aprrently the rapture will know be on july 24...

[Wakawakawaka]

A lot have been talking this past year about how the rapture is imminent.

Many have been talking about specific natural disasters that are to occur and many of those agree with each other also.

Most do not give specific dates, but just say 'soon.'

You can tell they have a feeling of urgency.

But I how do you know this hasnt been going on since earlier times, i mean communication has gotten a lot more easy then it did many years ago

[Molly]

A lot have been talking this past year about how the rapture is imminent.

Many have been talking about specific natural disasters that are to occur and many of those agree with each other also.

Most do not give specific dates, but just say 'soon.'

You can tell they have a feeling of urgency.

But I how do you know this hasnt been going on since earlier times, i mean communication has gotten a lot more easy then it did many years ago

I've had an eye on youtube since its inception.  It's the first time I've seen it like this, although I will admit it is simply a perception on my part.  I cannot prove it.

[Molly]

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.
--2 Thes 2:7

Is this a rapture verse?  If it is the Holy Spirit who is restraining the mystery of lawlessness, when will he be taken out of the way?   Will it be when the Spirit filled Christians are removed at the rapture?


2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

--2 Thess 2


So first there will be 'a falling away,' and then the Antichrist will be revealed, because there is no longer the one present who held him back.

The term translated as 'falling away' could also be translated as 'departure,' as in the rapture, and it was in the earlier Bibles before KJV.

"falling away"

From the root word

G868
ἀφίστημι
aphistēmi
af-is'-tay-mee
From G575 and G2476; to remove, that is, (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.: - depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.

It makes more sense to read it as--> the departure of the Holy Spirit [in the vessels of Spirit filled Christians] will allow the Antichrist to come to the full realization of his power.

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.  2 Thess 2

[Wakawakawaka]

A lot have been talking this past year about how the rapture is imminent.

Many have been talking about specific natural disasters that are to occur and many of those agree with each other also.

Most do not give specific dates, but just say 'soon.'

You can tell they have a feeling of urgency.

But I how do you know this hasnt been going on since earlier times, i mean communication has gotten a lot more easy then it did many years ago

I've had an eye on youtube since its inception.  It's the first time I've seen it like this, although I will admit it is simply a perception on my part.  I cannot prove it.

ive did a check its been going on for years.....besides its 2012....and i think its the post tribber whom mostly dream of disasters

[dajomaco]

IMO. The Holy Spirit has been leading me to make plans for my Family.
and lay up an inheritance to the third generation.

[WhiteWings]

IMO. The Holy Spirit has been leading me to make plans for my Family.
and lay up an inheritance to the third generation.

Meaning a deep recession or something?

[reFORMer]

Dot No. 4.......Any serious Bible student should know that the flood in the days of Noah was a type of the coming Tribulation period. The Lord Himself verified this truth when He spoke of the

"great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no nor ever shall be," Matthew 24:21, and then in the same chapter the Lord also said, "But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be," 24:37. The Greek word translated as "coming" in verse 37 and again in verse 39 in this passage is the word, "parousia." This word is repeatedly connected with the rapture of New Covenant believers in the New Testament. It is not speaking of the Lord's return at the end of the Tribulation.

Not only is the word "parousia" associated with the word "rapture," so is "harpazo," as well as other concepts.  I can't say turn to such and such a chapter and verse to see what it says about "rapture" because none exist.  It is a traditional and extra-biblical category.  "Parousia," being a Greek word in the Scripture, is a category God uses to make His revelation known.  The same is true of "harpazo."  However, there is nothing that melds these two words into one category in the Scripture.  The word "parousia" means "to be (to exist,) to be present, presence."  It is not about something coming from someplace else.  At least forty times the word "parousia" is misleadingly translated as "coming" in the King James Version.

If you don't know what it is that is supposed to happen, are unaware of what we should be expecting, why would you think you'd know when it'll happen?

