying input
Some of(mostly me :doh:) don't know what point is trying to be made.
We all "see" scripture slightly differently in what  it means to us and sometimes we read verses 10-20 times and still
haven't seen in it what others have. :friendstu:

Jabcat, I agree completely.  It's a matter of balance - prepare, but be aware that all your prepping may not keep you safe.  Know that ultimately it's all in God's capable Hands.  Did not God say that those who are destined to the sword, to the sword; those destined to die, to die; those destined for prison, to prison; etc?  Furthermore, don't worry, for in the end, we're all home free, anyway. :dsunny:

Quote from: eaglesway on January 05, 2013, 07:06:52 AM
the word evil is used 613 times in the KJV(OT+NT). The Hebrew word "ra'ah", which is translated "evil" in Genesis 2:9 is actually used 668 times in the Old Testament alone.


In one example

Gen 24:50  Then Laban and Bethuel answered and said,"The thing proceedeth from the LORD: we cannot  speak unto thee bad(H7541 ra'ah) or good". Here the useage is about negative or positive. Paraphrased, "The Lord has done this, "We cannot gainsay or approve."

In another

Gen 26:29  That thou wilt do us no hurt,(7541 ra'ah) as we have not touched thee, and as we have done unto thee nothing but good, and have sent thee away in peace: thou art now the blessed of the LORD.

Here evil means harm, and the person being asked to do no harm has no evil intent.

By these and other examples(to numerous to list) "ra'ah" does not always mean "evil as in wickedness" but is defined in the context as calamity, hurt, bad, negative, gainsay, oppose, etc.

In My Opinion, :o), if God creates "evil as in wickedness" then the apostle James is deceived and does not understand what he says. To me, that God and the devil are "teammates" or that the devil is God's "marionette" misunderstands the fundamental relationship between God and the creation. God is "demonstating His wisdom through the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly realms". Why? What have they to learn and how to learn it? They are God's puppets!

Yet, the language of scripture presents another view along side the view that God is ultimatley in control of all and causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will. What is He teaching us in between the lines? :o) How can we learn it if we won't look there?

In the NAS

"I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other, The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.
(Isa 45:5-7)

In the NIV

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
(Isa 45:7)

In the AB

I form the light and create darkness, I make peace [national well-being] and I create [physical]  evil (calamity); I am the Lord, Who does all these things.
(Isa 45:7)

This is at the very least an alternate view to the idea that the scripture teaches in one place that God creates "evil as in wickedness", and in another that God cannot be tempted by evil nor does He tempt anyman with "evil as in wickedness", but that man is the souce of his own "evil as in wickedess".

So basicly, you my friend just don't like the word evil and it's entire condensation to man, right? Evil is a dimension with many facets and with purpose. You don't seem to like the word evil, when it relates the the very one who created it for His  purpose. Evil only raising it's ugly head when man chooses to be delinquent. Man brings evil to the forefront because that is what man desires  Rom 8:20  For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope...
I'm surprised.

Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 06, 2013, 12:53:17 AM
Jabcat, I agree completely.  It's a matter of balance - prepare, but be aware that all your prepping may not keep you safe.  Know that ultimately it's all in God's capable Hands.  Did not God say...

:gimmefive:

Hi Micah,
    No, I don't consign all evil to man. I do consign a measure of the responsibility of wickedness to man. God need not forgive that for which we bare no responsibility.

Of cousre between you and I there is not much use to arguing it out  :LH: we see things differently on the level of my opinion that God has granted to man a measure of freedom to chose and that He holds us accountable for it.

If "everyman sins when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed" then the "provider of temptation" may vary, the devil, the impersonal principles of the "lust of the flesh and the pride of life", the "lust of the world and the pleasures of the mind"- whatever a persons view on that so be it- but God is not tempting anyone with evil- in my view.

Man is just a fall guy [I'm not excusing him, though].

These are the real culprits:


12 For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.

--Eph 6

Even though you planned evil against me, God planned good to come out of it. This was to keep many people alive, as he is doing now.

---Gen 50:20



You meant it for evil, but God determined it for good, to save many people alive.

Quote from: eaglesway on January 06, 2013, 04:05:43 PM
Hi Micah,
    No, I don't consign all evil to man. I do consign a measure of the responsibility of wickedness to man. God need not forgive that for which we bare no responsibility.

Of cousre between you and I there is not much use to arguing it out  :LH: we see things differently on the level of my opinion that God has granted to man a measure of freedom to chose and that He holds us accountable for it.

If "everyman sins when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed" then the "provider of temptation" may vary, the devil, the impersonal principles of the "lust of the flesh and the pride of life", the "lust of the world and the pleasures of the mind"- whatever a persons view on that so be it- but God is not tempting anyone with evil- in my view.

