Souls Under the Altar

[dajomaco]

And yet I show you a more perfect way.

Yes WW I agree, we do make our own doctrines(houses).  It is often much better then following the erroneous doctrines of the experts who are sure that they are correct, and yet miss the mark.

It has been a good discussion though.  Glad you posted it.

:thumbsup:

Only the house Jesus is building will be according to the specs.
All others will fail. But that doesn't mean we can't try. And every good try involves reading what the client wants...

Another perspective of your building analogy could be
from the point of view of the realtor.
The building isn't even started.

You are given an artist rendering of the building  and a list of some of the
most important aspects of the building .

Now your job is to go out and promote the building.
Answer general questions and give information.
Tell people of the character of the builder so that they have a level of trust.

If they have very specific question (how many amps)How much power.
You tell them they will have to find out from the builder.
You can go with them and ask the builder or they can go themselves,
and ask the most detailed technical questions they want.

The list of details are so specific that even if I think I know them I don't give them out.
The builder just wants me to send them to him.

The builder always gives full commission.

[Tom]

Rose, I understand what you'e saying, and I don't want you to get upset again. But I think we are living souls given life and kept alive by spirit, the power of life, that comes from God and will return to God if we die before Christ calls us to meet him in the air. I think believers have holy spirit, which unbelievers don't have, but I don't believe unbelievers are "spiritually dead," just figuratively dead until they are literally dead.

  Hi Tom , not upset at all   Brother
  Figuratively  ," describing something symbolic " is fine   by me    let the dead bury to dead    , you come follow Me ,Jesus says  :thumbsup:

  I don't believe I even used that either  , did I ?   " spiritually dead" I mean ...........Eph 2  is what I was  using as an example   not E ph 1     sorry about that  :icon_flower:

  Eph 2 1 Also you -- being dead in the trespasses and the sins,


2 in which once ye did walk according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience,

3 among whom also we all did walk once in the desires of our flesh, doing the wishes of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath -- as also the others,


4 and God, being rich in kindness, because of His great love with which He loved us,


5 even being dead in the trespasses, did make us to live together with the Christ, (by grace ye are having been saved,)


6 and did raise [us] up together, and did seat [us] together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,

7 that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus,


8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,


9 not of works, that no one may boast;

10 for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk.

Right, you didn't say "spiritually dead." That was my #36 reply to #33 & #34, but it was quoted by you in your #38. I haven't been keeping up with the forum very well the last couple of days because I've been busy. It seems maybe my reply #46 was simply saying that your reference to "antichrist" is in scripture, but the "spiritually dead" that was mentioned earlier, not by you, is not which is what I was replying to when you quoted me. I'm sorry if this is confusing. Like I said, I haven't been able to keep up with the forum for a couple of days. I'll probably be busy again tomorrow too. I just didn't want the thing with the soul to cause confusion like it did last time. 

[Molly]

and I ironically the great supper of God     happens     to simultaneously   i do believe this is Babylon  falling  as promised 

Maybe,  but I doubt it because the a man could never be drafted for war in the 1st year of his marriage.

Destroying Babylon sounds like war.

Maybe is not man  ,    flesh and blood no not inherit    anything to do with the Holy union  covenant     Jesus come   to bring war and divisions   Matt 10 ;34 Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. ... I didn't come to bring peace but conflict  ..

Well the timing is in the God ordained feasts.
Feasts were announced with a certain combination of shofars, silver trumpets and blast patterns played on them. Those things have several nicknames like shout and blast. When reading Revelation the trumpets and shofars give timing. Note that trumpets and shofars are not the same. That's very important to know because they have distinctive meaning in God's plan/timing/salvation.

The feasts have many nicknames that existed long before Jesus was born. Jesus obviously isn't going to marry a dead bride. The trumpet/shofars of Revelation start with Jewish New year the last trump*.
The last trump is also known as the awakening blast. Resurrection of the bride. Shortly after the next feast is nicknamed the call of the Messiah. Just like millions Jewish grooms have 'called' their bride so the Messiah-Jesus-groom calls His bride elect. It's getting a bit to complex after that to keep anyone interested so I just say all those things point toward a marriage supper long before Babylon falls.
If you closely follow all the events you will also notice rapture is just another manmade doctrine because in the whole book of Revelation we read about saints being oppressed and killed (rivers, ships, souls under the alter), etc. That won't happen if they were transported to heaven just before Jacob's trouble tribulation begins.

The use of the feasts always was to show God's plan. Harvest feasts....
They pointed the suffering-servant-Jesus of 2000 years ago. But they also point to king-Jesus of Revelation. It's quite simple: Every Revelation interpretation not aligning with the feasts is false doctrine.


*= The Last Trump isn't last Trump (of Revelation) at all.
Before the Jewish New year there was a whole month of 'preparing/calling'. Each and every day of that month a trumpet was sounded. 30 days in a row. That ended when the month ended at New year. The last trump is the last trump of that series.
So the Last Trump isn't the end at all. It's when the groom get's really active and resurrects His bride which is just the beginning of things.

:2c:

Agree on the last trump.  I would be interested in hearing more of what you said would not keep anyone interested.  I'm very interested.

Don't forget there are two classes of virgins--the wise and the foolish virgins.  The foolish virgins do not have oil for their lamps, so when the groom comes, they are not ready and the door is shut in their faces.   That is half who will not be raptured.  They are the ones who will be around during the time of Jacob's trouble.


35 And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.

--Daniel 11


I haven't been able to find anything named 'the call of the Messiah.'   Is that the feast of Trumpets?

Many are called but few are chosen? 


Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."

--Lk 21:26



"to escape"

G1628
ἐκφεύγω
ekpheugō
ek-fyoo'-go
From G1537 and G5343; to flee out: - escape, flee.



9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,  10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"  11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,

--Rev 7


So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.  15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple.  And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 

--Rev 7

[dajomaco]

Rev. 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Who are these souls, why are they talking, and what do they mean?

A martyr (Greek: μάρτυς, mártys, "witness"; stem μάρτυρ-, mártyr-) is somebody who suffers persecution and death for advocating, renouncing, refusing to renounce, and/or refusing to advocate a belief or cause, usually a religious one. Most martyrs are considered holy or are respected by their followers, becoming a symbol of good leadership and heroism.

Martyr of the past; Christians who willing laid down their lives for the cause of Christ.

Martyr of today; Christian who reads the book of revelations
and figures out a way to keep their live.

[eaglesway]

Martyr of today; Christian who reads the book of revelations
and figures out a way to keep their live.

Sorry, don't get that. Could you expand? :o)

[micah7:9]

Martyr of today; Christian who reads the book of revelations
and figures out a way to keep their live.

Sorry, don't get that. Could you expand? :o)

I think he meant "lives." ?

[dajomaco]

Martyr of today; Christian who reads the book of revelations
and figures out a way to keep their live.

Sorry, don't get that. Could you expand? :o)

It was meant as a commentary on the book of revelations commentators.
One book asks us to have the courage to lay down our life.
The other Book once you figure out it's secret meaning will help you
avoid laying down your life.     

[joeteekay]

Rev. 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Who are these souls, why are they talking, and what do they mean?

Re: Souls Under the Altar
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2014, 06:57:18 AM »
Quote
I believe some would likely see this as mystical/"only having spiritual/symbolic meaning within the believer", etc...Others, do  you see these as literal martyrs, if so, what point in history..also, if truly/literally/completely "the dead know nothing", what's going on with these souls?  They certainly seem to be aware..thoughts?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 07:00:27 AM by jabcat »

Even though a great deal of the book of revelation is figurative/symbolic, much of it can be seen as literal IMO.

The 7 seals are described in Rev. 6 and Rev. 8. In Rev. 6. the first 6 seals are opened.

The first 4 seals are described in some detail, not so for the 5th and 6th.