To put various categories, Scripture words or not, into one extra-biblical word is a working of deception.  It confuses several specific categories God set up as separate.  It erases the boundaries between particular words God used for other purposes.  It is what Paul the apostle called "blasphemy"  In the Greek this is a word that means, "To not use the proper harness, hence letting the horse (ie., word) run wild."

There is nothing about two 2nd comings in the Bible.  There is nothing there about any period of time between two 2nd comings or some period of time between a coming "for" His saints and a coming "with" His saints.  The phrase, "coming FOR His saints" also never occurs in the Scripture.   

Many interesting facts can be gathered about various things; but, when those things are not specified by actual words God chose to make His revelation known followers of the Truth do not believe them.  All the more so when those made up things replace what God has spoken.  Remember how the King was throwing a party (Feast of Tabernacles) and Vashti not only would not come to it to be seen, to be manifested, she also created her own party (the Rapture) instead.

Molly,

You didn't respond to this preceding that I wrote on the 28th.  I have seen people enthused, both joyously and with rage, yet they aren't in the truth.  Their passion is after a deception.  It is important to see and judge within ourselves whether we are operating out of religious obsession or spiritual quickening.  Often, in seeking to correct someone called a Pastor, they have reacted with red face, veins-a-poppin', spit-a-flyin', hollerin', bellowin', and sometimes getting ushers or even the police to haul me out when I would walk out under my own power if they'd've just asked.  I did nothing but try to speak with the Pastor about matters in Scripture semi-privately after the meeting was over.  They don't seem able to see themselves.  They're blind to the carnal fit they had, some even thinking it was of God.  I speak this way because I recognize you are very energized over this topic.

To me one of the ground rules for a discussion of things of God is to confine ourselves to the vocabulary God chose to use.  As I also explained above, this is to not to use an extra- and non-biblical word for a category of doctrine.  It's done with pasting the English "hell" over several Greek words and adding to the mix the lake of fire, which they don't call hell.  Other ingredients are Pagan myths and traditions of men.  The result is not Good doctrine.  It is not Biblical truth.  I say you're doing the same with the word, "Rapture."  How can I respect what you say when you don't respect what God says enough to keep His word.  Instead you throw it out to create this nonbiblical category using the terminology of fairly recent traditions of men.

Would you explain to me what you find wrong with what I'm pleading for here in this post?

[Molly]

Hi Reformer, I did respond to your post by giving the Greek word and it's definitions.  It could be translated as, "coming," as you can see.


"coming" [of the Son of man]
G3952
παρουσία
parousia
par-oo-see'-ah
From the present participle of G3918; a being near, that is, advent (often, return; specifically of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physical aspect: - coming, presence.

You also said the KJV had mistranslated it as 'coming,' so I included seventeen translations that all use that same word.  The meaning they all convey is that there is an event where Christ will be 'coming' [for his saints, or to punish the wicked], one translation even translates it as 'returning.'

New International Version (©1984)
As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

New Living Translation (©2007)
"When the Son of Man returns, it will be like it was in Noah's day.

English Standard Version (©2001)
For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

International Standard Version (©2008)
because just as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be when the Son of Man comes.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
But just as the days of Noah, so will the coming of The Son of Man be.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"When the Son of Man comes again, it will be exactly like the days of Noah.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

American King James Version
But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

American Standard Version
And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And as in the days of Noe, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Darby Bible Translation
But as the days of Noe, so also shall be the coming of the Son of man.

English Revised Version
And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man.

Webster's Bible Translation
But as the days of Noah were, so will also the coming of the Son of man be.

Weymouth New Testament
For as it was in the time of Noah, so it will be at the Coming of the Son of Man.

World English Bible
"As the days of Noah were, so will be the coming of the Son of Man


I agree about the word 'rapture.'   The only advantage it carries for me is that everyone knows what I am talking about.  If I said the 'parousia,' or the 'harpazo' no one would know what I was talking about.  Given your point of view, I could understand why the use of that word offends you, so I could stop using it I guess, but then I would use something like 'the coming or the return of Jesus ,' which would probably equally offend you.

Other than that, what do you think all these passages are describing?  We have a description of Jesus appearing in the sky with angels, a trumpet is sounded, the dead in Christ are raised, and the saints who are alive follow them to meet him in the air.   What is that describing? 

[Molly]

Or here, Reformer, we are given a prophesy by Enoch about Jesus coming with his saints.

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.  --Jude 1



What event is this describing?  Where did those saints come from?  Do they bear any relationship to the dead in Christ and the saints called to meet him in the air at the sound of the trumpet?

Is this describing a different event from the aforementioned event described in 1 Thess 4?  That event mentions nothing about judgment, but the coming of Jesus with his saints in Jude 1 is to execute judgment on the wicked of the world.

Doesn't it sound like these two passages are describing different events?

[WhiteWings]

Jesus  rules His Kingdom with the Overcomers.
He rules with a rod of iron.
Biblical judgement isn't always doom and gloom.

So, for me, the two events you mentioned very well can be the same event.
I wouldn't be suprised at all if it also equals 'another' event. "...tormented in the presence of the Lamb and His angels...

[lomarah]

 :goodpost:

[redhotmagma]

Jesus  rules His Kingdom with the Overcomers.
He rules with a rod of iron.
Biblical judgement isn't always doom and gloom.

So, for me, the two events you mentioned very well can be the same event.
I wouldn't be suprised at all if it also equals 'another' event. "...tormented in the presence of the Lamb and His angels...

I agree with judgement by saints being the lof. He makes his misters flames of fire.

[reFORMer]

Hi Reformer, I did respond to your post by giving the Greek word and it's definitions.  It could be translated as, "coming," as you can see.

What Greek Word?  There is no Greek word for Rapture.

"coming" [of the Son of man]
G3952
παρουσία
parousia
par-oo-see'-ah
From the present participle of G3918; a being near, that is, advent (often, return; specifically of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physical aspect: - coming, presence.

You also said the KJV had mistranslated it as 'coming,' so I included seventeen translations that all use that same word.  The meaning they all convey is that there is an event where Christ will be 'coming' [for his saints, or to punish the wicked], one translation even translates it as 'returning.'

Are you implying parousia is the Geek for Rapture?  Like you later speak of harpazo as well.  This confusion, using several words, creating extrabiblical categories is how deception works while making a show of using Bible information.  That's why I mentioned blasphemy.  It is to not harness the power of a word with its true meaning.  Mixing words together with other words destroys their discrete meanings.  We can maintain relationships between words if there is one laid out for us by the LORD.  I don't know any Scripture that says parousia and harpazo are the same event.

When I mentioned the over 20 times use of "coming" for parousia I meant to clearly indicate how false and misleading it is.  It is a significant contribution to darkening mens' minds to what is impending in God's plan.  Parousia means, "To be, to be present, presence."  It is not about something coming here from somewhere else.  It is something that is already here.  Instead of something developing now withing us people expect something gone away to arrive outside of us in the future.  Which path of awareness you follow in this matter can make a lot of difference to whether we are developing in the image and likeness of Christ or not.

Some Greek word study books stress the use of it by translators.  The Strong's Greek and Hebrew Dictionaries are usage based, which has its value; but, one needs to consult a Lexicon or Theological Dictionary.  The use of various Bible translations is of limited authority.  Often they are following the familiar, the words that fit present acceptable doctrine.  It seems today faithfulness to God has been supplanted with pleasing the market group they've targeted.

I agree about the word 'rapture.'   The only advantage it carries for me is that everyone knows what I am talking about.  If I said the 'parousia,' or the 'harpazo' no one would know what I was talking about.  Given your point of view, I could understand why the use of that word offends you, so I could stop using it I guess, but then I would use something like 'the coming or the return of Jesus ,' which would probably equally offend you.

Here, immediately above, you put harpazo and parousia together.  When I get a little more time I'll try to come back with a simple list of "Rapture" things for which nary a hint can be discovered in the Scripture.  When you say you use the word rapture because everybody knows what you mean I think you're being enormously over optimistic.  Like, when all the racially Gentile Christians are supposed to suddenly disappear, where do they go?  For my mother it is not the time we're all physically transfigured or resurrected, nor is it the 2nd coming.  We go to the city 4-square, a literal artifact of metal and crystal coming down out of the northern sky.  It is here we are to partake of the marriage supper of the lamb.  I have no idea how many attach this to their concept of the rapture.  Do you?  I think we're not aware of the multitudinous concepts under the term "Rapture."  The steeple-house practice of keeping everybody from contributing hides the lack of unity of knowledge we actually have.  It has long seemed the best approach is to beak the doctrine down into its component parts, try to define and validate each Biblically or reject as being unsubstantiated by the Word.

Other than that, what do you think all these passages are describing?  We have a description of Jesus appearing in the sky with angels, a trumpet is sounded, the dead in Christ are raised, and the saints who are alive follow them to meet him in the air.   What is that describing?

[WhiteWings]

I think the first thing that should be done in this rapture discussion is finding a OT parallel.
Or look at a NT parable. For example the 10 virgins.
They apantesis/meet their groom. A few verses later the groom is in the house of the virgins.

Paul's journey from Jerusalem to Rome as a prisoner:

Acts 28:15 And the brethren, when they heard about us, came from there as far as the Market of Appius and Three Inns [Greek: Taberne] to meet [apantesis] us; and when Paul saw them, he thanked God and took courage.

The Christians in Rome came to meet Paul as though he were a visiting dignitary. This was a great encouragement to Paul. Yet it is clear that Paul did not turn around and take these Christians back to Jerusalem. They met Paul and escorted him to Rome.1 Thessalonians 4:17 says that we will "meet" the Lord in the air. The Greek word translated "to meet" is apantesis. Apantesis is the technical term that describes what the town leaders do when a very important person comes to visit them. They send a welcome delegation to meet him. But the delegation does not go back to the hometown of the visiting dignitary. Instead, they escort him to their own town

http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/SecondComing/Chap13.htm

[jabcat]

That's an interesting article, Tony.  I like these parts;



In other words, there will be a second flood, but its purpose will not be to destroy, or to remove the spirit of life from men. Its purpose will be to regenerate all flesh by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in a baptism of fire. As in the days of Noah, this second flood will take the earth by surprise. Those who are incorrigible in this present age will be removed from power and ultimately confined to a portion of the earth that is outside the boundary of the Kingdom of God. This is the "outer darkness" that Jesus mentioned in His parables. But even this will not be a permanent state of affairs, because ultimately, the Kingdom of God will fill the whole earth as the waters cover the sea. Since water covers the entire sea, this means that the glory of God is going to cover the entire earth.

As the Tabernacles Age continues, the fire of God will be so powerful that the vast majority of the people will be converted and begin to learn of His ways. Then will be fulfilled the words of the prophet in Isaiah 2:2-4,

2 Now it will come about that In the last days, the mountain of the house of the LORD will be established as the chief of the mountains, and will be raised above the hills; and all the nations will stream to it. 3 And many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; that He may teach us concerning His ways, and that we may walk in His paths." For the law will go forth from Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And He will judge between the nations, and will render decisions for many peoples; and they will hammer their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, and never again will they learn war.

The wicked will either be removed, executed for their crimes, or (in most cases, I believe) converted to Christ by the baptism of fire. This will cleanse and purify the earth, making a place fit to be His footstool (Matthew 5:35).

When Will Every Eye See Him?

In Revelation 1:7 John tells us,

7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. Even so. Amen.

