Rebuiding of the Temple unscriptural?

[Taffy]

During the millennium they will bring sacrifices:

Yup Tony
sure will be sacrifices bud, those which RISE, as a BURNT offering of incense( prayers of Righteousness), that which are set before the ALTER....


Luk 1:11 And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.


Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with the"""" prayers of all saints """""upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Psa 141:2 """Let my prayer be set forth"" before thee [as] incense; [and] the lifting up of my hands [as] the"""" evening sacrifice.   """"""""


Psa 66:15 I will offer unto thee burnt sacrifices of fatlings, with the incense of rams; I will offer bullocks with goats. Selah.

Exd 30:7 And Aaron shall burn thereon sweet incense every morning: when he dresseth the lamps, he shall burn incense upon it. 
and He wasnt Lying

Exd 30:8 And when Aaron lighteth the lamps at even, he shall burn incense upon it, a perpetual incense before the LORD throughout your generations

Deu 33:10 They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar

Lev 16:12 And he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the LORD, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring [it] within the vail: WHOPPEEEDO DA DAY :HeartThrob:

Lev 16:13 And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the LORD, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that [is] upon the testimony, that he die not: Just a few thoughts On the sacrifices which are Made NOW :icon_flower:

Again ALWAYS first the Natural which is the shadow, then the spiritual which is  the REALITY, we just need to be able to see how that Applies...which isnt alsways easy, until its revealed
always enjoyed Jukes."law of the Sacrifices", Cant remember if he talked Much on Incense thou.... :HeartThrob:

[Taffy]

Martin


Thanks for being straight Bud,.....  :HeartThrob:

[martincisneros]

Just a thought for consideration...I personally tend to think there won't be a temple rebuilt, that we are the temple, and that we are the house of God and house of prayer, but I may not be correct in that...one reason I say that is, if the church (ecclesia) are the called out people and not a building with a steeple, then in turn, how could a building with a steeple be called those things  :dontknow:...don't get that...anyway though, for the sake of this discussion, if there were a temple rebuilt/sacrifices offered, would those things necessarily have to be sanctioned (and accepted) by God?   Could it be like a lot things we do "in His name"...our own doing and not His...on the other hand, why would He have it measured?  just thoughts...I like Nathan's statements that all can have a voice about our understandings within scripture...part of how we learn  :thumbsup:.

I'm genuinely curious as to whether or not the mountain that the Jewish Temple was built on could accomodate a mile in diameter temple.  Doesn't seem like it's that big from the pictures that I've seen of the one that some people are insisting is the less ambitious tribulation temple.  So, if it's supposed to be a mile, that could already tell you that it's talking about something else unless Scripture allows for it being somewhere else.  And we are the Temple.  And to be brutally honest, with the perspective that I've had over the last 7 years, we have had the Temple with the continual animal sacrifices with people still living in the old paradigm regarding animals.  That's been going on virtually unchallenged 50% to 75% of the time during the last two thousand years.  If we argue for certain centuries not having particularly been Christian centuries, you're still looking at a thousand years of that having already transpired. 

The measurements in the Scriptures often teach lessons completely unrelated to the particular thing that they're measuring, like with the tabernacle of Moses being full of lessons about the righteousness of Christ Jesus, our liberty in Him with all of the repeated 50s associated with it, etc.  I genuinely don't believe that those stop with the Mosaic law.  We just don't have very many people that can do their own digging and they start assuming that all that can be dug out has already been dug out just because they know of authors that have traced 1% of 1% of the types, shadows, symbols, names, choices in spelling, ordering of events, numerology of the Scriptures, and taking into account what we're deliberately told [and how] and contrasting that with what we're deliberately not told and all of the how, why, and when associated with each of those details that are sorta the Calculus, Trigonometry, Geometry, and Advanced Algebra of the Scriptures if we were to assume a whole lot of [deliberate] layers to Scripture and it's Inspiration. 

When you're dealing with the Scriptures, Pythagoras's maxim universally applies that "all is number."  I've heard very good teaching over the years from quite a few Bible teachers that certain events in the Bible meant certain things because they were done in certain places, but had those exact same things been done elsewhere, then those very actions would have meant something entirely different elsewhere.  So, if there isn't a going of the second mile in the Scriptures without it's own unique significance, then none of us are looking at the Scriptures with a powerful enough of a microscope yet.

[jabcat]

  And to be brutally honest, with the perspective that I've had over the last 7 years, we have had the Temple with the continual animal sacrifices with people still living in the old paradigm regarding animals.  That's been going on virtually unchallenged 50% to 75% of the time during the last two thousand years.  If we argue for certain centuries not having particularly been Christian centuries, you're still looking at a thousand years of that having already transpired. 

Very interesting.  I was a vegetarian for about 5 years...been thinking lately about your veganism...and I agree, we are clearly told we are the temple, and that God doesn't dwell in houses made of hands...so for me, right now, I'd have to think even if there was another brick and stone temple built, it would be man's doing (?)...there's WAY much sacred symbolism about the veil being torn, not one stone upon another, "temple torn down and rebuilt in 3 days", etc., and the immesurable significance of all that...

[Taffy]

When you're dealing with the Scriptures, Pythagoras's maxim universally applies that "all is number."  I've heard very good teaching over the years from quite a few Bible teachers that certain events in the Bible meant certain things because they were done in certain places, but had those exact same things been done elsewhere, then those very actions would have meant something entirely different elsewhere.  So, if there isn't a going of the second mile in the Scriptures without it's own unique significance, then none of us are looking at the Scriptures with a powerful enough of a microscope yet.

If your saying what I think your saying..   :dontknow:     then welcome to my world of thought

[Molly]

Just a thought for consideration...I personally tend to think there won't be a temple rebuilt, that we are the temple, and that we are the house of God and house of prayer, but I may not be correct in that...one reason I say that is, if the church (ecclesia) are the called out people and not a building with a steeple, then in turn, how could a building with a steeple be called those things  :dontknow:...don't get that...anyway though, for the sake of this discussion, if there were a temple rebuilt/sacrifices offered, would those things necessarily have to be sanctioned (and accepted) by God?   Could it be like a lot things we do "in His name"...our own doing and not His...on the other hand, why would He have it measured?  just thoughts...I like Nathan's statements that all can have a voice about our understandings within scripture...part of how we learn  :thumbsup:.

The church is called out people
Not a building with a steeple
Could a building with a steeple be like Him?

Not a hand and not a hammer
Not a whisper, not a stammer
Builds the Temple of His people once again.



Mark 14:58
"We heard him say, 'I will destroy this man-made temple and in three days will build another, not made by man.' "

[jabcat]

The church is called out people
Not a building with a steeple
Could a building with a steeple be like Him?

Not a hand and not a hammer
Not a whisper, not a stammer
Builds the Temple of His people once again.



Mark 14:58
"We heard him say, 'I will destroy this man-made temple and in three days will build another, not made by man.' "

:thumbsup:...I like that..."not made by man"!!!!

[Molly]

30:8 And when Aaron lighteth the lamps at even, he shall burn incense upon it, a perpetual incense before the LORD throughout your generations



1 Thessalonians 5:17
Pray without ceasing.



Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.



"incense"

G2368
θυμίαμα
thumiama
thoo-mee'-am-ah
From G2370; an aroma, that is, fragrant powder burnt in religious service; by implication the burning itself: - incense, odour.


"he shall burn incense"

H6999
קטר
qâṭar
kaw-tar'
A primitive root (rather identical with H7000 through the idea of fumigation in a close place and perhaps thus driving out the occupants); to smoke, that is, turn into fragrance by fire (especially as an act of worship): - burn (incense, sacrifice) (upon), (altar for) incense, kindle, offer (incense, a sacrifice).

[Tony N]

Just a thought for consideration...I personally tend to think there won't be a temple rebuilt, that we are the temple, and that we are the house of God and house of prayer, but I may not be correct in that...one reason I say that is, if the church (ecclesia) are the called out people and not a building with a steeple, then in turn, how could a building with a steeple be called those things  :dontknow:...don't get that...anyway though, for the sake of this discussion, if there were a temple rebuilt/sacrifices offered, would those things necessarily have to be sanctioned (and accepted) by God?   Could it be like a lot things we do "in His name"...our own doing and not His...on the other hand, why would He have it measured?  just thoughts...I like Nathan's statements that all can have a voice about our understandings within scripture...part of how we learn  :thumbsup:.

Yea, but there comes a time when a thread has to be locked just so no one's pet theory is threatened, if you know what I mean  :icon_flower:

If people are the temple of God how does the antichrist or man of lawlessness get inside that temple since the holy spirit will not share space with satan in the same body?

Also, if the man of lawnessness has already done his trick as stated here:

2Th 2:3-4  No one should be deluding you by any method, for, should not the apostasy be coming first and the man of lawlessness be unveiled, the son of destruction,  (4)  who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God?

So if the man of lawlessness did his trick of seating himself in the temple of God in 70 A.D. and actually DEMONSTRATED THAT HE HIMSELF IS GOD in 70 A.D., then all the believers of the nations prior to that time have been taken with Christ and we are no longer under grace or under Paul's evangel for the last almost 2000 years.

Now you can lock the thread.

[peacemaker]

"Verily, I am saying to you that there are some of those standing here who under no circumstances shall be tasting death - till they shall be perceiving - the Son of Mankind coming in His kingdom."

The Kingdom is within by and through His Spirit in the time, specified: "First the physical, then, the Spiritual."

And, it is indeed important to believe what the Scriptures say – without a doubt.

So, is the Spirit given, temporarily? Or, a peremptory mandamus of Christ?


peacemaker

[Molly]

2But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

3And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

4Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

--Malachi 3


So it will not be until the priests are themselves purified whereby their offering will be righteousness, that is, Christ---that they will enter into the new priesthood.  It is only Christ which is pleasing to the LORD.



Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

[Taffy]

If people are the temple of God how does the antichrist or man of lawlessness get inside that temple since the holy spirit will not share space with satan in the same body?

ya could re read the Wheat and Tares Thread ..says the same thing......

The Tares which dwells with The wheat , let them GROW together, Untill a Time  the of Unveiling is Revealed :icon_flower:

The soul Of Man is What sits in the Temple , claiming its self to Be GOD ......(""""so they wish to be GODS like US""")

The Son of Pedition is within ALL men.

[Tony N]

"Verily, I am saying to you that there are some of those standing here who under no circumstances shall be tasting death - till they shall be perceiving - the Son of Mankind coming in His kingdom."

The Kingdom is within by and through His Spirit in the time, specified: "First the physical, then, the Spiritual."

And, it is indeed important to believe what the Scriptures say – without a doubt.

So, is the Spirit given, temporarily? Or, a peremptory mandamus of Christ?


peacemaker

Dear peacemaker,

if the kingdom of God already came, why did Jesus state it was still future:

Mar 14:25 "Verily, I am saying to you that no longer under any circumstances may I be drinking of the product of the grapevine till that day whenever I may be drinking it new in the kingdom of God."

If the kingdom of God was already present when Christ walked the earth why was Joseph still anticipating it?:

Mar 15:43 Joseph from Arimathea, a respectable counselor, who himself also was anticipating the kingdom of God, coming with daring, entered in to Pilate and requests the body of Jesus."

If the disciples were still seeking the kingdom of God, how could it already have come? . . .
Luk 12:31 However, be seeking the kingdom of God, and all these things will be added to you."

Did the 12 see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God? . . .

Luk 13:28 There will be lamentation and gnashing of teeth, whenever you should be seeing Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, yet you cast outside."

The Pharisees were looking for the kingdom of God . . .
Luk 17:20 Now, being inquired of by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God is coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with scrutiny."

In other words, one won't have to squint to see if it has come because it will be like lightening flashing:
Luk 17:24 For even as the lightning, flashing out from here under heaven to there under heaven, is shining, thus will be the Son of Mankind in His day."

They were expecting the kingdom of God to be coming at any time:
Luk 19:11 "Now at their hearing these things, adding, He spoke a parable because of His being near Jerusalem, and they are supposing that instantly the kingdom of God is about to be looming up."
But it didn't come.

    "The Kingdom of God is very seldom mentioned in the epistles, stress being laid upon its character. It is never, however, spoken of as a present reality upon the earth. It is spoken of as future (1 Cor.6:9,10; 15:50; Gal.5:21; Eph 5:5; 1 Thess.2:12; 2 Thess.1:5; 2 Tim.4:1,18). It is associated with the Circumcision (Col.4:11). The phrase "the kingdom of God is within you," so often quoted to show a present mysterious immanence is a mistranslation. When the Greek "en," in, is used with a plural, it should be rendered "among." The Lord said "the kingdom of God is among you." It had drawn very nigh in those days." (A.E. Knoch, Unsearchable Riches, vol.1)

Even in the Acts period when the spirit was given, the disciples were looking for the kingdom to come:
Act 1:6 Those, indeed, then, who are coming together, asked Him, saying, "Lord, art Thou at this time restoring the kingdom to Israel?

Shalom, peace and all that jazz  :drummer: :angelharp: :banana:

[Tony N]

If people are the temple of God how does the antichrist or man of lawlessness get inside that temple since the holy spirit will not share space with satan in the same body?

ya could re read the Wheat and Tares Thread ..says the same thing......

The Tares which dwells with The wheat , let them GROW together, Untill a Time  the of Unveiling is Revealed :icon_flower:

The soul Of Man is What sits in the Temple , claiming its self to Be GOD ......(""""so they wish to be GODS like US""")

The Son of Pedition is within ALL men.

Dear Taffy, having wheat (believers) dwelling with tares (seed of Satan) is not the same as Satan dwelling inside of believers.

Mat 13:38 Now the field is the world. Now the ideal seed, these are the sons of the kingdom. Now the darnel are the sons of the wicked one."
Mat 13:39 Now the enemy who sows them is the Adversary. Now the harvest is the conclusion of the eon. Now the reapers are messengers.

The conclusion of the eon has not occurred yet. When Jesus comes He will judge the nations (Matthew 25:31-46) and judge Israel and cast out of the kingdom He sets up the sons of the wicked one.

[Taffy]

If people are the temple of God how does the antichrist or man of lawlessness get inside that temple since the holy spirit will not share space with satan in the same body?

ya could re read the Wheat and Tares Thread ..says the same thing......

The Tares which dwells with The wheat , let them GROW together, Untill a Time  the of Unveiling is Revealed :icon_flower:

The soul Of Man is What sits in the Temple , claiming its self to Be GOD ......(""""so they wish to be GODS like US""")

The Son of Pedition is within ALL men.

Dear Taffy, having wheat (believers) dwelling with tares (seed of Satan) is not the same as Satan dwelling inside of believers.

Mat 13:38 Now the field is the world. Now the ideal seed, these are the sons of the kingdom. Now the darnel are the sons of the wicked one."
Mat 13:39 Now the enemy who sows them is the Adversary. Now the harvest is the conclusion of the eon. Now the reapers are messengers.

The conclusion of the eon has not occurred yet. When Jesus comes He will judge the nations (Matthew 25:31-46) and judge Israel and cast out of the kingdom He sets up the sons of the wicked one.

Hi Tony
as Explained

They are seen two fold, one as a People ,aka the pharisees and those under law, but speaks also of the Hidden Man which is to be revealed .

they also Grow inward but are shown outwardly as The pharisees
Maybe you dont see that Christ is the Kingdom HIDDEN in all men, Until he comes as As theif in the Night to restore what is Rightfully His..well you do, but not in the manner some understand it.

The secret of the ages which paul speaks of...the wheat Is Hidden behind the veil, the soul of Man is the tare which LOOKS like wheat,the god who sits in the temple proclaiming to BE God, ....

The message is repeated time and Time again, just spoken differently

:icon_flower:

The topic of the end of the world has alos been touched on Tony, but again you see it differently


Be blessed bro in what you are led too see and share .

[Tony N]

the god who sits in the temple proclaiming to BE God,

Taffy, the man of lawlessness is DEMONSTRATING that he is God.

2Th 2:3-4  No one should be deluding you by any method, for, should not the apostasy be coming first and the man of lawlessness be unveiled, the son of destruction,  (4)  who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God?

It is one thing to "proclaim to be God" and quite another to "demonstrate that he himself is God."

The secret of the ages which paul speaks of...the wheat Is Hidden behind the veil, the soul of Man is the tare which LOOKS like wheat,the god who sits in the temple proclaiming to BE God, ....

Taffy, I don't know where you are getting your information but Paul never spoke of "the wheat hidden behind the veil" as a secret. The Bible also knows no such thing as "the soul of man is the tare which looks like wheat."


The point is this, and is inescapable as to the conclusion to be drawn:

If the man of lawlessness has already demonstrated he is God in the temple then the body of Christ was withdrawn almost 2000 years ago. The nations have been under the iron club of the 12 apostles for almost 2000 years with their headquarters in Israel (that's if the new heavens and new earth didn't come almost 1000 years ago). We are not under grace if we've been under the 12.

[Taffy]

the god who sits in the temple proclaiming to BE God,

Taffy, the man of lawlessness is DEMONSTRATING that he is God.

2Th 2:3-4  No one should be deluding you by any method, for, should not the apostasy be coming first and the man of lawlessness be unveiled, the son of destruction,  (4)  who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God?

It is one thing to "proclaim to be God" and quite another to "demonstrate that he himself is God."

The secret of the ages which paul speaks of...the wheat Is Hidden behind the veil, the soul of Man is the tare which LOOKS like wheat,the god who sits in the temple proclaiming to BE God, ....

Taffy, I don't know where you are getting your information but Paul never spoke of "the wheat hidden behind the veil" as a secret. The Bible also knows no such thing as "the soul of man is the tare which looks like wheat."


The point is this, and is inescapable as to the conclusion to be drawn:

If the man of lawlessness has already demonstrated he is God in the temple then the body of Christ was withdrawn almost 2000 years ago. The nations have been under the iron club of the 12 apostles for almost 2000 years with their headquarters in Israel (that's if the new heavens and new earth didn't come almost 1000 years ago). We are not under grace if we've been under the 12.

Tony
we are POLES apart Bud ...Light yrs :laughing7:

The Soul of Man is the Heart and Mind ,again revIEw that thread, tis this which Demostrates HE is God , HE that sits In  the Temple, THat Temple  which sould be The HEART and MIND of Christ given in the NEW C...HENSE we WHO are In Him and HIM in Us are that Temple.

Paul NEVER spoke about the Hidden man( Christ, Wheat ,zoe spirit, etc) behind the Veil, what scriptures do you read Tony?

The parables are all about the Hidden Man of the Heart , the Kngdom of God which lays within ALL men Until revealed...

If the man of lawlessness has already demonstrated he is God in the temple then the body of Christ was withdrawn almost 2000 years ago. The nations have been under the iron club of the 12 apostles for almost 2000 years with their headquarters in Israel (that's if the new heavens and new earth didn't come almost 1000 years ago). We are not under grace if we've been under the 12.

now ya lost me with this bit...could ya explain again :icon_flower:

ps
as for infomation from elsewhere...Nah dont read folk much T , I knida make it up as I go along ,,, :happy3:

For me the Original invite was to his country men who denied Him, the many who were called But only a Few Chosen,like the apostles :dontknow:

we see that The MANY Refused the Invite , so BOTH GOOD AND BAD were gathered,again could be veiw outward and Inwardly ...Two Type of folk , good and Bad , but we Know No one is GOOD,..but it could also Imply the GOOD and Bad with In, Likened to the Tares and Wheat , the Soul of Man v The life giving zoe SPIRIT, seen also as Jew and Gentile


The One Ommitted is the One NOT covered ....


Mat 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.


Mat 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.


Mat 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.


Mat 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:


Mat 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.


Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth

Tony Im not here to defend Just share what I see Bro,....

[Molly]

Tony is saying that things have to happen in a certain order.


The question is what things in what order...

I tend to agree that there are certain physical manifestations in the real world that we still have to look forward to. For instance,  I don't believe that all the good people will disappear (rapture), but rather that they will fill the whole earth.  At the moment, evil is filling the whole earth.  In my opinion, this is not a good outcome..I need something better to look forward to.

So Tony maybe you could just give a list of the order in which things play out according to you. 

[Nathan]

Unfortunately for me . . . I can not respond to anything on this part of the board.  The only way it works is to start a new thread . . and even then, I can't respond to my own new thread . .I'm thinking of perhaps registering in a new name and seeing if that will remedy my problem.

This particular board is one that has gone deeply in my heart.  The book of Revelation is an experience in me, no longer instilled through knowledge and study . . .both of those things are still obtained in me, but not through the laboring of defining every word or comparing every translation or reference. 

Ever since I was young, my eyes have required assistance to see things clearly.  In my earlier years of adulthood, I elected to forego wearing glasses due to my belief that they would clash with how good looking I was.  But eventually, reality took over and I decided it's best to see the beautiful girls that turn me down, than to not see at all.  In the end, God fixed that little issue by having one of them marry me. . . who knew?   

But my point is, once my glasses became a part of me . . .there was no going back.  And that's the way it is for me spiritually.  There is a realm here where EVERYTHING fits together and it's purpose for the spirit to reveal the "mysteries" the Paul does indeed speak of (some referred to them as secrets) is not to lift any one person above another, but it's to bring all attention to the glory and love of God to man.

Pursuing the natural aspects of these things in Revelation or any other book, does many things . .but illuminating the glory and love doesn't seem to be at the top.  Literal interpretation brings division because everyone has their own interpretation of what literally is supposed to happen.  It brings condemnation, all though I'm pleasantly surprised that the conversations these last couple days have not come to this as of yet.

But for me, most importantly, it distracts us "from" God who is spirit, and it puts all the focus on the destruction of man . .who is flesh.  The over all message for me that Revelation brings is that man overcomes his flesh through the finished work of the cross of Christ.  Our discussions quickly push aside the fact that this entire book is a revealing of Jesus.  It's not about a building of brick and mortar being rebuilt.  It's not about one world government or leader.  It's not about evil men dictating their evil nature over a powerless world.