The first Four Seals in Rev. 6 can be linked to the events depicted by the Olivet Prophecy given by Jesus in Mat. 24. These first Four Seals rehearse how Satan obtained dominion over humanity and how he retains that usurped authority. The activity of the four horsemen in the Olivet Prophecy picture the condition of what the world has become under Satan's domination and continues since the first sin in the Garden.

First seal - DECEPTION- white horse - Rev. 6:2
Second seal - DIVISION- red horse - Rev. 6:3-4
Third seal - DESTRUCTION- black horse - Rev. 6:5
Fourth seal - DEATH- pale  (green) horse - Rev. 6:7-8

In Rev. 8 the seventh seal is opened, and thereafter we are shown the unrolling of the seventh seal, the seven trumpet plagues, seven bowl plagues and the seven last plagues which constitute almost all of the rest of the book of Revelation.

The fifth seal is the one that Jabcat used in asking our thoughts on those 3 verses in his first and second post.

The fifth seal has but 3 verses  - 9, 10 and 11.  Very little information is given to us about this fifth seal or its duration other than saying "they should rest a little while longer", suggesting the time is short for the unveiling of the final seals.  We are at or near that point in time IMO.

From YLT:

Rev. 6:9  And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony that they held,

About the souls that were slain-  - I agree with Laz and Micah with Laz  (Post#3)  and  Micah (Post#7) that these souls are in their graves. This is similar to what God stated to Cain about the blood of Abel. The point is made that the "souls under the altar" are composed only of the Elect who had been martyred.  There are others who are dead in Christ but were not martyred.  Since the dead are in a state of unconsciousness (ECC 9:5; PSA 146:4) until the time of their resurrection, these saints cannot literally be alive. They "live" only in the vision in order to relay information regarding the passage of time and God's direct intervention at a pivotal point in God's plan.  It is also interesting that we are told they are UNDER (base of?) the altar

Rev. 6:10  and they were crying with a great voice, saying, `Till when, O Master, the Holy and the True, dost Thou not judge and take vengeance of our blood from those dwelling upon the land?'

Since the prayers of the saints are symbolized by incense in scripture, the altar where John saw martyred saints would most logically be the heavenly counterpart of the altar of incense. Crying out to God is like an emotional appeal to God in prayer (Heb. 5:7).

Exo_37:25  And he made the incense altar of craptim wood: the length of it was a cubit, and the breadth of it a cubit; it was foursquare; and two cubits was the height of it; the horns thereof were of the same.

Exo_39:38  And the golden altar, and the anointing oil, and the sweet incense, and the hanging for the tabernacle door,

Rev_8:3  And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

UPON the altar not UNDER (base of?) the altar

God will judge the world and take vengeance when the 8th seal is opened.  The trumpets initiate the wrath of God on the earth and avenge the saints.

Rev 6:11   and there was given to each one white robes, and it was said to them that they may rest themselves yet a little time, till may be fulfilled also their fellow-servants and their brethren, who are about to be killed—even as they.

White robes symbolizing righteousness:

Rev_19:8  And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Rev_7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

They were to rest (sleep) until the time of the first resurrection.  There is yet to come a martyrdom of the Elect before the first resurrection.  That may be in progress now in small degree but will come on a larger scale before the wrath of God is unleashed at the opening of the seventh seal.  Vengeance is from God.

I know there is more depth of spiritual meaning than in this post regarding the 5th seal.

But like Molly in her post #4, I see a literal meaning.  But I recognize the metaphorical/symbolic aspects as well.  Like -  is a martyr a physical martyr or a spiritual martyr?  Could be both!

And WW and rosered in their posts delve into the more spiritual aspects.  I continue to learn and do more of that.  I seek to gain more of a Hebraic perspective also.  I value everyone's post, because  we all bring a unique perspective to think on.  "All testifying of the truth  bits and pieces of the   TRUTH setting us free "as rosered said.

[Tom]

I also think there's literal and figurative language in Revelation, but I'm wondering what you mean by "is a martyr a physical martyr or a spiritual martyr?"

[joeteekay]

Hi Tom,

Martyrdom. I believe it is dying physically for professing faith in Christ. That to me is a martyr.

I was using WW alternate view on this in his post#26.

:Peace2:

[eaglesway]

I wonder if those who have been imprisoned, tortured, banished, had their children taken from them etc.count also as martyrs.

[Tom]

Hi Tom,

Martyrdom. I believe it is dying physically for professing faith in Christ. That to me is a martyr.

I was using WW alternate view on this in his post#26.

:Peace2:

I agree with you. I think others who suffer for the faith are noble souls, but I wouldn't call them martyrs.

[WhiteWings]

Kinda like me and the living soul in Genesis huh? I mean you always go back the Hebrew wedding. :dsunny:

Yes. Putting a lot of value in a certain verse/chapter/concept etc greatly shapes the way other verses are understood. If that makes the rest of the Bible easier to understand it's  a good thing. But if certain view 'causes problems at many other places in the Bible it might be a signal to review that view.
Every verse/concept needs at least one witness. The Bible doesn't contradict itself. If verse/concept has no witnesses and/or contradicts other Scripture there is a problem that needs to be solved. That problem can only be solved by changing the interpretation of conflicting verses/concepts.

[WhiteWings]

About the souls that were slain-  - I agree with Laz and Micah with Laz  (Post#3)  and  Micah (Post#7) that these souls are in their graves. .......
until the time of their resurrection, these saints cannot literally be alive. They "live" only in the vision in order to relay information regarding the passage of time and God's direct intervention at a pivotal point in God's plan.

I think that depends on what the vision really was. You are right that it's a future event (using the date the vision was giving as 'now'). But that doesn't mean the people John saw weren't really alive. Maybe his vision was just looking forward, or maybe John was transported through time? Likely/possible some of the martyrs under the altar weren't even born yet when John received his vision. So those souls weren't in their graves (at that time).
John even saw himself in Rev 4:4 because the 24 elders are the 12 original tribal elders and the 12 kingdom elders.

Since the prayers of the saints are symbolized by incense in scripture, the altar where John saw martyred saints would most logically be the heavenly counterpart of the altar of incense. Crying out to God is like an emotional appeal to God in prayer (Heb. 5:7).

Only if the saints are priests that would be possible. Still I think they were below the altar of Sacrifice. That also had smoke rising up. This altar has 3 heaps of coals with their own function. Some burned as long as the Temple stood and portion of that heap was carried to the golden altar of incense which was tiny compared to the other altar. It was during the 30 minutes of silence, life coals were taken from the brazen altar and put on the golden Altar.

Rev_7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Just want to say this verse must be a fly in the face with their only 5% saved doctrine. The verse doesn't mention numbers but 'no one could number' sounds like a vast quantity to me.

But like Molly in her post #4, I see a literal meaning.

The word literal keeps popping up since I joined this forum. I always had the feeling not everybody has the same definition of literal.
I think I'm among the literal group but I don't expect to see dragons with 10 heads, horses with scorpion tails etc.

A simple no Biblical example of how literal my literal is. "The angry eagle casts fire on the beast of Babylon"
My sort of literal interpretation would be" America which has the eagle as their nation symbols bombs Saddam Houssain who ruled Iraq which was the center of the Babylonian empire".

Literal events but explained in symbolic terms. But it's very important those symbols must defined by the Bible/God itself. Otherwise a zillion false doctrines emerge.

Note: by the above I'm not dismissing any spiritual meaning. In fact I'm 100% sure there is one. It's even the most important. But without the literal meaning there is no witness. The result will be false literal and spiritual doctrines.
:2c:

[Molly]

I believe all the Saints are priests.  They are both king and priest, like their Lord.  This priesthood is the new priesthood, after the order of Melchizedek.   It is stated in the OT and confirmed in the NT.



5'Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine; 6and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel."

--Ex 19



1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.



A royal priesthood is a new order of priesthood that is both king and priest.   This priesthood is based on an indestructible life.  There is of necessity, therefore,  a change in the law as regards the priesthood.


Need for a New Priesthood

11 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron?  12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.  13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood.  15 And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest  16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life. 

--Heb 7



This priesthood by necessity requires an internal change to the priest, rather than an external human acknowledgment of position.


: "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—  9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.  10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.  11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.  12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."

--Heb 8



Jesus grants us this priesthood through belief in him.


"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

--John 5:21


John 6:47
Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.


John 6:58
This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."


This is one of the most basic teachings of the Christian church.


As we move into  Thanksgiving day [which remembers the celebration of the feast of Tabernacles by the pilgrims after their first year in what they considered to be the 'promised land,]'  here is a reminder that the sacrifice that God requires from his priests is a sacrifice of joy and thanksgiving.


5For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.

6And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the LORD.

--Psalm 27


5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

--Rev 1




Then another remark, to finish up with, shall be, we have a divine service to perform; and as I want you all, this morning, to turn this chapel into one great altar—as I want to make you all working priests, and this the temple for sacrifice—look earnestly at your service. You are all priests, because you love his dear name and have a great sacrifice to perform; not a propitiation for your sins, for that has been once offered, but a sacrifice this day of holy thanksgiving. Oh! how sweet in God's ear is the prayer of his people! That is the sacrifice that he accepts; and when their holy hymn swells upwards towards the sky, how pleasant it is in his ears; because then he can say, "My hosts of priests are sacrificing praise."

--C. H. Spurgeon

[eaglesway]

Wonderful post!

[Seth]

A simple no Biblical example of how literal my literal is. "The angry eagle casts fire on the beast of Babylon"
My sort of literal interpretation would be" America which has the eagle as their nation symbols bombs Saddam Houssain who ruled Iraq which was the center of the Babylonian empire".

To me, that would make the eagle, fire and beast symbolic rather than literal, because they are figures, by definition making the language figurative. It seems to me that a literal take would be than an actual eagle will cast actual fire onto an actual beast which is of Babylon. I always thought literal meant non-symbolic. In fact I knew someone that took Revelation literally meaning he thought that all those images were literally real, and when I suggested they were symbolic, he told me we need to be careful about making the scriptures symbolic because it's dangerous. Go figure.....   :winkgrin:

Whenever ETers say they take the "hell" fire scriptures literally, they mean there is actual fire, not that the fire represents something else. Whenever someone suggests it's symbolic, they tend to get ruffled by that. I think a lot of people equate "outward" with "literal," which I don't. I think whether it applies inwardly or outwardly, if it is a figure, and not actual, then to me that makes it figurative. That's just how I gave always seen it, though I am interested in other ideas, because I don't like when terminology blocks understanding. As long as I know what someone means, I feel like I can communicate better with them.

[rosered]

The word literal keeps popping up since I joined this forum. I always had the feeling not everybody has the same definition of literal.
I think I'm among the literal group but I don't expect to see dragons with 10 heads, horses with scorpion tails etc.

A simple no Biblical example of how literal my literal is. "The angry eagle casts fire on the beast of Babylon"
My sort of literal interpretation would be" America which has the eagle as their nation symbols bombs Saddam Houssain who ruled Iraq which was the center of the Babylonian empire".

Literal events but explained in symbolic terms. But it's very important those symbols must defined by the Bible/God itself. Otherwise a zillion false doctrines emerge.

Note: by the above I'm not dismissing any spiritual meaning. In fact I'm 100% sure there is one. It's even the most important. But without the literal meaning there is no witness. The result will be false literal and spiritual doctrines.

  Yes , exactly  WW !!  GEN 11    and we see this prophecy fulfilled to this very day   



11 At this time the whole world spoke one language, and everyone used the same words. 2 As people ·moved [migrated] ·from the east [or eastward; 2:8; 4:16], they found a plain in the land of ·Babylonia [L Shinar] and settled there.

