death:an ending?

[peacemaker]

Hard to put this one into words, hope it struck a chord in someone.  

(http://dl9.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1218/1218669ydecv16h9f.gif)
    Love Struck
    peacemaker

[Molly]

More grist for the mill...



4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21And having an high priest over the house of God;

22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.


--Heb 10

[micah7:9]

All I can gather is that getting sick has to do with sin and sin has to do with getting sick.....I think that is BS

[Beloved Servant]

For you micah7:9,

www.youtube.com/watch?v=riu-9y3SkjY&feature=related

[Cardinal]

Hard to put this one into words, hope it struck a chord in someone.  

(http://dl9.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1218/1218669ydecv16h9f.gif)
    Love Struck
    peacemaker

:cloud9: :goodone:  :laughing7:  :thumbsup:

[Cardinal]

All I can gather is that getting sick has to do with sin and sin has to do with getting sick.....I think that is BS

:cloud9: This is what I've seen to be true. At the very least, some sickness is caused by sin. Some is from generational curses where the sick person did not themselves commit the sin, but the fruit of it was passed down.

The elementary principle of the laying on of hands (prayer for the sick), comes from the mandates pertaining to the sin offering . The tabernacle was their "doctor's office". The people confessed their sin, brought their sacrifice, laid hands on it, and the sin was remitted and they were healed.

Same principle as the Israelites who had to look to the brazen serpent on the pole to receive healing, after serpents bit them for their sin. Check this out....

John 5:4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had . 5 And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years. 6 When Jesus saw him lie , and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole? 7 The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled , to put me into the pool: but while I am coming , another steppeth down before me. 8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise , take up thy bed, and walk . 9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked : and on the same day was the sabbath. 10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured , It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed. 11 He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk . 12 Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk ? 13 And he that was healed wist not who it was : for Jesus had conveyed himself away , a multitude being in that place. 14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.


:cloud9: @ Willie......look at what I never noticed before in verse 5!!!

John 5:5  And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years.  :mshock:

[jabcat]

Please brothers respect where each of us are by the grace of God in our understanding of the Word and of God.

It is not our place nor do we have the capacity to change each others views, it is by God's Spirit only.

Peace

Q, your thoughts are noted - the thread is being monitored, and very well may have a fatal disease with a prognosis of a very short continued life span.    :crywipe:

Thanks fam.   :HeartThrob:   http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8688.msg105164#msg105164

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen "Q"....I was going to thank you too, but had to run last night unexpectedly. A good word in season.  :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

Absolute, probabilities, possibilities and unknowables

I will say this from time to time.

I would rather acknowledge the possibility that your position may be absolutely true (while nevertheless holding the probability that what I am seeing is true) than to act as tho I am sure that my position is an absolute- when I cannot provide scriptures that demonstrate it is so.

And when discussing things that we cannot be absolutely sure about via the testimony of scripture, I would rather see brothers and sisters maintain the speculative air of possibilities than to see them bang each other over the head with absolutes they may not have the scriptural authority to wield.

Nor would I want to damage the faith of one who is walking in the elementary principles (no one can move on to maturity without them, and not all of us who think we have them complete,do...1 Cor 2,3; He 5 & 6) by insisting that what they see is "wrong" or "carnal" rather than to simply suggest that perhaps there is something else/more there if we dig a little deeper together.

Let the child grow at a natural pace. Forcefeeding is harmful to the family(2 Tim 2:23-26) and a testimony that we are not as "deep" as we think we are.

The scriptures testify of themselves that somethings are not knowable, somethings are only partly known, and somethings are known- but far inferior in God's priority list to our unity and love for one another(Above all put on love Col 3:14 1 Pet 4:8).

Assertions of logic based on your paradigm may not seem enforceable to me...... and vice versa. Who can I to say their perspective is unlimited? Who has known the mind of the Lord?

These are just the observations of an old man who has spent way to many years rolling around wrestling in the dust- and still finds himself doing so once in awhile. Peace, John

Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness,
through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. (2Pe 1:2-8)

[Quaesitor]

Please brothers respect where each of us are by the grace of God in our understanding of the Word and of God.

It is not our place nor do we have the capacity to change each others views, it is by God's Spirit only.

Peace

Q, your thoughts are noted - the thread is being monitored, and very well may have a fatal disease with a prognosis of a very short continued life span.    :crywipe:

Thanks fam.   :HeartThrob:   http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8688.msg105164#msg105164

I'm happy things turned around.
Wen reading this I thought about the place of "ancient" in church as being the moderator of it.
Because in the body, everyone is free to share what the Spirit is giving them but that will most likely causes frictions. Now we are on a message board but if we were together to share in flesh, it would take someone or more to stay focused on keeping people aware of the liberty we ALL have in Christ.
Thank you mods for ministering for peace.
This board always give me hope that the BODY CAN be united when its HEAD is right where it sould be!
But back on topic, I find this discussion to be getting somewhere, love the 38 symbolism.

[Molly]

Expanded Internet Edition - June 27, 1999

Was Jesus Ever Sick?

by Ernest L. Martin, Ph.D., 1999



The title of this Doctrinal Report is plain enough and it is vitally important that we understand the answer. So essential is the proper answer to this question. It was one of the first queries in my initial theological quest that I began to ask myself. I also asked ministers of the Gospel for their answers. All of us should want to know (and we need to know) if Jesus was ever ill? Was he ever violently sick or perhaps mildly infirm for even a day in his life? The principal reason we ask such a question is because Jesus is defined in the New Testament as the very Son of God, the firstborn member of the Godhead (Colossians 1:15-22). So, can God get sick? Can a person without personal sin (such as Jesus) ever bear the consequences of sin that result in sicknesses and infirmities? Recall what the apostle Peter taught under divine inspiration. He wrote: "Who [Jesus] did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who [Jesus], when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: Who his own self [Jesus] bare our sins in his own body on the tree [a real live tree, not some dead planks of cut timber], that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes [by the cuts and the wounds of Jesus] ye were healed" (I Peter 2:22-24).

There is also something else to consider. Not only should we ask "Was Jesus Ever Sick?" but we should also ask "Can True Christians Get Sick Because of Their Sins?" Why should we inquire of such a question? Because Peter said that because Christ bore our sins on the tree of crucifixion, that "ye were healed." It seems to say in this inspired word that if Christ suffered for us on the tree (and also dying for each of us) and that Jesus actually paid for the sins that made us sick, then none of us should ever get sick because of our sins. Yes, that is correct. That is the proper interpretation. Note that Peter said without equivocation to all Christians: "ye are healed"? True, that is what Peter dogmatically states. The simple truth is, biblical teaching shows the practicing of sin can bring on sicknesses, and the greater the sins the worse the sicknesses to which humans can be subject. Note what Christ taught after he miraculously healed a man of his malady: "Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more lest a worse thing come unto thee" (John 5:14). Yes, but this event happened BEFORE Christ bore our sins for us and died for us on the tree. The fact is, NOW that Christ Jesus has borne our sins and died for us, NONE OF US ever get sick any longer because of our sins (no matter how minor or major they are). Read my new book titled: "The Essentials of New Testament Doctrine" where I place all of the teaching of the Scriptures together in a format that can easily be understood. That book points out the biblical teaching that all Christians are now considered sinless in God's eyes (I John 3:9). God no longer chastises us because of sins that we may commit (and recall, we are sinners – see I John 1:8). He does not use that kind of punishment upon us who are "in Christ." All of us are now healed from such sins (I Peter 2:24).

If this is the case, why do we yet get sick or have infirmities? I just recently had what some people call a "pinched nerve" that gave me severe pains down my right leg into my foot and toes. I could literally not walk except in agonizing pain. I was bedridden for two and a half months. I am now up and around by finding out the problem to my pain and by doing exercises to relieve it. True, God may have been chastising me for some reason (though I have no idea what it could have been), but I know one thing for certain, God was NOT punishing me for some sin or sins that I have been committing. God no longer brings on sickness and afflictions on His people because of their sins. After all, our sins have been taken away by the bearing of Christ of our sins (and those of the world) and because of this "ye are healed" of all sicknesses that were formerly given by God as a result of sins. But why did I become ill if it were NOT for some sin (or sins) that I have supposedly committed? The answer is simple if one will pay close attention to the Holy Scriptures. Note what the apostle Paul said in Romans 8:19-39.

"For the earnest expectation of the creature [that is, the creation, the physical Universe] waiteth for the manifestation of the Sons of God [for the time of our resurrections]. For the creature [again, the creation, the physical Universe] was made subject to vanity [Greek: debilitation, weakness and decay], not willingly [creation did NOT willingly desire to be in a decaying state], but by reason of Him who hath subjected the same [to weakness and decay] in hope, that the creation itself also shall be delivered from that bondage of corruption [of debilitation and decay] into the liberty of the glory of the Children of God [at our resurrections from the dead]. For we know that the whole creation [all the physical Universe] groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they [the physical Universe], BUT OURSELVES ALSO, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, EVEN WE GROAN WITHIN OURSELVES, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.... Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities [our sicknesses and weaknesses in the flesh]: for we know not what we should pray for: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us [that Spirit who intercedes in Romans 8:34 is identified as Christ] with groanings which cannot be uttered.... And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his [God's] purpose."

Listen, that sciatic nerve pain that I experienced for two and a half months was not God chastising me for a sin or sins that I have done, are doing, or will do. Since Christ bore our sins in His body during His life (John 1:29) and on the tree of crucifixion, the Father no longer reckons us as sinners and we are accounted to be completely righteous as is Christ because we are now reckoned to be "in Him" (II Corinthians 5:21). We have no sins on us or in us (that is, reckoned to us by God) so we do not get sick because of sins (any type of sin that we might commit). But why do we who are "the Firstfruits of the Spirit [Christ]" still get sick – and quite often and sometimes severely? It is simply because we are still fleshly in body. We have not yet inherited our spiritual body that we will obtain in the redemption [the resurrection]. We are no different than all other physical things in the Universe that God has made subject to debilitation, weakness and decay. Indeed, look at the animals. Cattle and horses cannot sin, but they get sick just like we humans do. Dogs and cats cannot sin in any way, but they also get sick. Look at the Flora World (all plants). They also can become plagued and even die, and they do not sin in the least. And so it is with us. God no longer allows us to get sick because of our various sins (of course, if you call eating a green apple and the consequent stomach ache a sin, then your designation of "sin" can cause discomfort).

The simple truth is, all sicknesses and infirmities that people now experience (even we who are the Firstfruits of the Spirit) are because we are a part of the physical Universe that has not yet been redeemed from its debilitation and decay. Now, you can overeat, undereat, not eat the right things, overwork, underwork, and get banged up in a football game and you (or I) can suffer for such actions. But God does not reckon that these are sins that bring on your sicknesses. Indeed, as far as those sins are concerned (as Peter said) "ye are healed" (I Peter 2:21-24). All our sicknesses now are a result of our weak body frames (being made of tenuous flesh) and they are subject to decay and ruin (and finally death, see Hebrews 9:27). True, God can show mercy and heal us of our afflictions, or He can let us continue to be ill, but we can rest assured that none of our infirmities is brought on us by God because of our sins or our evil ways. God has eliminated our sins in Christ. Read my book on the "Essentials."

As for Jesus and sickness, the question should be rephrased: "Was Jesus Ever Well?" Though Jesus was never a sinner, He was bearing our sins during His entire life on earth. This made Him continually sickly (read Isaiah 53:1-12). People were always saying to Him: "Physician, heal yourself" (Luke 4:23). For a full account of the sicknesses that plagued Jesus during His lifetime, read chapter 23 of my book "Secrets of Golgotha." Recall, Jesus was sickly not because of His sins, but because He was bearing our sins (and the world's). So, sins are no longer a factor in Christian illnesses. "Ye are healed."

Ernest L. Martin



http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d990701.htm

[Beloved Servant]

I Earnestly Disagree

[Molly]

Appendix: Was Jesus Ever Sick?

  We ended the above article with the Divine principle that says "God's power is being perfected or matured in infirmity or weakness" (2 Corinthians 12:9-10). If this is the case (and it is), then this principle must have been manifested to its greatest extent in Jesus' life on earth. Of course, many would say this is evident in the things He endured during the final hours of His life, but is there a greater, more deeper fulfillment of this principle in Jesus' life? I believe there is.

  It is often true to say that a medical doctor, or a nurse, tends to be less caring and sympathetic to a patient if they themselves have hardly ever been sick in their life, and therefore they don't know what it is like to be a sick patient. I think that you will find that the best doctors and carers are those who have experienced pain and sickness for themselves. This is true of most experiences in life - we don't really know something until we've experienced it. This has to apply to Jesus as well.

 The common, traditional belief, widely held today, particularly in the 'prosperity movement,' is that Jesus was never, ever sick in any way whatsoever - not even a cold! I tended to believe this also for many years. But on a closer examination of a few key scriptures, I found this belief to be false. This has given me real comfort, especially as I have often been plagued by various infirmities (and at the time of writing, I have been suffering with M.E./C.F.S. for many years). No wonder Paul could glory in his infirmities because he was following the pattern of Christ! Jesus truly knows our pains and sicknesses, and He can therefore sympathise with us, because He took them upon Himself and experienced them! His servants also are to experience these things to some extent, for though He has taken the curse of the Law away in His death on the cross, we nevertheless have not received the full adoption and inheritance as yet - that is, the glorification of our bodies. In the meantime, believers in Christ have a deposit of the Spirit as we walk by faith. This treasure is still hidden in jars of earthen clay. Yet the glory is coming at the coming of Christ, when our bodies shall be transformed at the First Resurrection.

