I have three questions.

[Cardinal]

IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE

Our change from mortal to immortal, from corruptible to incorruptible is a promise of God that can no more fail or pass away than any other of God's promises. "Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye... for this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (I Cor. 15:51-53).

I want to show you one of the hidden secrets of God, that only the Spirit of Truth can bring forth. After saying, "but we shall all be changed," the next words read, "in a moment." The Greek word used here for "moment" is ATOMOS. This passage is the only place in the Greek New Testament where this word is used. ATOMOS is the word from which is derived our English word "atom." The word carried the meaning in the Greek of that which is UNCUTTABLE or INDIVISIBLE because the Greeks believed that the atom was the smallest particle of matter that existed, therefore it could not be divided, cut, split, or reduced in any way. The translators have taken this to mean that our bodies shall be changed in "an atom of time," that is, in an instant of time so brief that you could not make it any quicker, or reduce the time in any measure. I can understand their reasoning, but it seems to me far afield from the facts. There are other Greek words that do mean moment, an infinitesimal period of time. If the Spirit intended this to be - in a moment - then why did He use the word ATOMOS instead of the word that actually means Moment. For instance, in II Cor. 4:17 we find the statement, "For our light afflictions which are but for a moment..." This word "moment" comes from the Greek word PARAUTIKA which means instant or momentary. So why did the Spirit use the word ATOMOS instead of the word PARAUTIKA when He said, "We shall all be changed, in a moment ... if He meant moment? And why do the translators persist in translating it "moment"? There must have been a reason for the Holy Spirit to use the word ATOMOS, that God has kept hidden from the translators. Does not this word ATOMOS indicate that we shall be changed in the ATOMS of our bodies, in the very structure and substance of our outer house, in the ATOMICAL STRUCTURE of our bodies? "We shall be changed in ATOMS, in ATOMICAL STRUCTURE, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump!" Certainly this is much more in harmony with the subject: "There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly" I Cor. 15:44,49). Certainly this involves a change in our atomical structure!

Following these words the apostle hastily adds this enigmatical phrase, "in the twinkling of any eye." "Twinkling" is from the Greek word RHIPE meaning "a jerk" of the eyes. RHIPE is from the root RHIPTO, a word which indicates a sudden motion; to hurl with a rapid movement; a stroke; to toss; to fling. The twinkling of an eye relates not so much to time as it does to the ACTION and MOTION involved. It is not a question of how quickly the eyelids flutter, but the fact of a movement, a jerk, a change of direction, a SUDDEN REFOCUSING OR LOOKING AWAY. If I were reading a book and I heard the door open, I would swiftly dart my eyes in the direction of the door to see who is entering. I would LOOK AWAY from the book and quickly REFOCUS my sight on the person coming through the door. This abrupt motion, this sudden refocusing of vision, this rapid change of eye contact is what is indicated by the Greek word RHIPE.

When our attention is unexpectedly attracted by a sudden burst of revelation and spiritual understanding there is that instantaneous "turning away" from our former concepts, beliefs, actions and ways, to behold and embrace the truth and glory of God disclosed by inspiration of the Holy Spirit. This sudden change in perspective, this immediate transformation of consciousness satisfies precisely the meaning of the Greek phrase - "in the twinkling of an eye." It bespeaks vision, illumination, understanding, perception and perspective. Furthermore, it has absolutely nothing to do with a so called "rapture of the saints," or the "second coming of Jesus." Plainly and unquestionably it concerns O-U-R CHANGE, O-U-R TRANSFORMATION into the image of Christ. It says nothing about us being "raptured" in the twinkling of an eye; what it does say is that "WE SHALL BE CHANGED in a moment (in atoms), in the twinkling (re-focused vision) of an eye." Yet the preachers loudly proclaim on the basis of this verse that Jesus will return in a split second, and the saints will in a flash of time travel a trillion miles cf miracle at the Rapture. It is as pure a myth as ever entered the brain of man!

My heart leaps within me as I contemplate this wonderful reality - being CHANGED! From the distant mountain peaks of faith comes a sound as clear as morning chimes. It is the voice of the inspired apostle sounding out from centuries past, "BEHOLDING as in a glass the glory of the Lord, WE ARE CHANGED into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord" (II Cor. 3:18). Beholding - we are changed! It is the same message - "We shall be changed ... in the twinkling of an eye!" We are changed by a beholding, by a looking, by A LOOK. Betimes it takes a lot to turn us. The Psalmist cries out, "Turn us, O Lord. Cause Thy face to shine and we shall be saved" (Ps. 8O:3,7,19). It is only as we turn in the direction of the present glory that we can know transformation! You can read the history of revivals, you can study the exploits of men of faith in centuries past, you can reminisce about the great visitations of God yesteryear. There is not enough power in such things to transform you. And there no need to cry, "Lord, do it again!" for our God is ever progressive in His dealings and the outworking of His purposes, and He doesn't retrogress to "do it again." This is a New Day and God will do a New Thing! Transformation comes only in the light of the present glory and revelation of Jesus Christ. We must turn, to behold Him as He is, not as He was. There is a multitude of people today whose experience goes no further than small measure of knowledge about the historical Jesus they read of in the Gospels. Countless thousands more know Him only in the light of yesterday's revelation. Oh! we need to turn to Him today by the Spirit. Seeing and knowing Him involves an on-going unveiling of Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit.
                                  — Preston Eby                                        
                                      LOOKING FOR HIS APPEARING, Part 36  
                                      Kingdombiblestudies.org

:cloud9: AMEN, AMEN, AND AMEN.........there are a people who are going to overcome the last enemy while in their body, just as the Lord did while in His. When He said no man takes my life, I lay it down, He was speaking out of the reality of Him ALREADY having overcome death.

Divine healing worked within Him and came out without measure, so if He couldn't die from disease, and no man could take His life, then the only way He COULD die was to lay it down, and He proved He had mastery over death when HE took His life back up, the life or POWER of the resurrection that Paul said he wanted to know. The power of the resurrection is His LOVE known as intimately as one who lays his head upon His bosom.

Those that are going thru even life threatening illnesses this day, understand it is not to wipe you out, but for Him to raise up in you in power so that you KNOW that sickness CANNOT kill you, and is the first measure of overcoming death. This is what the Lord told me when I faced terminal cancer 12 years ago, and He healed me within a week of diagnosis. The giants in the land right now, they are bread for you, and that's all. Be GLORIFIED, Lord, in Your people this day. Blessings....

[martincisneros]

1)  What is the difference between the coming of the Lord described in Revelation,  on the white horse,     and  the coming of the Lord described by Paul in 1st Thessalonians 4 ,  the coming in the air,  with the dead in Christ and those who are alive in Christ,   rising and meeting the Lord in the air.

I posted this article last October on the boards.  Unsure if the accompanying link is still any good.  Computer's been acting up 'cause of facebook visits and not wanting to chance clicking on extra links right now, 'til I've done a reboot:

Farewell to the Rapture
By: N.T. Wright

Little did Paul know how his colorful metaphors for Jesus' second coming would be misunderstood two millennia later.

The American obsession with the second coming of Jesus — especially with distorted interpretations of it — continues unabated. Seen from my side of the Atlantic, the phenomenal success of the Left Behind books appears puzzling, even bizarre¹. Few in the U.K. hold the belief on which the popular series of novels is based: that there will be a literal "rapture" in which believers will be snatched up to heaven, leaving empty cars crashing on freeways and kids coming home from school only to find that their parents have been taken to be with Jesus while they have been "left behind." This pseudo-theological version of Home Alone has reportedly frightened many children into some kind of (distorted) faith.

This dramatic end-time scenario is based (wrongly, as we shall see) on Paul's First Letter to the Thessalonians, where he writes: "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God. The dead in Christ will rise first; then we, who are left alive, will be snatched up with them on clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

What on earth (or in heaven) did Paul mean?

It is Paul who should be credited with creating this scenario. Jesus himself, as I have argued in various books, never predicted such an event². The gospel passages about "the Son of Man coming on the clouds" (Mark 13:26, 14:62, for example) are about Jesus' vindication, his "coming" to heaven from earth. The parables about a returning king or master (for example, Luke 19:11-27) were originally about God returning to Jerusalem, not about Jesus returning to earth. This, Jesus seemed to believe, was an event within space-time history, not one that would end it forever.

The Ascension of Jesus and the Second Coming are nevertheless vital Christian doctrines³, and I don't deny that I believe some future event will result in the personal presence of Jesus within God's new creation. This is taught throughout the New Testament outside the Gospels. But this event won't in any way resemble the Left Behind account. Understanding what will happen requires a far more sophisticated cosmology than the one in which "heaven" is somewhere up there in our universe, rather than in a different dimension, a different space-time, altogether.

The New Testament, building on ancient biblical prophecy, envisages that the creator God will remake heaven and earth entirely, affirming the goodness of the old Creation but overcoming its mortality and corruptibility (e.g., Romans 8:18-27; Revelation 21:1; Isaiah 65:17, 66:22). When that happens, Jesus will appear within the resulting new world (e.g., Colossians 3:4; 1 John 3:2).

Paul's description of Jesus' reappearance in 1 Thessalonians 4 is a brightly colored version of what he says in two other passages, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and Philippians 3:20-21: At Jesus' "coming" or "appearing," those who are still alive will be "changed" or "transformed" so that their mortal bodies will become incorruptible, deathless. This is all that Paul intends to say in Thessalonians, but here he borrows imagery—from biblical and political sources—to enhance his message. Little did he know how his rich metaphors would be misunderstood two millennia later.

First, Paul echoes the story of Moses coming down the mountain with the Torah. The trumpet sounds, a loud voice is heard, and after a long wait Moses comes to see what's been going on in his absence.

Second, he echoes Daniel 7, in which "the people of the saints of the Most High" (that is, the "one like a son of man") are vindicated over their pagan enemy by being raised up to sit with God in glory. This metaphor, applied to Jesus in the Gospels, is now applied to Christians who are suffering persecution.

Third, Paul conjures up images of an emperor visiting a colony or province. The citizens go out to meet him in open country and then escort him into the city. Paul's image of the people "meeting the Lord in the air" should be read with the assumption that the people will immediately turn around and lead the Lord back to the newly remade world.

Paul's mixed metaphors of trumpets blowing and the living being snatched into heaven to meet the Lord are not to be understood as literal truth, as the Left Behind series suggests, but as a vivid and biblically allusive description of the great transformation of the present world of which he speaks elsewhere.

Paul's misunderstood metaphors present a challenge for us: How can we reuse biblical imagery, including Paul's, so as to clarify the truth, not distort it? And how can we do so, as he did, in such a way as to subvert the political imagery of the dominant and dehumanizing empires of our world? We might begin by asking, What view of the world is sustained, even legitimized, by the Left Behind ideology? How might it be confronted and subverted by genuinely biblical thinking? For a start, is not the Left Behind mentality in thrall to a dualistic view of reality that allows people to pollute God's world on the grounds that it's all going to be destroyed soon? Wouldn't this be overturned if we recaptured Paul's wholistic vision of God's whole creation?




¹Tim F. Lahaye and Jerry B. Jenkins, Left Behind (Cambridge, UK: Tyndale House Publishing, 1996). Eight other titles have followed, all runaway bestsellers.

²See my Jesus and the Victory of God (Philadelphia: Fortress, 1996); the discussions in Jesus and the Restoration of Israel: A Critical Assessment of N.T. Wright's Jesus and the Victory of God, ed. Carey C. Newman (Downer's Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1999); and Marcus J. Borg and N.T. Wright, The Meaning of Jesus: Two Visions (San Francisco: HarperSanFrancisco, 1999), chapters 13 and 14.

³Douglas Farrow, Ascension and Ecclesia: On the Significance of the Doctrine of the Ascension for Ecclesiology and Christian Cosmology (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1999).



This message was taken from a page at this site: http://www.ntwrightpage.com

[Beloved Servant]

Yes, Martin, the link works.

[Molly]

We might begin by asking, What view of the world is sustained, even legitimized, by the Left Behind ideology?

It's a doctrine of demons.  I realized this when I heard Hagee take it to its logical conclusion--Let's start armageddon ourselves  so we can usher in the return of Jesus and  leave the mess behind.  No thought for the rest of us unraptured souls who would be left behind in Hell.  I put myself in that group instead of Hagee's group because what he is declaring is one of the most evil things I have ever heard.  I'll stay behind in the Hell he is hoping to create, thank you, rather than follow him anywhere.

Satan, however you perceive it, could have no greater wish than that all the people of God be dead and gone from this world.  It is a force of death, which works tirelessly to dominate, subjugate, and destroy everything that is pure, everything that is good, everything that is of God.

If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever.

That's Satan's vision of the future.

So let's marginalize the people of God by telling them they are all going to be leaving this place soon anyway, and recruit them in the process to do the work of the Devil.  It's just the same old story --deja vu all over again.

[Raggedy Anne]

(http://www.offthemarkcartoons.com/cartoons/2001-07-28.gif)

[Gilbert]

We might begin by asking, What view of the world is sustained, even legitimized, by the Left Behind ideology?

It's a doctrine of demons.  I realized this when I heard Hagee take it to its logical conclusion--Let's start armageddon ourselves  so we can usher in the return of Jesus and  leave the mess behind.  No thought for the rest of us unraptured souls who would be left behind in Hell.  I put myself in that group instead of Hagee's group because what he is declaring is one of the most evil things I have ever heard.  I'll stay behind in the Hell he is hoping to create, thank you, rather than follow him anywhere.

Satan, however you perceive it, could have no greater wish than that all the people of God be dead and gone from this world.  It is a force of death, which works tirelessly to dominate, subjugate, and destroy everything that is pure, everything that is good, everything that is of God.

If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever.

That's Satan's vision of the future.

So let's marginalize the people of God by telling them they are all going to be leaving this place soon anyway, and recruit them in the process to do the work of the Devil.  It's just the same old story --deja vu all over again.

Hi! Molly

I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments you expressed about the 'Left Behind' Series.
But after reading your comments, a question came to my mind like this: "Is the 'Left Behind' Series any less damaging or disarming to the Christian than, say, those who claim that Jesus' return has Him first coming to the earth?".
The Bible says in 1Th 4:17: "Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord".

What is the air? The air is a region or realm belonging to the prince of this world. In Ephesians 2:2, Paul says: the ruler of the kingdom of the air.
Think about Barak.
He descended the mountain of Tabor, remember?. He went down the mountain. Why? He had to capture Sisera. Sisera himself was unable to go up the mountain. When Barak realized this, he decided to descend the mountain.

The Lord descends the mountain; to the region where the ruler of the air is, the territory of the evil one. As it states in Revelation 12:10, the accuser of the brothers had been hurled down.
Now if you take a look at what happened in the Tower of Babel, the people climbed up to the highest temple, so that they could execute their occult practices. And then it says: and the Lord came down. God came down. Why? To see what they were doing and; and to do something about it.

God comes down and the enemy wants to go up. And the Lord says, that the air, which is the territory of the ruler of the world, will be the last battle field. This is where the last encounter will take place.

We are talking here about the struggle, about Armageddon. The Lord is gathering His armies. He is gathering them from among those who have fallen asleep and He is gathering them from those who will still be alive on the earth. And these two groups He will bring together in the region belonging to the evil one in the air.
That is the resurrection.

[jabcat]

[The Ascension of Jesus and the Second Coming are nevertheless vital Christian doctrines³, and I don't deny that I believe some future event will result in the personal presence of Jesus within God's new creation. This is taught throughout the New Testament outside the Gospels.

Doc Cis, I've stated a couple of times that I believe there will be those instantly changed when Jesus is again literally in our presence.  They will not taste death.  The "last trump group".   But as I understand, that's a group that's alive when HE chooses to be again literally, physically present with us.  And I believe scripture states no one knows the day nor hour (Mt. 25:13).   

I'm not sure J.Preston, in the earlier post, is saying a whole lot different than that - perhaps mainly other than he doesn't believe a "rapture" is involved and that these bodies will be changed to immortality - (still seemingly though "at Jesus' return/a look"?)  :dontknow:. 

Unless one is alive when Jesus physically returns to us, how do you believe death is optional?   Thanks, James.

(ANYONE ELSE FEEL FREE TO RESPOND - Martin's busy and may not get to this  :thumbsup:.)

[Molly]

And the Lord says, that the air, which is the territory of the ruler of the world, will be the last battle field. This is where the last encounter will take place.

Hi Gilbert,

Where does it say the air will be the last battlefield?

Is this talking about the army of the Lord of hosts who carry on the battle in the air?


10Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

--Eph 6



Is this where he is outfitting this army for the battle in the air?--


14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

15And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

16Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

18Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

--Eph 6


And, is this the Lord's army [host] fighting the final battle in the air ?


14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

--Rev 19

[Gilbert]

[The Ascension of Jesus and the Second Coming are nevertheless vital Christian doctrines³, and I don't deny that I believe some future event will result in the personal presence of Jesus within God's new creation. This is taught throughout the New Testament outside the Gospels.

NOT JUST FOR MARTIN, but for anyone kind enough to directly address my questions;  I've stated a couple of times that I believe there will be those instantly changed when Jesus is again literally in our presence.  They will not taste death.  The "last trump group".   But as I understand, that's a group that's alive when HE chooses to be again literally, physically present with us.  And I believe scripture states no one knows the day nor hour (Mt. 25:13).   I may be wrong, but it seems some believe there will be a group that reach some sort of perfection outside the "last trump/twinkling of an eye change" group.   Is that right, or are we finding multiple ways to say the above, that when Jesus literally appears those who are alive and remain will be instantly changed? 

I'm not sure I really see J.Preston saying a whole lot different than that - mainly other than that he doesn't believe a "rapture"'s involved and that these bodies will be changed to immortality (I don't understand exactly WHEN or HOW he believes this occurs other than a "look")  :dontknow:. 

So are we generally saying that the last trump group won't taste death, or that there's some other way?   How does that make death optional, unless one is alive when Jesus physically returns to us?  If I'm not seeing something that's being said other than what I've noted , please clearly edumacate me  :thumbsup:.

Call me a dumb guy, but I keep trying to nail this down to a few clear bullet points. Call it "Resurrection For Dummies". :laughing7:

Hi! JabCat

First of all, I jus' laffed aloud when reading your comment saying, "Resurrection For Dummies".
Secondly, I am not much familiar with JPreston's teachings; having only read a few of his articles last week.

Now, about the Resurrection:
While I will try and make the as simple as possible, I should warn you that my writing style oftentimes is oblique and disjointed, so bear with me, huh?

The first step you have to take in order to be on the way of true resurrection life is your repentance. The gospel of Jesus Christ starts with the call: "Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand", (Matt 4:17). A change of heart is required; a complete renewal of your unseen, inner man. Only then can you enter into the Kingdom of God, where you will find "righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit", (Romans 14:17). In your old, unrepentant condition you are dead before God because of your sins. No one can serve two masters. No one can have contact with the evil one and real life at the same time, for genuine life is from God.

'To be dead' means to have contact with the realm of darkness; to be a servant of the powers of darkness and sin. When you obey these evil inspirators, they reward you with death; meaning alienation from God. Romans 6:23 says: "For the wages of sin is death", and in Isaiah 59:2 we read: "Your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God". When you repent you disengage yourself from the enemy. You refuse to obey him further and you turn away from this violator who leads you towards death. Inwardly you tear away from your escorts and oppressors and cease to listen to the falsehoods of these evil powers. You disengage your tired and guilt-laden human spirit from darkness and look at Jesus Christ, the bringer of salvation and the restorative power of your life.

Some might ask: But isn't man dead in transgressions and sin? How can a dead person repent? Death in this sense means that in spirit and soul man has lost fellowship with God who is life. Even if man is spiritually dead, he is still able to walk, eat, hear, think and feel, and to gather knowledge through faith. By his spirit he can even influence others. Moreover, man's spirit is immortal. Jesus said that the spiritually dead would hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear would live, that is, have fellowship with God, (John 5:25).

This transportation from darkness to light, this translation from the power of Satan to God, the bible calls man's regeneration. Just as at his birth a child emerges from his secret place and starts a new phase of life, likewise the inner man after being born again takes up his place in the spiritual world, which is called the Kingdom of heaven. Henceforth this Christian not only lives in the visible or natural world, but first and foremost he functions in the lighter side of the spiritual world, that is, in the Kingdom of God. Thus, it is necessary for his thoughts, (previously only occupied with the things of the earth), to be directed to heavenly matters. This requires a total change or renewal of the mind.

This process of change, by which a person is born again as a spiritual man, takes place in the Christian's inner man. It begins in his spirit and then continues in his soul and even in his body. Although it does not happen all at once in its full totality, (the renewal is a daily increase), it is God's wish that even at the start the Christian should testify of his faith in this complete regeneration or re-creation. He not only does so in words, but also symbolizes it through his baptism in water.

In Mark 16.16 Jesus said: 'He who believes and is baptized will be saved.' The word 'saved' means that the believer will be enabled to completely fulfill God's purpose with man, not only that he will be justified and born again, but also continuing on the road of salvation, that he will partake of the glory of sonship. This salvation culminates in a Christian's perfection and maturity. For he is an heir of God and a co-heir with Christ (Romans 8:17). He partakes of the divine nature (2Peter 1:4), and is predestined to reign on the throne of God over all the works of his hands (2Tim 2:12 and Rev 5:10). Jesus Christ came to 'bring many sons to glory' (Heb 2:10).

In his baptism the believer testifies that he has entered into the 'narrow gate,' Jesus Christ and that he has put his feet on the road which leads upward in the Kingdom of God (Matt 7:13). The biblical order is: He who believes and is baptized! The bible further mentions 'the washing of regeneration', (Titus 3:5). This means that the word of God is active as a cleansing bath in water. For that reason the bible speaks of 'the washing of water with the word' (Eph 5:27). As in natural life water cleanses a person from dirt, so the inner man is purified or cleansed of the guilt of his sins by a spiritual immersion in the words of God. These words wash him, and he is resurrected as a new man in righteousness. The Lord said to his disciples: 'You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you', (John 15:3).

By the words which God spoke to us we know that as the Lamb of God, Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (John 1:29). When the inner man, that is soul and spirit, takes his position in the shelter of these words and accepts them, he partakes of this cleansing, and a new life begins. The baptism in water symbolizes this 'washing of regeneration.'

The bible also says that with Jesus we were buried by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life, (Romans 6:4). Here again there is a spiritual event, there is a 'baptism in his death,' a partaking in Jesus' death for our sins. Because Jesus died God takes it that we have died with Him, that is that in our existence a separation has come into being between the life as we knew it before, directed and inspired by the things of this earth and the powers of darkness, and the life which we now live under the guidance and influence of the words of God.

The way in which the believer functioned and reacted before, was of the earth, sometimes even from the devil. The believer disengages himself from this way of life. He puts off the old nature which is corrupt through deceitful lusts (Eph 4:29), and focuses his attention on the things which God has said to him. He desires to function and react in obedience to the ways of the Kingdom of God. He puts on the new nature which is created after the likeness of God (Eph 4:4). The 'glory of the Father' has raised Jesus from the dead, that is, his power or his Holy Spirit. This 'glory' also raises the believer to a newness of life in which even his mortal body shares, as it too experiences God's saving and healing power.

It is clear that this change from the old to the completion of the new takes much time. Baptism in water symbolizes the death of the old as well as the resurrection of the new man. When the baptismal candidate surrenders himself to be immersed he relinquishes his old nature in the water grave. Emerging from the water he confesses his justification and the newness which has started. He forgets the things which are behind and presses onward for the things to come, for 'no one who puts his hand to the plough and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God' (Luke 9:62). And, what is more wonderful still: God Himself forgets the things that happened in the past and accepts the baptized Christian as his justified child.

