death:an ending?

[jabcat]

Mod note;

let's plz work on getting this back to the OP, away from personal issues, and away from banned topics (Trinity).

This thread won't be locked due to the above issues - we need to get back on track so everyone can enjoy and benefit from it.

Thanks, James.

[jabcat]

Opening Post;

The way I understand 1Co 15:26  the last enemy is done away--death;
Until we are drawn to the Father, yes, death is an enemy.

"Death is not the end of this journey, it's the beginning."
Now there is something that will let one sleep with good thoughts.
We need, have to, and must come to that wonderous thought that death is a door that holds no fear....... unless one holds on to deceite, trys to hold back the very thing that keeps joy from ones life.
Joh 12:24  verily, verily, I say to you, if the grain of the wheat, having fallen to the earth, may not die, itself remaineth alone; and if it may die, it doth bear much fruit;
Rev 1:8  `I am the Alpha and the Omega, beginning and end, saith the Lord, who is, and who was, and who is coming--the Almighty.'

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: Some thoughts to consider.....Jesus said, paraphrasing, "Why callest me good, there is none good but the Father."

God is a Spirit, and His Son can be no less than what He is, which was a Holy Spirit clothed in a robe of flesh. Every seed bears fruit after it's own kind, and the Father's kind/seed is SPIRIT.

Jesus, who, as a man, WAS this Spirit, MADE flesh. This is why they said hereafter we'll not know Him after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Why? Because the flesh robe was rent, as it had fulfilled it's purpose in making the invisible God, THE FATHER, visible.

God was IN CHRIST (the Spirit) reconciling all men unto Himself. Which is why the Son WHO IS SPIRIT, said, "When you've seen ME (the Spirit in the robe of flesh), you've seen the Father."

Why? Because the Son who is Spirit, is the express image of His person, and flesh and blood (not even Jesus's) can reveal this to you "Peter", but only My Father, which is in heaven. My  :2c: Blessings....

Another one to consider:
Exodus 33:20 He saith also, `Thou art unable to see My face, for man doth not see Me, and live;'
"When you've seen ME (the Spirit in the robe of flesh), you've seen the Father."  => combined with the verse above that means something like: Looks/acts the same.
If Jesus was really Father then Jesus would have killed thousands instead of teaching/healing them.

If you read that verse in an more spiritual way it won't help either. Because in that case it mean "conversion".
A converted person wouldn't have whiped/crucified/mocked/doubted Father/Son.
http://www.harvestchurch.com/pdf/No%20Man%20Can%20See%20God%20and%20Live.pdf

[WhiteWings]

Even the original Greek says that God was manifested in the flesh; "God incarnate".  And as far as what we mortally have, the original Greek is as accurate a Bible as you can get.

That quoute doesn't do much good to your view imo. Manifest isn't another word for "is".
- The infection manifests itself as a red skin. -> The bacteria/virus can't even been seen. Red skin is just a reaction to it.
- Polluted water manifests itself by dead fish. -> Toxic waste is the pollution not the fish.
- The wrath of God toward Sodom manifested itself as a rain of fire and brimstone. -> God isn't splatered all over the area as little stones.
- Fathers plan/law/wishes were manifested/made known/explained/thaught via His Son Jesus.

That's the definition of manifest in my book.
Below the definition of the word as found in Merriam-Webster, Oxford and Thayer/Strong.

Main Entry:2manifest
Pronunciation:*
Function:verb
Inflected Form:-ed/-ing/-s
Etymology:Middle English manifesten, from Middle French or Latin; Middle French manifester, from Latin manifestare, from manifestus

transitive verb   : to show plainly : make palpably evident or certain by showing or displaying *manifested precisely the same bone structure as the mask of the great author— Osbert Sitwell* *choice manifests itself in society in small increments— Lewis Mumford*
intransitive verb   : to produce a physical disturbance indicating the presence of a ghost or spirit : APPEAR *observe a number of striking phenomena which T were then actively manifesting— Hereward Carrington* *when the atmosphere is heavy, it is hard for the spirits to manifest— M.L.Bach*
synonyms see SHOW

manifest, v.

(ˈmænɪfɛst)

Also 5 ma(g)nyfest.

[ad. F. manifest-er, or L. manifest-āre, f. manifest-us (see prec.). Cf. Sp., Pg. manifestar, It. manifestare.]

1.1 trans. To make evident to the eye or to the understanding; to show plainly, disclose, reveal.

  c 1374 Chaucer Boeth. ii. pr. vii. 44 (Camb. MS.), Thinken ye to manyfesten yowre renoun and don yowre name to ben born forth?    1483 Caxton Cato E viij, The synnes ben ofte hydde for a tyme but afterward‥they are knowen and manyfestyd.    1484 ― Fables of Alfonce xi. (1889) 281 The yonge man manyfested or descouered vnto her alle his courage and herte.    1508 Dunbar Tua Mariit Wemen 73 To manifest my makdome to multitude of pepill.    1582 N. T. (Rhem.) John ii. 11 He manifested [1611 manifested forth] his glorie.    1598 Shakes. Merry W. iv. vi. 15 The mirth whereof so larded with my matter, That neither (singly) can be manifested Without the shew of both.    1602 Marston Antonio's Rev. iv. iii, Who riseth up to manifest her guilt?    1611 Bible 1 John iv. 9 In this was manifested the loue of God towards vs.    1622 R. Hawkins Voy. S. Sea (1847) 176 The sunnes rising manifested unto us our errour.    1654 Bramhall Just Vind. iii. (1661) 31 Whether the Act‥were operative or declarative, creating new right, or manifesting or restoring old right.    1736 Butler Anal. i. iii. Wks. 1874 I. 49 He manifests himself to us under the character of a righteous governor.    1841 Myers Cath. Th. iv. §3. 188 Nature manifests itself to us only through our senses.    1875 Manning Mission H. Ghost viii. 210 He created our souls to manifest the light of His image.

b.1.b Of things: To be evidence of, prove, attest.

  1508 Dunbar Flyting 82 Thy frawart phisnomy Dois manifest thy malice to all men.    1607 Shakes. Cor. ii. ii. 14 For Coriolanus neyther to care whether they loue, or hate him, manifests the true knowledge he ha's in their disposition.    a 1674 Clarendon Surv. Leviath. (1676) 125 The instance he makes of a Princes subduing an other people‥should manifest to him the contrary.    1804 Abernethy Surg. Obs. 37 This remark is manifested by the present, as well as by many other cases in surgery.

c.1.c with obj. a clause or accus. with inf., or †compl.

  1597 Shakes. 2 Hen. IV, iv. v. 105 Thy Life did manifest, thou lou'dst me not.    1643 Sir T. Browne Relig. Med. i. §22 No man will be able to prove it, when, from the process of the Text, I can manifest it may be otherwise.    1659 Pearson Creed (1839) 324 That it was actually so‥the place itself will not manifest.    1667 in Picton L'pool Munic. Rec. (1883) I. 269 Neither‥bowles or boxe had any inscripcion, manifesting them to be the gift of any p'ticular p'son.    c 1680 Beveridge Serm. (1729) I. 476 It is by this chiefly that we manifest ourselves to be christians.    1688 R. Holme Armoury iii. 326/2 The Triangle will presently manifest whether the place be higher or lower than your Eye.    1711 Steele Spect. No. 153 ⁋4 It is thus in the Life of a Man of Sense, a short Life is sufficient to manifest himself a Man of Honour and Virtue.    1756 P. Browne Jamaica 97, I have not yet seen the capsulæ of this plant, and place it here only from the habit, which seems to manifest it of this tribe.

†2.2 To expound, unfold, clear up (a matter).

  1530 Palsgr. 632/2, I manyfest, I make a thyng clere or open.‥ It is nat for all men to manyfest this mater.    1629 S'hertogenbosh 5 They‥manifested their Cause also vnto the Burgers of the Brabandish head Towns.    1669 Gale Crt. Gentiles 1. iii. x. 108 An oration, if it does not manifest the mater, loseth its designe.

3. a.3.a To display (a quality, condition, feeling, etc.) by one's action or behaviour; to give evidence of possessing, reveal the presence of, evince.

  1567 Satir. Poems Reform. xiv. 67 He Abrahamis Faith, but feir, profest; He Dauidis mercy manifest.    1664 Power Exp. Philos. ii. 103 A large Bladder, full blown, will weigh more then itself emptied, and manifest this inequality upon a ticklish pair of scales.    1782 Cowper Friendship 112 They manifest their whole life through The needle's deviations too, Their love is so precarious.    1801 Med. Jrnl. V. 436 No influence, during that time, was manifested by the medicine.    1814 Cary Dante, Par. ix. 18 The eyes Of Beatrice‥manifested forth Approval of my wish.    1825 Lytton Zicci 8 Glyndon had also manifested a graceful faculty for verse.    1847 Grote Greece ii. xl. (1862) III. 434 The Medes‥manifested great personal bravery.    1853 Bright Sp., India 3 June (1876) 2 When the noble Lord made that announcement, considerable dissatisfaction was manifested on both sides of the House.

b.3.b refl. Of a thing: To reveal itself as existing or operative. Similarly in pass.

  1808 Med. Jrnl. XIX. 137 No tendency, in general, to dysentery, manifested itself at this time.    1871 B. Stewart Heat (ed. 2) §303 This heat‥does not as a rule manifest itself by producing any increase of temperature.    1860 Tyndall Glac. i. xx. 142 A strong polar action was manifested at many points of the surrounding rocks.    1876 J. S. Bristowe Th. & Pract. Med. (1878) 151 The first symptoms are said to have manifested themselves on the seventh or eighth day.

4.4 To record or enumerate in a ship's manifest.

  1541 Act 33 Hen. VIII, c. 7 The double value of the saide mettall so declared and manifested.    1860 Merc. Marine Mag. VII. 120 Should a Captain manifest more packages than there are on board the ship,‥he shall pay on each package so manifested.    1902 Daily Chron. 6 June 5/2 Every passenger is 'manifested' at the point of departure and various particulars about him set out.

5.5 intr. To make a 'manifestation' or public expression of opinion.

  1898 Daily News 21 Feb. 5/6 In this astonishing country a gentleman of repute chooses his own time for going to prison, and is aided by the courtesy of the authorities in manifesting against the Court which condemned him.    Ibid. 26 Sept. 4/4 Public opinion in France manifests entirely in the opposite direction.    1899 Ibid. 12 June 7/5 The object of the occupants being to manifest there for Loubet.

6.6 Spiritualism. Of a ghost or spirit (refl. and intr.): To reveal its presence, make an appearance.

  1858 Hawthorne Fr. & It. Note-Bks. (1871) II. 171 Other séances were held in her bed-chamber, at which good and holy spirits manifested themselves.    1898 Daily News 29 Mar. 6/1 A certain 'Dr. Phinuit', who, however, for some time has not manifested at all.    1900 Westm. Gaz. 22 Dec. 2/2 She locks the skeleton up in the cupboard, and immediately the ghost manifests with renewed vigour.

7.7 Hist. In Spanish law, to protect (a person) by a 'manifestation'. (See manifestation 4.)

  1818 Hallam Mid. Ages iv. (1868) 279 'To manifest any one', says the writer so often quoted [viz. Zurita], 'is to wrest him from the hands of the royal officers that he may not suffer any illegal violence.'    Ibid. 280 note [tr. Zurita], In such cases only the Justiciary of Aragon, when recourse is had to him, interposes by manifesting the person arrested.

φανερόω
phaneroō
Thayer Definition:
1) to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown, to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way
1a) make actual and visible, realised
1b) to make known by teaching
1c) to become manifest, be made known
1d) of a person
1d1) expose to view, make manifest, to show one's self, appear
1e) to become known, to be plainly recognised, thoroughly understood
1e1) who and what one is
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G5318
Citing in TDNT: 9:3, 1244

φανερός
phaneros
Thayer Definition:
1) apparent, manifest, evident, known
2) manifest i.e to be plainly recognised or known
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G5316
Citing in TDNT: 9:2, 1244

PS#1 it's very scary for me that I seem to agree with WillieH  :Chinscratch:
PS#2 WillieH it's good you didn't use huge fontsize in your last few messages. For me, that makes them much more readable.

[Quaesitor]

This is, I think, one of the major sins of Christianity.
All this rabble about being right and wrong.
If there is one thing I've learned since I joined the heretics is that there is the TRUTH and everything else. We have to seek the TRUTH not to possess it but that we may be freed by it.
Everyone has the right to believe what they want, in fact, I believe convictions are placed on our hearts by the Holy Spirit. But when you meet someone who believe otherwise (concerning the Word - I'm not talking about islam or boudhism), it may be time to ask God to open your ears and verify in His Word and with Reason - not Traditions - if it may or may not be the Truth we're seeking.
Let us be cautious about this sin. ( I was a chief sinner in this category before God humbled my heart)

(I'm not taking side because I'm still seeking in this debate)

[WhiteWings]

This is, I think, one of the major sins of Christianity.
All this rabble about being right and wrong.
....
(I'm not taking side because I'm still seeking in this debate)

While I had and still have disagreement with some in this topic I still believe they are also seekers.
They seek in the wrong place but they very likely say the same about me :winkgrin:
But is that a sin?
When you remove all the sugar coating and other excuses seeking is nothing more that splitting all information/thoughts into 2 groups.
True/false. Right/Wrong.
Isn't that what this forum is about? Finding the truth and getting rid of what's false?

I think if people keep that in their mind, and I mean not somewhere far back in their mind, discussion about Trinity and free will can be done.
The discussions may get heated at some point. But as long as people stay polite no harm is done imo.
Calling others heretic, blasphemer, fool, ignorant (of the truth), etc is crossing that boundary and often means "out of arguments". And then... things escalate. Threads get locked. Nobody learned anything. And everyone crawls back under his or her veil....
:2c:

[Quaesitor]

This is, I think, one of the major sins of Christianity.
All this rabble about being right and wrong.
....
(I'm not taking side because I'm still seeking in this debate)

While I had and still have disagreement with some in this topic I still believe they are also seekers.
They seek in the wrong place but they very likely say the same about me :winkgrin:
But is that a sin?
When you remove all the sugar coating and other excuses seeking is nothing more that splitting all information/thoughts into 2 groups.
True/false. Right/Wrong.
Isn't that what this forum is about? Finding the truth and getting rid of what's false?

I think if people keep that in their mind, and I mean not somewhere far back in their mind, discussion about Trinity and free will can be done.
The discussions may get heated at some point. But as long as people stay polite no harm is done imo.
Calling others heretic, blasphemer is crossing that boundary and often means "out of arguments". And then... things escalate. Threads get locked. Nobody learned anything. And everyone crawls back under his or her veil....
:2c:

I'm sorry if I sound like the party breaker, the thing is I wish I'd read more objective writings and less arguments.
It's ok to say we can't answer a point or a question, I see some here answering with vain/void answers just to make a point that they have an answer or just ignoring other's question so they don't have to admit that they don't know.
What's so hard about saying: Ok I don't have an answer for this but I'm gonna seek the Lord for one. And then do not go into this commentary or that translation but into God's presence.

I'm not trying to blame anyone, I have a desire for the edification of the body of Christ which we are and a desire for Truth which is not someone's opinion. The TRUTH will set US free and I desperatly desire freedom.


Now I'm still at lost about this one because I've been TAUGHT by TRADITION that Jesus is God and God is a TRINITY.
Now I think there's arguments on each sides standing.

There is ONE God.
Jesus called God His Father, he sais He could do nothing by Himself.

But...

The disciples worshipped Jesus and called Him my Savior and my God. (only after the resurrection)
And God said that we shouldn't worship anyone but Him, even Jesus said that to the adversary in the desert.

So what I see is that Jesus was a man born of a woman but indwelt with the WORD. The man in Him was just the flesh and blood that composed Him but these died on the cross as all men are appointed to die. So once freed from the flesh and blood which can't see the Kingdom of God, He became ONE with God and thus God by perfect representation. If He speaks it's God speaking and if you adore Him, you adore God because in death, Jesus lost what can never be of God and then became God.

That's just my partial understanding, you are all free to show me anything I've missed.

And I disagree with the point TRADITION brings that if Jesus wasn't God then our faith is void, I don't see where it is written that God had to die on our behalf.


Love you all! :HeartThrob:

[micah7:9]

Blue is still Light.

Jesus is still God.

My friend, you say Jesus is God, and I take it then Jesus was "seen" by men, should that be true then what do I do with these verses
(ASV)  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
(YLT)  God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father--he did declare.
1Jn 4:12  God no one hath ever seen; if we may love one another, God in us doth remain, and His love is having been perfected in us;
1Jn 4:12  No man hath beheld God at any time: if we love one another, God abideth in us, and his love is perfected in us:

[WhiteWings]

I'm sorry if I sound like the party breaker,

You don't. I would even ask you to join the party.

the thing is I wish I'd read more objective writings and less arguments.

True. But often there is a grey area between argument and objective.
What some see as solid scriptual reasoning others see as  :blahgreen: And vv.

It's ok to say we can't answer a point or a question,

Yes but not to soon. Quitting after one message becaus it's hard will teach you nothing.

And God said that we shouldn't worship anyone but Him, even Jesus said that to the adversary in the desert.

And their opion is no opinion but law... :2c:

That's just my partial understanding, you are all free to show me anything I've missed.

I just remembered something you may like to add to your conideration. Regarding the rapture (yes I know wrong word... but everyone at least understands my point) Jesus said that even He didn't know when that is. Only Father does....
(Just like a regular Jewish wedding)

And I disagree with the point TRADITION brings that if Jesus wasn't God then our faith is void, I don't see where it is written that God had to die on our behalf.

Saying something is void because <enter a word> is like "you" want to control Fathers way of doing things. Saying He's wrong.
If Father says we should also worship clouds; should a good Christian kneel and start worshipping or start arguing....

[micah7:9]

Mod note;

let's plz work on getting this back to the OP, away from personal issues, and away from banned topics (Trinity).

This thread won't be locked due to the above issues - we need to get back on track so everyone can enjoy and benefit from it.

Thanks, James.

I personally its to far gone, who knows. :bigGrin:

[Molly]

Having had to deal with death of family and friends a lot in my lifetime, I can witness that they are not gone, not 'dead;' they are alive in some other dimension, and often very close to us.  I have been communicated to in dreams, in waking, in symbols, in words,  in just the right thing happening at the right time.  Some of the stories I could tell--and you would understand--these things are not accidents, not coincidence, not random.

When Jesus died on the cross, we are told the graves of many righteous opened.


50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

--Mat 27



This is for our edification that we have now entered into a new era.  I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would quote Solomon on death after Jesus.  Why would anyone think nothing had changed and the Old Testament remained in effect with regards to death?  Nevertheless, I have the witness that love is stronger than death, and that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the God of the living.



31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

33And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

--Mat 22

[Beloved Servant]

Hebrews 12

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

[micah7:9]

Having had to deal with death of family and friends a lot in my lifetime, I can witness that they are not gone, not 'dead;' they are alive in some other dimension, and often very close to us.  I have been communicated to in dreams, in waking, in symbols, in words,  in just the right thing happening at the right time.  Some of the stories I could tell--and you would understand--these things are not accidents, not coincidence, not random.

When Jesus died on the cross, we are told the graves of many righteous opened.


50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

--Mat 27



This is for our edification that we have now entered into a new era.  I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would quote Solomon on death after Jesus.  Why would anyone think nothing had changed and the Old Testament remained in effect with regards to death?  Nevertheless, I have the witness that love is stronger than death, and that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the God of the living.



31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

33And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

--Mat 22

Unbelievable

[Molly]

Unbelievable

In what sense? 

[Lefein]

Saying something is void because <enter a word> is like "you" want to control Fathers way of doing things. Saying He's wrong.

Everything depends on The Father's consistency.  I do not control my Father by holding him to his word, he can break it if he so chooses...But to break his word would render him unfit to be God.

If Father says we should also worship clouds; should a good Christian kneel and start worshipping or start arguing....

Not if it turns the Father into a hypocrite.

[Lefein]

I am not certain about the nature of death - but in the Old Testament; remember Samuel's spirit when Saul used a medium to seek his counsel.

[WhiteWings]

Saying something is void because <enter a word> is like "you" want to control Fathers way of doing things. Saying He's wrong.

Everything depends on The Father's consistency.  I do not control my Father by holding him to his word, he can break it if he so chooses...But to break his word would render him unfit to be God.

If Father says we should also worship clouds; should a good Christian kneel and start worshipping or start arguing....

Not if it turns the Father into a hypocrite.

But I think you don't believe Father breaks His word and/or is a hypocrite?
There are many views of constancy in the Bible. Most goto hell. Most are put out of existance. All are saved. And likely some more 'certainties'.
But obviously only 1 is correct. Is that lack of consistancy of Father or just a limited human brain? I just mentioned the main doctrines but the same is also true for sub-doctrines. For example is our Sabbath day on Saturday or Sunday? New findings sometimes seem to be inconsistant with many other verses.
Father wrong? New finding wrong? Or perhaps "you" misunderstood all those other verses wrong. That one verse is key to a whole new (sub-)doctrine.
Just like that little word Aion has a huge impact on a huge number of verses.

[Lefein]

I'll say it again...because it is true...

Truth in order to be Truth must remain consistent.  If The Father is not consistent - he is not God, and our faith is absolute vanity, for God would be a liar, and sin would be the rule of the Cosmos, or else God is unknown to us and we must go out and find him if we can, and then build up some new faith.

Is God a liar?  No.  That means he is consistent by default.

"Not if it turns God into a hypocrite"

perhaps "you" misunderstood

Out of curiousity, do you realise how loaded this statement of yours is?

Out of answer; perhaps it is not I, who is wrong.

<>-------<>

Like it or not, everything really does depend on The Father's consistency, and especially his honesty.

[WhiteWings]

I am not certain about the nature of death - but in the Old Testament; remember Samuel's spirit when Saul used a medium to seek his counsel.

Search a bit on this forum and you'll find some threads. But no conclusions. But I can mention the main views.

1] God is the God of the living so no one is really dead.
2] The witch of Endor summoned a evil spirit.
3] One time special event. (Was dead. Spoke a verse and was dead again)
4] Can't be because Jesus is the first one that has gone to heaven.
5] Whatever was said in the OT regarding this question is not relavant because Jesus changed everything.
6] We can't contact the dead.
7] What are the resurrections in Revelation about if people never really die.

[thinktank]

:cloud9: I think we're all missing a deeper understanding of it, that has to be revealed by the Spirit yet, to put us on a equal par with the early church, IMO. Mainstream CANNOT have it right, as there is FEW there be that find it, and they are not the few, and I can't think of one thing they teach, as is, that is accurate. My  :2c: Blessings....

:mshock: How about Jesus is saviour don't you agree with that, what were you thinking!

[thinktank]

Amen to every word in the post above mine :ilu:

I would'nt say amen to every word she said. For the majority churches say Jesus is saviour, being critical I'd have to say that technically you are saying amen to someone who denies Jesus as saviour.  :2c:

[Molly]

7] What are the ressurection in Revelation about if people never really die.

Paul tells us not all will sleep.  So some sleep and some do not.

[WhiteWings]

perhaps "you" misunderstood

Out of curiousity, do you realise how loaded this statement of yours is?

No.
I didn't accidently use ""
"you" is every single Bible reader. Including me.
I'm aware my writing and grammar isn't that good. English is not my first language. I just thought "" removes the literal meaning of the word...
Unless it's a quote.  :Sparkletooth:

Like it or not, everything really does depend on The Father's consistency, and especially his honesty.

The question is are we, mankind, smart enough to detect that inconsistancy?
Some people on this forum have spend thousands of hours in the Bible. And still say things like "Wow, never seen that before!"
So my point is can we judge constance if we don't fully understand the Bible?

[jabcat]

This is, I think, one of the major sins of Christianity.
All this rabble about being right and wrong.
....
(I'm not taking side because I'm still seeking in this debate)

While I had and still have disagreement with some in this topic I still believe they are also seekers.
They seek in the wrong place but they very likely say the same about me :winkgrin:
But is that a sin?
When you remove all the sugar coating and other excuses seeking is nothing more that splitting all information/thoughts into 2 groups.
True/false. Right/Wrong.
Isn't that what this forum is about? Finding the truth and getting rid of what's false?

I think if people keep that in their mind, and I mean not somewhere far back in their mind, discussion about Trinity and free will can be done.The discussions may get heated at some point. But as long as people stay polite no harm is done imo.
Calling others heretic, blasphemer, fool, ignorant (of the truth), etc is crossing that boundary and often means "out of arguments". And then... things escalate. Threads get locked. Nobody learned anything. And everyone crawls back under his or her veil....
:2c:

I agree, it would be nice.  But we've seen that's not what happens.  Thus the statement, "we're not even going to approach that level of dischord".  Gary himself has suggested things be moderated tightly, because he wants the focus to remain and always be UR - not a bunch of people arguing over doctrines that will never be settled until the next age.  

Once again I'll say.  THESE TOPICS CAN BE DISCUSSED TO A DEGREE, when we talk about the scriptures, how we personally understand God, etc.  But it's shown time and again, we get locked into battles over terminology and semantics.  So the old saying goes, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.  IOW, we just avoid going there, other than letting folks stick their toe in now and then - there's just a real quick limit to it.  If folks could only get their minds around the fact that almost anything can be discussed.  It's the words we use, how we go about it, whether we just express our understanding vs. getting locked into argumentative debate over terminology and semantics.  It's just not what the TM board is about.  It's to help us work through some things, yes, but mainly, the focus is to be a clearinghouse of information and assistance, and a witness to the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ - UR.  Believe me when I say, MANY, MANY things are allowed to be discussed, and indepth, that I personally believe Gary would rather have more UR-directed, but he allows.  So I think we probably should be glad we're able to do that.   :2c:

[Lefein]

I didn't accidently use ""

My apologies.  I did not realise that English wasn't your first language, you are fluent enough to trick me. :p

I'd also like to point out in return, that I am not nearly as "educated/arrogant/haughty" as my posts may portray.  I am just trained to write in a certain way that is very "Vulcan" (star trek fans will get it xD).

The question is are we, mankind, smart enough to detect that inconsistancy?

We are.  We are not primitive savages.  The child knew the emperor was naked. -Emperor's New Clothes.

We may not be omniscient in our sense of understanding, but we can tell when something isn't right.  God did not make us helpless, even in the innocence of the Garden, Eve knew there was inconsistency in the Serpent's words.

Some people on this forum have spend thousands of hours in the Bible. And still say things like "Wow, never seen that before!"

That is because the The Word - The Spirit of Truth is living word.  In essence; The Bible is a living book.  There is always some new thing that The Holy Spirit brings out to our attention.

Quantity of Bible study is useless as a measure for how "Bible smart" someone is.  A six year old who can barely read, filled with the Holy Ghost can pick up a Bible for the first time and see a profound, church changing truth - where as someone who has studied the Bible for twenty years cannot...and even refutes it for various reasons.

God reveals things to babes, rather than the wise often times.

It is The Holy Ghost that is our teacher, who often will teach us through our intellect, but it is not our intellect, our years of study, or even our walk with God that is our teacher.  It is the Teacher himself.

So my point is can we judge constance if we don't fully understand the Bible?

It is the same way, in which we have an instinctive knowing that there is inconsistency between The God of Love, and Eternal Torment.  The Holy Spirit is our teacher, who understands the Bible fully having written it - it is he who reveals to us the nature of things about The Father; things such as his consistency.

We judge constance by three things:

1: Instinctive intelligence that God built into us;

We know that if a wife is sneaking out, and coming home sweaty, worn out, and is always talking about how sweet her co-worker is to her, yet she says she is faithful to her husband, yet has no time for him - but has all the time in the world for her co-worker...something is up.  It doesn't exactly take a Holy Ghost prophecy, three confirmations, a prayer vigil, and a choir of cherubim with a message from God to know it either.  :happy3:

2: The Holy Ghost working through our intelligence, and our capacity to learn, think, comprehend, and process.  A good example here, would be Paul's words in Acts 17:28, when he talks of the poets knowing about the relationship between God and Man.  The Holy Ghost was using Paul's scholarly knowledge of Greek culture to present the Gospel to the philosophers, and the Athenians.  The Holy Ghost works the same way with all aspects of our intelligence.

Just as the Church is a body with many members, every individual is a body with many members, who has a mind with many members - through which God works to further his will.

An example of this in my own life would be when God confirmed to me the Truth of the doctrine "Once saved, always saved" by using a medium that many in Orthodox belief would find shocking - Evolution.  (this of course, is prior to my exposure to Ultimate Reconciliation)

3: Witness to our hearts - Inner witness of The Holy Ghost;

Sometimes, you just have that really, really deep knowing about something.