The Suffering Servant

  The following texts from the letter to the Hebrews reveals that Christ is indeed the Physician who has experienced pain, infirmity and sickness, so He can truly sympathise with us. (It is possible, as some have suggested, that when Jesus said that His fellow Nazarenes should say to Him, "Physician, Heal yourself!" this is indicating that Jesus was known to be physically weak and sick and needed healing Himself (Luke 4:23). Others would say that He was referring to those in Nazareth, and not Himself).

 "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses ('infirmities' CV), but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin. Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need."

(Hebrews 4:15-16 NIV)

 "During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him..."

(Hebrews 5:7-9 NIV)

  Here we are clearly told that Jesus was tested or tried in every way as we are through the infirmities of the flesh - yet He was without sin. In His heart and mind, in His spirit, He was without sin. He never, ever disobeyed His God and Father, and He fulfilled the Divine Law in every sense. He was perfectly righteous in everything He did and said. But in His fleshly body, He nevertheless suffered the same things that we do as humans. We'll see why He suffered from sickness shortly. Yet we are also told in the second text above that during the days of Jesus' life as a human (the Greek literally reads 'in the days of His flesh') He learned obedience from what He suffered. The writer of Hebrews is not referring to the final hours of Jesus life and ministry alone, when Christ's obedience was made perfect or complete when He died on the cross for our salvation, but he is referring to Jesus' whole life on earth, the days of His flesh during which He suffered. Even from the beginning of His life on earth, Jesus took up the wreath of thorns that is the curse upon this Old Creation.

  The apostle Matthew confirms this fact by quoting from one of the greatest texts of all that describes the character and ministry of the Messiah as the suffering servant of God - Isaiah 53.

  "When Jesus came into Peter's house, he saw Peter's mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever. He touched her hand and the fever left her, and she got up and began to wait on him. When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: "He took up our infirmities and carried our diseases." "

(Matthew 8:14-17 NIV)

 Matthew is not just telling us that the prophet Isaiah's words were fulfilled because Jesus healed all the sick by the power of the Lord and got rid of all the diseases, he's telling us something deeper. The above quote of Isaiah literally reads in the Greek "He got our infirmities, and He bears the diseases." That is to say, in some measure or other, Jesus got the illnesses and took upon Himself the diseases. This was fulfilled throughout His ministry and not just at the end when He greatly suffered and died. Without sounding mystical, it would appear as though Jesus absorbed in His flesh something of the diseases or illnesses of others so that He could experience them. I know from experience that to work or minister under an infirmity takes greater strength and endurance and pushes our spiritual stamina further than if we were a specimen of health and vitality. Infirmity also keeps us humble.

This theme of transference of sickness through love and sacrifice is often portrayed in many movies, TV shows and books. It usually involves a hero-type figure being willing to lay aside his or her well-being or even their own life to save another from dying. This is love - and it is this kind of love that Jesus has, and which He showed in His earthly life.

Isaiah 53

  The following portion of Isaiah 53 clearly reveals the nature and experience of the Messiah as the One who suffers on behalf of others, particularly for the sake of His people. The words in italics are a more literal Hebrew rendering.

       He was despised and rejected by men,
      a man of sorrows (pains), and familiar with suffering (knowing illness).
      Like one from whom men hide their faces
      he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Surely he took up our infirmities (illnesses)
      and carried our sorrows (burdened with our pains),
      yet we considered him stricken by God,
      smitten by him, and afflicted.

(Isaiah 53:3-4 NIV)

 These verses prophesied that the Messiah would be a man of pains, and that He would be knowing illness during His days on earth; He would be burdened with the pains of humanity and He would bear our illnesses; and He would be despised and rejected as though He were judged and afflicted by God Himself. This doesn't sound like the modern Jesus of Christendom who is said to have never caught a cold or had a headache; and it doesn't tie up with the modern version of the 'health and wealth gospel' proclaimed by many today as well as the lives of those who preach it, where emphasis is arrogantly placed on fitness, strength, fleshly ease, worldly wealth, etc. This is not to say that health and well-being should not be important to believers - of course it should, for we are temples of God's Holy Spirit, but this applies more to our character and walk rather than the flesh itself. Jesus said "A man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions" (Luke 12:15) - and this includes our health as well. Paul also said that physical exercise is beneficial for some things, but the most important thing is not our physical health as such but our way of life - our godliness or devoutness. The righteous holy life has promises for this life as well as the one to come (1 Timothy 4:7-8).

 This religious picture of Jesus as a kind of Greek super-hero is one of the reasons why many Jewish Rabbi's and scholars have disregarded Him as being the Messiah prophesied by Isaiah. Ernest L. Martin, in his book Secrets of Golgotha (Pages 335-341), gives a list of quotes from well known Jewish Rabbi's dating back to before the time of Christ showing that the above depiction of the Messiah being familiar with illness was the common Jewish understanding of Isaiah 53. Here is a quote from page 339:

 Rabbi Jacob Ben Reuben (The Rabbanite, 12th Century) is even more specific. He wrote: "The prophet declares that he was 'despised and forlorn of men,' a 'man of pains and known to sickness.' It seems to me [said Jacob Ben Reuben] that no one would be called 'known to sickness' or a 'man of pains' except a man who suffered from severe sickness continually.

 Another says (page 341):

 "...now there are two species of sickness, one when a man is in pain but is still able to move about, the other when he is attacked by some such disease as consumption of fever, when he is prostrated upon his bed but free from pain; in the latter case he is said to be 'broken by sickness.' The prophet Isaiah says that both descriptions unite against the man spoken of."

 Martin also says that Smith's Dictionary of Christian Antiquities, among other references, gives historical evidence to show that the early church fathers of the 2nd and 3rd centuries (before the era of Constantine in the 4th century) believed that Jesus was quite frail in His appearance and even quite repulsive to look at. Apart from His teaching and His miracles there wouldn't have been anything about His appearance that would've attracted people to Him. It's only from the 4th century onwards that we get the picture of Jesus as a handsome, strong, fair man, not unlike depictions of the Greek gods.

 The New Testament reveals that the real Jesus of Nazareth was one and the same as Yahweh of the Hebrew Scriptures, the very Image and Form of God. Yet He was given a body of flesh that was especially prepared for Him so that He could descend to this earth as a human being, laying aside all of His heavenly glory and majesty and power, and take the form of a Servant. Through a life of love, compassion and mercy, and the ultimate humiliating sacrifice of the cross, He took the punishment and chastening, the sicknesses and the pains that rightly belong to us and bore them Himself. And it is this 'weakness' that is the power and wisdom of God. How can anyone reject such a wonderful Redeemer and Messiah - as Jesus Christ is.

 Yet it is interesting to note that in the gospel accounts, after His resurrection, when Jesus appeared to His disciples, none of them recognised Him at first - until their eyes were opened or they saw His five remaining wounds in His hands, feet and side. This would suggest that the resurrected, glorified Jesus looks a little different in appearance now than when He walked this earth as the Suffering Servant. He is the King of kings and Lord of lords, who will return as the victorious King, the Son of David, in power and glory - the Lion who is also the wounded Lamb.



http://www.purposeoflife.org.uk/infirmity.htm

[Molly]

I never could figure out why they couldn't recognize him after his resurrection.  Mary thinks he's the gardener [surely that would be a physically strong and healthy looking man] and doesn't recognize him until he talks to her.

On the road to Emmaus, the disciples walk and talk with him and never recognize him, although their hearts are burning within them.

I've always known he suffered during his life [Isa 53], but never understood why or how.  He's always going off by himself to pray and rest, he falls asleep in an open boat in the middle of a storm, total peace or exhaustion?  The women are always fussing over him like mother hens, feeding him, washing his feet.  Was it because they alone could empathize with his pain?  Because they understood what it meant to be to be deplete of physical strength?

During the three years of his ministry he is like a workhorse, walking everywhere, preaching, healing, taking on the Pharisees.  Does this come from superhuman strength or the weakness that is made perfect in God?


2 Corinthians 12:10
Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

2 Corinthians 12:9
But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

[Beloved Servant]

Because they hadn't eaten at His table.

"He appeared to be going further, but they constrained him, saying, "Stay with us, for it is toward evening and the day is now far spent." So he went in to stay with them. When he was at table with them, he took the bread and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them. And their eyes were opened and they recognized him; and he vanished out of their sight."

[jabcat]

Absolute, probabilities, possibilities and unknowables

I will say this from time to time.

I would rather acknowledge the possibility that your position may be absolutely true (while nevertheless holding the probability that what I am seeing is true) than to act as tho I am sure that my position is an absolute- when I cannot provide scriptures that demonstrate it is so.

And when discussing things that we cannot be absolutely sure about via the testimony of scripture, I would rather see brothers and sisters maintain the speculative air of possibilities than to see them bang each other over the head with absolutes they may not have the scriptural authority to wield.

Nor would I want to damage the faith of one who is walking in the elementary principles (no one can move on to maturity without them, and not all of us who think we have them complete,do...1 Cor 2,3; He 5 & 6) by insisting that what they see is "wrong" or "carnal" rather than to simply suggest that perhaps there is something else/more there if we dig a little deeper together.

Let the child grow at a natural pace. Forcefeeding is harmful to the family(2 Tim 2:23-26) and a testimony that we are not as "deep" as we think we are.

The scriptures testify of themselves that somethings are not knowable, somethings are only partly known, and somethings are known- but far inferior in God's priority list to our unity and love for one another(Above all put on love Col 3:14 1 Pet 4:8).

Assertions of logic based on your paradigm may not seem enforceable to me...... and vice versa. Who can I to say their perspective is unlimited? Who has known the mind of the Lord?

These are just the observations of an old man who has spent way to many years rolling around wrestling in the dust- and still finds himself doing so once in awhile. Peace, John

Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness,
through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. (2Pe 1:2-8)

:first:

[micah7:9]

For you micah7:9,

www.youtube.com/watch?v=riu-9y3SkjY&feature=related

Thank you..it would seem that the person who wrote those words has been listening in on my daily and evening prayers, almost word for word. Thank you again and I pray that all goes well for you and yours.

[thinktank]

Indeed Beloved Servant - At any rate, he certainly should have caught leprosy if he was so disease-able...The whole reason lepers where ostracised was because it was so contagious.

Yet another reason I believe it was highly, highly unlikely that he ever got sick, or was "capable" (if such a word could be used properly) of getting sick / being corrupted bodily.

Myth: leprosy is not contagious.

I think there are two forms of it, contagious and non contagious, in history the lepors were outcasts because they had to avoid all people to stop spreading the disease. I remember in the film papayon that steve mcqueen thought he got infected, but the lepor explained how he had a version of it that was not contagious.

[WhiteWings]

I think there are two forms of it,
, in history the lepors were outcasts because they had to avoid all people to stop spreading the disease. I remember in the film papayon that steve mcqueen thought he got infected, but the lepor explained how he had a version of it that was not contagious.

That's correct. There is wet and dry leprosy.

Also known as Hansen's disease; it is a chronic bacterial infection that damages the nerves (especially in the limbs and facial area) and can cause severe skin damage. If left untreated, very serious complications occur including blindness and disfigurement. Leprosy is spread through droplets of nasal mucus only in the first stages of the disease. Leprosy is not highly contagious as most people believe.
http://www.mckechnies.net/family/_references/medical.htm

Leprosy is very weakly transmissible (by sneezes), and in almost all cases there has been extensive contact with a victim of lepromatous leprosy during childhood. However, its victims (and imagined victims) have inspired fear and loathing, and do so to this day (i.e., children's sick jokes). Drug treatment is effective but takes several years to work, and there are political and economic obstacles to its widespread use. * Minocycline (!) for leprosy: Br. Med. J. 304: 91, 1992.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Tank!  :cloud9:

Long time, no refute!  :laughing7:

PART #1

:hithere:  Hello Willie it's your friendly neighbourhood nemesis  :laughing7:

It seems you got yourself in a sticky situation by denying the divinity of Jesus, I can't believe you said that  :mshock: But then again  :laughing7:

But your entitled to your opinion which is UNFOUNDED in the WORD, which you seemingly know a great deal about, but not enough it seems. I hope my word will be a blessing to you and to others as the holy spirit guides them.

As are YOU entitled to your "opinion" Tank...  I hope the very same for ALL, in this answer to you.  :winkgrin:

FIRST --- I have hardly placed myself in a "sticky situation"...  :laughing7:  I have spent many years in the study of the state of YHVH and His WORD bears out via His TESTIMONY and His Sons TESTIMONY, and the TESTIMONY of the Apostles... that HE ALONE is GOD...

SECOND --- No one ever responded to the OT Scriptures I have noted that YHVH claims not only to be the ONLY GOD that EXISTS, but notes the DETAIL that there are NO "co-God's" beside Him, nor will there EVER BE!  Here they are if you care to look them up and learn -- Isaiah 43:10-11 -- Isaiah 44:6 -- Isaiah 45:5-7 -- Isaiah 45:18 -- Deut 4:35 -- Isaiah 44:8 -- Hosea 13:4 -- Have fun! :bgdance:


willieH --- 1.  Where does it SAY in the WORD, that JESUS (the man) was "God incarnate"?

Romans
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, [1] condemned sin in the flesh:

So here we have God sending his son in the likness of flesh. So this confirms that the son did indeed exist before entering the world in the likness of human flesh.


Again the same here
Romans
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

So God spared his son. So Jesus is not simply a product/created being that God created during the time of Mary, but rather he existed before incarnating inside Mary's womb.

FIRST -- These verses say NOTHING of JESUS being "God incarnate"...

SECOND -- I have never suggested that JESUS is a product or creation... But as are ALL, He was/is emergent from YHVH, not from Himself.  Your view of the "Creation" is that it somehow was non-existent before it came to BE manifest, yet emerged from an UNCHANGING entity.  This is CONTRARY thinking. 

The Creation is a REVELATION of an UNREVEALED portion of the WORD of YHVH God... which has ALWAYS BEEN within that WORD... a bit more study and prayer might reveal this to you.

THIRD --- (and you shall surely not accept this) We ALL pre-existed this realm Tank -- Job 38:7 -- note ...ALL the SONS of GOD were shouting...  JESUS was 'MADE" in the LIKENESS of SINFUL flesh, but OVERCAME that FLESH in which He (as do we) resided.  Try again, ...this does not prove JESUS was God.  :dontknow:


willieH --- 2.  The WORD says that GOD is EVERLASTING... CHRIST died, therefore was not "everlasting", as He spent time in DEATH (interrupting LIFE) and was not ALIVE... How can it therefore be said that He was GOD which is EVER LASTING (without interruption of LIFE)?

I do not have a precise answer to this  :mshock: but I have two possible answers

1. God died in flesh and his earthly tabernacle, or his temple was destroyed but he continues to exist in spirit, by preaching to the spirits in prison and also meeting the thief on the cross in spirit.

Lots of assuming in this offering...

FIRST --- To say GOD DIED is contrary to who and what He IS... for it proposes CHANGE from EVER LIVING, to DEATH...

SECOND --- You grab a LITERAL interpretation of SPIRITUAL text once again... CHRIST died and was DEAD for 3 days and 3 nights... He wasn't appearing at the "pulpit" of a "prison" preaching to others which are DEAD.  This is talking about US, Tank... You and I and all other humans are the SPIRITS IN PRISON... and until the WORD of God is revealed to us, we remain DEAD and IN the PRISON of SIN -- Matt 8:22

THIRD --- You cling to THEOLOGICAL mythology... The Lord did not "meet" with the THIEF... the THIEF is yet to realize paradise, just as are ALL those mentioned in Heb 11 (faith chapter)... as well as the ENTIRE balance of the human race. 

The Lord simply made a PROMISE to the THIEF on the DAY of their deaths, that the THIEF would BE with Him in paradise... Heck, when Mary encountered Him after His RESURRECTION, He had, ...YET to ASCEND to the Father!!  -- John 20:17

2. If Jesus ceased to exist, God still exists (Father and holy spirit) albeit missing one of their members but still operational. The promise given to Jesus is that God will not leave his soul in hell and thus God is resurected again to life. God dying, seems impossible, but didn't the father say, SACRIFICE my only son.

What a load of DOUBLE-TALK!  :omg:  You have a habit of employing fiction in your answers (if, coulda, woulda, shoulda, maybe, possibly, etc)...

Yes YHVH said "SACRIFICE my only SON"... not "SACRIFICE" a portion of MYSELF and My GODHOOD"... It is not rocket science to note that a "SON" is preceeded by His FATHER.

GOD is ever-lasting and EVER LIVING... which means that NO PORTION of Him can EVER find INTERRUPTION... 

The WORD which was YHVH living IN the MAN, JESUS CHRIST (godhead/divinity) REMOVED Himself before CHRIST died, to which CHRIST reacted -- Mark 15:34 -- He reacted in this manner, for He (like the 1st Adam) came directly from, and was manifest into this realm completely  CONSCIOUS of YHVH and knew HIM intimately having NEVER been separated from Him previously.


willieH ---  3.  The WORD says that GOD cannot be tempted with evil -- James 1:13 -- yet also says that CHRIST was tempted -- Heb 4:15 -- is the WORD contradictory?  Or maybe indeed, the understanding of men as they observe that WORD, that is in contradiction?  :dontknow:

God cannot be tempted with evil, neither can God tempt,  but yet Abraham was tempted by God.

More CONTRARY words... "neither can God tempt, but yet Abraham was tempted by God" -- Abraham was ORDERED to sacrifice His son without QUESTIONING YHVH... no "tempatation" was done... Any more than the 10 Commandments are a set of "temptations"... :rolleye:

Gen 22:1 translates the word TEMPTATION which is the word #H5254 - HUPECHO which means to SUFFER or ENDURE... it does not carry the meaning to propose WRONGDOING... as is the modern perception of TEMPTATION.  God was TESTING Abraham...

Genesis 22:1 (American Standard Version)

1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did prove Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham. And he said, Here am I.

Genesis 22:1 (Young's Literal Translation)

1And it cometh to pass after these things that God hath tried Abraham, and saith unto him, `Abraham;' and he saith, `Here [am] I.'


Genesis 22:1 (New American Standard Bible)

1Now it came about after these things, that God tested Abraham, and said to him, "Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am."

Genesis 22:1 (English Standard Version)

1After these things(A) God tested Abraham and said to him, "Abraham!" And he said, "Here am I."

The picture of YHVH and JESUS CHRIST is embodied in this portrayal... 

A "temptation" of Abraham would be more on the order of telling him, "either YOU will die or your Son will, ...pick one"

More FICTION:

Two possible answers

1. Jesus was God yet, he came in the form of a man and man can be tempted with evil. Good example of Jesus is imagine a F40 ferrari engine stuffed inside a mini, now the ferrari engine can only do so much inside the limitations of the mini and in all sense and purposes the car is not called a ferrari but a mini.

2. God is not limited by his word for he can do the impossible, the temptations of Jesus were there to prove him

"POSSIBLE"?  You note here, that you are completely UNSURE of what you believe...

You falsely place LIMITATION on the WORD of TRUTH... how can we therefore DEPEND upon it?

:omg: --- Are you serious, Tank?  In stating the above, you take the WORD of YHVH and propose that there can be SEPARATIONS between Himself and HIS WORD, ...if He so chooses!  :wacko2: 

You trip over your own words, brother Tank... How can YHVH and His WORD be ONE?  And UNCHANGING, ...if there is "POSSIBILITY" that they can be CONTRARY?  That is (no offense) NONSENSE and you know it. (or, at least, you should know it  :dunno:)

If YOUR PROPOSAL is so... then GOD can LIE... and His WORD is only subject to being TRUTH, if He decides to remain within its "limitations"  :mnah:

You are welcome to this SELF deception if you like...