Gotcha, my friend and brother in Christ and His Love. PS I think you gave me that flu in one of your posts, feelin poorly. :sigh: :laugh:

Its a nasty bug, I hope you don't have it. :crywipe:

So evil is identified.... adversity, affliction, bad, calamity. And unless a person decides to use the word evil as the tool of the adversary, it ain't all that (evil) adversity, affliction, bad, calamity. And all the Lord God beheld was Gen 3:22  And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and adversity, affliction, bad, calamity: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

I've taken the privilege to insert, for better understanding.
Gen 2:9  And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and adversity, affliction, bad, calamity.
1Sa 16:14  But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an adversity, affliction, bad, calamity spirit from the LORD troubled him.
1Sa 18:10  And it came to pass on the morrow, that the adversity, affliction, bad, calamity  spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and there was a javelin in Saul's hand.
1Sa 19:9  And the adversity, affliction, bad, calamity  spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with his hand.
Deu 29:21  And the LORD shall separate him unto adversity, affliction, bad, calamity  out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this book of the law:
Jos 23:15  Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all adversity, affliction, bad, calamity   things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

In the NAS
"I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other, The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.
(Isa 45:5-7)
In the NIV
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
(Isa 45:7)
In the AB
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace [national well-being] and I create [physical]  evil (calamity); I am the Lord, Who does all these things.
(Isa 45:7)

Or am I being too dizzy.

As with Job, God allows the Evil one that He himself created to bring adversity, affliction, bad and calamity upon Job so, was responsible, in the sense that it was in the Plan of God that this should happen.

Micah - Ya never go dizzy using scripture to back a position. :Peace2: :laughing7:

evil is identified by the context it is used in over 600 verses, not as ANY ONE THING, but may different things and from many different sources. That why simplistic one sided answers always miss the wider truth God is revealing- no matter which side of the argument they are on :o)

Okay, me being a simplisticer (is that me labeling me?)  what is, " the wider truth God is revealing- no matter which side of the argument they are on :o)"?

For me anyway, imo, as for context, the Lord God saw that He had a need for evil, and the word evil carries it's context all the way through the Bible. The Bible states  Gen 2:9  and Jehovah God causeth (made) to sprout......the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
For me, HE will use evil for His purpose, and it is for good in the end. Now MAN on the other hand, it is quite evident, will use  evil for no good.
Jer 17:5  Thus said Jehovah: Cursed is the man who doth trust in man, And hath made flesh his arm, And from Jehovah whose heart turneth.

Jer 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly corrupt: who can know it?
Jer 17:10  I, Jehovah, search the mind, I try the heart, even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings.

IMO, the word evil does not carry its context with it through the whole bible- that defies the definition of context. Context is the surrounding within which a word is set, which is why sometimes "olam"  means "world", sometimes it means a few years, sometimes it means "eon" and sometimes it means "forever".

In some places the context places evil in the meaning of calamity or chaos, some places as wickedness or iniquity.

However, I do agree that God will cause evil to work according to His purpose....... No matter how we define it or whatever the context.

"Who causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will".

How does God "cause" evil to work according to His will, but not do evil or tempt anyone with evil? IMO, That's easy. He overcomes evil with good(that's sorta why we were taught to do the same thing)

That's what the cross of Jesus does for the whole creation, until God is all in all- and I know we agree on that :o)

Yes God created IMO, the rebellious angels (or the angels he foreknew would rebel and uses them to achieve his own ends.
They are incapable of stepping over the boundary line of God's will and/or permission.
There's that nasty free will stuff again.
Do angels have free will? If they do, is it more freedom or less freedom than the free will of man?

We are all free to do anything God doesn't stop us from doing :o)

But what about angels? Same thing? Using "we" wasn't clear if angels were included. I'm no angel - only a saint :Peace2:

HAHA, Well of course it is only my opinion, not bein no angel neither ;o), But yeah, I think the angels are also allowed to do whatever God doesnt stop them from doing---but the angels that did not rebel(if you believe that, I do) are like breathes of God, they hover about Him awaiting impulses from His heart and mind and do them because they love Him and obey His commands- and thats what we are growing into ourselves. "I only do those things that I hear from my Father"...... to me, was not about a moment to moment, second by second command structure- but rather moving in union with the "ways of the Lord" and the "Spirit of the Lord".

"The wind blows where it wills, and yoy hear the sound of it but you don't know where it is coming from or where it is going.....so it is with EVERYONE who is born of the Spirit.

This is the master Himself explaining how walking in the Spirit works, for anyone who has ears to hear.

Did Jesus turn the water into wine because His Father told Him to, or because His mother told Him to, or because His mother asked Him to and the He asked His Father and His Father said, "Do It Now" or because He felt the wind blow in that direction and flowed with it? I don't kno HEHEH, WHO DOES?

I thought it was because Jesus did what he saw his Father doing
taking the drab and plain(water) and making it fresh, new, tasty, and desireable.(wine)
Water is a necessity, wine is a pleasure. (I don't drink at all by the way) I'm using these as symbols
of the new life.

Jesus' first miracle was turning water into wine.

His last miracle was turning wine into blood.


For this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.  Mat 26:28

Good one Molly! :thumbsup:

But the Messiah has appeared, high priest of the good things that have come.[a] In the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands (that is, not of this creation), 12 He entered the most holy place once for all, not by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a young cow, sprinkling those who are defiled, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of the Messiah, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works to serve the living God?

Amen Daj. :thumbsup: