Does universalism make gay and lesbian marriages okay?

[james.goetz]

Does universalism make gay and lesbian marriages okay?

I believe that the answer is "no", but I want to get a general feel for how other universalists see this issue.

Blessings:)

[Pierac]

No,

Sin is sin, we are to resist evil, yet never fail to love the sinner.  :HeartThrob:


Paul

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I second that........ :HeartThrob:

[Kept]

There are diverse beliefs in universalism

we are not a denomination with a creed if you will

If the old tentmaker forum were here you would find pages after pages of debates on that topic and all kinds of views in the members

kept

[Kratos]

I do not see where the belief in UR changes anything about what is sin and what is not.

John

[dboutwell]

I do not see where the belief in UR changes anything about what is sin and what is not.

Me either.

[SeekerSA]

Scripture and the Spiritual is always like this:

First the Natural then the Spiritual.

One flesh has many layers of interpretation.  The 1st layer is about a man leaving a mother an cleaving to a wife (not a man/husband).

What is natural about man + man or woman + woman?

[pickr]

No. Universalism is simply the belief that Jesus is the savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

As has been said, it does not declare sin to not be sin.

Peace and blessings,

Andy

[firstborn888]

See? We're good heretics. Not evil heretics.  :laughing7:

[Loveroftruth]

See? We're good heretics. Not evil heretics.  :laughing7:

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

[Cardinal]

 :laughing7:

[Cardinal]

 :laughing7: :happygrin:  :dontknow:

[SeekerSA]

Just what was in that Injection Seeker :laughing7:

Dunno, but I have my sense of humour Back - Hoo boy another pun  :laughing7:

[hopeful]

 :rolllol:

[reFORMer]

See? We're good heretics. Not evil heretics.  :laughing7:

I'm a better heretic than I used to be.  What kind of extra points do I get, if any?

---James

[Taffy]

See? We're good heretics. Not evil heretics.  :laughing7:

I'm a better heretic than I used to be.  What kind of extra points do I get, if any?

---James

Sure James....A nice Gold star coming up
(http://soleilimg1.free.fr/gifs/ciel/etoiles/etoil029.gif)

[pickr]

One more thought on marriage, generally.

Why is it that so many people believe that the sanctity of marriage depends upon the protection of government? The whole idea of marriage licenses, tax deductions, even things like probate and medical decisions and the like smacks to me of interference more than it does of protection.

Do I think gay or lesbian marriages are okay? No. Were I a pastor, I would not perform such a ceremony, and it does sadden me that there are such pastors. Yet, if the government can interfere with such day-to-day decisions of gays and lesbians, it follows (at least IMO) that it can do the same to everyone. It's almost like what is being chiefly opposed in the final analysis is the government benefit of marriage. Gays and lesbians have been marrying themselves for a long time. And my guess is that they will continue to do so.

I feel similarly about prayer in the public schools. Why is it that so many think it's not only okay, but right and proper, for the government (through a school board or through a principal, a teacher, or whoever) play a role in any child's prayer life? For the life of me, I can't understand this.

I tend to believe that this experiment in representative government is fragile, and that it has served us best when it does the least possible. Therefore, I think (politically speaking) I am morphing into something of a libertarian. Yikes!

Peace,

Andy

[SeekerSA]

Dearly beloved, we are gathered here today in the er.. um.. sight of um.. God

To join together this man and er.. um man? in holy matrimony       ...................................................................

What er.. um.. God er .. um.. has er.. um... joined together lets scrap that shall we?

By the power vested in me by the state of _________ and God I now pronounce you Husband and er.. um.. um...... um....

You may now kiss the... the... the....

Oh shucks I give up!  :mshock:

Yer married

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: It's just a piece of man's paper anyway. If God joins you, it's spiritual. Very few marriages has God joined, I imagine. He just winks a lot...... :winkgrin:

[pickr]

Lol... Seeker!  :thumbsup:

Ironically, your illustrative (and hillarious) script sort of fits into the point I was trying to make... that sometimes maybe we have this tendency to confuse some government-regulated legality for what ought to be a blessing from God.

I think that also fits into what Cardinal said about a piece of paper. What have we come to when the blessing we seek so earnestly to protect is from men (in this case, the government)?

Personally, I am far more bothered by pastors(!) who find themselves able to say that God blesses something God says is sinful than I am by human judges saying that human law requires equivalent treatment of gays and lesbians for the purposes of taxes, probate, health decisions, etc.

Anyway... it''s a crazy world we live in. Seems to get crazier day by day.

Peace,

Andy

P.S. I hope your headache is better. :)

[reFORMer]

(I very much agree that the belief in the ultimate salvation of all mankind changes nothing as far as what is or is not sin.)

Only about 3 or 4% of the U.S. population is homosexual.  Some would argue that the actual number is half that.  Out of these, only about 4% of male homosexuals maintain (semi) monogamous relationships for longer than 2 years.  I wonder why the big "push" in media and government over this.  As legislation it really has a back door entrance for anti-Christ(ian) establishment.

Yet if we have the love of God in us we should manifest it with patience to all men, including homosexuals.  It becomes more difficult when it's illegal to speak, even as one's own experience, of being cleansed, sanctified and justified from such "in the name of the Lord Jesus, and the Spirit of our God."  That presupposes they are not inheriting the kingdom of God. (1 Cor 9-11)  This is being treated as a prosecutable offense, even in parts of the USA.  (Focus on the Family has some material on the developing legal situation.)

The world has been very much more crazy before the stone cut out without hands became such a great mountain.  The bureaucracies of the previous world orders (at least 3 out of 4) were commandeered by their 3rd sex:  the eunuchs.  In the Roman Empire Jesus was born into it was so dominant that the nobility often castrated their sons that they might gain an advantage in government positions.  These people were used as sex objects by both men and women.  As women in those days were more significantly seen as bearers of heirs and eunuchs couldn't make them pregnant, their husbands tended to ignor wives affairs with them.  Some men preferred their eunuch(s) to their wives.  With the growth of modern homosexuality the parallels sholuld be seen as significant, particularly with the successful anti-Christian lobbying for gay "special rights."  The free exercise of religion and speech of the first amendment is being replaced in some states with thought crime legislation.

What is released by those in the celestials is why these things are released for carnal expression in the terrestrial realm.  This is what Jesus teaches.  When those who are supposed to be espoused as a virgin bride (the church) to one husband have another mediator in bed with them saying, " you must go through me to love your husband;" when men who are to be led by the Holy Spirit are instead led by other men, which is a kind of spiritual sodomy, the result is the proliferation of those same sins in the lower fleshy realms.

[Nancy]

hi there all,
My problem with this is that i haven't got a problem with gays.  If they stay monogomous, so what! Why should this matter to me? It is easy to judge when you don't know anyone who is actually gay, much harder to judge when you do, as i do. 
If God made you gay, are you meant to spend it celibate all your life or to have a relationship with someone and to think of yourself as a sinner!  Anyway i read somewhere else that the Apostle Paul was talking about using homosexual sex as a temple prostitue.   
And even if it is wrong, aren't there lots of things that we do every day that are just as sinful for we have all sinned.  Why are sexual sins made to be the more terrible ones.  Didn't Christ die for us whilst we WERE STILL SINNERS, even gay sinners!
Anyway i'd rather see two men kissing and killing each other.
Godbless
Nancy

[reFORMer]

The way God made me when I was born I was dirtying my diapers.  I didn't stay that way.

[Taffy]

Guys..

The topic of Homosexuality always has conflict and opinions do vary ...each has their views...

Just dont wish to see the tread Blow up.... :icon_flower:

We all reap what we sow....

Blessings
Taffy

[pickr]

Hiya Nancy,

Believe it or not, I don't think we're all that far apart. Of course we are all sinners. And I don't think homosexual sin is any worse or better than the sins to which I (or anyone else for that matter) am prone. All fall short of the glory of God.

As a citizen of the United States, I believe it is improper (and actually pretty dangerous) for our government to impose itself as the arbiter of marriage. The government should restrict itself to the contractual aspects and leave the spiritual definitions to free individuals, whether heterosexual or homosexual.

But as a Christian, my hope is to remain free to believe that God does not grant His blessing on our sinful ways, rather that He gives us the guidance and help we need for the building up of the new creature in Chriist. I don't wish to condemn homosexuals as though I am more holy than they. And I hope I am not doing that, because I know I am not more holy.

Perhaps I am being double-minded on this? I hope not.

Peace and blessings,

Andy