In our days many people migrate to another country. In the new land they start a completely new life under new laws. Thus baptism also symbolizes the inner man's migration from the world, and his naturalization in the heavenly places: the believer becomes a citizen of heaven (Phil 3:20).

The doctrine of the resurrection of the dead may be called the most important pillar of fundamental Christianity (1Cor 15:13-14). Our inner as well as our outer man is concerned in the resurrection of the dead; it is the restoration of soul, spirit and body. It is a process of renewal starting at repentance and regeneration and for those who are in Christ, finishing with a physical return to life at the Lord's coming. We are speaking of those who share in the first resurrection (Revelation 20:4-6). The first resurrection starts when man's life is restored on the new foundation of God, it is completed in the physical resurrection. The temple of God is complete when the Christian has been restored in soul, spirit and body, when he is completely filled with the Spirit of God.

The resurrection of the dead draws our attention to the fact that man lives forever and ever. The bible teaches that man's visible life is transient, but his unseen life is eternal. (2Cor 4:18). Soul and spirit belong to the spiritual world and so make man's inner life indestructible Just as the celestials. Ephesians 2:1 says that we were dead through our trespasses and sins, which does not mean that our inner man did not exist before, but was alienated from real life with his Creator, not functioning after his laws, a prey of evil powers. Therefore it continues: 'In which you once walked, following the course of this world (which is ruled by the evil one), following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience.'

The inner man being dead means that he is in the power of the evil spirits. Death of the outward man is the separation of the inner man and the body. A dead body does not remain unchanged, it is subjected to the influences of negative and destructive forces. A person who is inwardly dead is subject to the destructive forces of hate, jealousy, lies, uncleanness, depression, etc. He functions after the law of powers of sin and death. In the body, death manifests itself in decomposition, a return to dust. Life after the laws of God, life in righteousness, manifests itself in joy, peace, and strength in the inner man and Health for the outward man.

Resurrection is the change from death into life, from darkness into light, deliverance from the power of Satan and return to God. In the case of the prodigal son resurrection started when he said: 'I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.' His resurrection became a fact when the Father accepted him, put the best robe on him, and provided a ring on his hand and shoes on his feet. Then the Father said about his son: 'He was dead, and is alive again.' (Luke 15:11-32). Jesus described the spiritual resurrection in these words: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes Him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live' (John 5:24-25).

When he is baptized in water a Christian testifies that his old ways of thinking, his old man, is buried and that a new life has started which is nourished from the heavenly places. Many Christians think that a believer goes to heaven only after he dies. If so, how can his ways and citizenship be in heaven? How will he be able to fight and conquer in the heavenlies if he is not present there? It says: 'And raised us up with him, and made us sit with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus' (Eph 2:6).

He who is in Christ, that is, he who belongs to his spiritual body of which He is the Head, is in heaven, in the Kingdom of God, which is the good part of the Kingdom of heaven. In him our Lord's prayer is fulfilled: 'Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given me, may be with me where I am, to behold my glory' (John 17:24). Our life there is in faith, and we see with eyes that are opened spiritually. Natural feet cannot tread in the spiritual world, physical eyes cannot see it hands of flesh cannot touch it. There we hear God's voice in the inner man and express ourselves in images derived from natural life, to create a picture of the unseen, unheard and untouched reality. Jesus spoke of this world in parables. He started his parables with these words: 'The Kingdom of heaven may be compared to ...'

Jesus said: 'I am the resurrection and the life.' We are resurrected with Him when we adopt his ways of thinking, for then we will speak and act as He did. Then we view earthly circumstances from the heavenly places, from 'above.'

There are Christians who lack insight in the world of the Kingdom of heaven and so are unable to live and develop there. Their life is based on the Old Testament. Their knowledge is related to the natural world and this world does not go beyond the grave. The things that lie beyond the grave are a closed book to them. They like to quote the words of Moses: 'The secret things belong to the Lord our God; but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children for ever' (Deut 29:29). But in the new covenant Paul says: 'For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths (the deepest thoughts) of God' (1Cor 2:10). We rejoice in having received this Spirit!

A well-loved text of those who teach the so-called 'sleep of the soul' is Psalm 115:16: 'The heavens are the Lord's heavens, but the earth He has given to the sons of man. The dead do not praise the Lord.' They fail to see that this verse shows the tremendous difference between the Old and the New Covenant. For the Lord says to his followers: "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the Kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given', (Matt 13:11). Ecclesiastes says: 'The dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost,' but of Christians who live at the Old Testament level it may be said that they do have knowledge of the things happening on earth, but know nothing of that which is related to the unseen Kingdom of heaven and do not share in the body of the Lord which is formed there.

When we bury somebody he is dead for us but he lives for God who dwells in the unseen world, (Luke 20:38). The so-called doctrine of the sleep of the soul is based on the assumption that at his death the entire person dies. He is assumed to cease existing in body, soul and spirit. This error is in flat contradiction with the things the New Testament teaches about the Kingdom of heaven. Just think of Abraham's discussion with Lazarus and the rich man. Revelation 6:9 tells us of the crying of the souls that were slain for the Word of God. These dead are capable of crying even though they do not have a physical body. God Himself, and the host of spirits, are capable of calling, sometimes even with a loud voice (Rev 14:5).

A sleeping person is not dead but moves in the unseen world only. In the spirit he is able to walk, to struggle, to have fear, even to make long journeys, traveling in the spirit. When a Christian dies he ceases to be able to function on earth. He falls asleep but lives on in the unseen Kingdom of God.

When he is born again a true Christian he rises to a new life. To him applies: 'Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead.' This should make it clear that this unseen man, the inner man, does not die a second time to be resurrected a second time at the coming of Jesus. Jesus said to the faithful of the New Covenant they would never see or taste death, (John 8:51-52), and those who believe in Him shall live, even though they die, and whoever lives and believes in Him shall never die, (John 11:25-26).

Once we have risen from spiritual death, and persevere in faith, we will not die to fall victim to death and Hades. We belong to the body of Christ and have, just as that body, eternal life only. When the believer dies when his soul is separated from his body, he will be at home with the Lord, (1Cor 5:8). Death no longer has dominion over him because he is united with Jesus Christ, the Head of the body, Who has conquered death, (Romans 6:9). On earth he lived m the power of the Holy Spirit, the same Spirit who raised Jesus from the dead, He who is united with such a Spirit will not enter death, and that Spirit will not abandon man when he dies. Timothy 1:10 says that Christ Jesus abolished death and has brought to light life and immortality through the gospel. That means He has done away with death.

God said to Adam: 'In the day that you eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall die.' For us, however, there is a tree of life, and those who eat of it will live forever. 'I am the bread of life. If any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever, and those who eat it shall not die', (John 6:48-51). The doctrine of the sleep of the soul interferes with the foundation, that is with Jesus Christ. It says that the spiritually resurrected will die again. This is a natural religion occupying itself with the visible world and not with the Kingdom of God, and of course in the natural world dead is dead.

The most well-known text in the bible is John 3:16: 'For God so loved the world that He gave his only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.' Because of this eternal life the inner man is able to go on, to persevere for ever. This life cannot be damaged by death, for it is sustained by the Holy Spirit. It is life of a high quality.

In 2Cor 5:1-10 Paul compares our death with the destruction of the earthly tent. He shows that even then the faithful have a building from God in heaven, an eternal house. The apostle longed for the moment of taking up a dwelling place in that heavenly house. It is a heavenly home, that is, a purely spiritual body. It functions in the unseen world only.

What is now the resurrection of the dead? Does it mean that the graves are opened and the tombstones lifted and dead people suddenly arise? But then how about those who died ages ago whose graves have vanished? How about the martyrs who were burned, their ashes strewn out in the river? The answer is in 1Cor 15:35-49: 'But some one will ask, 'How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come? You foolish man! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body which is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. But God gives it a body as He has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body.'

The kernel has the invisible life in itself and this life is the beginning of the new plant. The kernel does not produce a kernel, but a new plant which will produce new kernels later. The new life starts at regeneration and it grows just like a plant develops from the seed. The seed is not made alive, it dies. But that which was its life develops into a new plant.