3 They said to each other, "Let's make bricks and ·bake [burn; fire] them ·to make them hard [thoroughly; C in ancient times builders used mudbrick]." So they used bricks instead of stones, and ·tar [bitumen] instead of mortar. 4 Then they said to each other, "Let's build a city and a tower for ourselves, whose top will reach high into ·the sky [heaven; C a ziggurat or stepped pyramid at whose top was a temple thought to be in heaven]. We will ·become famous [L make for ourselves a reputation/name]. Then we will not be scattered over all the earth."

5 The Lord came down to see the city and the tower that the ·people [L sons of man] had built.

6 The Lord said, "Now, these people are ·united [L one], all speaking ·the same [L one] language. This is only the beginning of what they will do.

·They will be able to do anything they want [L Nothing they want to do will be impossible for them]. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language [L there] so they will not be able to understand each other."

8 So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they ·stopped [ceased] building the city.

9 The place is called Babel [C sounds like the Hebrew word for "confused"] since that is where the Lord confused the language of the whole world. So the Lord caused them to spread out from there over the whole world.

  But who took it up to build    the Holy City in the earth but Babylon/Her   and with the kings of the earth     ?   

  the Whole Bible testifies of this     faulty     foundation especially in Revelation  and the coming  down of Her  finally   and end , Gods wrath is complete in Her Rev 15 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and amazing, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is finished.

and those whom  build   on Jesus Christ being the chief corner Stone    set in the earth by God Himself , but She  comes down from Heaven 

[rosered]

A simple no Biblical example of how literal my literal is. "The angry eagle casts fire on the beast of Babylon"
My sort of literal interpretation would be" America which has the eagle as their nation symbols bombs Saddam Houssain who ruled Iraq which was the center of the Babylonian empire".

To me, that would make the eagle, fire and beast symbolic rather than literal, because they are figures, by definition making the language figurative. It seems to me that a literal take would be than an actual eagle will cast actual fire onto an actual beast which is of Babylon. I always thought literal meant non-symbolic.

Whenever ETers say they take the "hell" fire scriptures literally, they mean there is actual fire, not that the fire represents something else. I think a lot of people equate "outward" with "literal," which I don't. I think whether it applies inwardly or outwardly, if it is a figure, and not actual, then to me that makes it figurative. That's just how I gave always seen it, though I am interested in other ideas, because I don't like when terminology blocks understanding. As long as I know what someone means, I feel like I can communicate better with them.

  Maybe its history   as literal   with some spiritual   meanings as well    . both testify    of Gods   power   

  I have read the eagle was symbolic of Roman   rule   but the American  nation may have taken on this same    standard 

being Babylon was divided in to  3 parts        Rev 16 ;18And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty.


19The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God,

to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.

20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.



An aquila, or eagle, was a prominent symbol used in ancient Rome, especially as the standard of a Roman legion. A legionary known as an aquilifer, or eagle-bearer, carried this standard. Each legion carried one eagle.

The eagle was extremely important to the Roman military, beyond merely being a symbol of a legion.

A lost standard was considered an extremely grave occurrence,

and the Roman military often went to great lengths to both protect a standard and to recover it if lost;

for example, see the aftermath of the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest, where the Romans spent decades attempting to recover the lost standards of three legions.

[Seth]

Maybe its history   as literal   with some spiritual   meanings as well    . both testify    of Gods   power   

  I have read the eagle was symbolic of Roman   rule   but the American  nation may have taken on this same    standard 

To me, I would take that to be the difference between figurative-outward vs figurative-inward. To me, figurative means symbolic. Maybe that us why I have been somewhat confused when someone says they take Revelation literally, then explain symbolism, because I have a different understanding about what that means.

[Seth]

According to my own understandings of "literal" and "figurative," I'd wager to guess that most people on this forum and Christianity as a whole take Revelation as figurative language, where the variations in interpretation are outward vs inward.

[rosered]

Maybe its history   as literal   with some spiritual   meanings as well    . both testify    of Gods   power   

  I have read the eagle was symbolic of Roman   rule   but the American  nation may have taken on this same    standard 

To me, I would take that to be the difference between figurative-outward vs figurative-inward. To me, figurative means symbolic. Maybe that us why I have been somewhat confused when someone says they take Revelation literally, then explain symbolism, because I have a different understanding about what that means.

   Yes Seth symbolic !    is describing   things as to what they   are literally   
as to seas being many  tongues and nations and peoples for instance      !

According to my own understandings of "literal" and "figurative," I'd wager to guess that most people on this forum and Christianity as a whole take Revelation as figurative language, where the variations in interpretation are outward vs inward.

   Yes I too  see the inward  working of the Spirit    and truth      to those whom have an outward appearance    as if nothing has  changed !! 

I do see this as a truth !     the lining up  within and the outward chaos   of humanity as a whole       

[Seth]

Maybe its history   as literal   with some spiritual   meanings as well    . both testify    of Gods   power   

  I have read the eagle was symbolic of Roman   rule   but the American  nation may have taken on this same    standard 

To me, I would take that to be the difference between figurative-outward vs figurative-inward. To me, figurative means symbolic. Maybe that us why I have been somewhat confused when someone says they take Revelation literally, then explain symbolism, because I have a different understanding about what that means.

   Yes Seth symbolic !    is describing   things as to what they   are literally   
as to seas being many  tongues and nations and peoples for instance      !

According to my own understandings of "literal" and "figurative," I'd wager to guess that most people on this forum and Christianity as a whole take Revelation as figurative language, where the variations in interpretation are outward vs inward.

   Yes I too  see the inward  working of the Spirit    and truth      to those whom have an outward appearance    as if nothing has  changed !! 

I do see this as a truth !     the lining up  within and the outward chaos   of humanity as a whole       

:thumbsup:

I think inward things can be literal too. For example, if someone says, "I am sad," and is actually sad, then he is speaking literally. If someone says, "I am a fish at the bottom of a dark lake," then he is using figurative language to express the literal truth that he is sad. There is no actual fish or lake, but the literal thing is whatever the figures represent, either inward or outward.

[rosered]

Maybe its history   as literal   with some spiritual   meanings as well    . both testify    of Gods   power   

  I have read the eagle was symbolic of Roman   rule   but the American  nation may have taken on this same    standard 

To me, I would take that to be the difference between figurative-outward vs figurative-inward. To me, figurative means symbolic. Maybe that us why I have been somewhat confused when someone says they take Revelation literally, then explain symbolism, because I have a different understanding about what that means.

   Yes Seth symbolic !    is describing   things as to what they   are literally   
as to seas being many  tongues and nations and peoples for instance      !

According to my own understandings of "literal" and "figurative," I'd wager to guess that most people on this forum and Christianity as a whole take Revelation as figurative language, where the variations in interpretation are outward vs inward.

   Yes I too  see the inward  working of the Spirit    and truth      to those whom have an outward appearance    as if nothing has  changed !! 

I do see this as a truth !     the lining up  within and the outward chaos   of humanity as a whole       

:thumbsup:

I think inward things can be literal too. For example, if someone says, "I am sad," and is actually sad, then he is speaking literally. If someone says, "I am a fish at the bottom of a dark lake," then he is using figurative language to express the literal truth that he is sad. There is no actual fish or lake, but the literal thing is whatever the figures represent, either inward or outward.

  Exactly Seth !        we agree  :iagree:     knowing that Jesus spoke in parables comparing the things of heaven to those we could know as    literal    , being carnal in nature  would be able to understand    somewhat       to what He was comparing      the heavens to and the Father     
  it was the Spirit   of holiness given that they would be able to understand   what Jesus was saying     , because the Spirit knows all things
  of heaven and earth and even the unseen and  hidden things of the heart  of those who really Love Him !! :dsunny:

       1Corinth 2

Wisdom from the Spirit of God
...9but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM."

10For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.


11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God....

[Tom]

I think some things in Revelation seem to be "literal," and some seem to be "figurative." But I think it's important to remember it is one man's "vision" of the future just like the "vision" in Matthew 17:1-9. I believe Moses and Elijah are mortals waiting for Christ to rouse them from the dead, but they appeared alive in the vision just like the "souls under the altar" in Revelation.