This is simply a statement of fact. The verse does not attempt to tell us WHEN everyone will see Him, nor even HOW. We do have Peter's testimony in Acts 3:20, 21, where he speaks of the "times of refreshing," and "restoration of all things."

These times of refreshing and restoration are not moments in history, but long periods of time in the ages to come. The beginning of these times coincide with the second coming of Christ, when the overcomers fulfill the Feast of Tabernacles. The fulfillment of this feast is, in effect, the authority to enter the Holy of Holies, breaking through the third and final veil that separates us from God and hides His glory. Hence, it seems to us that the only way men will actually see Christ in His glory will be as they come into the Feast of Tabernacles.

This will take place over a period of time. Most of us are accustomed to thinking that when Jesus comes, He will do everything immediately. All the wicked will be destroyed, and the righteous taken to heaven. This simplistic view has prevented us from fully appreciating the great Sabbath millennium, where God brings the earth into a time of rest under His rule. We believe that the overcomers will be the only ones raised from the dead and glorified on the eighth day of Tabernacles toward the beginning of this thousand-year period. We also believe that the rest of the Church will come into the Tabernacles experience at the beginning of the eighth thousand-year period. This will be in the early days after the Sabbath millennium.

The distinction between these two resurrections in Revelation 20 points to the idea that not all Christians will come into perfection at the same time. It strongly suggests that the Church will need to continue learning and progressing in the path of righteousness that moves from Passover to Pentecost to Tabernacles. In other words, Christians who have developed only partially in their walk with God will not be able to see the glory of God in the Holy of Holies until they have learned the lessons that each feast was designed to teach them. They will not be allowed to act in a lazy fashion, saying, "It does not matter what I do, since we will all be glorified at the same time when Jesus comes."

Nonetheless, all may certainly see Christ in the overcomers as they manifest Christ's character and do His works in the earth. Jesus said that they would do greater works than He did (John 14:12). In a very real sense, these overcomers have a calling to be Christ's great "cloud of witnesses."

A cloud not only manifests the glory of God, but it also hides or veils His glory. Remember that Jesus' flesh was the veil that hid the glory of God while He walked this earth (Heb. 10:20). Even so, the overcomers--who are His body--are also a veil that covers His glory. When the rest of the people see them in the earth, they are seeing Christ's body, but not His full glory. They manifest Him even as Jesus manifested the glory of the Father.

In like manner, the overcomers will both manifest and hide His glory from those who are not yet capable and qualified to view the glory of God in its full magnitude. These overcomers will have spiritual bodies like Jesus had after His resurrection, and they will appear to others as normal people with abnormal wisdom and deeds.

Jesus Christ has always been present upon the earth. He created all things, and He has never left the earth in that sense. Yet Jesus said He must leave. But then He told the disciples that He would never leave them nor forsake them (Heb. 13:5). Yet He also told them that He must leave them in order to send them "another Comforter" (John 14:16). This can be quite confusing to the average Christian. Is He here or not?

The question is not whether He is on earth or not. It is really a question of His manifestation. He has not fully manifested Himself on earth yet. He has not yet stepped out from behind the veil. He is still veiled by clouds, because the earth is not yet ready to behold His full glory.

Thus, the coming of Christ cannot imply that He ever really left the earth. He was taken from our sight by the clouds. He veiled Himself with clouds of witnesses, so that to see Him, one must look at His body. And yet, God's ultimate purpose is to expose Himself, in His naked glory, to the whole earth. This will happen in stages, as the rest of mankind follows the path from the outer court to the Holy of Holies. The overcomers are those who came into this full maturity first, but they are certainly not the only ones who will behold His glory at the end of time.

There are some who recognize these things, but conclude that Jesus Christ will not come in person, but "come" only through His saints or through the Church. Others go so far as to say that Jesus Christ is no longer an individual that is distinct from His body. We believe that these views take the point too far. In our view, Jesus Christ will always remain distinct from mankind. The head and the body must join together as one, but the head will always be the head, and the body will always be the body. Jesus Christ will marry the bride, and yet remain distinct from them in the same sense that a husband and wife are united as one and yet remain distinct.