In the same way the physical body that dies is not made alive again but decomposes in the same way as the outside of the kernel. The inner life develops into a new appearance, different from the seed, but in keeping with the laws of life that were hidden in it. From every seed an individual body develops. It may be a tree, a shrub, or some kind of corn or any other kind of plant. The plant that develops may be compared with the spiritual house. The seed that vanished decomposes to dust, picture of the natural body, but the plant itself develops in another atmosphere where there is light and air and sun.

When the Lord returns those who slept in Christ will be raised, they will arise first. Their spiritual body is raised (1Cor 15:44), but their physical body has long returned to dust and will not be raised.

Resurrection is a new life and work in the unseen world. Those who have fallen asleep have rested from their labors, but at a sign of the Most High they will arise and take up their work. The power of God gives substance to their spiritual bodies, giving it flesh and bones, similar to ;hat of the glorified Lord. At all times, however the spiritual body remains spiritual, that is subjected to spiritual laws only, not to earthly laws. For that reason it is not confined in time or place; this body cannot be localized or entered into a time-scheme.

Life in the body of resurrection is a mystery but I will try to draw you a weak comparison:
We know that water vapor is invisible. It is subject to the physical laws for gases. Water vapor is even able to penetrate walls. Under certain circumstances, however, it is transformed and becomes visible as water, fog, snow or hail, which are all subjected to the laws for solids or liquids. The Lord's immortal body was able to penetrate doors but at the same time Jesus said: 'See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have' (Luke 24:39). When Jesus ascended to heaven a cloud 'took Him out of their sight.' Now He is in the heavenly places only, although the possibility exists for our Lord to appear in a visible shape (Mark 16:12). This is what happened to John at Patmos, and to Paul, who is told that he is appointed 'to see the Just One and to hear a voice from his mouth' (Acts 22:14).

During his life on earth a Christian moves in two worlds. In his physical body he is on earth, 'away from the Lord' in a foreign country but his spiritual body (spirit and soul) is in Christ, that is in Christ's body. When he dies he is detached from the natural sphere and dwells with the Lord only. When Jesus returns to earth He is accompanied by the saints who have fallen asleep. When He appears they will appear with Him. The Christians who are alive left until the coming of the Lord. will be changed in a moment, 'in the twinkling of an eye,' and their perishable bodies will be transformed into immortal and glorified bodies. In these bodies they will be caught up to meet the Lord to join the saints who have already risen (1Thess 4:16-17). Then the time has come that the 'planting of the Lord' will be functioning anew and bear new fruit. These 'trees of life,' the bible says, will bear fruit twelve times, yielding it each month, and their leaves (the gifts of the spirit) are for the healing of the nations.

I have only addressed the First Resurrection. I will not include the Last Resurrection in this discussion here; (where the dead, small and great, will stand before the throne of God). I suspect that I am near exceeding the Post size of this Forum.

[WhiteWings]

Noob question about the spiritual an natural body.
Why was the natural body of Jesus gone 3 days after His death?
Has it anything to do with teh natural/spirtual body 'conversion'?
Or was it just done as extra proof that Jesus is special?

[Molly]

Noob question about the spiritual an natural body.
Why was the natural body of Jesus gone 3 days after His death?
Has it anything to do with teh natural/spirtual body 'conversion'?
Or was it just done as extra proof that Jesus is special?

Because his natural body was changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye...


Acts 13:35
Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

[Redlettervoice]

We are encompassed with a GREAT CLOUD of "witnesses." HE is
coming to "us" in this CLOUD, I believe.  Spirits
of Just Men made perfect.........gathered on Mt. Zion.  He is coming
with this HEAVENLY HOST.  To me, it is a personal coming.  I am of
the mind that He is come, has come, and will come.  I'm not sure
I believe in a bunch at one time, maybe so, but God shows me the
"bunch" is on MT. Zion known as the HOST of Heaven.  The HEAVENLY
HOST.  We will be reunited with "them", are being even NOW .......in the air, means in the
Spirit.  What goes on in the Spirit is NOT Seen by mortal eyes. 
What God is going to show to mortal eyes, I do not know, but I know
some about in the Spirit because I have "experienced" some of it...and
so have you.

The rapture thingy and the left behind stuff, like this remind me of the "multitude" that followed the Lord "afar off." Reminds me of a man
with only ONE LITTLE EWE Lamb. 

When the Word from the Lord says "Return unto ME, it means we listen
to no other VOICE but the Spirit that God put in us.  This is honoring
HIM, this is being "still" and knowing that "HE" is God, not Tim LaHaye
or any other, but this is a PROCESS, this is a "growing up" ...what
PAUL prayed for when he said "OH, that I might be found IN HIM,'
not having mine own righteousness, ....etc." We have to lay or put
our own righteousness down.......so that we will have the POWER to
pick up HIS.  The bible states that we "wait" for that righteousness.Righteousness is "something revealed" ......Romans 1
Unrighteousness is also "revealed" ........Romans 1But we do find it, the righteousness of God, because it comes when God sends it, remember that God works on a perfect timetable for OUR sakes....God brings this right righteousness  to us and clothes us with HIS.

Jesus grew in "stature" ....at one point He said plainly, "My FATHER
is GREATER than I."  Later, after [/b] He grew some more, He said
[color=In my Father's House are many mansions,maroon]MY FATHER and I are ONE[/color]!~  

......."He" knew at this point that He was IN the Father,
and the Father was in Him, and He in us."  And He said, "we'd KNOW."
Now how does this come about?  It comes thru the "annointing to
KNOW" .....1st John wrote you have an annointing to "KNOW" all things.
I believe that is about oneself........your own life.  Jesus said, when
they asked Him about those mansions, He said "WE Will come to you."
This is how YOU will "know" but the "world" will not. These people had
not "died" a "casket" death at this point, nevertheless, it is God's word.  Check out
the words in this section of scripture.  Enough of this manifesting of
what Jesus spoke of is bound to change the body atoms.  Nothing
is too hard for the Lord.  Nothing.

GILBERT: When the believer dies when his soul is separated from his body, he will be at home with the Lord, (1Cor 5:8). Death no longer has dominion over him because he is united with Jesus Christ, the Head of the body, Who has conquered death, (Romans 6:9).
RLV: Not only at "casket" death, are we to KNOW that "death has no more dominion over HIM"
but we are told in that section of scripture, to NOW recon ourselves "dead" ........and NOW "death" has no more dominion over us. The realm of "blessing AND cursing" has no more dominion. Jesus said, "I" am come that ye may have LIFE!!! All who came before me, were
theives and robbers.  What is HE and we robbed of? LIFE!  How so?  By a deathly mindset brought about "by the abuse of the law"....Jesus didn't come to "do away" with the LAW, but
to "fulfill" it.  Love is the fulfilling.   When we go from the "death" realm to the LIFE realm.
Again, Hebrews 9. 

RLV: We shall not "all" sleep.
'That' plainly says some will what? "AWAKE."  How do you do that?
And what do you "awaken" to?
Righteousness.  The true righteousness.
AWAKE unto righteousness, for some do not have the knowledge of God.
So awakening to His Righteousness imputed to give us "belief" has to do with what? 
The KNOWLEDGE OF GOD.
For some shall not sleep.  But shall be "changed" ............must be thru the knowledge of God!That will bring us to the realm of death that now has NO MORE DOMINION over us, so how
can you not conquer all that God intends for you to?  You will. Read that close what I just said.
The knowledge of God is NOT the knowledge of the tree of knowledge, that will not awaken us.
But the knowledge of God is the "WATER" that will cover the earth, promised. The HEAVENLY
WATER that comes from where? ABOVE.  From a HEAVENLY Priest sitting on the right hand
of the Father, henceforth .........expecting ..........
1st Cor. 15 - check me out on that, for that is where it is.
What "is" the true righteousness? 
Well it is NOT having mine own.........will have to LAY "that" down!EBY: His words were music to my ears.
So were "Cardinals" .......So were YOURS.
RLV: When I contemplate the "change" that is goi
to happen in a twinkling of an eye........I do believe
it is the change of the atoms.  I have grown right
here in this study.  Thank you all.
Remember JOB "Yet in this flesh, shall I see God.
And he spake of his C H A N G E.

Molly: I think Gilbert is right about the "last" overcoming.
We are all wrestling to overcome by strength the princapalities,
powers, rulers of darkness, and last spiritual wickedness in HIGH PLACES.
That is in the heavens.
But really, we are just waiting...........for when things come to a point,
God Himself does "come down" to destroy that which says it is God and
is not.  And HE Himself "speaks" to and thru us to do that.

RLV: One more aspect.  When Jesus said, "A "body" thou hast prepared
me.......is it connected to "I go away to prepare a place for you, that
where I am, there may ye be...." "And to each SEED, His own BODY,
.........somebody speak up here.

[Gilbert]

We are encompassed with a GREAT CLOUD of "witnesses." HE is
coming to "us" in this CLOUD, I believe.  Spirits
of Just Men made perfect.........gathered on Mt. Zion.  He is coming
with this HEAVENLY HOST.  To me, it is a personal coming.  I am of
the mind that He is come, has come, and will come.  I'm not sure
I believe in a bunch at one time, maybe so, but God shows me the
"bunch" is on MT. Zion known as the HOST of Heaven.  The HEAVENLY
HOST.  We will be reunited with "them", are being even NOW .......in the air, means in the
Spirit.  What goes on in the Spirit is NOT Seen by mortal eyes. 
What God is going to show to mortal eyes, I do not know, but I know
some about in the Spirit because I have "experienced" some of it...and
so have you.

The rapture thingy and the left behind stuff, like this remind me of the "multitude" that followed the Lord "afar off." Reminds me of a man
with only ONE LITTLE EWE Lamb. 

When the Word from the Lord says "Return unto ME, it means we listen
to no other VOICE but the Spirit that God put in us.  This is honoring
HIM, this is being "still" and knowing that "HE" is God, not Tim LaHaye
or any other, but this is a PROCESS, this is a "growing up" ...what
PAUL prayed for when he said "OH, that I might be found IN HIM,'
not having mine own righteousness, ....etc." We have to lay or put
our own righteousness down.......so that we will have the POWER to
pick up HIS.  The bible states that we "wait" for that righteousness.Righteousness is "something revealed" ......Romans 1
Unrighteousness is also "revealed" ........Romans 1But we do find it, the righteousness of God, because it comes when God sends it, remember that God works on a perfect timetable for OUR sakes....God brings this right righteousness  to us and clothes us with HIS.

Jesus grew in "stature" ....at one point He said plainly, "My FATHER
is GREATER than I."  Later, after [/b] He grew some more, He said
[color=In my Father's House are many mansions,maroon]MY FATHER and I are ONE[/color]!~  

......."He" knew at this point that He was IN the Father,
and the Father was in Him, and He in us."  And He said, "we'd KNOW."
Now how does this come about?  It comes thru the "annointing to
KNOW" .....1st John wrote you have an annointing to "KNOW" all things.
I believe that is about oneself........your own life.  Jesus said, when
they asked Him about those mansions, He said "WE Will come to you."
This is how YOU will "know" but the "world" will not. These people had
not "died" a "casket" death at this point, nevertheless, it is God's word.  Check out
the words in this section of scripture.  Enough of this manifesting of
what Jesus spoke of is bound to change the body atoms.  Nothing
is too hard for the Lord.  Nothing.

GILBERT: When the believer dies when his soul is separated from his body, he will be at home with the Lord, (1Cor 5:8). Death no longer has dominion over him because he is united with Jesus Christ, the Head of the body, Who has conquered death, (Romans 6:9).
RLV: Not only at "casket" death, are we to KNOW that "death has no more dominion over HIM"
but we are told in that section of scripture, to NOW recon ourselves "dead" ........and NOW "death" has no more dominion over us. The realm of "blessing AND cursing" has no more dominion. Jesus said, "I" am come that ye may have LIFE!!! All who came before me, were
theives and robbers.  What is HE and we robbed of? LIFE!  How so?  By a deathly mindset brought about "by the abuse of the law"....Jesus didn't come to "do away" with the LAW, but
to "fulfill" it.  Love is the fulfilling.   When we go from the "death" realm to the LIFE realm.
Again, Hebrews 9. 

RLV: We shall not "all" sleep.
'That' plainly says some will what? "AWAKE."  How do you do that?
And what do you "awaken" to?
Righteousness.  The true righteousness.
AWAKE unto righteousness, for some do not have the knowledge of God.
So awakening to His Righteousness imputed to give us "belief" has to do with what? 
The KNOWLEDGE OF GOD.
For some shall not sleep.  But shall be "changed" ............must be thru the knowledge of God!That will bring us to the realm of death that now has NO MORE DOMINION over us, so how
can you not conquer all that God intends for you to?  You will. Read that close what I just said.
The knowledge of God is NOT the knowledge of the tree of knowledge, that will not awaken us.
But the knowledge of God is the "WATER" that will cover the earth, promised. The HEAVENLY
WATER that comes from where? ABOVE.  From a HEAVENLY Priest sitting on the right hand
of the Father, henceforth .........expecting ..........
1st Cor. 15 - check me out on that, for that is where it is.
What "is" the true righteousness? 
Well it is NOT having mine own.........will have to LAY "that" down!EBY: His words were music to my ears.
So were "Cardinals" .......So were YOURS.
RLV: When I contemplate the "change" that is goi
to happen in a twinkling of an eye........I do believe
it is the change of the atoms.  I have grown right
here in this study.  Thank you all.
Remember JOB "Yet in this flesh, shall I see God.
And he spake of his C H A N G E.

Molly: I think Gilbert is right about the "last" overcoming.
We are all wrestling to overcome by strength the princapalities,
powers, rulers of darkness, and last spiritual wickedness in HIGH PLACES.
That is in the heavens.
But really, we are just waiting...........for when things come to a point,
God Himself does "come down" to destroy that which says it is God and
is not.  And HE Himself "speaks" to and thru us to do that.

RLV: One more aspect.  When Jesus said, "A "body" thou hast prepared
me.......is it connected to "I go away to prepare a place for you, that
where I am, there may ye be...." "And to each SEED, His own BODY,
.........somebody speak up here.

Hi! RedLetterVoice

Whew! Yuh shure made alot of pertinent points here.

Here are some additional items that might be helpful to consider:

The "inner man" or the "hidden man of the heart" is what the Bible terms the 'spiritual body'. The "inner man" consists of soul and spirit.

With the creation of man, God created something which is similar to His own being. Because man is created in the image of God; we should not be surprised to learn that the existence/form of man is similar to God. Because God is a person with a spiritual body, man also has a spiritual body. Because God has a spiritual heart, man also has one. Man can speak, see, and hear, (in both the visible and invisible world), because God can do this.This not only goes for the spiritual body of man, but also for his natural body. The visible is connected to the invisible and is an image of it.

While man has God's likeness, he is not equal to God. Man is not a being which is identical to God; rather, one who fitted God harmoniously in every aspect. God has laid a unique principle of growth, development and evolution in this human being so that, by and in relationship with God, he could grow into both a natural and spiritual adulthood. Man would enjoy a life on a level worthy to God and in a loving and working relationship with God. So it is that the Psalmist sings: "For You have made him a little lower than the angels, and have crowned him with glory and honor. You made him rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet",(Psalm 8:5,6). This does not point to the imperfect man (nature), but to the still immature man (stature).

Because we possess a spiritual body, (because we possess a spirit and soul), there resides deeply within every man a concept of eternity and of the eternal God. Within everyone is a need to understand and live from out of our attachment to the unseen world. This is why an awareness of God, a need for eternity and a longing for God yearns to develop and mature within us. At the start, we follow our awareness and proclaim: God is. He is the beginning of all things. All things came of Him, for Him, and to Him. Later, this confession has the potential to lead us to a complete and true perception of God. Afterwards, we begin to exchange the tiresome shout of, "This is what I believe!", for "This is what I have seen and heard".

God is (a) spirit, (John 4:24). God is immaterial. God knows no growth, no evolution, God is eternal. These same characterizations are also found in the beings that God called into being with the creation of the heaven: the angels. They are immaterial; they know no growth, no evolution. They will exist until eternity. Hebrews 1:14 tells us they are ministering spirits.

In the spiritual world we should not think in terms of place and space. In the spiritual world there are no locations; only situations. In the spiritual world, the matter of 'time' also has a different meaning. It is always attached to the continuance of a particular process. God does not think in terms of hours, days or months. Rather, only the stage of a certain process is normative to Him.

However, with the creation of earth, God used other principles. He formed the matter, substance, and built an entire material world with it. In this world, (similar to the spiritual world), God created unique possibilities of growth and development too. In this world God created centers of growth through which God's "intentions" would be revealed through a process of development. On the earth we think in terms of place, space and time; transitionary instead of eternity.

We might be inclined to think that the visible world and invisible worlds cannot be united; two worlds which are so utterly different. But the exact opposite is true. The visible, material world does not exist independently. It is influenced, carried and controlled from the spiritual world. Heaven exists for earth; earth exists for heaven. They 'belong' to each other and are complementary to each other. God is not only King of heaven, but also of earth. God created two worlds which, at first glance, seem completely different from each other, but on closer examination, reveal themselves as completely belonging to each other.

God created these two worlds especially with regard to man. In His infinite wisdom and grandness, God considered this combination as the correct one for man. An angel is created only for the spiritual world and therefore has an existence in one world only. Plants and animals were created for the natural world and they live only on the earth. Because God would create man for one life in two worlds at the same time, all the laws of the spiritual world and all the eternal within that world flow together forming the unique principle of growth and development which is the very basis of the natural world.

Thus, it can justly be said that man is the crown of God's creation; in man all 'different parts' combine. In man is both the material and the immaterial; growth and eternity are clenched together in one being. Consequently, man would be able to mature and develop into God's partner and to live eternally in a relationship based on love with God. Man, together with God, could and would be able to rule the heaven and the earth. That's how God thought of it. Everything that was created in heaven and on earth could contribute to that ultimate purpose and plan of God. That is how God had intended it to be; it was with this intent that God created everything.

The heaven and the earth exist for us. That's how God originally intended it to be. From the very original plan of God everything has its individual task and destiny; all focused on an abundance that characterizes God: generous, full, and overflowing. As such there could be life and abundance for everything and all. Therefore, it is exceedingly important for us to obtain an insight in God's original plan with man. We want to get to know Him, 'who is from the beginning', (1John 2:13). We want to love God; that is love His plan with our lives. In this way God will be able to reveal and give Himself more and more to us; so that the heaven and the earth, with all in it, including man(kind) shall be as God intended 'in the beginning'.

[Molly]

I'd like to talk a little more about what ww pointed out.

The tomb of Jesus is empty!  The body is risen from death.

Look what acts says, isn't it is at the moment of resurrection [of the physical body] that God says he is 'begotten'?

More so, even though his physical body is dead, it is not allowed to be corrupted by death.

Therefore, death never touches him.

That word, 'begotten' is an important one: it's different from the word used in John 3:16.



[today I have] "begotten" [you]
G1080
γεννάω
gennaō
ghen-nah'-o
From a variation of G1085; to procreate (properly of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively to regenerate: - bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.

G1085
γένος
genos
ghen'-os
From G1096; "kin" (abstractly or concretely, literally or figuratively, individually or collectively): - born, country (-man), diversity, generation, kind (-red), nation, offspring, stock.








26"Brothers, sons of the family of Abraham, and those among you who fear God, to us has been sent the message of this salvation. 27For those who live in Jerusalem and their rulers, because they did not recognize him nor understand the utterances of the prophets, which are read every Sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him. 28And though they found in him no guilt worthy of death, they asked Pilate to have him executed. 29And when they had carried out all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb. 30But God raised him from the dead, 31and for many days he appeared to those who had come up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem,who are now his witnesses to the people. 32And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers, 33 this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm,

    "'You are my Son,
   today I have begotten you.'

34And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he has spoken in this way,

   "'I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.'

35Therefore he says also in another psalm,

    "'You will not let your Holy One see corruption.'

--Acts 13

[WhiteWings]

Noob question about the spiritual an natural body.
Why was the natural body of Jesus gone 3 days after His death?
Has it anything to do with teh natural/spirtual body 'conversion'?
Or was it just done as extra proof that Jesus is special?

Because his natural body was changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye...

I know Molly. Naugthy me was just baiting the trap  :winkgrin:
Part of this thread was about the question if we really die. Soul sleep. The body is transformed or a totally new body.
The body of Jesus was gone. If we can assume it wasn't stolen or taken away by God then the body Jesus appeared in after His death was not a new body but a transformed body.
So if Jesus needed His old body to get ressurected doesn't that mean He stopped breathing. Doesn't it also mean all the dead bodies that are in the grave right now aren't resurrected yet. Maybe there soul sleeps or is awake somewhere; but there bodies are still here and most of the bodies have seen lots of corruption. Actually the majority has turned to dust.
So I think it's very important to understand the meaning of the empty tomb.

[Molly]

Noob question about the spiritual an natural body.
Why was the natural body of Jesus gone 3 days after His death?
Has it anything to do with teh natural/spirtual body 'conversion'?
Or was it just done as extra proof that Jesus is special?

Because his natural body was changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye...

I know Molly. Naugthy me was just baiting the trap  :winkgrin:
Part of this thread was about the question if we really die. Soul sleep. The body is transformed or a totally new body.
The body of Jesus was gone. If we can assume it wasn't stolen or taken away by God then the body Jesus appeared in after His death was not a new body but a transformed body.
So if Jesus needed His old body to get ressurected doesn't that mean He stopped breathing. Doesn't it also mean all the dead bodies that are in the grave right now aren't resurrected yet. Maybe there soul sleeps or is awake somewhere; but there bodies are still here and most of the bodies have seen lots of corruption. Actually the majority has turned to dust.
So I think it's very important to understand the meaning of the empty tomb.

Yes, and if we are begotten [gennao] of God at the moment of resurrection of the body, does this statement make more sense?



12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born [gennao], not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

--John 1


The sons of God are alive in an immortal body!

[WhiteWings]

Yes, and if we are begotten [gennao] of God at the moment of resurrection of the body, does this statement make more sense?

The sons of God are alive in an immortal body!

It doesn't may any sense to me. I not sure what you are trying to say.
Let's start with a simple question.
When is the resurrection of the body?
Shortly after death or a unknown moment is the (far) future.
Note:I'm speaking only the body of flesh and blood.

[Molly]

Yes, and if we are begotten [gennao] of God at the moment of resurrection of the body, does this statement make more sense?

The sons of God are alive in an immortal body!

It doesn't may any sense to me. I not sure what you are trying to say.
Let's start with a simple question.
When is the resurrection of the body?
Shortly after death or a unknown moment is the (far) future.
Note:I'm speaking only the body of flesh and blood.

The resurrection of the body happens *when* we are begotten of God--

*when* we become the second Adam--a quickening spirit.

Do we have to wait for death for that to happen?  Not necessarily.  Not all will sleep.

That's what makes the most sense to me...


Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.



"firstborn" [of many brothers]

G4416
πρωτοτόκος
prōtotokos
pro-tot-ok'-os
From G4413 and the alternate of G5088; first born (usually as noun, literally or figuratively): - firstbegotten (-born).

[WhiteWings]

That's not an answer to my question Molly. So I'll rephrase the question in a very simple way.
A very good Christian dies and gets buried. A month later we open the grave.
Is it empty?
Yes or No?

[Molly]

That's not an answer to my question Molly. So I'll rephrase the question in a very simple way.
A very good Christian dies and gets buried. A month later we open the grave.
Is it empty?
Yes or No?

As far as I know--so far, no--with some exceptions, as already mentioned.

But no man knows the time--and these things are happening in stages.

And, the resurrection of the body, first seen in Jesus,  is the last stage--

This is actually talked about as a birth...



21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

--Rom 8

[Seth]

That's not an answer to my question Molly. So I'll rephrase the question in a very simple way.
A very good Christian dies and gets buried. A month later we open the grave.
Is it empty?
Yes or No?

