Does universalism make gay and lesbian marriages okay?

[Cardinal]

reFORMer said; "What is released by those in the celestials is why these things are released for carnal expression in the terrestrial realm.  This is what Jesus teaches.  When those who are supposed to be espoused as a virgin bride (the church) to one husband have another mediator in bed with them saying, "you must go through me to love your husband;" when men who are to be led by the Holy Spirit are instead led by other men, which is a kind of spiritual sodomy, the result is the proliferation of those same sins in the lower fleshy realms."

:thumbsup: Thank you. That is what I have been sharing in several posts. The spiritual priesthood (celestial) is the problem, as the Lord told me. Blessings to you......

[Kratos]

I think we fall into the enemy's snare when we buy into the lie that there is such a thing as homosexuality. God created them male and female. Period. There is nothing in between except in the carnal mind and in the kosmos.

There are those who sin heterosexually by having sex outside the confines of marriage and there are those who sin homosexually which is always outside the confines of marriage.

Accepting that there is another class of humans or another sexual orientation or catagory is a mistake from the get go. Sin is about what we do. Period. It is never about what we are.

A person who sins sexually with whomever is sinning. Homosexuality is a lie from the pit and we do great harm especially to confused teen agers agreeing that this is a possibility to be explored. All of us are flesh and have urges that go contrary to God and they are to be resisted and to be delivered from.

Kratos

[imwm]

This is a little off topic from the original thread idea so I'm sorry if it's out of place...

If God made you gay, are you meant to spend it celibate all your life or to have a relationship with someone and to think of yourself as a sinner!

This is an issue I have been curious about.

What causes someone to be physically attracted to someone of the same gender? I know it is not a choice, even some "former gays" believe that, but if it's not a choice, then what is it?

I think there is some scientific evidence of genetics being involved, but it sure seems like God wouldn't want anyone to be born in a way that naturally tempts them toward a sinful lifestyle, and makes a normal, healthy lifestyle impossible.

Notice other genetic problems - being born blind or without limbs, things like that - don't tempt people to sin necessarily any more than "normal," healthy people.

So I have to believe it would be wrong for God to allow people to be "born that way" unless He has a plan to change them. After all, some people do get healed of their physical problems...

The issue is, I am now skeptical of the whole "ex-gay" thing. The most famous "former gay" and spokesman of one of the major programs, John Paulk, was caught leaving a gay bar in 2000.

Furthermore, even on some of the testimonies at stonewallrevisited.com (a site by John Paulk with testimonies from "former gays"), the men say the temptation is still there and that it is difficult to not give in. (It makes me wonder if they have really changed, or if they are just in denial...)

There was a 20/20 segment about these ex-gay programs, and it mentioned that they take years to complete and throughout the process the men (or women too I guess) can't identify themselves as gay... which is just being in denial because it's true. The reporter on the segment talked to a man in the middle of one of those programs and she asked him something to the effect of "are you still gay?" He just kept answering her, "I'm a man." It's obvious he wasn't changed, he was still struggling with being homosexual. (There's more info along the lines of this at truthwinsout.org)

I know God can change a homosexual person to being straight, I'm certainly not denying that, but if these ex-gay programs (which convert people to Christianity and have intensive therapy to change people back) can't end up with people who are actually not gay anymore, then does God really change people? If these people, who devote their life to not being gay, still can't "turn back", then does God actually change anyone?

I'm sure it's not that He wants anyone to lead a homosexual lifestyle, but since I haven't seen any evidence of gays who have actually been changed completely without the help of an ex-gay program (which I don't believe actually helps anyway), I'm just not sure He does anything about it.

So does God just want some people to suffer through this life without being able to lead a normal lifestyle (marriage/family)?  :dontknow:

edit: I hope my post doesn't have too much of a negative tone, I really didn't mean for it to sound that way, this is just something that has been confusing me  :sigh:

[Hennessey]

imwm God can remake a man or woman, homosexual or heterosexual and promiscuous as a virgin. Sex is not the end all of life and lest we forget we are sojourners in this present world. We might even find ourselves called to abstinence in a number of areas of our life.