Jesus Christ is coming again as a distinct individual. However, Jesus has been here since the beginning of time. The problem is that from the advent of sin, God had to hide His glory from mankind, lest he be destroyed. The purpose of Christ's coming is not to change locations, but to manifest Himself by degrees from the spiritual dimension into the physical universe. This will continue until the whole earth is full of His glory.

These are the times of refreshing and restoration of all things prophesied in Acts 3, which we quoted earlier. The heavens must receive Christ UNTIL these times. When Christ comes, it is heaven itself coming to earth, for where He is, there is heaven. His presence itself transforms earth into heaven, and we know that ultimately His glory will cover the earth, making it a new earth that is heavenly. But this will be a process of time, and as men mature and grow up into Christ, they will come fully into His presence and manifest His glory. In that sense, Christ must remain in the realm or spiritual dimension called "heaven" until the whole earth manifests His glory. Only then will all things be refreshed and fully restored. Then we can truly say that Christ has come to earth in the fullest possible sense.  http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/SecondComing/Chap13.htm

[jabcat]

Whether 100% or not, I think what he says makes a lot of sense and deserves consideration.  He seems to say;

1.  Jesus never fully "left", it's more so that He's been veiled from most, as during this age the Holy Spirit has been "more present"

2.  He will "return", as in, He will physically/literally appear more clearly - suddenly to some, and then be gradually revealed more and more to mankind.  In so doing, He will take the spiritual into a literal, earth-covering reality

3. There will be a catching away/catching up, but similar to what I suggested earlier, it's a brief "meeting" just off terra firma (solid ground), rather than a complete "going away" (as in the Left Behind rapture scenario).  He then suggests there's an "escorting" of Jesus "to our abode", basically, into clearer view.

4.  He will manifest, through direct relationship, with His bride, and in doing so bring [the rest of] humanity to Him, until "the whole earth is full of His glory".

[WhiteWings]

Whether 100% or not, I think what he says makes a lot of sense and deserves consideration.

Most of his writing do. He usually backs up his claims with lots of verses.
The chapter you have just read is part of a book. Not unusual for chapters  :laughing7:

The Laws of the Second Coming

[jabcat]

 :bigGrin:

When Jones says "Thus, the coming of Christ cannot imply that He ever really left the earth. He was taken from our sight by the clouds. He veiled Himself with clouds of witnesses, so that to see Him, one must look at His body. And yet, God's ultimate purpose is to expose Himself, in His naked glory, to the whole earth.

There are some who recognize these things, but conclude that Jesus Christ will not come in person, but "come" only through His saints or through the Church. Others go so far as to say that Jesus Christ is no longer an individual that is distinct from His body. We believe that these views take the point too far. In our view, Jesus Christ will always remain distinct from mankind. The head and the body must join together as one, but the head will always be the head, and the body will always be the body. Jesus Christ will marry the bride, and yet remain distinct from them in the same sense that a husband and wife are united as one and yet remain distinct..", much of it to me seems to be a reasonable, likely view that sort of bridges the gap between some of the many POVs on this subject.  Christ "returns", we are "caught up" and "meet Him", He manifests in us and is literally present, without going into questionable extremes.   :2c: 

[jabcat]

Whether 100% or not, I think what he says makes a lot of sense and deserves consideration.

Most of his writing do. He usually backs up his claims with lots of verses.
The chapter you have just read is part of a book. Not unusual for chapters  :laughing7:

The Laws of the Second Coming

:)

He was able to put into words what is probably about as close to "my view" as I can come right now.  Thanks for that.  :mthumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

There are some who recognize these things, but conclude that Jesus Christ will not come in person, but "come" only through His saints or through the Church.

In a way that certainly is true. I think you should add Bible to that list.
Jesus is the Word. Saints obviously speak the word of God. Ok, it requires some bending of defenitions, but still.....

Others go so far as to say that Jesus Christ is no longer an individual that is distinct from His body. We believe that these views take the point too far. In our view, Jesus Christ will always remain distinct from mankind.

I think so too. Even in/during the all-in-all phase.

The head and the body must join together as one, but the head will always be the head, and the body will always be the body.

But work as one team. All parts of your body benefit from your hands putting food in your mouth. The hands in their turn benefit from the energy the body generates from that food.

Jesus Christ will marry the bride, and yet remain distinct from them in the same sense that a husband and wife are united as one and yet remain distinct..", much of it to me seems to be a reasonable, likely view that sort of bridges the gap between some of the many POVs on this subject.

I think so yes. All (most?) Christians believe we become one with God. But I think none (very few?) believe we actually become God. Bot talking about as gods etc. But the supreme creator God.

Christ "returns", we are "caught up" and "meet Him", He manifests in us and is literally present, without going into questionable extremes.   :2c:

What does "up" mean? Picking up  a literal body or the most used term in this forum's prayer section "I'll lift you up".....
Meaning the saints get a spiritual boost. Perhaps a bit like the dove that decended on Jesus during baptism. I'm not saying Jesus was pagan before baptism but I think the event unleashed more of His power so to speak.... ????

[jabcat]

messed up the quotes.  jabcat said;   Christ "returns", we are "caught up" and "meet Him", He manifests in us and is literally present, without going into questionable extremes.   :2c:

WW said;  What does "up" mean? Picking up  a literal body or the most used term in this forum's prayer section "I'll lift you up".....
Meaning the saints get a spiritual boost. Perhaps a bit like the dove that decended on Jesus during baptism. I'm not saying Jesus was pagan before baptism but I think the event unleashed more of His power so to speak.... ????

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If I understand what Jones is saying, it will be a literal physical going to meet Him, then "escorting" Him back to where we are, rather than totally leaving as in a "rapture".  He describes it as running out to meet an arriving dignitary (in honor), then accompanying him the rest of his journey.  At that point, the bride is changed in a twinkling of an eye, the mortal taking on immortality, and then having Him manifest in the bride - bestowing special blessings and spiritual powers and abilities - to bring the rest in.  Again, rings pretty true to me. 

[WhiteWings]

If I understand what Jones is saying, it will be a literal physical going to meet Him, then "escorting" Him back to where we are, rather than totally leaving as in a "rapture".

I'm sure that he means that.

[WhiteWings]

He also draws a parallel between the coming of Jesus and Moses going up the mountain.
Moses stayed 40 days. Jones sees a possible parallel with Jesus staying there 40 Jubilee years. That part I understand.
But what about the other 7 times Moses went up?

[Molly]

For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.  Mat 24:37

Why does Jesus cite Noah here?  What happened in the days of Noah?  Men ate and drank until the day Noah walked into the ark and the floods came and they all died.

I don't see this 'rapture' as a meeting in order to immediately escort him back to some wonderful encounter with the earth.  I see this as entering into the ark while something devastating happens to the earth.  This is one reason I do not think the saints will return immediately to the earth with Christ.  The other reason is that there has to be time for the marriage ceremony and consummation.  Jesus does not step foot on the earth in the 1 Thess 4 passages, he is met in the air.  If he were going to step foot on the earth at that time, I think Paul would have mentioned it.

I didn't read those articles but the quotes seem to paint a rosy picture for the world when Christ returns with his saints to execute judgment [Jude 1].  If this event is the day of the LORD, which I believe it is, it won't be a rosy event.   And leading up to it will be the Great Tribulation [those words are in the Bible] which no one has addressed.

Maybe we should do a separate study on the day of the LORD.

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
--Mal 4


Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.

4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.

5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.

6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.

7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:

8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.

9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.