WW, here is my answer as I understand it. A believer dies. He sleeps in Christ (without knowledge that he is dead for as the scripture says, there is no knowledge in the grave). Because those who are alive shall not go before those who are dead, and because the patriarchs died having not received the promise that they will not be perfected without us, the entire church will be perfected together all at once. That means, when that happens when you open the graves there will be nothing there. The bodies will be clothed with Christ, even as Christ (who already had the Holy Spirit) prayed to God to clothe him with with Himself. It is all one Spirit.

The reason the graves will be empty is NOT because God has to do it that way. God can do anything he wants. It just so happens that he reveals victory over death THROUGH resurrection OF the dead. So empty graves reveal that victory to the world even as Christ's empty grave revealed that victory to his disciples and to those who believe though they do not see. This doesn't mean that I believe in some cataclysmic event whereby the resurrection will be visible, but that the visibly empty graves show that death is destroyed.

Jesus Christ is the resurrection, both in terms of the way we are raised in the likeness of the resurrection, and how we attain the resurrection of the dead. First we are to be clothed with Christ in that our minds are renewed, and then we are to be clothed with his immortality so that death (that is ALL death) shall be destroyed by resurrection, all of it is "himself."

[Gilbert]

That's not an answer to my question Molly. So I'll rephrase the question in a very simple way.
A very good Christian dies and gets buried. A month later we open the grave.
Is it empty?
Yes or No?

As far as I know--so far, no--with some exceptions, as already mentioned.

But no man knows the time--and these things are happening in stages.

And, the resurrection of the body, first seen in Jesus,  is the last stage--

This is actually talked about as a birth...



21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

--Rom 8

Hi! Molly and WhiteWings

If you don't mind, I would like to insert a comment to this discussion, because it has peeked my curiosity much. There are many ideas concerning this subject; so I might as well contribute my own to mess things up even more, huh?

Remember this Scripture found in Matthew 27:51-53?
"And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many"

In the telling the story of Jesus' suffering, death and resurrection the popular evangelists of our day mainly address themselves to what takes place in the visible world. They speak about the betrayer, about the garden of Gethsemane, and about Jesus' suffering there, which became almost unbearable and turned his sweat into drops of blood falling down upon the ground. They also tell how Jesus was given up into the hands of sinners, how He was mocked, beaten, injured and crucified by them. We also read that His dead body was put in a grave and we are given much information about the events taking place after the resurrection.

Only occasionally, here an' there is a corner lifted of the veil which hides from sight the tremendous events which were happening in the kingdom of heaven at the same time.

Matthew mentions the tombs that were opened and the dead who were then raised in the moment when Jesus gave up the ghost.
From the moment when Jesus prayed in Gethsemane, the Holy Spirit had withdrawn and Jesus was forsaken by God. Before He gave up the ghost, His last words were a loud cry to the Father to be united again with His 'hand'; meaning to say: with the Holy Spirit. His last thoughts here on earth are contained in this cry: "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit". Then Jesus entered the realm of the dead.

In Isaiah 14 we read how the king of Babylon once caused a great tumult in the realm of the dead when he made his entrance there. The kings of the nations were amazed and rose from their thrones when this mighty king descended to the place where they were. But, lest we fail to comprehend: how much greater was the commotion when the Prince of life, united with the Spirit of life, made an appearance in the realm of the dead!

The story of Matthew is a representation of the events which took place in the world of the spirits. The curtain between the outer and the inner sancturary was torn in two. This veil symbolized the fact that, in the Old Covenant, access to the heavenly sanctuary and the throne of God was closed. Now the way to the Father was opened. Henceforth, the inner man would be able to enter the Kingdom of God. Man was enabled to depart the kingdom of darkness and find life in the kingdom of God.

But the possibility was also created that those who were in the tombs, that is, in the realm of death, could be placed into the Paradise of God. All of this took place with great tumult and commotion, not only in heaven, but also on earth; for the earth reacted in earthquakes and the splitting of rocks. The visible as well as the unseen things were shaken, as it says: "Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heaven".

It hardly makes sense if we believe that the tombs around Jerusalem were opened to let the dead come out of their graves. Even for Jesus it was not necessary that the stone be removed from in front of His grave, for He was able to move through closed doors. Neither is the resurrection described here limited to the small number of righteous people of all ages who happened to be buried in the burial caves and tombs geographically around Jerusalem. No, we are not speaking here about a regional resurrection.

Who are the dead saints who were raised, and in what kind of body did they arise?
I believe they were the righteous who during their life looked forward to the day of Christ. They knew they were strangers and sojourners on earth, and they looked forward to a better country, that is, a heavenly one. For them too God had prepared a dwelling place: the holy city, the new Jerusalem.

By the arrival of Jesus in the realm of death many saints were raised. Many who were in the tombs, that is, who dwelled in the realm of death, heard the voice of the Lord, and this was the sign for them to prepare to enter the Holy City with Jesus. To them too applied that a natural body was sown but a spiritual body raised. Their inner man, their soul and spirit, was clothed with the garment of righteousness which the Lord now gave them, and then they arose.

These spiritual people remained in the realm of death until Jesus left it and manifested Himself on earth in His glorified body. His humiliated but not decayed body in the grave of Joseph of Arimathea was changed in a point of time and taken up, swallowed up, in His spiritual body. Thus He became the example for all who will remain alive until the Day, whose bodies will be tranformed in a point of time.

As the Lord manifested Himself, so the resurrected saints also appeared with Him to many brothers on earth. This shows that we should not think that the Holy City is the old Jerusalem. Jerusalem was a city which killed the prophets and stoned those God sent to her. This city is allegorically called Sodom and Egypt. The resurrected saints did not go into the geographical holy city to appear there to many. Rather they went into the Holy City in heaven and appeared to many on earth; for instance to the crowd of believers on the mountain in Galilee. They left the realm of death for good and now live in the Kingdom of God, just like all of us who are born again and thus have gone from death to life.

[Molly]

1The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

2Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the LORD out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.

--John 20



We first witness the risen Christ when it is still dark.  All we see is the empty tomb.  There is nothing there.  We don't quite comprehend what has happened.  Where is the body?  Did they take it somewhere?  Was it stolen? hidden?

Later, we still see dimly.  We still can't recognize or comprehend what we are seeing.



11But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,

12And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.

13And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my LORD, and I know not where they have laid him.

14And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.

--John 20



When do we know. then? When do we really believe?  When he finally calls our name and we turn and truly see him as he is, the resurrected Christ.



16Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.

--John 20

[Beloved Servant]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfFdGbdlyzI

[Redlettervoice]

.


Gilbert wrote:In his baptism the believer testifies that he has entered into the 'narrow gate,' Jesus Christ and that he has put his feet on the road which leads upward in the Kingdom of God (Matt 7:13). The biblical order is: He who believes and is baptized! The bible further mentions 'the washing of regeneration', (Titus 3:5). This means that the word of God is active as a cleansing bath in water. For that reason the bible speaks of 'the washing of water with the word' (Eph 5:27). As in natural life water cleanses a person from dirt, so the inner man is purified or cleansed of the guilt of his sins by a spiritual immersion in the words of God. These words wash him, and he is resurrected as a new man in righteousness. The Lord said to his disciples: 'You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you', (John 15:3).

RLV: The Lord washes us with his word because He is like
a husband to present us unto Himself without spot, He washes all
the spots out.  That is what is meant by w/o spot or blemish. 

In Hebrews the last part, it speaks of us "entering" in thru the veil,
and I believe that it is LOVE that penetrates the veil so that we can
go thru ........actually expericening what Jesus has provided.......
and that veil is HIS BODY, or HIS Flesh, not man's flesh, but HIS
Flesh, and we are told to "boldly" enter, having our "BODIES"
w a s h e d..........bodies washed? .......that seems to be a very
important point. 

anyone want to comment? on that washing of the body?



Here is one more thing I noticed that I wanted to point out.......


Henceforth, the inner man would be able to enter the Kingdom of God. Man was enabled to depart the kingdom of darkness and find life in the kingdom of God.