It is a revelation of Jesus who is what?  A spirit.  This is a revelation of a Spirit of God.  And yes, God does use natural things to reveal spiritual truths . .but this is not a revelation of a spiritual truth . .this is a revelation of The Spirit.  And as is with other spiritual language . .all of these things are signs . . .they are not literal.  There is not a literal bottomless pit with literal locusts flying out.  There are not constant lightnings and deafening thunderings in the natural . these are all spiritual realities.

Look . . all through Scripture leading up to this, the message was that we are not of this world . .we are not bound to the laws any longer.  We are aliens.  The things that we thrive on are not physical but spiritual.  Jesus is a spirit, I am a spirit.  Scripture even states that His spirit speaks to "my" spirit . . . so why is there such an embrace to the natural when the message is a continuance of the spiritual?

It is clear that there is a chasm between the two sides on this thought.  I've stated this before on previous threads in this forum and it's still true . . . these two premises will never blend as one because one is embracing natural while the other is embracing spiritual and you can't mix oil with water.

For me, walking in faith is to "trust" in the invisible things of God without demanding proof every step of the way.  The Bible is not the final word.  Church has taught us that it is, but it's not.  It is a sign that points to the final Word.  But it's not the final word itself.  Why?  Because in it we're told that God will "no longer" write his laws in stone . . .meaning there is a change in the way God communcates to us.  But now, he's writing his Word in OUR HEARTS . . .which is not my head, it's my spirit.  It's not in the natural things, they are simply signs pointing to the deeper things.

So, with these new perscriptions, I "look for" the spiritual pictures as I read the sign in Scripture.  The natural is always the most obvious and even though I am not a full preterist, I do beleive that the things naturally written were to a natural people that already experienced these things naturally.  Even though . . .the whole world didn't see the sun go black, the moon turn red . . all that . .those are "signs" implying other things . . it wasn't about a literal moon going black . . and if you think about it . . the literal interpretation just makes no sense.

According to the literalists, there is still to be a remnant of people that survive the destruction of the earth . . .do you have any idea of what would happen to the earth if the sun went black ???  They say that if the earth moves just one fraction closer to the sun, it'll burn up . .and a fraction away from the sun, we'll freeze solid . .but they want you to believe the sun will be removed all together and people survive?  All the stars are supposedly supposed to fall to the earth . . .there are planets out there that are so big compared to the earth that literally, the earth is the size of the tiniest pinhead you could imagine . . .and yet "all" the stars are supposed to fall "on" the earth??

Pursue the spirit . .that's the only place where you will find life that you can live in.  In the natural, we've been dying since the day we were born.

[Molly]

Look . . all through Scripture leading up to this, the message was that we are not of this world . .we are not bound to the laws any longer.  We are aliens.  The things that we thrive on are not physical but spiritual.  Jesus is a spirit, I am a spirit.  Scripture even states that His spirit speaks to "my" spirit . . . so why is there such an embrace to the natural when the message is a continuance of the spiritual?

Because that is what Jesus brought to us.  He is the Word become flesh.  He is the Spiritual come down to the physical.  That is where you get miracles, at this intersection when Spirit interacts with the physical world.  This is the way I see it, that Spirit is to transform the very day to day physical that we were born into.

Even so, his miracles always made the lives of people better--food, physical and emotional healing, raising from the dead--because he is all about everything this world is not:  Life beyond measure.  The miracle is his pure love.


John 6:26
Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

[peacemaker]

Dearest Tony,

It is nice to meet you, and thank you for the response. :hihat:

I like to think of heaven as having hearty purposes and extraordinary remedies.

To be perceiving is to attain awareness or understanding of; unearthing an obscured truth and grasping the nature of that something, bringing to light that which was forgotten or hidden. Seeing the true light of that something derives from the "Spirit of truth" which dwells within –  living it, as contrasted with that of simply being told.

I have often found that:

"Man cannot comprehend the existence of error; when to deeply immersed in it."

The phrase "the kingdom of God is within you," so often quoted to show a present mysterious immanence is a mistranslation. When the Greek "en," in, is used with a plural, it should be rendered "among." The Lord said "the kingdom of God is among you."

Actually, it is in the midst of, as hidden in the trees; the people.

It takes considerable time for man to let go of the teachings of other men, while these men literally make a fortune "among" themselves – as they see it.

The kingdom of God is not coming with scrutiny ...as Taffy would say, tis true!

But many are syncretistic in their demons of idolatry with the natural desires of the flesh, and fleshly wisdom with spiritual understanding. Thus, they seek a sign for the Kingdom of heaven, as in "the" article, or "an" anti-Christ, yet, there are many.

Shalom (peace) of God to you, as well.


peacemaker

" Trust in The LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct thy paths." (Proverbs 3:5-6)  :Book:




      

[Tony N]

Taffy, I'm real busy so will be short and sweet:

Jesus spoke about the wheat and tares. He started out with a parable using figures of speech (wheat and tares) and explained the literalness of those figurative expressions by stating this:

Mat 13:38 Now the field is the world. Now the ideal seed, these are the sons of the kingdom. Now the darnel are the sons of the wicked one."

Now you want to reverse the literalness of what Jesus said the ideal seed and darnel is and make it figurative again and your figurative idea does not match up whith what Jesus said.

You can't say: The wheat are the sons of the kingdom and then you turn that into meaning "the soul." Jesus didn't say the tare (darnel) is the soul. He said the tare (darnel) is the sons of the wicked one. The wicked one is Satan. Jesus did not say the wheat is hid behind the veil.

I said earlier
If the man of lawlessness has already demonstrated he is God in the temple then the body of Christ was withdrawn almost 2000 years ago. The nations have been under the iron club of the 12 apostles for almost 2000 years with their headquarters in Israel (that's if the new heavens and new earth didn't come almost 1000 years ago). We are not under grace if we've been under the 12.

And you replied:
now ya lost me with this bit...could ya explain again :icon_flower:

Tony's reply:
2Th 2:6 And now you are aware what is detaining, for him to be unveiled in his own era."

Concerning the man of lawlessness coming. I believe as long as we believers of the nations are not snatched away to meet the Lord in the air . . .

1Th 4:17 Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord."

That we are the ones detaining him. Once we are taken out, once the complement of the nations is entering:

Rom 11:25 For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering"

once that happens then around that time the man of lawlessness will be revealed.

So, if the man of lawlessness came in 70 A.D. then the body of Christ left to be with Christ before 70 A.D. and so till about 1070 A.D. the earth went through the millennial reign of Christ being under the iron club of the 12 disciples and around 1070 A.D. the earth was someone destroyed by fire, all the dead, great and small were resurrected and stood before the great white throne, Satan was captured and has remained captured since that time and God and Christ have been ruling the earth from Jerusalem in righteousness.

[Taffy]

Taffy, I'm real busy so will be short and sweet:

Jesus spoke about the wheat and tares. He started out with a parable using figures of speech (wheat and tares) and explained the literalness of those figurative expressions by stating this:

Mat 13:38 Now the field is the world. Now the ideal seed, these are the sons of the kingdom. Now the darnel are the sons of the wicked one."

Now you want to reverse the literalness of what Jesus said the ideal seed and darnel is and make it figurative again and your figurative idea does not match up whith what Jesus said.

You can't say: The wheat are the sons of the kingdom and then you turn that into meaning "the soul." Jesus didn't say the tare (darnel) is the soul. He said the tare (darnel) is the sons of the wicked one. The wicked one is Satan. Jesus did not say the wheat is hid behind the veil

Hi Tony
Hope your day is a Good one Bro, even if ya are Busy.

Yup your right ,

The Field is the WORLD, thats everyone Both Natural and what consists Inwardly , man Himself made from the Dust of the Earth.

As Ive endeavoured to share, tis two fold the Natural bearing witness to the Spiritual, but this is where we differ.

So, Naturally Christ uses the Pharisees, Likened to the Tares( those of LAW, Hidden behind the veil to Explain whats Hidden WITHIN)
Which is as Paul came to see the secret or Mystery of the ages,which is Christ( WHEAT= The New Soul ,Breath of Life , ZOE spirit) and the The Tare( that which is the Soul of man, the enmity of the heart and Mind) which Both dwell WITHIN man, but the the TRUE life spirit, Christ WHEAT is Hidden Until HES revealed.

Tony,to RE- VEAL means to Un vieil what was already there, its Not New ,  but its perceived to be New,

Did Paul see this..yes he did, Christ Revealed himself to Him, removing the scales from His eyes( understanding) to SEE WHAT was Hidden all along,..the Tearing of the Veil in the literal Temple when Christ died On the Cross, MAking Entry to the Holy of Holies Possible....Its all the same message Tony.

WHo are Blind,?..well those who dont see, and who those who dont see?. those shown after SAUL, those hidden behind the veil because of their Pride in the LAW,..tis a simple as chips as we say here.

ever Notice the Wisdom of this world is Devilish ,speaks of Mans perceived Wisdom, Knowledge of LAW,..Therefore they are Blind to the TRUTH which set them FREE, they cling to the Form not the reality

Come on Tony Just who did Christ Preach To....Ill hazard a Guess..Catholics?......No, Jews....

He circled Galilee speaking to HIS country men Bro..the message was for the People of the DAY bud....

He spoke figurativly But even having explained to the Disciples I dare say them really grasped what Christ was saying.

The flesh Tony is what paul speaks of , tis the Soul of man which consists of the HEART and Mind , weird egh, that In the NEW God promises a NEW HEART AND NEW MIND, ...seems to me ,it replaces the Old..First the Natural, then the spiritual....

The oLd perishes Tony , burns up, comes at The END of the WORLD, and age or era  and that Era Ended with Christ,
Likened to the Tares which is The soul of Man, again tis all the same...

The secret Bro is Christ In us..who is HIDDEN until hes revealed..

Psa 25:14 The secret of the LORD [is] with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.
Psa 31:20 Thou shalt hide them in the secret of thy presence from the pride of man: thou shalt keep them secretly in a pavilion from the strife of tongues
Psa 91:1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
Pro 3:32 For the froward [is] abomination to the LORD: but his secret [is] with the righteous

Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].

Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

The Law is the Shadow of the reality which was to come

Deu 29:29 The secret [things belong] unto the LORD our God: but those [things which are] revealed [belong] unto us and to our children for ever, that [we] may do all the words of this law.

See it with the Newness of their SOUL

Isa 40:5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see [it] together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken [it]. 

The DAY of The LORD revealed in the Hearts of men

Isa 56:1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation [is] near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 

Luk 2:35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.
we enter through the veil via faith ,is the WHEAT\Corn not the BREAD of Life

Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
That Via His Garce all the WORLD should be made ONEm that the secret be unveiled equally to them

   


Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:


Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,


Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)


Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;


Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:


Eph 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.


Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;


Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Are not the Wicked the same as the tares...which  really speaks for the Soul of man

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


Tony bro...speak as you will , youll not convince me otherwise.

Christ dwells in the Hearts OF ALL men, Till the time its RE-VEALED...tis the Mystery even Now very few seem to Understand
Sgs 7:2 Thy navel [is like] a round goblet, [which] wanteth not liquor: thy belly [is like] an heap of wheat set about with lilies.


Luk 12:25 And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?


Luk 12:26 If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?


Luk 12:27 Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.


Luk 12:28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more [will he clothe] you, O ye of little faith?

[peacemaker]

Man will promptly defend any thought, not at variance with his expectations, nor contrary to his own interests, as the eyes can only see what the mind has, is, and will be prepared to comprehend. And, no matter what we do in the letter of the law (in the flesh), it cannot result in life in the Spirit, unless, God through Christ changes the individuals heart, or the heart of a nation.

It's a matter of the heart, within, and the removal of undesirable elements that were cultivated from the very beginning in the imaginations and beliefs of men.

There is a changing of our heart, and renewing of our mind from the past, to the present and into future generations that must take place - until, "All shall come to the knowledge of the truth!"

Life isn't about waiting for a neon sign, nor for the storm to pass; it's about learning to dance in the rain, by the light of His Spirit.

One Bible passage that often comes to mind from the heart of the Spirit, time and time again, when considering this poisonous seed is:

"For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God, rather than burnt offerings." (Hosea 6:6)

Which is also mentioned by Jesus:

"Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners." (Matthew 9:13)

"But if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent."(Matthew 12:7)

However, there is no love without forgiveness; for what power has love, but forgiveness.

peacemaker

[Nathan]

Tony wrote:
Mat 13:38 Now the field is the world. Now the ideal seed, these are the sons of the kingdom. Now the darnel are the sons of the wicked one."

Now you want to reverse the literalness of what Jesus said the ideal seed and darnel is and make it figurative again and your figurative idea does not match up whith what Jesus said.

You can't say: The wheat are the sons of the kingdom and then you turn that into meaning "the soul." Jesus didn't say the tare (darnel) is the soul. He said the tare (darnel) is the sons of the wicked one. The wicked one is Satan. Jesus did not say the wheat is hid behind the veil.


Actually I can and the reson I can is that last little stance at the very end of what Jesus was explaining on this subject "he that hath an ear . . ."  This to me, is Jesus saying there is more to this than what you're seeing on the surface . . .seeing things spiritually simply means you are applying them "internally" in the sense that it's not about God and men, but God and "man"  . .my man . .my inner man.  In this way, the wheat is my spirit, the tares are my flesh.

God doesn't want the saints separated from the sinners .. . he wants to reach the sinners "through" the saints . . .kinda hard to do if ya got them separated from each other.