Blessings,

Jack

[imwm]

imwm God can remake a man or woman, homosexual or heterosexual and promiscuous as a virgin. Sex is not the end all of life and lest we forget we are sojourners in this present world. We might even find ourselves called to abstinence in a number of areas.

Blessings,

Jack

I realize sex is not the most important thing in life, but at the same time remember, homosexuals can't have families or marriages (at least not ones that God would approve of) - that's pretty harsh :(

It's just that I don't see how people who pray and pray to God for change still aren't completely different - it makes me think there must be some kind of reason for it... like maybe that is their "cross to bear"?

[Hennessey]

........is their "cross to bear"?

Exactly and we will bear what ever cross that God chooses to bring us to naught that He might be all. I believe an overcomer is brought to the place that this world holds no allure for them.

This life we have on earth is described as vaporous. Our real life in Christ is supernal and substantive.

Jack

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9:  :2c: The reason those programs don't work is because they are trying to change man from the outside in and not as God does from the inside out. The root is spiritual, not mental; the mental is set be conformed into the image of the Son thru the washing of the water of the Word.

I don't doubt many make a valient try to change thru them, and when it doesn't seem to work because the SPIRITUAL root of desire has not been dealt with, they wrongly assume that they were made that way, ect.

They may be correct in one sense that they were made that way, in that the spiritual root may be generational and therefore came in at or before birth, so they truly have no memories apart from that leaning. But that still doesn't make it anything but a very deep rooted spiritual problem. The spiritual rules the natural realm, either way. The carnal mind is the FIRST battleground, which is why the first piece of armor is the helmet.

As a man thinketh in his heart........so is he. Hitler said he could get the children into his mindset if he could get ahold of them before they were 6 years of age, and he did. So just imagine what a spirit could do if it had them at birth, planting seeds? Blessings to all......

[Michele]

........is their "cross to bear"?

Exactly and we will bear what ever cross that God chooses to bring us to naught that He might be all. I believe an overcomer is brought to the place that this world holds no allure for them.

This life we have on earth is described as vaporous. Our real life in Christ is supernal and substantive.

Jack

  :goodpost:  Good one Jack! I had to look up supernal and substantive.  (I've heard the words used, but wasn't exactly sure of the meaning) 

I like the meaning......  :cloud9:

[Dean]

Nancy,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and I think they are...the minority opinion. Today, I consider the minority opinion in almost all discussions, to be the most important. I think it took courage to express what you think about homosexuality on this forum and I commend you for doing so...well done.

Dean    

[firstborn888]

See? We're good heretics. Not evil heretics.  :laughing7:

I'm a better heretic than I used to be.  What kind of extra points do I get, if any?

---James

They will use dry wood to burn you instead of green wood to get it over with faster  :laughing7:

[Cardinal]

 :happygrin: :laughing7:

[firstborn888]

Dearly beloved, we are gathered here today in the er.. um.. sight of um.. God

To join together this man and er.. um man? in holy matrimony       ...................................................................

What er.. um.. God er .. um.. has er.. um... joined together lets scrap that shall we?

By the power vested in me by the state of _________ and God I now pronounce you Husband and er.. um.. um...... um....

You may now kiss the... the... the....

Oh shucks I give up!  :mshock:

Yer married

Please send me a dose of whatever was in that injection Bernie. Money is no object!
- b

[firstborn888]

Anyway i'd rather see two men kissing than killing each other.
Godbless
Nancy

This is where differing gender views become SO obvious.

I'd much rather see the fight! 

   - b

[Taffy]

Byron...

would ya like it by the litre...

best grab it from Seeker..hes surely had enough :laughing7: :laughing7:

[firstborn888]

I think we fall into the enemy's snare when we buy into the lie that there is such a thing as homosexuality. God created them male and female. Period.

Okay, here we go again. I'll repost some things from a previous thread.

My views on this will not endear me to some Christians, but hopefully, it will at least make a few rethink the subject. As someone who has studied human nature for many years - I just want to make a few points. These points are about homosexuality in men.

1. First of all, let me say as a straight man, the thought of two males together repulses me greatly. This was the case when I was a lost, very immoral demonically opressed atheist, and is still the case now. I was born straight, and chose to stay that way since the 'sin' of homosexualty was never a 'temptation' to me in the least - not while lost, not while born again. If something is greatly repulsive to you, it is not a temptation to sin in that manner - even if you are unsaved.

2. I have observed that in the church in general, gay men are judged much more harshly BECAUSE of the natural (not Godly - "natural") repulsion that straight men feel toward this. Male leaders are much more forgiving toward transgressions/temptations they can relate to themselves (ie: sexual immorality toward women). This is a non-Godly natural carnal inequity in dealing with sins. It is wrong, and is sin in it's own right.

3. I have known men who, mainly through childhood sexual abuse, aquired demonic strongholds that 'led' them into a homosexual lifestyle. When the unclean spirits are dealt with, I've seen them become free to live 'normal' heterosexual lives. In any case, there must be some inborn pre-disposition toward gay tendencies OR some kind of trauma as this behavior is obviously against nature, and goes against how we 'should be' physically and emotionally equipped as men to perform.

4. I have known other rare instances of men who apparently have female minds trapped inside of male bodies, or 'predominately' male bodies. What in the world do I mean by 'predominately male bodies'? Well, I mean, by medical definition - male, but (for example) with tiny wrists, very small waistlines, exaggerated hips etc. These traits are caused by genetics, not sinful thoughts/activities.

5. Okay, before you stone me - let me make a simple point. Some, people (Christians) say "No, God would never allow that! People choose to be gay, period."     
My answer is - ever heard of birth defects? God 'allows' them. In fact, there are rare instances of people born with BOTH male and female genitals. Who are you going to blame for that? Is such a person just inherently sinful to be confused about their sexual identity? Of course not. No sane person would make that argument. It's a *defect* - a result of the fall of man.

6. It's a fallen world - things go wrong. To say that being gay is ALWAYS just a sinful 'choice' is an insult to reason. Science has proven that some gay men actually have (physically HAVE) female brains. There are differences. Unless you believe that some males are tempted to be homosexual, then, after acting upon the temptation - their brains miraculously transform into female brains, then you have to accept that in *some* cases, people are indeed 'born gay'.

Why am I making this point? Because it's simple, observable fact, ie: truth. Of course, some (most?) Christians will try and refute the facts about this in order to totally blame an individual's homosexual behavior on their sinful free-will choice. It's as small minded as trying to defend God for allowing sin (or suffering, or birth defects, or ET for that matter) to exist in the first place.

So, am I condoning sinful behavior? No. I was born (read: BORN) with many many natural sinful tendencies which I have to deal with throughout life. I also have chosen (read: CHOSEN) to allow certain sinful behaviors to control me AFTER birth. Can someone who is born with sin be changed? Of course. Can someone who later chooses even more sin be set free? Yes. 

Am I causing people who are fighting homosexuality to stumble? I don't think the truth is ever a cause for anyone to stumble. As I pointed out above, we all have to deal with the cards that fate and destiny has dealt to us. 'Tis an unescapable fact. I don't envy the road of a believer who is fighting homosexuality because of birth or trauma or choice, just as I don't envy me for my horrendous lifelong battles, which have come from every conceivable angle. But God is good and gives us the victory as we face the FACTS of it all, not as we hide behind religious dogma.

Okay, last point. To all of us pious heterosexual clean straight people who were 'born' OR who 'chose' to be attracted to the opposite sex, or especially to some of us who were 'born' or 'chose' to be greatly over-attracted (to the point of obsession) to the opposite sex. Put the shoe on the other foot. What if you were told that your natural inborn craving OR your choice for the opposite sex was just wrong, and was an abomination, and that we had to lose that AND aquire a craving for the same sex? Yes, it would take miraculous intervention to do so.

BTW, the reality is that our out of control 'straight' lusts have to be dealt with by the same miraculous power of God. Our selfish, straight carnal nature is just as much of an 'abomination' as any other sin, sins that we were born with and choose and need a miracle (many miracles) to be freed from. Death will ultimately be the greatest freedom of all.

I really hope Godly sense and truth will be served here. Holy cow 

- byron

Comments?

[shibboleth]

Hey firstborn, I agree with everything you said. I used to be a fundie and fought the homosexual lifestyle. But, something inside was unsettled. I always wondered why someone would choose a gay lifestyle when there were so many disadvantages to it. Just the fact you are made fun of, called names, discriminated in jobs, hated by many straight people etc. It  never made sense that someone would choose this type of life with all the cards stacked against them.

In the past year I have changed my thinking about gays as well as all sinful behavior. I don't think anyone is going to change their mind about any sin until God changes our minds about it. I used to be a drunk and I didn't repent of that sin until I was put in a position that caused me to look at it from the courts, lawyers, societys point of view. Now I don't drink alcohol and it's only because of God's grace that I don't.

BTW, there are over 600 laws in the OT. Which ones do we keep and which ones do we ignore? Many say the ceremonial laws are done away with, but the Jews knew no separation between any of the laws. They are all God's laws and to be obeyed....all 600 of them.

[Pierac]

I don't understand the idea that certain sins require special consideration?  This goes to show how successful the media has been in normalizing homosexuality. This is another example of how the Church is conforming to the world. Look at Divorce, in the past it held a much lower % rate in the church compared to the world. Today it is almost directly in line with the world. No one thinks twice about it. The same pattern is slowly happening with homosexuality.  It's already making news how some churches are allowing homosexuals to become members. My point is not directed against homosexuality but at the idea of how the church is conforming to the world! 

Would we get the same response if the topic was  'Does universalism make pedophilia okay?' 

Let's see how this letter reads now...

My views on this will not endear me to some Christians, but hopefully, it will at least make a few rethink the subject. As someone who has studied human nature for many years - I just want to make a few points. These points are about pedophilia in men.

1. First of all, let me say as a straight man, the thought of adults with children repulses me greatly. This was the case when I was a lost, very immoral demonically opressed atheist, and is still the case now. I was born straight, and chose to stay that way since the 'sin' of pedophilia was never a 'temptation' to me in the least - not while lost, not while born again. If something is greatly repulsive to you, it is not a temptation to sin in that manner - even if you are unsaved.

2. I have observed that in the church in general, pedophiles are judged much more harshly BECAUSE of the natural (not Godly - "natural") repulsion that straight men feel toward this. Male leaders are much more forgiving toward transgressions/temptations they can relate to themselves (ie: sexual immorality toward women). This is a non-Godly natural carnal inequity in dealing with sins. It is wrong, and is sin in it's own right.

3. I have known men who, mainly through childhood sexual abuse, aquired demonic strongholds that 'led' them into a pedophilia lifestyle. When the unclean spirits are dealt with, I've seen them become free to live 'normal' adult/adult sex lives. In any case, there must be some inborn pre-disposition toward pedophilia tendencies OR some kind of trauma as this behavior is obviously against nature, and goes against how we 'should be' physically and emotionally equipped as men to perform.

4. Okay, before you stone me - let me make a simple point. Some, people (Christians) say "No, God would never allow that! People choose to be pedophiles, period."     
My answer is - ever heard of birth defects? God 'allows' them. In fact, there are rare instances of people born with BOTH male and female genitals. Who are you going to blame for that? Is such a person just inherently sinful to be confused about their sexual identity? Of course not. No sane person would make that argument. It's a *defect* - a result of the fall of man.

5. It's a fallen world - things go wrong. To say that being a pedophile is ALWAYS just a sinful 'choice' is an insult to reason. Science has proven that some pedophile men actually have (physically HAVE) different brains. There are differences. Unless you believe that some males are tempted to be a pedophile, then, after acting upon the temptation - their brains miraculously transform into adult liking brains, then you have to accept that in *some* cases, people are indeed 'pedophiles'.

Why am I making this point? Because it's simple, observable fact, ie: truth. Of course, some (most?) Christians will try and refute the facts about this in order to totally blame an individual's pedophile behavior on their sinful free-will choice. It's as small minded as trying to defend God for allowing sin (or suffering, or birth defects, or ET for that matter) to exist in the first place.

So, am I condoning sinful behavior? No. I was born (read: BORN) with many many natural sinful tendencies which I have to deal with throughout life. I also have chosen (read: CHOSEN) to allow certain sinful behaviors to control me AFTER birth. Can someone who is born with sin be changed? Of course. Can someone who later chooses even more sin be set free? Yes. 

Am I causing people who are fighting pedophilia to stumble? I don't think the truth is ever a cause for anyone to stumble. As I pointed out above, we all have to deal with the cards that fate and destiny has dealt to us. 'Tis an unescapable fact. I don't envy the road of a believer who is fighting pedophilia because of birth or trauma or choice, just as I don't envy me for my horrendous lifelong battles, which have come from every conceivable angle. But God is good and gives us the victory as we face the FACTS of it all, not as we hide behind religious dogma.

Okay, last point. To all of us pious clean adult loving  people who were 'born' OR who 'chose' to be attracted to the adult sex, or especially to some of us who were 'born' or 'chose' to be greatly over-attracted (to the point of obsession) to adult sex. Put the shoe on the other foot. What if you were told that your natural inborn craving OR your choice for child sex was just wrong, and was an abomination, and that we had to lose that AND aquire a craving for adult sex? Yes, it would take miraculous intervention to do so.

BTW, the reality is that our out of control 'adult' lusts have to be dealt with by the same miraculous power of God. Our selfish, straight carnal nature is just as much of an 'abomination' as any other sin, sins that we were born with and choose and need a miracle (many miracles) to be freed from. Death will ultimately be the greatest freedom of all.

I really hope Godly sense and truth will be served here. Holy cow

Does the letter read different now? 

The Church must not conform to the world, Paul turned the non-repentant (heterosexual) sinner over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that the Spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. Being a homosexual is not the issue, Sin is.

[james.goetz]

Byron, I agree with what you are saying.

Here is an excerpt from my article "Sexual Purity and Scripture".

"We also want to briefly discuss homosexual orientations. Studies of mammals indicate that a small percent of mammals are abnormal in that they have a homosexual orientation. Various criminal and cultural and religious influences may also cause homosexual orientations. And some people have both a homosexual and a heterosexual orientation, which is a bisexual orientation. Whatever orientation we have, we need to abstain from sexual immorality. We have heard reports that some homosexuals who converted to Christianity had eventual lost their homosexual orientation. And other homosexuals who converted to Christianity did not lose their orientation but live happily in a life of sexual abstinence."

And here is the rest of my article.
http://theoperspectives.blogspot.com/2007/09/sexual-purity-and-scripture.html

I think we fall into the enemy's snare when we buy into the lie that there is such a thing as homosexuality. God created them male and female. Period.

Okay, here we go again. I'll repost some things from a previous thread.

My views on this will not endear me to some Christians, but hopefully, it will at least make a few rethink the subject. As someone who has studied human nature for many years - I just want to make a few points. These points are about homosexuality in men.

1. First of all, let me say as a straight man, the thought of two males together repulses me greatly. This was the case when I was a lost, very immoral demonically opressed atheist, and is still the case now. I was born straight, and chose to stay that way since the 'sin' of homosexualty was never a 'temptation' to me in the least - not while lost, not while born again. If something is greatly repulsive to you, it is not a temptation to sin in that manner - even if you are unsaved.

2. I have observed that in the church in general, gay men are judged much more harshly BECAUSE of the natural (not Godly - "natural") repulsion that straight men feel toward this. Male leaders are much more forgiving toward transgressions/temptations they can relate to themselves (ie: sexual immorality toward women). This is a non-Godly natural carnal inequity in dealing with sins. It is wrong, and is sin in it's own right.

3. I have known men who, mainly through childhood sexual abuse, aquired demonic strongholds that 'led' them into a homosexual lifestyle. When the unclean spirits are dealt with, I've seen them become free to live 'normal' heterosexual lives. In any case, there must be some inborn pre-disposition toward gay tendencies OR some kind of trauma as this behavior is obviously against nature, and goes against how we 'should be' physically and emotionally equipped as men to perform.

4. I have known other rare instances of men who apparently have female minds trapped inside of male bodies, or 'predominately' male bodies. What in the world do I mean by 'predominately male bodies'? Well, I mean, by medical definition - male, but (for example) with tiny wrists, very small waistlines, exaggerated hips etc. These traits are caused by genetics, not sinful thoughts/activities.

5. Okay, before you stone me - let me make a simple point. Some, people (Christians) say "No, God would never allow that! People choose to be gay, period."     
My answer is - ever heard of birth defects? God 'allows' them. In fact, there are rare instances of people born with BOTH male and female genitals. Who are you going to blame for that? Is such a person just inherently sinful to be confused about their sexual identity? Of course not. No sane person would make that argument. It's a *defect* - a result of the fall of man.

6. It's a fallen world - things go wrong. To say that being gay is ALWAYS just a sinful 'choice' is an insult to reason. Science has proven that some gay men actually have (physically HAVE) female brains. There are differences. Unless you believe that some males are tempted to be homosexual, then, after acting upon the temptation - their brains miraculously transform into female brains, then you have to accept that in *some* cases, people are indeed 'born gay'.

Why am I making this point? Because it's simple, observable fact, ie: truth. Of course, some (most?) Christians will try and refute the facts about this in order to totally blame an individual's homosexual behavior on their sinful free-will choice. It's as small minded as trying to defend God for allowing sin (or suffering, or birth defects, or ET for that matter) to exist in the first place.

So, am I condoning sinful behavior? No. I was born (read: BORN) with many many natural sinful tendencies which I have to deal with throughout life. I also have chosen (read: CHOSEN) to allow certain sinful behaviors to control me AFTER birth. Can someone who is born with sin be changed? Of course. Can someone who later chooses even more sin be set free? Yes. 

Am I causing people who are fighting homosexuality to stumble? I don't think the truth is ever a cause for anyone to stumble. As I pointed out above, we all have to deal with the cards that fate and destiny has dealt to us. 'Tis an unescapable fact. I don't envy the road of a believer who is fighting homosexuality because of birth or trauma or choice, just as I don't envy me for my horrendous lifelong battles, which have come from every conceivable angle. But God is good and gives us the victory as we face the FACTS of it all, not as we hide behind religious dogma.

Okay, last point. To all of us pious heterosexual clean straight people who were 'born' OR who 'chose' to be attracted to the opposite sex, or especially to some of us who were 'born' or 'chose' to be greatly over-attracted (to the point of obsession) to the opposite sex. Put the shoe on the other foot. What if you were told that your natural inborn craving OR your choice for the opposite sex was just wrong, and was an abomination, and that we had to lose that AND aquire a craving for the same sex? Yes, it would take miraculous intervention to do so.

BTW, the reality is that our out of control 'straight' lusts have to be dealt with by the same miraculous power of God. Our selfish, straight carnal nature is just as much of an 'abomination' as any other sin, sins that we were born with and choose and need a miracle (many miracles) to be freed from. Death will ultimately be the greatest freedom of all.

I really hope Godly sense and truth will be served here. Holy cow 

- byron

Comments?

[firstborn888]

And here is the rest of my article.
http://theoperspectives.blogspot.com/2007/09/sexual-purity-and-scripture.html

Good article James!
- b

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Sorry guys........gotta throw in my :2c:. I hope we can agree to disagree without ruffled feathers, Amen?

I hate to be the one to stick a pin in the balloon, but do you all realize that brains or for that matter any organ can be altered by spirits? Just as God's Spirit can change that which is not, into that which is, according to the PERFECTION found in His Word pattern, so can the opposite and opposing factors corrupt. They are perfectly capable of changing brain chemistry, body chemistry, ect., whether in the womb or in a child or an adult, it matters not. Just as God can HEAL in the womb, or outside the womb, a child or an adult. As long as we continue to be mesmerized  :mshock: by looking at the fruit (natural), our eyes are off the root (spiritual). Eve had the same problem. :grave:  Blessings to all......

[Kratos]

Card,

You are hitting the proverbial nail on its head once again. Some fundamentalists try to make homosexuality the unpardonable sin, but let me show you in scripture what the unpardonable sin is.

1Jn 1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10  If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

An unpardonable sin is any sin that we can no longer say that we have so we cannot confess to Him as sin. Homosexuality is just the next in a long line of sins that men can no longer acknowledge to God as sin. Do you know what makes a homosexual sinner unable to be set free? It is people telling them that they were created that way by God and that they have no sin.

Homosexuality is a spirit that binds men and women in sinful behavior. It is not the strongest spirit and certainly should be no problem for God or His sons to handle. But, only if a man can confess His sin so God can cleanse him of this unrighteousness.

I am sure that we all know that confession is homo-logia which means to say the same as God does in His Word. If we assist the enemy in letting the homosexually bound sinner to not agree with God that their behavior is sin, we assist in keeping them bound by this spiritual enemy.

I call homosexual sin as sin because I love the homosexual sinner too much to tell them otherwise.

John

[firstborn888]

Does the letter read different now?

 Yes, of course, but you may have missed my entire point.

  My point is the hypocrisy of codemning certain behaviors that are 'naturally' repulsive to us over those that are not. I personally don't like being around gay men, but that doesn't make what they are any worse than people who commit heterosexual sins.    
  Remember the woman at the well? Married many times and currently shacked up. By current Christian religious standards, Jesus should have rebuked her for her promiscuity and ordered her to repent or face the consequences and should have immediately expelled from His holy presence if she refused. Instead, He reached out to her and offered her living water.
   Those who judge by the flesh and claim to know better are more guilty than those who are in darkness and only doing what seems right to them. The Pharisees had that exact same problem. "John 9:41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains".
    I'm not at all excluding myself from this same fault.

     blessings,
     Byron

[Dean]

Paul,

Are you comparing 2 same sex adults having consensual sex... to an adult sexualy abusing innocent children?

Dean

[firstborn888]

Paul,

Are you comparing 2 same sex adults having consensual sex... to an adult sexualy abusing innocent children?

Dean

Yes Paul, I must say that taking it from gender confusion to assault was quite a leap. Using all my words and thoughts about one subject and applying them to a heinous crime was not nice, but Bernie assured me that you are a good guy and meant no harm. If you really do believe that any sin we commit is equal to raping children, I hope you are living a very very clean life sir!
   blessings,
     byron   

[Craig]

Does universalism make gay and lesbian marriages okay?

I believe that the answer is "no", but I want to get a general feel for how other universalists see this issue.

Blessings:)

Homosexuality is sin, no matter what those who try to defend it say.

Romans 1:18-32
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Just pay attention to them who defend it. They don't know the difference between judging sin, and judging a person. They do not understand that God's wrath is against the wickedness and ungodliness of mankind, not mankind. The proof? When you point out that homosexuality is a sin, they will become slanderers of you. They don't understand that we are not under the Law, yet sin still is under the Law in order to make sin utterly sinful.

To legitmize homosexuality as okay, they will a) Deny Scripture or b) Say we are not under the Law, so the law against homosexuality no longer applies.

Either way, it is not my opinion, but Scripture that states that they have been given over to a depraved mind and still live in darkness.

There is no mistaking, the excuse of two concentual adults, has no relevance to what God has declared through the apostles. They will go into arguments that pedaphilia is not okay, because it is not between two concentual adults. Yet, ignore that there are other relationships between two concentual adults, which has been condemned as sexual immorality.

A man was sleeping with his own mother. They are two concenting adults, but Paul not only expelled him from the congregation, but he rebuked the concregation for not doing it who boasted on their tolerance of sin!

1 Corinthians 5
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.

I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

The only way someone can excuse sexual immorality, is to ignore Scripture concerning it. It is not my opinion, or interpretation of Scripture, the condemned sexual immorality has been a condemnation also of the sin of concentual adults, whether it is homosexual, or incest, or fornication, or adultary.

Do I condemn a person who is in sin? No. Do I condemn the sin? Yes. Though those who cannot admit it to be sin, think I am condemning them and will most tell me I am in sin for making judgment.   There is no argument that can be made, Homosexuality still remains an abomination in the eyes of God. Though we are not judged in accordance to our sins any more concerning reconciliation, that does not mean sin has ceased to be sin.

Sin still kills those who continue to live to it, so we are commanded to turn a sinner from the error his way in order to save them.

James 5:19-20My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

So if homosexuality is not approved by God, neither would any union of homosexuality be approved just becuse Jesus saves all mankind.

As Kratos says, "I call homosexual sin as sin because I love the homosexual sinner too much to tell them otherwise."

Amen.