10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

--Joel 2

[Molly]

Dot No. 4.......Any serious Bible student should know that the flood in the days of Noah was a type of the coming Tribulation period. The Lord Himself verified this truth when He spoke of the

"great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no nor ever shall be," Matthew 24:21, and then in the same chapter the Lord also said, "But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be," 24:37. The Greek word translated as "coming" in verse 37 and again in verse 39 in this passage is the word, "parousia." This word is repeatedly connected with the rapture of New Covenant believers in the New Testament. It is not speaking of the Lord's return at the end of the Tribulation.

Not only is the word "parousia" associated with the word "rapture," so is "harpazo," as well as other concepts.  I can't say turn to such and such a chapter and verse to see what it says about "rapture" because none exist.  It is a traditional and extra-biblical category.  "Parousia," being a Greek word in the Scripture, is a category God uses to make His revelation known.  The same is true of "harpazo."  However, there is nothing that melds these two words into one category in the Scripture.  The word "parousia" means "to be (to exist,) to be present, presence."  It is not about something coming from someplace else.  At least forty times the word "parousia" is misleadingly translated as "coming" in the King James Version.

If you don't know what it is that is supposed to happen, are unaware of what we should be expecting, why would you think you'd know when it'll happen?

To put various categories, Scripture words or not, into one extra-biblical word is a working of deception.  It confuses several specific categories God set up as separate.  It erases the boundaries between particular words God used for other purposes.  It is what Paul the apostle called "blasphemy"  In the Greek this is a word that means, "To not use the proper harness, hence letting the horse (ie., word) run wild."

There is nothing about two 2nd comings in the Bible.  There is nothing there about any period of time between two 2nd comings or some period of time between a coming "for" His saints and a coming "with" His saints.  The phrase, "coming FOR His saints" also never occurs in the Scripture.   

Many interesting facts can be gathered about various things; but, when those things are not specified by actual words God chose to make His revelation known followers of the Truth do not believe them.  All the more so when those made up things replace what God has spoken.  Remember how the King was throwing a party (Feast of Tabernacles) and Vashti not only would not come to it to be seen, to be manifested, she also created her own party (the Rapture) instead.

Molly,

You didn't respond to this preceding that I wrote on the 28th.  I have seen people enthused, both joyously and with rage, yet they aren't in the truth.  Their passion is after a deception.  It is important to see and judge within ourselves whether we are operating out of religious obsession or spiritual quickening.  Often, in seeking to correct someone called a Pastor, they have reacted with red face, veins-a-poppin', spit-a-flyin', hollerin', bellowin', and sometimes getting ushers or even the police to haul me out when I would walk out under my own power if they'd've just asked.  I did nothing but try to speak with the Pastor about matters in Scripture semi-privately after the meeting was over.  They don't seem able to see themselves.  They're blind to the carnal fit they had, some even thinking it was of God.  I speak this way because I recognize you are very energized over this topic.

To me one of the ground rules for a discussion of things of God is to confine ourselves to the vocabulary God chose to use.  As I also explained above, this is to not to use an extra- and non-biblical word for a category of doctrine.  It's done with pasting the English "hell" over several Greek words and adding to the mix the lake of fire, which they don't call hell.  Other ingredients are Pagan myths and traditions of men.  The result is not Good doctrine.  It is not Biblical truth.  I say you're doing the same with the word, "Rapture."  How can I respect what you say when you don't respect what God says enough to keep His word.  Instead you throw it out to create this nonbiblical category using the terminology of fairly recent traditions of men.

Would you explain to me what you find wrong with what I'm pleading for here in this post?

Lest you accuse me of not addressing you again, I will address you one more time.  You are projecting a lot of stuff on me that is a result of your past experiences with church people.  I am not going to call the police and have you put in jail for your views.  Neither do I take kindly to being accused of blasphemy which you seem to have done twice now.  I overlooked it the first time.  But, I am merely doing what you and everyone else is doing, looking to understand the scripture.  If your understanding is different, you can state that without beating me over the head with false accusations and name calling.