Identifying evil

[Deena]

Ded, I like your humor. I get weary of the doomsday rhetoric. We have a gospel of hope, do we not?

[redhotmagma]

Are sin and evil necessarily the same?  John you are writing of sin but the topic is evil. Sinning is evil but is evil sin?  That may be an assumption we make automatically. This just popped up in my head haven't thought about it too much. Just throwing it out there.

[micah7:9]

As far as I can tell here they are.
Psalm 78:41
Yes, again and again they tempted God, And limited the Holy One of Israel
1 Thessalonians 3:5

1 Thess. 3:5
For this reason, when I could no longer endure it, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor might be in vain.

1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.


James 1:12-15
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

"....since I have presented at least a half dozen scriptures or so over the course of this conversation that present (IMO) a wider vista on the subject."

Where is the wider vista? The post has to do with identifying evil. I have simply stated what I have read, that God planted the sprout of evil in the very beginning. I didn't make it up. God introduced evil for a working part in His creation. I don't say I understand it, but He did it. I have read that God tempts no man and believe it. I have read that through the blood of Jesus we can overcome evil. My wondering is since HE SAID He created evil why it is not accepted as a truth?
And as far as the "red picture" there can be many views. But if the three square inches are false then the whole picture will be an illusion.

Actually I think you did make it up. Where do you see that God planted a sprout of evil? God never introduced evil. We did.

"Every man sins when he is drawn away by his own lust and enticed. Lust conceives sin, sin conceives death.

Gen 2:9  and Jehovah God causeth to sprout from the ground every tree desirable for appearance, and good for food, and the tree of life in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Jehovah God wanted evil in His creation, it's His creation. Just how would man know GOOD if he had nothing to compare it to?
How would we today know GOOD if it were not for evil?
Did Jehovah God in all His wisdom KNOW that He would have need for such a thing as evil? I say yes.
Jehovah God sees that it is a step..Gen 3:22  And Jehovah God saith, `Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age,' --

[micah7:9]

Are sin and evil necessarily the same?  John you are writing of sin but the topic is evil. Sinning is evil but is evil sin?  That may be an assumption we make automatically. This just popped up in my head haven't thought about it too much. Just throwing it out there.

Good thoughts! :dsunny:

[ded2daworld]

Just throwing this into the pile. IMO,

Sin = not loving in thought, word, or deed. So we know we are all sinners and sin every day to some degree.

Evil is planning to sin, getting some kind of perverse pleasure out of it or hoping to gain status, power, or money by taking advantage of another.
It's like the difference between murder and manslaughter. Sin, by itself, is unplanned, it's just our nature, the way we are. Evil is planned sin.

I'm with Micah. We can't appreciate or understand GOOD without there being Evil... at least not in this life.

[sheila]

God did cause the togogae to sprout[that abominable brach]..but  in the parable of the wheat

and tares..and of God sowing...He said..'an enemy hath done this"  When ye take in the fruit

of an abominable branch[any living thing] it's seeds are scattered  in the field..

[micah7:9]

Just throwing this into the pile. IMO,

Sin = not loving in thought, word, or deed. So we know we are all sinners and sin every day to some degree.

Evil is planning to sin, getting some kind of perverse pleasure out of it or hoping to gain status, power, or money by taking advantage of another.
It's like the difference between murder and manslaughter. Sin, by itself, is unplanned, it's just our nature, the way we are. Evil is planned sin.

I'm with Micah. We can't appreciate or understand GOOD without there being Evil... at least not in this life.

Thank you and AMEN because there will be NO evil when HE is finished. I am certain that  Jas 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
That for man to be tempted, evil is the nectar that draws the lust that conceives the sin. This I believe is the warfare.
Before the woman ever ate or touch the fruit....".....Gen 3:6  And when the woman saw
she was on her way.
Rom 8:20  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21  Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

[micah7:9]

God did cause the togogae to sprout[that abominable brach]..but  in the parable of the wheat

and tares..and of God sowing...He said..'an enemy hath done this"  When ye take in the fruit

of an abominable branch[any living thing] it's seeds are scattered  in the field..

You are correct 100% ".....'an enemy hath done this" but that enemy had to come from somewhere right?
IMO, when I began to seek a truth and it was opened(just a small sliver of a crack) that ALL that happens is from a cause and that the CAUSE must always be Jehovah God the Creator, all that I had learned and believed in had to be closed and shut, for me the "blame game" had ceased; no longer would I point a finger at what or who, but now by His grace and His faith and the leading of the Holy Spirit to seek understanding and hope that wisdom would comfort me. Job said something wonderful that helped me greatly
Job 2:10  But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
:dsunny:

[sheila]

Genesis.....4;7 ..if tho doest good,shalt thou not be accepted?  But if thou doest Not good...

   sin croucheth at the door..and you are his desire, you shoudl rule over him..