Luke 4:13   
And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season

1 Corinthians 10:13 
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Not sure what you think you have proposed in these verses, but these hardly prove that JESUS was God... only that He was MAN... As HE noted of Himself MANY times -- Luke 22:69 (and many others) -- and His Apostles followed suit -- 1 Tim 2:5

I'll stop here and finish in another post... :nod:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[eaglesway]

Because they hadn't eaten at His table.

"He appeared to be going further, but they constrained him, saying, "Stay with us, for it is toward evening and the day is now far spent." So he went in to stay with them. When he was at table with them, he took the bread and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them. And their eyes were opened and they recognized him; and he vanished out of their sight."

Wow.....Thank You Lord Jesus.

[Lefein]

WillieH, if Jesus isn't God, then who is he?

Is he Divine, or is he not?

If he is Divine, he must be God - only God is divine.

If he is human...then how can he say that before "Abraham was, I am"

If he is not a human, then how is he our Christ?

If he is an angel, then why does he allow himself to be worshiped?  When Thomas said; "My lord, my God"

If he is not God, then how did Thomas make that confession and not be a heathen?

If he is not God, and is then only Human...how is he Life, and Truth?  Only God is Life (the absolute source and maintainer of it), and only God is Truth (the one who determines what is Reality, what is. Deu 30:20 "God is thy life."

John 6:33  For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

In essence; What is Jesus, if he is not God himself?

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Tank...  :cloud9:

continuing...

PART #2

willieH --- 4.  The WORD says via the WORDS of CHRIST Himself, that He has a "god" -- Mark 15:34 -- How can GOD have a "god"?  (I do not mean this in ANY WAY, to sound at all disrespectful toward the Lord JESUS CHRIST), ...But are you saying that CHRIST is His own "God"?  :dontknow:

Jesus has a question for you willie

Mathew
Jesus Willie, 42, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

Where have you found me arguing this point?  CHRIST is sired by YHVH, ...but is decendent of DAVID.

Who is CHRIST's Father, Tank?  The Scriptures say it is the HOLY SPIRIT -- Matt 1:20 -- Luke 1:35 -- if there are multiple "Gods" which are God... who and what is "the Father" (YHVH)?  And if the "Holy Spirit" portion of God is the FATHER of CHRIST, then why is YHVH referred to as "the FATHER"?

The WORD plainly states that He is child of the HOLY GHOST, ...not (according to you), "the Father" (YHVH)  :dontknow:

Because of the CLOUDS of RELIGIOUS Theology dim your vision, you fail to realize is that YHVH ...IS... the HOLY GHOST (Spirit)  YHVH IS SPIRIT and IS HOLY...


willieH --- 5.  How can CHRIST be a SON of God, and GOD also (a SON being an "offspring")?

John 5:18   
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God

Is Jesus God?

Philippians 2:6   
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God   :dsunny:  :icon_king:

GOD ...IS... ALL in ALL... which means that HE permeates ALL... If every trace of who and what we are is HIM... then how can it be said that we are NOT God?  YHVH even calls men who are sinners and which shall ALL DIE -- gods -- Psalm 82:6-7

That MEN (including JESUS CHRIST who was a MAN -- 1 Tim 2:5) Are ORDERED by the will of YHVH to be who and what they ARE... does not remove them from being "gods"... and also does not mean that they ARE (in origin), YHVH...

They (men) ARE YHVH because (on Eternal, not temporal basis) YHVH chooses to PERMEATE them (men, beginning with JESUS)... not because they (men) ARE of themselves, ..."gods".

Who else can claim to be equal with God? and don't say David Beckam  :soccer:  :laughing7:

Man and woman? Isn't the wife regarded as the weaker sex, but yet equal to the husband?

Feminist theology can wait for another day. We are dealing with the common factor here, not the potentials or the unique woman who can compete with men.

Also women bring in their own unique strengths, which do not compete with men, but a strength which is not so much valued today, but that's another story.

This is just a lot of irrelevant meandering...  :faint:


willieH --- 6. The WORD says that GOD is not a MAN -- Num 23:19 -- but also notes that CHRIST was a MAN -- 1 Tim 2:5 -- and that this MAN was a mediator between GOD and MAN...  If He is GOD, then does He "mediate" between Himself and Himself?

He mediates between man and his father who is greater than all. The problem is that you deny the three therefore it is imposible to come to an adequate answer. It is only when men accept the teachings of Christ above the doctrines of men, that they can understand the relationship between the three. Whom do you choose this day, men or Christ?

Here is a powerful revelation I received only recently

Genesis
18And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, 3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

I'd like to see you intellectually wriggle your way through this one  :laughing7:
Who do you suppose the three represent? And please don't say the three wise men  :grin:

FIRST --- I do not "wriggle" any more than do you, Tank... I believe what I believe, because I have dedicated the last 34 years of my life to the study of the WORD.  I have never stated that I know EVERYTHING... on the contrary... I believe there is an ETERNITY's worth of learning before me.  So as I answer you... it is disingenuous for you to assume that I answer just as a hobby to find ways to confound YOU.  How self-centered is that?  Get over yourSELF!

I answer according to that which I have, within my incomplete knowledge... found to be in alignment with the Scriptures as well as LOGIC and REASON... BOTH of which we are called unto -- Isaiah 1:18 -- Rev 22:17...

We are made in the IMAGE of GOD.  How many PERSONS are YOU, Tank?  And if you would be so kind, please identify which of the THREE, ...I am presently speaking to!  :laughing7:

SECOND ---  I think it is a very creative proposal that you have made, but unfortunately it requires much ASSUMPTION, to declare these THREE as manifestations of the "Father, Son & HS"... Only TWO went down into Sodom... why was that?  Where did the other one go?  Was He not concerned or involved in the coming destruction of these cities?

THIRD --- I propose that GOD is UNSEEN to ALL SINFUL men... as the Scriptures note... and that NO MAN has EVER SEEN GOD at ANY TIME (except CHRIST) -- John 6:46 -- 1:18 -- 1 John 4:20 -- (this "at ANY TIME" includes Abraham in this Scripture) 

(maybe YOU can do a little "wriggling" now, eh?  :laugh:)

I propose these 3 to be ANGELS of GOD... bearing the WORD of GOD to Abraham.  Wherever and whenever the WORD is present, YHVH is present... and in the presence of 2 or MORE, (THREE) WITNESSES is the TRUTH (which is the WORD -- John 14:6) ...established.

Your turn...  :laughing7:


willieH --- 7.  Did a portion of GOD, die?  If so, then that portion of God (Him/them) is NOT PERFECT... for PERFECTION (which means COMPLETE) does not change (nor does it need to)... CHRIST (the man) went from LIFE to DEATH then back to LIFE, which is a notation and progression of change.

This is your opinion of what perfection represents,you have used this argument many times but doesn't really add up as proof as such.

So says you, with NO FOUNDATION provided for your words...

Let's see if it is "my opinion" or the actual meaning of the WORD as used in the WORD...  The word PERFECT in the Greek is -- #5046 TELEIOS -- according to STRONGS means -- COMPLETE/PERFECT -- these words are interchangeable.

This word is used in Matt 5:48 -- instructing us to BE (complete/perfect) -- "TELEIOS" -- as IS the Father in Heaven, which is (complete/perfect) "TELEIOS"...  :declare:

But if we take on board what you say, then perhaps it means that Jesus when he died continued to live, so it means your idea of perfection continues (As I explained on one of my answers previously).

No it does not mean that at all... JESUS the man DIED... the WORD which IS YHVH, removed Himself from the MAN, JESUS, that the sacrifice be completed in the DEATH of INNOCENCE on behalf of the GUILTY.

willieH --- Please explain how it can be stated that He was TOUCHED "with the FEELING of our infirmities" -- Heb 4:15 -- when (according to you) He had no experience with them at all?

There's a big difference between experiencing our infirmity, in let's say the garden of gethsame, where he was in such pain that he sweated blood, perhaps here he experinced some kind of disease or suffering, but that does not mean that Jesus spent his lifetime being sick,

I have never suggested that JESUS was continually SICK... I have stated that there were moments in His life that He experienced variations of ALL the things (including disease), which need HEALING.  He was tempted, because we are, He got hungry because we do, He experienced work, play, humor, sorrow, ...all the things we experience...

oh no Jesus was a man of faith the scriptures say that the child grew and had great knowledge of the scriptures, even going to the temples to learn.
You see that Jesus since his childhood was taught and he grew, this means he was not God, but yet was God. In other words he was God but yet became like us, in order to bethe perfect sacrifice without blemish.
The faith he had is the same faith that we have access to, we can in fact do the same miracles he did and even more, but living a holy life the same as Jesus did is paramount to achieving these kinds of miracles, the other major difference between us and him is that he was created sinless and never sinned not once throughout his life.

There are several flaws in your observation bro...

FIRST --- GOD does NOT need to "learn"... He KNOWS ALL... If JESUS was God, then "learning" was not necessary. He displayed that He did not possess all knowledge, when He asked if it were possible, that the CUP be removed...  :dontknow:  As well as asking GOD, why He had WITHDRAWN -- Mark 15:34 -- If He were GOD, then He would have KNOWN the answer to this question.  :dontknow:

SECOND --- ALL men are "created" sinless... What baby has SINNED?  Sin is a conscious involvement in the TRANSGRESSION of the LAW -- 1 John 3:4 -- No child purposes SIN until he/she becomes aware of the choices being either GOOD or EVIL.  The word SIN means "missing the mark"... Try looking it up.

willieH --- Please explain how it can be stated that He was TOUCHED "with the FEELING of our infirmities" -- Heb 4:15 -- when (according to you) He had no experience with them at all?

That is just like a MAN, stating to a WOMAN amidst childbirth -- "I know" what you're going through"...  :rolleye:  

Like I explained in the "comedy section" I did, how can Christ say I know what you going through to a woman in child birth? Please answer that?

If YHVH chose to reveal the experience in the mind of the man JESUS... then He could hold the perception... that did not necessarily take place, for He experienced the ENTIRE human condition... successfully, ...I do not believe CHRIST experienced EVERY disease or EVERY type of pain... but neither does any other man. 

We share the human experience with sufferings of disease, injury, disappointment, dispair, etc... but each experience varies concerning which of these we encounter (not everyone experiences cancer, aids, heart disease, war, physical beatings, mental disorder, etc), but we ALL get our portions of them.

No other man (other than JESUS, if the Father decided He should know) is capable of "knowing" what a woman experiences in childbirth.  :winkgrin:

He sweated blood in the garden of gethsame, isn't that enough? Hasn't the lord suffered enough already, but yet you want to say he suffered sickness throughout his life, even though he never sinned?

As I have already noted... I have not suggested that He was "sick" His entire life.  I said that He could not be "touched" with the "feeling", unless in fact, He was.

willieH --- Crucifixtion, beatings, humiliations are definitely sorrowful endurings, but are not the SAME as enduring the INFIRMITIES of disease.  I got my butt kicked more than once being raised in East Los Angeles...  :swordfight:  ...but those beatings, as sorrowful as they were, do not compare to, nor are they the SAME experience as the CANCER that I am presently battling!  :mnah:

I'm sure that cancer is a tough disease to battle and only sufferers know what it's like, but  :mshock: cruxification not the same? How can you boast and say your disease is far worse than what the lord had to go through?

I did not say that cancer was "far worse" then "crucifixtion"... It is YOU which have said this. 

I have just stated that recieving BEATINGS is NOT the same as suffering of DISEASE.  Mental dispair is suffering which cannot be compared to BEATINGS, ...STARVATION is suffering which cannot be compared to BEATINGS, ...LOSS of LOVED ones is suffering which cannot be compared to BEATINGS... etc, etc.

Here's a scripture for you

1 Peter 4:12   
Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

What revelence has this verse?

Also the old testament saints

Hebrews 11:36   
And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

These men during the course of their lives, surely also suffered various "bouts" with HEALTH issues (disease) as well as the mentioned, scourgings.

To finish on a positive note heres a scripture of encouragment
3 John 1:2  
Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

Why would John wish this, if HEALTH issues would not arise in believers?  Just because we have FAITH, does not exempt us from the various sufferings which must be encountered on the PATHWAY to PERFECTION (completeness!) -- Heb 2:10

:Peace: Tank...

...willieH  :happygrin:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Rebecca... :hithere:

All I can gather is that getting sick has to do with sin and sin has to do with getting sick.....I think that is BS

:cloud9: This is what I've seen to be true. At the very least, some sickness is caused by sin. Some is from generational curses where the sick person did not themselves commit the sin, but the fruit of it was passed down.

The elementary principle of the laying on of hands (prayer for the sick), comes from the mandates pertaining to the sin offering . The tabernacle was their "doctor's office". The people confessed their sin, brought their sacrifice, laid hands on it, and the sin was remitted and they were healed.

Same principle as the Israelites who had to look to the brazen serpent on the pole to receive healing, after serpents bit them for their sin. Check this out....

John 5:4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had . 5 And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years. 6 When Jesus saw him lie , and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole? 7 The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled , to put me into the pool: but while I am coming , another steppeth down before me. 8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise , take up thy bed, and walk . 9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked : and on the same day was the sabbath. 10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured , It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed. 11 He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk . 12 Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk ? 13 And he that was healed wist not who it was : for Jesus had conveyed himself away , a multitude being in that place. 14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.


:cloud9: @ Willie......look at what I never noticed before in verse 5!!!

John 5:5  And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years.  :mshock:

WOW sister Card... The Lord is indeed using you to reveal a very unique observation about disease...  :thumbsup:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Lefein...  :cloud9:

Do you really wish to READ my answers to your questions, brother Lefein?   Won't you be getting headaches?  :dontknow:

Hope you don't get a headache...  :friendstu:

I have been a believer in the "ONENESS" of God for 34 years.  :Book:

I spent much time (25 years) in the "trinitarian" church system as well... Believing that our human perceptions can be incorrect, and fellowshipping with many that I firmly disagreed with on this subject.  They indeed were loving and wonderful people, and I have nothing negative to report of any of them... all of them however, were just like me... SINNERS.  I wished to get experience with their theological viewpoint, and concerning "church", there were very few alternative Christian fellowship options available (still are very few)...

TRUTH is a revelation that must be sought, not just taught and then promptly "believed".

Most "church going" Christians are taught their "beliefs"... I took a different route.  

I studied, then discussed with leaders, that which I discovered.  They himmed & hawwed until it just became redundant futility.  In any conversation with any which hold JESUS as GOD, ...I hold nothing against them OR YOU...  As I said previously... I hold the deepest respect and LOVE for Him... and always will.

But when the TRUTH is discussed, and then debated from UNBIBLICAL and/or UNREASONABLE and/or ILLOGICAL positions... Those who cling to that which has been TAUGHT them without investigation of those "teachings", will have to bear that insistence, before the throne.

Most Christianity thinks the sorrowfully behaved drunks, drug users, whores, or murderers have the worst to look forward to in facing GOD...  I believe it is those who IGNORE the truth of the WORD, that shall bear WORSE SHAME than any of these "outcasts".

WillieH, if Jesus isn't God, then who is he?

He was who He said He was -- Son of MAN, ...Son of GOD...

The HUMAN Son of Man (born into sinful flesh)... the emergent Son of GOD (permeated by the almighty YHVH)...

He is the FIRSTBORN of many (other SONS of GOD)... FIRST to RISE from DEATH... FIRST to live WITHOUT SIN (adhereing PERFECTLY to the 10 commandments, which are not only the "law of the judgment of SIN", but are prophetic as well)

Is he Divine, or is he not?

ALL are emergent of the DIVINE... only ONE is GOD, that is YHVH... all others are emergent SONS of GOD.  There are NO other "gods" beside Him, or in cooperation with Him... but there are INNUMERABLE "gods" which are EMERGENT of YHVH, beginning with CHRIST.

If he is Divine, he must be God - only God is divine.

JESUS is NOT divine of Himself... He is divine, because He is the Son of GOD... ALL shall, in the ETERNAL be "divine" for YHVH ...IS...  ALL in ALL in that setting...

If he is human...then how can he say that before "Abraham was, I am"

JESUS spoke both as a MAN, and from the position of YHVH during which He bore audibly and physically, the UNSEEN, and SILENT God of ALL men... (including CHRIST) which (with His own voice) noted YHVH as HIS GOD -- Mark 15:34 -- and which the Apostle Paul also noted under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit -- Eph 1:3

If he is not a human, then how is he our Christ?

It is YHVH God which puts all things under His feet -- 1 Cor 15:28 -- and once this is COMPLETE... then so shall CHRIST be subject to the ONE which has done this... HIS GOD, ...YHVH

If he is an angel, then why does he allow himself to be worshiped?  When Thomas said; "My lord, my God"

Never said He was an "angel"... He was a MAN... but we no longer KNOW Him after the flesh -- 2 Cor 5:16 -- we KNOW Him as the WORSHIP WORTHY, first SON of GOD... and we are to cast ourselves at His feet, for YHVH has called us to do so.

He is worthy at this point bro... and THOMAS is "put under His feet" in this verse...

JESUS, had already ascended to the Father (for before, Mary was instructed NOT to touch Him -- John 20:17 -- and in this instance He invited THOMAS to do so -- John 20:27) ...by this time, He was permeated with YHVH... as He is now back in the ETERNAL state in which YHVH ...is... [UNCHANGINGLY] ALL in ALL...

If he is not God, then how did Thomas make that confession and not be a heathen?

Just answered that Lefein... JESUS is "KING of Kings"... LORD of Lords... which means that ALL men shall be known as KINGS, and LORDS...  :dontknow:

Why is JESUS, KING? or LORD?  Because the FULLNESS of YHVH permeates Him.

If he is not God, and is then only Human...how is he Life, and Truth?  Only God is Life (the absolute source and maintainer of it), and only God is Truth (the one who determines what is Reality, what is. Deu 30:20 "God is thy life."

As I have just said... CHRIST did NOTHING (here's the key) -- OF HIMSELF -- John 5:19 -- where He notes that He is the WAY, TRUTH and LIFE... is the MAN (which asked the cup to pass) manifesting the voice of the SPIRIT of YHVH... who marks the WAY of MEN -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 20:24 -- Prov 21:1

John 6:33  For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

In essence; What is Jesus, if he is not God himself?

JESUS is the manifest HUMAN vehicle [Son] in which YHVH GOD visited the earth, and walked amongst men... via His SON, who was SENT and who was DIRECTED in all ways by YHVH...

It is the WORD of the Heart of GOD which was manifest in the doings and speech of CHRIST...

The WORD is "SON" to the knowledge of the HEART which is FATHER to that WORD, and from which the WORD finds its emergent point.

The WORD and FATHER are not separate entites, ...the WORD is the spoken/written  REVELATION (son) of the HEART of God (father)...

If you care to, it is beneficial to investigate the actual meaning of the words JESUS CHRIST...

#G2424 -- IESOUS [JESUS] is an emergent derivitive of the Hebrew word -- #H3091 YeHOWSHUA -- which means YHVH SAVES.

#G5547 CRISTOS [CHRIST] which means -- anointed one

The MAN -- JESUS CHRIST (the man) -- is not the Savior, He is the mediator between MEN and GOD -- 1 Tim 2:5

YHVH God --- is the Savior and creator of the human race...  

Isaiah 43:11 -- I [even] I, [am] YHVH and beside ...ME... there is NO -- SAVIOR.

Hosea 13:4 -- Yet I [am] YHVH thy GOD from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt KNOW NO GOD but ME; for [there is] NO SAVIOR BESIDE ...ME.

JESUS CHRIST was the vehicle and sacrifice which YHVH God (who is SPIRIT), utilized to SAVE men, by sacrificing that which was INNOCENT, to restore the GUILTY.

...willieH  :cloud9: