Rev.13:8

[micah7:9]

Rev 13:8 All the inhabitants of the earth whose names have not from the foundation of the world been written in the slain Lamb's book of life, will worship it.
(Goodspeed)
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, `every one' whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain. (ASB 1901)
Rev 13:8 all that dwell upon the earth will worship him, whose names are not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the lamb, that was slain.
(Mace NT 1729)
Rev 13:8 And all those who inhabit on the earth will worship him, they whose name is not written in the book of life of the Lamb from the foundation of the world.
(Etheridge trans. 1849)

Do these translations make a difference as to the understanding that has been ministered from the KJV?

Rev 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Does this make a difference as to the KJV

[WhiteWings]

Christian Bible

Then everyone who is making a home on the earth, whose name hasn't been written in the Scroll of Life that belongs to the young Lamb who has been slaughtered since the foundation of the world, will worship it.

KJV reads the same. But the translation is odd. If you remove the s from names it sounds like only the beast in not in the book of life.

[micah7:9]

I was directing my question more to when the Lamb was slain.

[WhiteWings]

From the foundation of the world. All translations seem to agree on that.
Do you see something special/different in KJV?

[micah7:9]

Not the KJV but the others. They word it as.... the lamb was not slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 13:8 All the inhabitants of the earth whose names have not from the foundation of the world been written in the slain Lamb's book of life, will worship it.
(Goodspeed)

[Nathan]

If that's how it's being read, then I question the interpretations.  I believe what we see happen in the flesh only happens in this realm because it was already finished in the spirit realm.  Jesus lived and breathed from a finished works perspective.  Yet he had to come in the flesh to fulfill the whole process of redeeming man back to the Father.  But for me, everything was already completed in the spirit before the formation of the natural world took place at all.

[WhiteWings]

You are right.
Look here for a very literal tranlation.
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev13.pdf

imo KJV translated it correctly.

[micah7:9]

Thanks. Always read it that way but found these others and there are more to, just thought Id ask. :thumbsup:

[Beth]

Rev 13:8 All the inhabitants of the earth whose names have not from the foundation of the world been written in the slain Lamb's book of life, will worship it.
(Goodspeed)

This is interesting Micah, because I had once noted this as well.  I looked for a second witness to the lamb being slain from the foundation of the world, but could not find one, what I found, however, was a second witness to the names not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

Rev. 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Having said that, I do agree with Nathan and there is a second witness to that!

Hbr 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

[thinktank]

Christian Bible

Then everyone who is making a home on the earth, whose name hasn't been written in the Scroll of Life that belongs to the young Lamb who has been slaughtered since the foundation of the world, will worship it.

KJV reads the same. But the translation is odd. If you remove the s from names it sounds like only the beast in not in the book of life.

Rev 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose name are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world



I'm not seeing it white wings, it still says all if you remove the "s" as I have done above.

[WhiteWings]

Maybe you are right TT.
"whose name are" => "whose name is" => "the beast"
Also keep in mind the comma's are an invention of man. I'm not saying the comma's and/or translation are wrong.
We got 3 main parts: Those that are on earth. The beast. The one or ones not written in the book.
Does the book refers to the first or second part. Or both?
I just posted something I noticed at that time. That's all. Certainly no statement. More of a question/thought.

Read the original verse here: http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev13.pdf

[Nathan]

Christian Bible

Then everyone who is making a home on the earth, whose name hasn't been written in the Scroll of Life that belongs to the young Lamb who has been slaughtered since the foundation of the world, will worship it.

KJV reads the same. But the translation is odd. If you remove the s from names it sounds like only the beast in not in the book of life.

Rev 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose name are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world



I'm not seeing it white wings, it still says all if you remove the "s" as I have done above.

Not completely sure of the point you guys are aiming at here.  I think you're still looking at the foundation of the world portion of it??? :dontknow:

For me, the key piece of this is "all that dwell upon the earth".  These are not the ones walking in the spirit, but these are the ones walking according to the flesh.  They've become consumed by what they've been beholding.  As such, their identities (name = nature) don't reflect the nature of life.  It's just what carnality does to us.  It blots out our relationship with life.  Like a cloud blocks the sun, carnality blots out our nature of the Father's glory manifesting.

[Shadow]

I was directing my question more to when the Lamb was slain.

Rev 13:8 All the inhabitants of the earth whose names have not from the foundation of the world been written in the slain Lamb's book of life, will worship it.
(Goodspeed)
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, `every one' whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain. (ASB 1901)
Rev 13:8 all that dwell upon the earth will worship him, whose names are not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the lamb, that was slain.
(Mace NT 1729)
Rev 13:8 And all those who inhabit on the earth will worship him, they whose name is not written in the book of life of the Lamb from the foundation of the world.
(Etheridge trans. 1849)

Do these translations make a difference as to the understanding that has been ministered from the KJV?

Rev 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

To me it means that everything has been set in stone before the world was even created and we are just going through the motions that were predetermined beforehand

[Beth]

"To me it means that everything has been set in stone before the world was even created and we are just going through the motions that were predetermined beforehand"

:mshock: Can't agree with the idea that we are just actors playing our parts.  The fact that God knows all things b4 they occur, imo, does not equate to Him being responsible for every "motion."  I've always looked at predestination with the same perspective as understanding He was, He is and He shall be, thus, He has chosen, is choosing and shall choose.

[Molly]

19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

--1 Peter 1




Psalm 69:28 May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew 25:34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Revelation 3:5 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Revelation 17:8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.


Scofield Reference Notes

[2] world

Kosmos, Summary: In the sense of the present world-system, the ethically bad sense of the word, refers to the "order," "arrangement," under which Satan has organized the world of unbelieving mankind upon his cosmic principle of force, greed, selfishness, ambition, and pleasure. Mt 4:8,9 Jn 12:31 14:30 18:36 Eph 2:2 6:12 1Jn 2:15-17. This world-system is imposing and powerful with armies and fleets; is often outwardly religious, scientific, cultured, and elegant; but, seething with national and commercial rivalries and ambitions, is upheld in any real crisis only by armed force, and is dominated by Satanic principles





15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
--Gen 3



35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

--Mat 23

[Shadow]

Can't agree with the idea that we are just actors playing our parts.

I can't agree with you either

Revelation 17:8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

This proves that either your name is in the book of life or not (you are either saved or not), there is no in between here, and that that's the way it was planned before it all even came into existence

I'm sure that you can gather from my posts, that I'm one of those that considers them self as one whose name that has NOT been written in the book of life, that was the fate preplanned for me like the vast majority of mankind, that's why I've never felt the love of God or ever been sure of my salvation ever (it wasn't for lack of trying though, that I can promise you)

I'm certainly not a non-christian because I wanted it that way, I tried for many years to become one, now I know why it was impossible for me and why I've never succeeded, as I've never been one of the chosen anyway, it's a hard pill to swallow but I'm sure in time I'll learn to come to terms with it


I may not like it but I have to come to terms with it, trying to sugarcoats facts doesn't alter them, people may not like calvinism, but in it's own twisted way, it actually makes sense and comes a long way to explaining things

[thinktank]

Can't agree with the idea that we are just actors playing our parts.

I can't agree with you either

Revelation 17:8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

This proves that either your name is in the book of life or not (you are either saved or not), there is no in between here, and that that's the way it was planned before it all even came into existence

I'm sure that you can gather from my posts, that I'm one of those that considers them self as one whose name that has NOT been written in the book of life, that was the fate preplanned for me like the vast majority of mankind, that's why I've never felt the love of God or ever been sure of my salvation ever (it wasn't for lack of trying though, that I can promise you)

I'm certainly not a non-christian because I wanted it that way, I tried for many years to become one, now I know why it was impossible for me and why I've never succeeded, as I've never been one of the chosen anyway, it's a hard pill to swallow but I'm sure in time I'll learn to come to terms with it


I may not like it but I have to come to terms with it, trying to sugarcoats facts doesn't alter them, people may not like calvinism, but in it's own twisted way, it actually makes sense and comes a long way to explaining things

To me if God knows all things before hand, then he knew who would choose him and who would not. It's not him that chooses, but us that choose him. There are scriptures that say the opposite of this, but make sense in the context, being that God reaches out to all humanity and it is only he who can draw men to himself, in other words we don't decide one day, im going to love God, but rather he first comes to us, the whole world and draws all men to himself. But the whole world cannot currently be saved, due to the workings of the devil, the gospel has not even been preached in China and many countries, is God against the Chinese? Doubt it, but rather that the devil has blinded China with hardness of heart and communism that prevents the gospel from being preached there. From the days of John the baptist the kingdom of heaven suffers violence and the violent take it by force. The evil has tried his best to kill and destroy the church before it gets a foothold and despite various success, ultimately he will fail to prevent the gospel from being preached and today is evidence of the great work that bagan 2000 years ago. We are in a war and although victory has been secured, there will be casualties and much pain before victory is secured. Our weapon of warfare are prayer and spiritual weapons, it might seem prideful that we have to do set up gods kingdom but this is what God told us to do, to pray thy kingdom come upon the earth as it is in heaven, God needs us to set up his kingdom, I even have a scripture that proves without people God cannot do this.

[Beloved Servant]

"Today, Christianity in China is highly restricted, but tens of millions of Bibles are produced by a government-approved press, and registered Christian churches worship openly in most parts of the country. The first missionaries to China arrived in A.D. 635 and established at least 11 churches." 
www.gfa.org/countryprofiles/china



"The Gospel in China is a blog maintained by a missionary working in China's underground church movement. Stay tuned to learn about this young family's work, to be updated with prayer requests from the front lines, and to develop your own heart and plan for the largest nation on earth."   http://gospelinchina.wordpress.com

[peacemaker]

The Book of "the Life of Christ" is that to which we ALL belong, otherwise we would have no life, now.
In the beginning, YOU were created before the foundation of the world, as the Scriptures speak of:

"One Man; each and every one of us."

peacemaker

[LS]

This proves that either your name is in the book of life or not (you are either saved or not), there is no in between here, and that that's the way it was planned before it all even came into existence.

Hi Shadow ... my belief is that all names are in the book of life.  However, by our own choices or actions we can be "blotted out":

Exodus 32:33
The LORD replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book.

Psalm 69:28
May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.

Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

Also, in Romans we see that branches are cut off or grafted in.

Last week in my studies I read this passage from 1 Chron 28 and to me, this message is repeated from the beginning of the Bible to the end:

9 "And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.
10 Consider now, for the LORD has chosen you to build a temple as a sanctuary. Be strong and do the work."

Please don't give into despair or belief that you are somehow beyond God's reach, unchosen or unworthy.  It truly is His desire that all be saved.    :grouppray:

[LS]

I may not like it but I have to come to terms with it, trying to sugarcoats facts doesn't alter them, people may not like calvinism, but in it's own twisted way, it actually makes sense and comes a long way to explaining things

I really don't like to argue with what others believe ... I try to simply express my own beliefs and leave it to others to decide with the help of the Holy Spirit.

But the calvinist predestination belief makes me so angry - I have seen it rob people of all hope, thinking they are not chosen or predestined. 

Jesus is our Hope. God so loved the world that He sent His son ... not for "some" or a lucky few chosen ones, but for all.

Hold on to Hope, Shadow; don't be robbed of it.  Mother Teresa went through a period of darkness where she felt she didn't hear or see God, but she resolved to keep doing what she knew she should; to do the work in front of her and just trust He was there taking care of the rest.  I think those can be the times He teaches us to walk closest with Him, choosing to trust His presence even when we don't feel like it's there for us.

I am praying for you; persevere and choose Life, choose Hope.   :grouppray:

[Shadow]

You are missing the POINT LS, my name was either there or it wasn't BEFORE I or anyone even came into existence, I know you mean well, but IT DOESN"T CHANGE THE COLD HARD FACT, that the names were there before the world was started

This is the logical conclusion if UR isn't true and I don't believe it is, I can accept my predestined final destiny if it's eventual annihilation one day, my main beef was the concept of ET, as long as there is no such thing for anyone, it's fine, I only wish christianity was more honest and would come straight out and say that it isn't God's intention to save all, only an elect few, it would have saved me from 20 years of heartache

If all are not saved, then I'm not either, and as I don't believe all are saved, I have no other alternative other than apostasy, I'm not interested in acquiring salvation at the expense of anyone else

Ironic that something that initially sounded good,( I've always been an outcast and an accident anyway, I should never have been born), hey I'm going to heaven but those who hurt me won't, turned out to be my worst possible nightmare :dontknow:

[thinktank]

Those names worship the beast, but it doesn't say any were thrown into the lake of fire until after the millenium 1000 year peace.

So that means there is at least 1000 years between, the worshipping of the beast and the great white throne judgement. 1000 years where Christ rules,(raising the dead, healings must be commonplace) so to me that gives plenty of time to save the lost.

The nature of the great white throne judgement is very difficult to understand, but I do belive there is good evidence that there will be 1000 years in Earthly garden of Eden type paradise before, that judgment takes place.

[LS]

You are missing the POINT LS, my name was either there or it wasn't BEFORE I or anyone even came into existence, I know you mean well, but IT DOESN"T CHANGE THE COLD HARD FACT, that the names were there before the world was started

Please don't be angry with me for trying again ... but my point is, our names are written in a book, not in stone. They can be blotted out, yes.  The book can change because we write the book of our lives with God.   :HeartThrob:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Beth & Shadow...  :cloud9:

SHADOW:

"To me it means that everything has been set in stone before the world was even created and we are just going through the motions that were predetermined beforehand"

Though I agree with this, ...I see it in a slightly different way... Let me give example... (keeping in mind that WE are members of the Body of CHRIST):

EXAMPLE --  I have decided (foreordained) that I shall go to a HOCKEY game tonight... now this decision means that my entire person (due to being subject to my "head"), shall:

(1) get in my car and travel to the arena
(2) leave my car & walk to my seat
(3) watch the entire game
(4) return to my car and drive home...  

In this, are the members of my body just "going through motions"?  Or are they PART of the entire experience, LIVING it alongside, and WITH the HEAD?

BETH:

:mshock: Can't agree with the idea that we are just actors playing our parts.

That's fine... however...

Within my "EXAMPLE" above...

(1) are my EYES, just "actors" which view the route to the game, and then watch it?  

(2) are my HANDS, just "actors" which negotiate the car?

(3) are my FEET, just "actors" which carry my body to its seat, and later, "act" their way back to the car?

On the contrary... they are PIVOTAL, NECESSARY and LIVING PARTICIPANTS within the entire experience which was "FOREORDAINED" by my "HEAD"...  :dontknow:

The fact that God knows all things b4 they occur, imo, does not equate to Him being responsible for every "motion."

You are welcome to embrace what you desire... but REASON, LOGIC, as well as TRUTH, dictate otherwise:

GOD DECLARED the End from the Beginning, those things which "are NOT YET DONE" (which is EVERYTHING) -- Isaiah 46:10-11 --

Do you think that it is possible that ANYTHING can OCCUR outside of this DECLARATION?  And if so... then the "DECLARATION" of YHVH has contained fallacy, or UNTRUTH within any (even the smallest) portion which in fact is VARIANT and does NOT manifest according to His "DECLARATION"... which also asserts that the WORD contains LIES...

That WE are LIVING MEMBERS of the BODY of CHRIST, means that we DO as the HEAD DECLARES we do... otherwise, the HEAD is NOT in control of the BODY, and we are NOT SUBJECT to it.  :mnah:

I've always looked at predestination with the same perspective as understanding He was, He is and He shall be, thus, He has chosen, is choosing and shall choose.

I don't mean any harm Beth... but this observation of -- "was, is, shall be" -- is NOT how He IS... CHRIST in the NT -- John 8:58 -- as well as YHVH in the OT, -- Ex 3:14 -- noted themselves in PRESENT ONLY, for in the PRESENT ONLY does LIFE exist.

That it is noted in Heb 13:8 that CHRIST is the same "yesterday, today, and forever" is for our benefit, for being FINITE (bound to, as well as subject to time, and the physical) we cannot KNOW the parameters of the ETERNAL, which are without change and which are without BEGINNING as well as END.

Something that REMAINS the SAME, is UNCHANGING, which also means that it is ALWAYS MANIFEST as it ...IS...

GOD is not subject to PHYSICAL or TIME parameters... He ...IS... in ALL "PLACES" (He does not "go" anywhere) -- Psalm 139:8 -- in ALL "TIMES"... (as noted above)... It is UNECESSARY for Him to "have chosen, choose, and to choose"... for ANYTHING and EVERYTHING which is EMERGENT from HIM, are ETERNAL and permanent.   Anything and Everything which emerges from HIM, already IS...

This is the PRINCIPLE of "NOW"...

He does not "choose" to "do" anything... It is already DONE from ETERNAL perspective.  FINITES are bound to TIME, and therefore the activities which we view and are "involved in", are subject to their manifestation, as occuring at a given point in "TIME"...

Though this is a VERY hard principle for "FINITES" to grasp, it is not impossible.  

It takes FAITH to KNOW in your HEART, that everything you SEE, HEAR, and DO... has always been in the Heart of YHVH God... and that NOTHING that appears (for instance, your "birth"), actually "BEGAN" here... Though its "manifestation" within the FINITE had a "beginning"... it already IS in the Heart of YHVH God forever.

I for one admit that I cannot comprehend how --

(1) God has NO BEGINNING!
(2) God is EVERYWHERE at once!
(3) God KNOWS everything!
(4) God is COMPLETE in every possible way!

These (and others) are mind boggling attributes, which are NOT within my perspective, nor do they relate to my INCOMPLETE, CONFINED and BEGINNING/END existence.  :dontknow:

That I do not have the capability to behold these things does not preclude that they are indeed aspects of our Creator...  :mblush:

I hope I have worded this with clarity.  If you have any questions or something was unclear, let me know and I'll try to reword what I have said.  :friendstu:

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9: