Tentmaker Forum

Rev 13:8 All the inhabitants of the earth whose names have not from the foundation of the world been written in the slain Lamb's book of life, will worship it.
(Goodspeed)
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, `every one' whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain. (ASB 1901)
Rev 13:8 all that dwell upon the earth will worship him, whose names are not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the lamb, that was slain.
(Mace NT 1729)
Rev 13:8 And all those who inhabit on the earth will worship him, they whose name is not written in the book of life of the Lamb from the foundation of the world.
(Etheridge trans. 1849)

Do these translations make a difference as to the understanding that has been ministered from the KJV?

Rev 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Does this make a difference as to the KJV

Christian Bible

Then everyone who is making a home on the earth, whose name hasn't been written in the Scroll of Life that belongs to the young Lamb who has been slaughtered since the foundation of the world, will worship it.

KJV reads the same. But the translation is odd. If you remove the s from names it sounds like only the beast in not in the book of life.

I was directing my question more to when the Lamb was slain.

From the foundation of the world. All translations seem to agree on that.
Do you see something special/different in KJV?

Not the KJV but the others. They word it as.... the lamb was not slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 13:8 All the inhabitants of the earth whose names have not from the foundation of the world been written in the slain Lamb's book of life, will worship it.
(Goodspeed)

If that's how it's being read, then I question the interpretations.  I believe what we see happen in the flesh only happens in this realm because it was already finished in the spirit realm.  Jesus lived and breathed from a finished works perspective.  Yet he had to come in the flesh to fulfill the whole process of redeeming man back to the Father.  But for me, everything was already completed in the spirit before the formation of the natural world took place at all.

You are right.
Look here for a very literal tranlation.
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev13.pdf

imo KJV translated it correctly.

Thanks. Always read it that way but found these others and there are more to, just thought Id ask. :thumbsup:

Rev 13:8 All the inhabitants of the earth whose names have not from the foundation of the world been written in the slain Lamb's book of life, will worship it.
(Goodspeed)

This is interesting Micah, because I had once noted this as well.  I looked for a second witness to the lamb being slain from the foundation of the world, but could not find one, what I found, however, was a second witness to the names not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

Rev. 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Having said that, I do agree with Nathan and there is a second witness to that!

Hbr 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 01, 2010, 07:34:19 PM
Christian Bible

Then everyone who is making a home on the earth, whose name hasn't been written in the Scroll of Life that belongs to the young Lamb who has been slaughtered since the foundation of the world, will worship it.

KJV reads the same. But the translation is odd. If you remove the s from names it sounds like only the beast in not in the book of life.

Rev 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose name are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world



I'm not seeing it white wings, it still says all if you remove the "s" as I have done above.

Maybe you are right TT.
"whose name are" => "whose name is" => "the beast"
Also keep in mind the comma's are an invention of man. I'm not saying the comma's and/or translation are wrong.
We got 3 main parts: Those that are on earth. The beast. The one or ones not written in the book.
Does the book refers to the first or second part. Or both?
I just posted something I noticed at that time. That's all. Certainly no statement. More of a question/thought.

Read the original verse here: http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev13.pdf

Quote from: thinktank on July 21, 2010, 08:12:34 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 01, 2010, 07:34:19 PM
Christian Bible

Then everyone who is making a home on the earth, whose name hasn't been written in the Scroll of Life that belongs to the young Lamb who has been slaughtered since the foundation of the world, will worship it.

KJV reads the same. But the translation is odd. If you remove the s from names it sounds like only the beast in not in the book of life.

Rev 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose name are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world



I'm not seeing it white wings, it still says all if you remove the "s" as I have done above.

Not completely sure of the point you guys are aiming at here.  I think you're still looking at the foundation of the world portion of it??? :dontknow:

For me, the key piece of this is "all that dwell upon the earth".  These are not the ones walking in the spirit, but these are the ones walking according to the flesh.  They've become consumed by what they've been beholding.  As such, their identities (name = nature) don't reflect the nature of life.  It's just what carnality does to us.  It blots out our relationship with life.  Like a cloud blocks the sun, carnality blots out our nature of the Father's glory manifesting.

Quote from: micah7:9 on July 01, 2010, 08:18:54 PM
I was directing my question more to when the Lamb was slain.

QuoteRev 13:8 All the inhabitants of the earth whose names have not from the foundation of the world been written in the slain Lamb's book of life, will worship it.
(Goodspeed)
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, `every one' whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain. (ASB 1901)
Rev 13:8 all that dwell upon the earth will worship him, whose names are not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the lamb, that was slain.
(Mace NT 1729)
Rev 13:8 And all those who inhabit on the earth will worship him, they whose name is not written in the book of life of the Lamb from the foundation of the world.
(Etheridge trans. 1849)

Do these translations make a difference as to the understanding that has been ministered from the KJV?

Rev 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

To me it means that everything has been set in stone before the world was even created and we are just going through the motions that were predetermined beforehand

"To me it means that everything has been set in stone before the world was even created and we are just going through the motions that were predetermined beforehand"

:mshock: Can't agree with the idea that we are just actors playing our parts.  The fact that God knows all things b4 they occur, imo, does not equate to Him being responsible for every "motion."  I've always looked at predestination with the same perspective as understanding He was, He is and He shall be, thus, He has chosen, is choosing and shall choose.

19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

--1 Peter 1




Psalm 69:28 May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.
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Matthew 25:34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
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Revelation 3:5 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
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Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.


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Revelation 17:8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.


Scofield Reference Notes

[2] world

Kosmos, Summary: In the sense of the present world-system, the ethically bad sense of the word, refers to the "order," "arrangement," under which Satan has organized the world of unbelieving mankind upon his cosmic principle of force, greed, selfishness, ambition, and pleasure. Mt 4:8,9 Jn 12:31 14:30 18:36 Eph 2:2 6:12 1Jn 2:15-17. This world-system is imposing and powerful with armies and fleets; is often outwardly religious, scientific, cultured, and elegant; but, seething with national and commercial rivalries and ambitions, is upheld in any real crisis only by armed force, and is dominated by Satanic principles





15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
--Gen 3



35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

--Mat 23

QuoteCan't agree with the idea that we are just actors playing our parts.

I can't agree with you either

QuoteRevelation 17:8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

This proves that either your name is in the book of life or not (you are either saved or not), there is no in between here, and that that's the way it was planned before it all even came into existence

I'm sure that you can gather from my posts, that I'm one of those that considers them self as one whose name that has NOT been written in the book of life, that was the fate preplanned for me like the vast majority of mankind, that's why I've never felt the love of God or ever been sure of my salvation ever (it wasn't for lack of trying though, that I can promise you)

I'm certainly not a non-christian because I wanted it that way, I tried for many years to become one, now I know why it was impossible for me and why I've never succeeded, as I've never been one of the chosen anyway, it's a hard pill to swallow but I'm sure in time I'll learn to come to terms with it


I may not like it but I have to come to terms with it, trying to sugarcoats facts doesn't alter them, people may not like calvinism, but in it's own twisted way, it actually makes sense and comes a long way to explaining things

Quote from: Shadow on July 25, 2010, 07:15:36 PM

QuoteCan't agree with the idea that we are just actors playing our parts.

I can't agree with you either

QuoteRevelation 17:8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

This proves that either your name is in the book of life or not (you are either saved or not), there is no in between here, and that that's the way it was planned before it all even came into existence

I'm sure that you can gather from my posts, that I'm one of those that considers them self as one whose name that has NOT been written in the book of life, that was the fate preplanned for me like the vast majority of mankind, that's why I've never felt the love of God or ever been sure of my salvation ever (it wasn't for lack of trying though, that I can promise you)

I'm certainly not a non-christian because I wanted it that way, I tried for many years to become one, now I know why it was impossible for me and why I've never succeeded, as I've never been one of the chosen anyway, it's a hard pill to swallow but I'm sure in time I'll learn to come to terms with it


I may not like it but I have to come to terms with it, trying to sugarcoats facts doesn't alter them, people may not like calvinism, but in it's own twisted way, it actually makes sense and comes a long way to explaining things

To me if God knows all things before hand, then he knew who would choose him and who would not. It's not him that chooses, but us that choose him. There are scriptures that say the opposite of this, but make sense in the context, being that God reaches out to all humanity and it is only he who can draw men to himself, in other words we don't decide one day, im going to love God, but rather he first comes to us, the whole world and draws all men to himself. But the whole world cannot currently be saved, due to the workings of the devil, the gospel has not even been preached in China and many countries, is God against the Chinese? Doubt it, but rather that the devil has blinded China with hardness of heart and communism that prevents the gospel from being preached there. From the days of John the baptist the kingdom of heaven suffers violence and the violent take it by force. The evil has tried his best to kill and destroy the church before it gets a foothold and despite various success, ultimately he will fail to prevent the gospel from being preached and today is evidence of the great work that bagan 2000 years ago. We are in a war and although victory has been secured, there will be casualties and much pain before victory is secured. Our weapon of warfare are prayer and spiritual weapons, it might seem prideful that we have to do set up gods kingdom but this is what God told us to do, to pray thy kingdom come upon the earth as it is in heaven, God needs us to set up his kingdom, I even have a scripture that proves without people God cannot do this.

"Today, Christianity in China is highly restricted, but tens of millions of Bibles are produced by a government-approved press, and registered Christian churches worship openly in most parts of the country. The first missionaries to China arrived in A.D. 635 and established at least 11 churches." 
www.gfa.org/countryprofiles/china



"The Gospel in China is a blog maintained by a missionary working in China's underground church movement. Stay tuned to learn about this young family's work, to be updated with prayer requests from the front lines, and to develop your own heart and plan for the largest nation on earth."   http://gospelinchina.wordpress.com

The Book of "the Life of Christ" is that to which we ALL belong, otherwise we would have no life, now.
In the beginning, YOU were created before the foundation of the world, as the Scriptures speak of:

"One Man; each and every one of us."

peacemaker

Quote from: Shadow on July 25, 2010, 07:15:36 PM
This proves that either your name is in the book of life or not (you are either saved or not), there is no in between here, and that that's the way it was planned before it all even came into existence.

Hi Shadow ... my belief is that all names are in the book of life.  However, by our own choices or actions we can be "blotted out":

Exodus 32:33
The LORD replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book.

Psalm 69:28
May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.

Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

Also, in Romans we see that branches are cut off or grafted in.

Last week in my studies I read this passage from 1 Chron 28 and to me, this message is repeated from the beginning of the Bible to the end:

9 "And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.
10 Consider now, for the LORD has chosen you to build a temple as a sanctuary. Be strong and do the work."

Please don't give into despair or belief that you are somehow beyond God's reach, unchosen or unworthy.  It truly is His desire that all be saved.    :grouppray:

Quote from: Shadow on July 25, 2010, 07:15:36 PM
I may not like it but I have to come to terms with it, trying to sugarcoats facts doesn't alter them, people may not like calvinism, but in it's own twisted way, it actually makes sense and comes a long way to explaining things

I really don't like to argue with what others believe ... I try to simply express my own beliefs and leave it to others to decide with the help of the Holy Spirit.

But the calvinist predestination belief makes me so angry - I have seen it rob people of all hope, thinking they are not chosen or predestined. 

Jesus is our Hope. God so loved the world that He sent His son ... not for "some" or a lucky few chosen ones, but for all.

Hold on to Hope, Shadow; don't be robbed of it.  Mother Teresa went through a period of darkness where she felt she didn't hear or see God, but she resolved to keep doing what she knew she should; to do the work in front of her and just trust He was there taking care of the rest.  I think those can be the times He teaches us to walk closest with Him, choosing to trust His presence even when we don't feel like it's there for us.

I am praying for you; persevere and choose Life, choose Hope.   :grouppray:

You are missing the POINT LS, my name was either there or it wasn't BEFORE I or anyone even came into existence, I know you mean well, but IT DOESN"T CHANGE THE COLD HARD FACT, that the names were there before the world was started

This is the logical conclusion if UR isn't true and I don't believe it is, I can accept my predestined final destiny if it's eventual annihilation one day, my main beef was the concept of ET, as long as there is no such thing for anyone, it's fine, I only wish christianity was more honest and would come straight out and say that it isn't God's intention to save all, only an elect few, it would have saved me from 20 years of heartache

If all are not saved, then I'm not either, and as I don't believe all are saved, I have no other alternative other than apostasy, I'm not interested in acquiring salvation at the expense of anyone else

Ironic that something that initially sounded good,( I've always been an outcast and an accident anyway, I should never have been born), hey I'm going to heaven but those who hurt me won't, turned out to be my worst possible nightmare :dontknow:

Those names worship the beast, but it doesn't say any were thrown into the lake of fire until after the millenium 1000 year peace.

So that means there is at least 1000 years between, the worshipping of the beast and the great white throne judgement. 1000 years where Christ rules,(raising the dead, healings must be commonplace) so to me that gives plenty of time to save the lost.

The nature of the great white throne judgement is very difficult to understand, but I do belive there is good evidence that there will be 1000 years in Earthly garden of Eden type paradise before, that judgment takes place.

Quote from: Shadow on July 25, 2010, 10:13:13 PM
You are missing the POINT LS, my name was either there or it wasn't BEFORE I or anyone even came into existence, I know you mean well, but IT DOESN"T CHANGE THE COLD HARD FACT, that the names were there before the world was started

Please don't be angry with me for trying again ... but my point is, our names are written in a book, not in stone. They can be blotted out, yes.  The book can change because we write the book of our lives with God.   :HeartThrob:

willieH: Hi Beth & Shadow...  :cloud9:

SHADOW:

Quote from: Shadow"To me it means that everything has been set in stone before the world was even created and we are just going through the motions that were predetermined beforehand"

Though I agree with this, ...I see it in a slightly different way... Let me give example... (keeping in mind that WE are members of the Body of CHRIST):

EXAMPLE --  I have decided (foreordained) that I shall go to a HOCKEY game tonight... now this decision means that my entire person (due to being subject to my "head"), shall:

(1) get in my car and travel to the arena
(2) leave my car & walk to my seat
(3) watch the entire game
(4) return to my car and drive home...  

In this, are the members of my body just "going through motions"?  Or are they PART of the entire experience, LIVING it alongside, and WITH the HEAD?

BETH:

Quote from: Beth on July 25, 2010, 04:38:34 PM:mshock: Can't agree with the idea that we are just actors playing our parts.

That's fine... however...

Within my "EXAMPLE" above...

(1) are my EYES, just "actors" which view the route to the game, and then watch it?  

(2) are my HANDS, just "actors" which negotiate the car?

(3) are my FEET, just "actors" which carry my body to its seat, and later, "act" their way back to the car?

On the contrary... they are PIVOTAL, NECESSARY and LIVING PARTICIPANTS within the entire experience which was "FOREORDAINED" by my "HEAD"...  :dontknow:

Quote from: Beth on July 25, 2010, 04:38:34 PMThe fact that God knows all things b4 they occur, imo, does not equate to Him being responsible for every "motion."

You are welcome to embrace what you desire... but REASON, LOGIC, as well as TRUTH, dictate otherwise:

GOD DECLARED the End from the Beginning, those things which "are NOT YET DONE" (which is EVERYTHING) -- Isaiah 46:10-11 --

Do you think that it is possible that ANYTHING can OCCUR outside of this DECLARATION?  And if so... then the "DECLARATION" of YHVH has contained fallacy, or UNTRUTH within any (even the smallest) portion which in fact is VARIANT and does NOT manifest according to His "DECLARATION"... which also asserts that the WORD contains LIES...

That WE are LIVING MEMBERS of the BODY of CHRIST, means that we DO as the HEAD DECLARES we do... otherwise, the HEAD is NOT in control of the BODY, and we are NOT SUBJECT to it.  :mnah:

Quote from: Beth on July 25, 2010, 04:38:34 PMI've always looked at predestination with the same perspective as understanding He was, He is and He shall be, thus, He has chosen, is choosing and shall choose.

I don't mean any harm Beth... but this observation of -- "was, is, shall be" -- is NOT how He IS... CHRIST in the NT -- John 8:58 -- as well as YHVH in the OT, -- Ex 3:14 -- noted themselves in PRESENT ONLY, for in the PRESENT ONLY does LIFE exist.

That it is noted in Heb 13:8 that CHRIST is the same "yesterday, today, and forever" is for our benefit, for being FINITE (bound to, as well as subject to time, and the physical) we cannot KNOW the parameters of the ETERNAL, which are without change and which are without BEGINNING as well as END.

Something that REMAINS the SAME, is UNCHANGING, which also means that it is ALWAYS MANIFEST as it ...IS...

GOD is not subject to PHYSICAL or TIME parameters... He ...IS... in ALL "PLACES" (He does not "go" anywhere) -- Psalm 139:8 -- in ALL "TIMES"... (as noted above)... It is UNECESSARY for Him to "have chosen, choose, and to choose"... for ANYTHING and EVERYTHING which is EMERGENT from HIM, are ETERNAL and permanent.   Anything and Everything which emerges from HIM, already IS...

This is the PRINCIPLE of "NOW"...

He does not "choose" to "do" anything... It is already DONE from ETERNAL perspective.  FINITES are bound to TIME, and therefore the activities which we view and are "involved in", are subject to their manifestation, as occuring at a given point in "TIME"...

Though this is a VERY hard principle for "FINITES" to grasp, it is not impossible.  

It takes FAITH to KNOW in your HEART, that everything you SEE, HEAR, and DO... has always been in the Heart of YHVH God... and that NOTHING that appears (for instance, your "birth"), actually "BEGAN" here... Though its "manifestation" within the FINITE had a "beginning"... it already IS in the Heart of YHVH God forever.

I for one admit that I cannot comprehend how --

(1) God has NO BEGINNING!
(2) God is EVERYWHERE at once!
(3) God KNOWS everything!
(4) God is COMPLETE in every possible way!

These (and others) are mind boggling attributes, which are NOT within my perspective, nor do they relate to my INCOMPLETE, CONFINED and BEGINNING/END existence.  :dontknow:

That I do not have the capability to behold these things does not preclude that they are indeed aspects of our Creator...  :mblush:

I hope I have worded this with clarity.  If you have any questions or something was unclear, let me know and I'll try to reword what I have said.  :friendstu:

:Peace:

Quote from: LS on July 25, 2010, 10:36:57 PM

Quote from: Shadow on July 25, 2010, 10:13:13 PM
You are missing the POINT LS, my name was either there or it wasn't BEFORE I or anyone even came into existence, I know you mean well, but IT DOESN"T CHANGE THE COLD HARD FACT, that the names were there before the world was started

Please don't be angry with me for trying again ... but my point is, our names are written in a book, not in stone. They can be blotted out, yes.  The book can change because we write the book of our lives with God.   :HeartThrob:

FIRST --- Concerning "WRITING"... ALL "writing" of GOD is "IN STONE" (literally or figuratively)... and the only example of Him actually "WRITING" in this physical realm... was in fact... IN STONE -- Ex 31:18 --  :dontknow:

We are instructed to NOT... add to, or take away from the WRITING of GOD -- Rev 22:18 -- Pro 30:6 -- which does NOT CHANGE and is in PERFECT, COMPLETE form in ALL its manifestations, be they IN the EVER CHANGING state of TIME, ...or in the UNCHANGING state of the ETERNAL.

Once something is WRITTEN in STONE... "changing" it is impossible.

As Shadow has noted... the WRITING of the names is PERMANANENT.

That IN TIME and via the effects of EVIL the names of the LIVING written in the ETERNAL, are "blotted out" via temporal DEATH in temporal TIME... does not change that they are WRITTEN by an UNCHANGING entity (God) in His UNCHANGING realm (ETERNAL)...

SECOND --- "We" do not "write" anything concerning the "books" of our lives... GOD declared them before they were (via "STONE writing", for HIS WORD is UNCHANGING) -- Isaiah 46:10 -- and ORDERS the STEPS (pathway) which are taken within them -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 20:24 -- Prov 16:9 -- Eph 2:10



:Peace:  willieH   :Peace2:

Very well said my brother! I especially love the perspective you give concerning God setting things in stone and us merely being actors in it.

It is all about perspective, for I could view this life as has been said by some, that we are mere robots. However, that produces the perspective that we (robots) are separate from the one working the robot (God.)

Such separation is a lie, for God answered his son's request that we be one, just as he and his father are one. Being his body, we cannot help but do what he (the head of that selfsame body) directs. It truly is the experiencing of what the head directs. That includes for now the experience of good and evil, lessons which have eternal consequence. We come to see it for what it is-death. And in so seeing, we see the beautiful contrast of truth-the Life, Jesus himself, us in him, and him in us.

Ron

Quote from: LS on July 25, 2010, 10:36:57 PM

Quote from: Shadow on July 25, 2010, 10:13:13 PM

You are missing the POINT LS, my name was either there or it wasn't BEFORE I or anyone even came into existence, I know you mean well, but IT DOESN"T CHANGE THE COLD HARD FACT, that the names were there before the world was started

Please don't be angry with me for trying again ... but my point is, our names are written in a book, not in stone. They can be blotted out, yes.  The book can change because we write the book of our lives with God.   :HeartThrob:

Whose names are in the book of life?

Daniel 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

It is those who are "delivered" at that time. "Thy people" does not mean ethnic Jews, but those who are in Christ! At that time is when those saints who had previously died are raised up from their graves, as described in Daniel 12:2. The saints are the ones who have their names written in the book. They are accounted worthy to stand before the Son of man, when he comes. [Luke 21:36]

It will not include every one, as many scriptures say that there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth." [Matthew 8:12; 13:42, 50; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30; Luke 13:28]

In Revelation 7 two groups are described; the ones who are sealed, described in verses 4-8, and the vast multitude of all nations, who are described in the remaining part of the chapter. Here is what is said of the second group:

Revelation 7:9-10
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

This must be the vast majority of mankind, which no man can number, whereas for the first group, a specific number is mentioned. The second group probably includes many who were never interested in the gospel at all. They are also saved, but it happens in the judgment.

Revelation 7:13-17
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

John says they "came out of great tribulation," which is what those called in the present age have the opportunity to escape. This is probably what Jesus meant, when he said to "watch," and to "pray always."

Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Those whose names were not in the book may still be among the second group, described in the last part of Revelation 7.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

There are different "orders" mentioned or implied here:

(1) Christ the firstfruits
(2) they that are Christ's
(3) the rest of mankind

Doug

Quote from: willieH on July 25, 2010, 11:24:47 PM

FIRST --- Concerning "WRITING"... ALL "writing" of GOD is "IN STONE" (literally or figuratively)... and the only example of Him actually "WRITING" in this physical realm... was in fact... IN STONE -- Ex 31:18 --  :dontknow:

Moses spoke of God having written his name in a book, which probably was not made of stone.

Exodus 32:32
Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

David said his sufferings were recorded in God's book:

Psalm 56:8
Thou tellest my wanderings: put thou my tears into thy bottle: are they not in thy book?

David said, possibly referring to the church, all his members are written in God's book.

Psalm 139:16
Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

The writing that appeared on the wall at the feast of Belshazzar was written not on stone but on "plaister."

Daniel 5
5 In the same hour came forth fingers of a man's hand, and wrote over against the candlestick upon the plaister of the wall of the king's palace: and the king saw the part of the hand that wrote.
6 Then the king's countenance was changed, and his thoughts troubled him, so that the joints of his loins were loosed, and his knees smote one against another.

According to Jeremiah, God has promised to write his laws on our hearts.

Jeremiah 31:31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jesus wrote something on the ground with his finger, probably in sand.

John 8:6
This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

Usually, God has others do the writing for him.  :Sparkletooth:

Doug

We get lost, do we not?

How about...
1.) The Firstfruits: Christ, a many-membered man (1 Cor 12:12) Jesus the Head and those with His resurrection (the 144,000?)
2.) Those that are Christ's in His presence (so not confined to a one time event, though possibly a concentration of a generation that change in the period straddling the entrance into the Age of Tabernacles, ie., The Millennial Age.)
3.) Those at the end.

Quote from: reFORMer on July 26, 2010, 08:12:10 AM

How about...
1.) The Firstfruits: Christ, a many-membered man (1 Cor 12:12) Jesus the Head and those with His resurrection (the 144,000?)

I see no merit in conflating the resurrection of Christ which is past, with the resurrection of his saints which is future.

Jesus is indeed the head of the body, [Ephesians 5:23, Colossians 1:18] which is the church.

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Christ is the "firstfruits of them that slept."

1 Corinthians 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

The 144,000 are also a "firstfruits."

Revelation 14:4
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

They stand together with Jesus on mount Sion.

Revelation 14:1
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Compare this with Hebrews 12:22-23; "Ye are come to mount Sion." It is a name for the temple of God, where his Spirit dwells.

Hebrews 12:22-23
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

It includes the prophets in its foundation. [Ephesians 2:20]

John identifies the saints with the 12 tribes of Israel, as they are "circumcised without hands."

Colossians 2:11
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Paul said, "we are the circumcision."

Philippians 3:3
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Quote from: reFORMer on July 26, 2010, 08:12:10 AM

2.) Those that are Christ's in His presence (so not confined to a one time event, though possibly a concentration of a generation that change in the period straddling the entrance into the Age of Tabernacles, ie., The Millennial Age.)
3.) Those at the end.

Paul described the resurrection of the saints as a one time event, yet future, connected with a trumpet.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-16 [NIV]
14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Doug

:cloud9:  God looks at the motive of the heart in ALL things.....

That statement should get some people biting their nails and peering over their shoulders! 

I would like to propose the thought that Scripture is not like any other book in that there are mulitple dimensions of understanding in it and aside from reading it like one would read Moby dick in seeing things written as literal events only in Scripture they actually happened as historical experiences . . outside of that, anything gleaned from the Scriptures spiritually can only be spiritually revealed.

The back half of Daniel, Matthew 24 and the book of Revelation all have the same language and as far as literal understanding goes, they were all refering to one occasion and for me, it's not the end of mankind.  It was about the end of the Old Covenant system.  In th natural, it came to a head in A.D. 70 and there was great tribulation following that where Christians were terribly slaughtered in most barbaric ways.  And yet today's church ignores all of that and assumes these prophecies are still yet to happen in our future.

Spiritually . . .WE ARE ALL EPISTLES.  We are all books.  The blotting out from the Lambs book of life, for me isn't about losing your salvation or your free ticket into heaven . . .for me it's dealing with earth dwellers . . those who choose to live according to their own understanding rather than walking in the Spirit.  To "them" the kingdom principles become unreachable. 

My name is my identity.  When it gets blotted out, for me again . .. I'm not saying you're all wrong and I'm the only one right . . .this isn't about trying to prove rightness, just sharing where I'm at and everyone has the option as to whether they want to "be" in the same place or not.  But for me, the blotting out of a name from the book of life is saying that when I walk in the flesh, I lose (blot) my identity (name) of who I am in Christ (Lambs book of life). 

It isn't changing my final destination.  It's simply restraining my full potential of being who I truly am in Christ "IN THIS REALM". 


Revelation 7:9-10
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.


That sounds to me like all men from all times and eras coming into the celebration of who God is in all their lives.  Shadow, that includes you.  Whether your mind says so or not, this is where you need to walk away from what your mind is trying to convince you of and rely on faith.  Believe in things your mind can't see.  Accept things your mind can't comprehend.  There is a great power and freedom that awaits you beyond the doors of faith.  Just step through them and let God do the rest.

                                              But how, Nathan, how do we step through that door?

The act of disregarding what my mind is trying to tell me is a great start.  When I put my mind back in it's proper order  . . .taking captive my thoughts is laying down the noise my mind is constantly churning out and listening for, searching for the "sound" of what the Spirit is saying within me. 

Truth is not in the Scriptures alone.  Truth is in me.  It's not what I can "get in" my head that leads to truth.  It's what I "let out" of my heart that will lead me.  As long as I embrace what I think I know, I will continue to flail around and stumble when it comes to spiritual matters. 

I must depend on my minds operation to exist in this natural realm.  But the moment I turn my attention to the spiritual realm, I must disengauge my minds operation and have it simply be in "obeservation" of what is coming out of my spirit.  "That's" where God has written his laws of love.  "In" me.

It's the first shall be last and least shall be greatest principle.  In this realm, we "think" Scripture is saying thus and so, we "think" we can operate in the spirit realm using the same tools of reasoning that we operate with in "this" realm.  We think if we study hard, break down definitions and be as disciplined as we possibly can, that we'll be able to have greater understanding of the spiritual things of God in our lives.  We think we build doctrines based on what the Bible is saying . . .but the rules of engagment in the spirit realm are the opposite from what we do in the natural realm.

That's why what I think is most important here, spiritually is actually least important.  People that I think are great men of God in my world are actually the least important in the spirit.  Why?  Because everything I do in this realm is out of the operations of my mind.  But my mind is "at enmity" against God so all of my observations that come by way of reasoning and logic are tainted at best.

How do we walk in the spirit?  Hunger.  If you're not hungry for it. . if your not thirsty for eternal waters, you're not going to want to drink what's being offered to you.

The back half of Daniel, Matthew 24 and the book of Revelation all have the same language and as far as literal understanding goes, they were all refering to one occasion and for me, it's not the end of mankind.  It was about the end of the Old Covenant system.  In th natural, it came to a head in A.D. 70 and there was great tribulation following that where Christians were terribly slaughtered in most barbaric ways.  And yet today's church ignores all of that and assumes these prophecies are still yet to happen in our future.

Nathan, I see this the same way.

CHB

Quote from: CHB on July 26, 2010, 06:42:30 PM
The back half of Daniel, Matthew 24 and the book of Revelation all have the same language and as far as literal understanding goes, they were all refering to one occasion and for me, it's not the end of mankind.  It was about the end of the Old Covenant system.  In th natural, it came to a head in A.D. 70 and there was great tribulation following that where Christians were terribly slaughtered in most barbaric ways.  And yet today's church ignores all of that and assumes these prophecies are still yet to happen in our future.

Nathan, I see this the same way.

CHB

It is understandable that one would want to belive that the events have already happened in the distant past, these events are frightening. However instead of hoping that it was a past event, perhaps it's a better strategy to pray to God for the strength to be able to handle what's about to come or already upon the earth, such as the earthquakes.

That's just it.  There are always going to be natural disasters as long is we live on this earth in this realm.  I can deal with that.  But when people see what's going on in their back yard and pull passages out of context in Scripture to instill fear in others by claiming "this" is what they meant when they said "that" about the ENTIRE WORLD is something that I beleive is simply misdirected intentions.

What happened back then in the natural was terribly frightening.  But it came and went and has been 2000 years removed.  There was a huge insurgance of it resurfacing at the turn of the first century and they did it again back in the year 2000. 

It's like that guy that wrote the book "88 Reasons Why Jesus Is Returning in 1988".  Then the year came and went and guess what?  Nothing happened.  But the religious leaders of our day actually paid for thousands of copies of that book and sent it out to as many churches as they could to warn the members to sell all they owned, to stock up on canned goods cuz with the rapture, there was a great Tribulation following . . .

And when it didn't happen, thousands of people were stuck with spam and dried milk.   The author of the book amazingly wrote a follow up book with the same title . . .add one year.  Everyone got all excited and it obviously had the same results.  The patterned continued for 6 or 7 years before they finally decided the author didn't know what he was talking about.

The only problem was, no one went back and listened for the sound to explain to them anything inwardly so the doctrine remains that "sometime in the future" these things are to take place.  I'm saying it was long ago in the past they already took place and now, 'inwardly" they are always taking place.  It's the process of life of the spirit purging, cleansing and preparing the bride not for the disappearance of the church, but for the coming of the Lord "in" men.

As to the earthquakes and hurricanes . . .that's the nature of this realm.  We live in a realm of death.  The miracle is, life has come to this realm of death and it's establishing a foundation that death can't penetrait.  As we enter into the Sabbath of God, the Sabbath "has come" to us.  It's an intimate uniting where two become one.

Quote from: Nathan on July 26, 2010, 09:44:16 PM

That's just it.  There are always going to be natural disasters as long is we live on this earth in this realm.  I can deal with that.  But when people see what's going on in their back yard and pull passages out of context in Scripture to instill fear in others by claiming "this" is what they meant when they said "that" about the ENTIRE WORLD is something that I beleive is simply misdirected intentions.

What happened back then in the natural was terribly frightening.  But it came and went and has been 2000 years removed.  There was a huge insurgance of it resurfacing at the turn of the first century and they did it again back in the year 2000. 

It's like that guy that wrote the book "88 Reasons Why Jesus Is Returning in 1988".  Then the year came and went and guess what?  Nothing happened.  But the religious leaders of our day actually paid for thousands of copies of that book and sent it out to as many churches as they could to warn the members to sell all they owned, to stock up on canned goods cuz with the rapture, there was a great Tribulation following . . .

And when it didn't happen, thousands of people were stuck with spam and dried milk.   The author of the book amazingly wrote a follow up book with the same title . . .add one year.  Everyone got all excited and it obviously had the same results.  The patterned continued for 6 or 7 years before they finally decided the author didn't know what he was talking about.

The author of the book was Edgar Whisenant. Another book in that period was "Christ Returns by 1988, 101 Reasons Why" by Colin Deal (http://www.deuceofclubs.com/books/250colin_deal.htm). One of his reasons was:

[#96] The Jewish nation of Israel was set up in Palestine on May 14, 1948, and the fig tree taken as their national symbol just as prophesied. Therefore, the generation (or time span) started in 1948. But how long is a Jewish generation, and when will it mature?

According to Jewish genealogy (Matthew 1: 17), the Bible (Psalms 95:10), and the Dead Sea Scrolls (under Reiigious Belief and Practices) a generation is 40 years. Christ also confirmed this in Matthew 23 and 24 when he predicted the overthrow of Jerusalem in that present generation -- Matthew 23:36. From the time Christ spoke this (approximately 30 A.D.) until the overthrow of Jerusalem (70 A.D.), about 40 years expired. Now to conclude, Luke 21:32 -- Verily I say unto you, this generation (Israel's rebirth 1948 to around 1988) shall not pass away, till all (all of Luke 21) be fulfilled."

Need I say more; we are that generation! (162-3)

Mr. Deal based his argument on a misinterpretation of the words of Jesus:

Luke 21:32
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus included himself, when he referred to "this generation." Since he rose from the grave, and has remained alive ever since, his generation has not passed away. It still exists.

When Jesus said the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, would be required of "this generation," he included himself. He was the one who took upon himself the sins of all men when he died.

Luke 11:49 - 51:
Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

Only when we recognize that Jesus represented his generation, does this make sense. It would not be fair for God to punish people who lived in the first century for sins committed centuries before, would it?

Some of the early churchmen, whose opinions on many things now seem foolish, thought the destruction of Jerusalem was alluded to when Jesus said these things. They viewed the destruction of Jerusalem as God's judgment on the Jews. In the fourth century, Chrysostom wrote:

For I will ask them, Did He send the prophets and wise men? Did they slay them in their synagogue? Was their house left desolate? Did all the vengeance come upon that generation? It is quite plain that it was so, and no man gainsays it. (Homily LXXIV, Sec. 3, A.D.347)

Origin, and Athanasius said similar things.

I suggest they misunderstood Jesus.

In modern times, preterists have made the very same mistake. They fail to recognize that Jesus remains alive, so his generation has not passed away!

Doug

Quote from: Doug on July 27, 2010, 12:13:04 AM
In modern times, preterists have made the very same mistake. They fail to recognize that Jesus remains alive, so his generation has not passed away!

Doug

:thanks:  I was looking for a smilie with a lightbulb going off but couldn't find one. But thank you! Something clicked with that statement that I will ponder for a while!

Consider it carefully.  It may very well be a correct interpretation, but I'm not sure it fits the context of the scriptures within which Jesus made the "this generation" statement.  It may, I'm just saying check it out.  I've heard this interpretation before.  I'm going to look at it some more myself.   :bigGrin:

There are multiple interpretations I've seen.  The one Doug presents (which I think certainly may be true, at the least in one way of looking at it - as in Jesus IS alive, etc.).  There's the full preterist view that EVERYTHING had to do with TOTAL fulfillment in that age by 70 AD.  There is info on the TM main page about Christ's comingS, including in 70 AD.  Gary Amirault has stated major things happened in 70 AD that we should pay attention to, but that he believes there could be double fulfillment of some things [and major things yet to come] (partial preterism).

I found this interesting (puzzling?) view at practicalJesus.blogspot.com by Marc Thomas;

"In context, this statement must be speaking of the future. According to Matthew 24:3 (Syriac versions), Yeshua is responding to his disciples' question regarding "your coming and the age of shalom."

Some believe that Yeshua was proposing a rapid emergence of the "Kingdom of God," and anticipated that those living would see such an end. Others say that Yeshua was giving a prophecy with a "double fulfillment"--Some of what He was predicting was going to occur in that generation, some later.

The extant Greek versions of the Bible use the word genea, which is translated (normally) as the English "generation," which is understood to refer to related people living around the same time and making up a single step in a line of descent.  The word appears thirteen times in the TR text of the gospels, and each time, it can (and does) refer to the Jewish race. In fact, in Luke 11:30, the word is equated to a race by the statement, "For just as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so the Son of Man will be a sign to this generation (genea).

More importantly, the word appearing in extant Syriac texts for genea is sarbeta, "continuing." The words is also defined as "family stock."

The Syriac for Matthew 24:34 says:

amyn amrna lkwn dla tabr Shrbta hda adma dhlyn kwlhyn nhwyn

A better translation:
Truly I say to you (all) not abolished is this race until all these things they come to be."
--------------

Yep, much to ponder alright.  :bigGrin:

Quote from: jabcat on July 27, 2010, 12:25:32 AM
Consider it carefully.  It may very well be a correct interpretation, but I'm not sure it fits the context of the scriptures within which Jesus made the "this generation" statement.  It may, I'm just saying check it out.  I've heard this interpretation before.  I'm going to look at it some more myself.   :bigGrin:

I agree with you - I haven't jumped on the bandwagon, but it's the first time I've heard it and it's made me stop to think  :)

Quote from: Doug on July 26, 2010, 12:40:37 AM

Quote from: willieH on July 25, 2010, 11:24:47 PM

FIRST --- Concerning "WRITING"... ALL "writing" of GOD is "IN STONE" (literally or figuratively)... and the only example of Him actually "WRITING" in this physical realm... was in fact... IN STONE -- Ex 31:18 --  :dontknow:

Moses spoke of God having written his name in a book, which probably was not made of stone.

Exodus 32:32
Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

Well, God, as Scripture documents, only "wrote" in this realm ONCE (possibly twice?  :mblush:)... and in either case (if there indeed were 2 cases in which GOD actually, "wrote"), the writing was done in a PERMANENT substance who's essence is, STONE...

Quote from: Doug on July 26, 2010, 12:40:37 AMDavid said his sufferings were recorded in God's book:

Psalm 56:8
Thou tellest my wanderings: put thou my tears into thy bottle: are they not in thy book?

David said, possibly referring to the church, all his members are written in God's book.

Psalm 139:16
Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

GOD's "book" is HIS DECLARATION of that which SHALL be (of things NOT YET) done in His Creation... which is EVERYTHING... End to Beginning -- Isaiah 46:10

The "STONE" that God "writes in" is the picture of an UNCHANGING writing, which ...IS the point!  :dontknow:  

His DECLARATION of MAN and this REALM -- Isaiah 46:10 -- is UNCHANGING, and CANNOT be altered... otherwise it is found a "faulty prophecy", in which other than that which was "declared" by Him, took place...  :mnah:

Quote from: Doug on July 26, 2010, 12:40:37 AMThe writing that appeared on the wall at the feast of Belshazzar was written not on stone but on "plaister."

Daniel 5
5 In the same hour came forth fingers of a man's hand, and wrote over against the candlestick upon the plaister of the wall of the king's palace: and the king saw the part of the hand that wrote.
6 Then the king's countenance was changed, and his thoughts troubled him, so that the joints of his loins were loosed, and his knees smote one against another.

Splitting hairs, evading the point.  The "stone" (in the physical), only serves to represent that which is UNCHANGING, and which shall NOT be CHANGED.

Sorry to burst your "plaister" balloon, but...

Plaister = lime = stone --> #H1528 = "plaister" is compared to #H1615 = stone  :dontknow:

In any event, that which is written in PLASTER is still PERMANENT, for it cannot be successfully ALTERED (neither is it even attempted)... which is MY POINT...

Quote from: Doug on July 26, 2010, 12:40:37 AMAccording to Jeremiah, God has promised to write his laws on our hearts.

Jeremiah 31:31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

And that "WRITING", once written, is PERMANENT... as IS writing "IN STONE".

Quote from: Doug on July 26, 2010, 12:40:37 AMJesus wrote something on the ground with his finger, probably in sand.

John 8:6
This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

JESUS was not God... He was His SON... and YHVH GOD is also, the GOD of JESUS -- Eph 1:3

Quote from: Doug on July 26, 2010, 12:40:37 AMUsually, God has others do the writing for him.  :Sparkletooth:

Doug

I disagree Doug...

GOD writes IN and through HIS INSPIRATION in people, ...they do not "write" for Him of themselves... They "write" as LIVING INSTRUMENTS in the Hand of GOD... :nod:

Quote from: jabcat on July 27, 2010, 12:40:33 AM
Gary Amirault has stated major things happened in 70 AD that we should pay attention to, but that he believes there could be double fulfillment of some things [and major things yet to come] (partial preterism).

That is closest to my beliefs, and also to what my church teaches.  I have to be honest that prophecy & future events has never been a big interest to me though; it's not something He has ever laid heavily on my heart. I know some people are passionate about searching for those answers ... different parts to the body I guess   :HeartThrob:

.

Quote from: LS on July 27, 2010, 12:44:46 AM

Quote from: jabcat on July 27, 2010, 12:25:32 AM
Consider it carefully.  It may very well be a correct interpretation, but I'm not sure it fits the context of the scriptures within which Jesus made the "this generation" statement.  It may, I'm just saying check it out.  I've heard this interpretation before.  I'm going to look at it some more myself.   :bigGrin:

I agree with you - I haven't jumped on the bandwagon, but it's the first time I've heard it and it's made me stop to think  :)

I believe I've also heard Cardinal say it.  As I said, in some ways it surely must be true, in some sense.  I'm really just not sure it's the primary application for this particular scripture, but it may be.  I'm no expert on it.  I've got bits and pieces like everyone else.

P.S.  Me too on your last post.  God bless

Here's what I'm seeing happen here . . .there is a mixture of dimensional understanding crossing over hear.  For Jesus to speak that it's about "his" generation of "re"generation, I wouldn't denounce that at all.  But what the claim here is, that judgment is coming to the earth for the same original reasons . . .AGAIN . . .even though it already came to "that" generation back then. 

That's one, the other is, Matthew 24 wasn't the first time he referred to "this" generation.  He said it previously when he was handing down the 7 woes to the relgious pharisees . . .I'm not so sure you could get it to fit "there".  That's the thing about spiritual patterns, they should be able to remain consistent.  A man signifies spirit and a woman signifies soul in Genesis, and that pattern remains constant all through Scripture. 

But when you cross over and say it's a dimensional generation he's referring to and not a literal one, then how can "that" part be dimensional, and yet you revert back to the judgment as being natural again?  "If" this generation is speaking of Jesus who is still alive, then the judgments he's referring to are inwardly as well . . .and not to be reapplied as a "double prophecy" which I'm not so sure is a pattern God established either.

Quote from: Doug on July 27, 2010, 12:13:04 AM
In modern times, preterists have made the very same mistake. They fail to recognize that Jesus remains alive, so his generation has not passed away!

Though I do not consider myself a "preterist" (mostly because I am not familiar with the view in all aspects of it)... It remains just "your opinion" that a "mistake" exists... using that "opinion" as the factor which determines a "mistake" exists...  :dontknow:

As I see it, ...JESUS was removed from the FINITE (human) "generation" in which He was born via his (human) DEATH from it... which is how ANY member of a given (human) "generation" is removed...  This (FINITE) generation, therefore... IS passed away.

That He was supernaturally and ETERNALLY RESURRECTED (enjoining Him to the ETERNAL realm), removed Him from the membership of the FINITE generation of which He was a part... and which IS PASSED AWAY.

Which indeed is the destiny of all generations which have "PASSED AWAY"... and they shall remain "PASSED AWAY" until their RESURRECTION, in kind.  (God is IMPARTIAL to all men -- Acts 10:34 + 9 others)

He is NOW a member of the ETERNAL setting in which He IS ascended to the Father, not part of a FINITE "human" GENERATION which no longer exists... and the "generation" of which He once lived as a MAN, and was numbered as part of it, and then DIED removing Him from that number, is NOW, ...passed away...

Quote from: Doug on July 27, 2010, 12:13:04 AM
Luke 11:49 - 51:
Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

Only when we recognize that Jesus represented his generation, does this make sense. It would not be fair for God to punish people who lived in the first century for sins committed centuries before, would it?

Some of the early churchmen, whose opinions on many things now seem foolish, thought the destruction of Jerusalem was alluded to when Jesus said these things. They viewed the destruction of Jerusalem as God's judgment on the Jews. In the fourth century, Chrysostom wrote:

For I will ask them, Did He send the prophets and wise men? Did they slay them in their synagogue? Was their house left desolate? Did all the vengeance come upon that generation? It is quite plain that it was so, and no man gainsays it. (Homily LXXIV, Sec. 3, A.D.347)

Origin, and Athanasius said similar things.

I suggest they misunderstood Jesus.

In modern times, preterists have made the very same mistake. They fail to recognize that Jesus remains alive, so his generation has not passed away!

Doug

:cloud9: I see an aspect of this too......His flesh was the generation that passed away that all these things came upon. What happened in the natural was just the body doing what it saw the Head do......the veil of the Jewish temple being rent at the moment His flesh and Spirit veils were rent, was mirroring the pattern again.

That's why He talked to the Pharisees about throwing down the temple of His body, and THEY also thought He meant the natural temple.

And then Christians come along and say basically the same thing about the literal temple, *AND*, the literal temple of His flesh body, but STILL the temple He was talking about was the heavenly or spiritual pattern the copies (including His flesh body) were made from.

He was the Word (waters above the firmament), made flesh (waters below the firmament). And everyone focuses on the flesh form of Him, even after He arose, but the temple/generation that He raised back up, was the HEAVENLY (and again, the flesh/natural body had to do what it saw it's Head do). We have to let Him "re-adjust" our vision to focus on what the Spirit is doing, and not the flesh.....

This is why they didn't recognize Him when He arose, nor did the two on the road until He broke bread with them. Blessings...