   Rejoice not..that the evil spirits are subject to you..but that your name is written in heaven..

   He wants us to rule over wickedness..and it not rule us..

   Because the flesh is weak..and man has been overcome...Jesus Christ come..and let us know

  our failures in this wrestling match..will not be held against us. And freely gives us the gift of life

and forgiveness..

the abominable branch is also the abomination of desolation...........it misleads many and they

serve an evil god..a god of injustice,cruel..a monster god...Not the God of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob

and the God of Love that Jesus Christ revealed..

   Now,we have the Branch of Jesse[Jesus Christ] and HE SHALL RULE UNTIL THE LAST ENEMY

  DEATH[fruitage of evil branch] is placed under His feet.   He received Dominion and Kingship

  to overcome All the power of the enemy..........PRAISE GOD...THAT THE SON COMES TO SET

  THE WHOLE GROANING CREATION FREE!!!!!!

[sheila]

well said,Micah. Amen

[ded2daworld]

God, being infinite, Did not need to create angels. (or man for that matter)
He used one of these created angels to tempt man (remember my first lesson - "where there is no temptation, there is no virtue')
Sin = not loving, entered the world when that man considered what someone else said of more importance than what God said.
This was disrespect toward God. This was disrespect for Jesus - the word of God made flesh.

Regardless of how good something sounds or how right and true, IMO, we disrespect God when we
put what anyone else says over his plain direct word.
That's why I have the signature I do at the bottom. I want to hear, "Well done, good and faithful servant" - you believed
my word and trusted I would never decieve or mislead you.

[micah7:9]

well said,Micah. Amen

Thank you, we ARE blessed! :dsunny:

Psa 18:46  Jehovah liveth; and blessed be my rock; And exalted be the God of my salvation,

[Molly]

Jehovah God sees that it is a step..Gen 3:22  And Jehovah God saith, `Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age,'

Why does the man suddenly have knowledge of good and evil?

What has changed?

If we look at babies, when do they gain the knowledge of good and evil?

At what age would a child deliberately lie, for instance?

The man has become like one of us, God says.  How so?

I think it's all about language, --language which is sophisticated enough to form thought and intent.


We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

--2 Cor 10:5

[sheila]

I just feel..this is when conscience come into play[guilt entered in after the act] a sort of internal

   sense of judgement[why else would they hide..with figs leaves..then from Him?]

   God has often declared man does not know his right hand from his left..like sheep without a shepherd

   I think it's a warped conscience...those that put good for evil and evil for good[like satan/serpent did

  that led them into the act]

  He keeps declaring,I will teach you! I will show you whats best for you!......

   maybe it's a lesson to recognize love[and who really loves us] and hates us[evil]...

   He is love..and we are to be made in His image

[Molly]

It's true.  The killers of those children in Ct. undoubtedly know right from wrong.

They just don't care.

They feel the ends justify the means [disarm the American people to usher in the nwo, for instance].

It is a total disregard for the existence, desires, and laws of God.

[sheila]

Right..that is the nature of evil..that same nature that was in the garden..that brought about a new order for man

   death and suffering..so it could rule as prince of this world...without regard/love for anything other than

  itself.

  what should we learn from this...that we should never covet the throne of God to rule over others to

  their harm.  That is evil.  But,we should be like Jesus..a servant to Allserve one another in love.

   Now I have seen many in christendom,islaam..etc..that covet God's throne to Lord it over and kill others

and in pride they think they do God a service...they reign a rain of terror in what authority they have

managed to grasp ove others...see the evil nature of it.

  Now..compare that to He that loves us..that cares about the well-being of all..that shows no respector of

persons. He that fufills the needs of His creation..that is generous[not covetous] bountiful in giving[not

penurious]

   Jesus testified that the Prince of this world's works were wicked.

[micah7:9]

Jehovah God sees that it is a step..Gen 3:22  And Jehovah God saith, `Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age,'

Why does the man suddenly have knowledge of good and evil?

What has changed?

If we look at babies, when do they gain the knowledge of good and evil?

At what age would a child deliberately lie, for instance?

The man has become like one of us, God says.  How so?

I think it's all about language, --language which is sophisticated enough to form thought and intent.


We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

--2 Cor 10:5

"suddenly" have knowledge, yes perhaps, imo, but i believe it just had to start. The warefare had to begin.
I don't think, imo, that anything changed, imo, it was "built in" when man became a living soul.
Babies, don't gain it, the vanity of evil waits. imo
At what age, probably when the child "feels" there is a punishment, I don't really know. But the creature/creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope, Ro. 8:20
"The man has become like one of us, God says.  How so?" Knowing there is a difference. imo
In my opinion, that "language" is what man listens to until drawn by the Father.
Not all men will do the evil as others, but the possibility of doing it is there.
Again, imo, that beam in the eye, it can see the error of another, but is so big in the beholders eye that he cannot see that the same error, is embedded in his own eye, he just can't see it. Judge not.....lest you be judged.
Forgiveness, imo, is one of the hardest accomplishments for a believer; we say it but, is the beam still there?

[ded2daworld]

It's interesting you should say that Micah. John McArthur is one of the most famous proponents of ET -
he even wrote his own (expensive) study bible. He also wrote an entire book about forgiveness over 20 years ago, just titled "Forgiveness"
It was a great book. A shame he can write so eloquently about forgiveness as he condemns others(through his loving God) to a fiery, eternal hell.

[dajomaco]

Hey Ded

Hey Daj,
I didn't say or even think that your statements were anti-biblical. I just didn't have any idea what scripture you were using to support it.

  IMO, some of your ideas can't be backed by scripture.


Don't back out now show me at least the idea that you think is most vague.
If you go forward you and I will be sharper.
I would rather take the chance of being wrong and sharper,
then safe and dull. "Engarde"

[eaglesway]

I just feel..this is when conscience come into play[guilt entered in after the act] a sort of internal

   sense of judgement[why else would they hide..with figs leaves..then from Him?]

   God has often declared man does not know his right hand from his left..like sheep without a shepherd

   I think it's a warped conscience...those that put good for evil and evil for good[like satan/serpent did

  that led them into the act]

  He keeps declaring,I will teach you! I will show you whats best for you!......

   maybe it's a lesson to recognize love[and who really loves us] and hates us[evil]...

   He is love..and we are to be made in His image

I think that is very close to it Sheila, something like man was connected to God's BEING, and lived by that connection with the I AM until the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. In two ways, in the breaking of the command and in the subjection to the teaching of the Father of lies- that connection was broken. Now we were living by a compass with no true north. True north is the heart of God and intimate fellowship with Him. (They walked with the voice of God in the cool of the garden)

Maybe, that's why we are reconnected by the implantation of the word of truth, born again by an incorruptible seed and the receiving of the Holy Spirit(breath of God)- Jesus saying , " the wind blows where it wills and you hear the sound of it but you don't know from whence it comes nor where it is going"- Life in the Spirit as a relationship with the wind being likened unto living in the I AM, connected to the BEING of God, walking in His Spirit.

[dajomaco]

Jehovah God sees that it is a step..Gen 3:22  And Jehovah God saith, `Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age,'

Why does the man suddenly have knowledge of good and evil?

What has changed?

If we look at babies, when do they gain the knowledge of good and evil?

At what age would a child deliberately lie, for instance?

The man has become like one of us, God says.  How so?

I think it's all about language, --language which is sophisticated enough to form thought and intent.


We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

--2 Cor 10:5

Molly IMO Flesh and Blood did not reveal this to you.
When we start with you and listen as we go toward ,
Molly we will end up singing the same song here .
Imo what you have touched on in the post .
Is one of the most exciting ways to start the New 

[dajomaco]

"You are free to eat from any tree of the garden, 17 but you must not eat[m] from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for on the day you eat from it, you will certainly die."

If you spoke a sentence like the above.
You would have to assume the listener has some sort understanding.
We don't hear God's we see God's voice.
Adam saw what God was saying to him.
Did Adam see death. Did he see the tree.

Good and Evil where on that tree.

[sheila]

Beautifully said,Ew.. Molly;.the thought and intent of the heart[evil or good] :iagree:

[micah7:9]

Perhaps, just perhaps when...Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; .......
This was the birth of the conscience?

[micah7:9]

" Maybe, that's why we are reconnected by the implantation of the word of truth, born again by an incorruptible seed and the receiving of the Holy Spirit(breath of God)- Jesus saying , " the wind blows where it wills and you hear the sound of it but you don't know from whence it comes nor where it is going"- Life in the Spirit as a relationship with the wind being likened unto living in the I AM, connected to the BEING of God, walking in His Spirit." EW

I believe you nailed it! :dsunny: