Rebuiding of the Temple unscriptural?

[Nathan]

We came across an interesting passage last night in our weekly study of Revelation . . .it has been my contention that even though there is a great acceptance in most religious circles concerning the rebuilding of the temple . .that I personally don't believe it's ever going to happen due to the fact that I feel that's a door God closed and no man can open.

Well . . .out of the blue, this question came up about the connection between this and  a passage out of Jeremiah.  It's easy to remember because as a child John 3:16 was predominantly engrained into our brains . .and this one is the same . . .only in Jeremiah instead.

14Turn back, O backsliding sons, An affirmation of Jehovah. For I have ruled over you, And taken you one of a city, and two of a family, And have brought you to Zion,  15And I have given to you shepherds According to Mine own heart, And they have fed you with knowledge and understanding.

16And it hath come to pass, when ye are multiplied, And have been fruitful in the land, In those days -- an affirmation of Jehovah, They say not any more, `The ark of the covenant of Jehovah,' Nor doth it go up on the heart, Nor do they remember concerning it, Nor do they inspect, nor is it made again.

17At that time they cry to Jerusalem, `O throne of Jehovah,' And gathered unto her hath been all the nations, For the name of Jehovah, to Jerusalem, Nor do they go any more after the stubbornness of their evil heart.  18In those days do the house of Judah Go unto the house of Israel, And they come together from the land of the south, unto the land That I caused your fathers to inherit.  19And I have said, How do I put thee among the sons, And give to thee a desirable land, A beauteous inheritance of the hosts of nations, And I say, My father -- ye do call to Me, And from after Me ye do not turn back.

As near as I can tell . . . Scripture is saying the tabernacle as they knew it to be, would never be rebuilt again . .including the animal sacrifices and everything that went with it.

[Molly]

As near as I can tell . . . Scripture is saying the tabernacle as they knew it to be, would never be rebuilt again . .including the animal sacrifices and everything that went with it.

Yes, of course, why would we ever go back to animal sacrifice?  That priesthood (Levite) ended when John the Baptist handed the baton over to the new priesthood in Christ Jesus at the river Jordan.

Jesus told the Pharisees, "Behold, I leave your house desolate."

There is no longer any need of the Levite priesthood.  It has been replaced.

It's interesting that there has not been a legitimate Levite priesthood since that time, nor animal sacrifice, nor a Temple.  The ark of the covenant has gone missing,  as have the ten lost tribes of Israel--only God knows who they are.

This is not to say they won't try.   It's not clear to me how far they will get before God puts an end to it himself.   These are those, including now deceived Christians, who do not think the Messiah has come, yet.  They read the traditions of men, not their own Holy Bible, the word of God.




"In recounting this historical record in his commentary to the Mishna, the great Maimonides ends with the enigmatic statement: "... and the tenth red heifer will be accomplished by the king, the Messiah; may he be revealed speedily, Amen, May it be God's will."

:"

http://www.templeinstitute.org/red_heifer/tenth_red_heifer.htm

[I removed some of that because they don't want us copying text from their website.  But they think the Messiah himself will officiate at the sacrifice of the red heiffer when he comes,  presumably at the rebuilt Temple.]

[Taffy]

First the Natural,as was With the First Adam,the Old Covenant, The shadow then the Reality, the New C, etc,

A Temple Build With Hands Has gone and WONT be for mine again,...

I dont read, Natural then spiritual then Back to Natural :dontknow:

[Nathan]

Yup, yup, yup . . .I just didn't realize it was so blunt in Scripture.  I love how often we'll see something and then "later" come across the Scriptures that affirm what is written in our hearts.

[Molly]

Yup, yup, yup . . .I just didn't realize it was so blunt in Scripture.  I love how often we'll see something and then "later" come across the Scriptures that affirm what is written in our hearts.

This is so central to the understanding of the Messiah, that it amazes me that churches never teach it.

I have never heard any church teaching on the Melchizedek priesthood, in person, on radio, or on tv.

Why the silence?

We are to be the Temple of God, not some building.  Or maybe they don't want us to know that?



1Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

2For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

--Isa 66

[Molly]

For I have ruled over you, And taken you one of a city, and two of a family, And have brought you to Zion,.. 

--Jeremiah 3:14




Jeremiah 31:12
Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all.



1His foundation is in the holy mountains.

2The LORD loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob.

3Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah.

4I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to them that know me: behold Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia; this man was born there.

5And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her.

6The LORD shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there. Selah.

7As well the singers as the players on instruments shall be there: all my springs are in thee.

--Psalm 87

[Taffy]

We too could consider this:-

They WORSHIPPED in the Temple MADE of Hands....

We Worship IN SPIRIT and TRUTH,..Which IS again ( CHRIST in US,)

Christ In us Is the True Life spirit, the quickening ZOE life he blew into those at RE-BIRTH, starting at Pentecost , The TRUTH which bears witness to HIM....IS HIM...,MEANS Christ IN US.

This again for me Bears witnes to My postings In The Wheat and Tares,,tis all the same.



Phl 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

we know the story 5 Husbands Equate to the 5 books of the Torah, 5 synonomous with Grace bearing winess to the LAW again parabolic, Types \shadows

Jhn 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:


Jhn 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.


Jhn 4:15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.


Jhn 4:16 Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.


Jhn 4:17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:


Jhn 4:18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.


Jhn 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.


Jhn 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.


Jhn 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.


Jhn 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.


Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.


Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

[Nathan]

2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This is one of the platforms they use to prove the temple will be rebuilt.  As is this one in Daniel 12

11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Hmmm . .  . must be talking about a different temple other than a physical one then eh?

[Tony N]

But what if John wrote Revelation 96 A.D. and he was in spirit in the future day of the Lord and in that future day saw and wrote this:

Rev 11:1 And a reed like a rod was given me, and one said, "Rouse, measure the temple of God and the altar and those worshiping in it."

If that is the case then there is a yet future temple.

I believe this to be the case. Once that temple is desecrated by the man of lawlessness then there will be 3 1/2 years of tribulation for the Jewish Christians in Israel.

We believers of the nation will be taken out before this occurrs.

Tony

Test

[Nathan]

For some reason, it won't let me respond on the other thread . . .and it doesn't appear to be locked so I don't know what's going on with it.  The last post on this topic stated as follows . . .


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But what if John wrote Revelation 96 A.D. and he was in spirit in the future day of the Lord and in that future day saw and wrote this:

Rev 11:1 And a reed like a rod was given me, and one said, "Rouse, measure the temple of God and the altar and those worshiping in it."

If that is the case then there is a yet future temple.

I believe this to be the case. Once that temple is desecrated by the man of lawlessness then there will be 3 1/2 years of tribulation for the Jewish Christians in Israel.

We believers of the nation will be taken out before this occurrs.

Tony

------------------------------------------------
I want to respond to this because I do think it's important that we realize that it would be so detrimental for man to try to rebuild what God removed.  It's not cooincidence that ever since the tabernacle was first built . . and then moved into the temple of Solomon . .ever since that was first constructed, the enemies of Israel came in, destroyed the city and raided then destroyed the temple . .and EVERY time they were able to go back and rebuild the temple and continue on with their animal sacrifices . . .UNTIL . . .when Christ came as the ultimate sacrifice. 

After that, when Rome destroyed them in A.D. 70 the prophetic words of Jesus in Matthew 24 were fulfilled.  Not one stone was left on top of the other.  But it not only was the buildings Jesus was referring to, but also the entire religious system.  And for anyone to rebuild it would essentially mean that Christ means nothing.  He was "not" the ultimate sacrifice . . . he didn't die once and for all . . . and even though it was God who closed the door . .man can open what God closes . . . God is not going to have men return to the very system that Jesus replaced . .that doesn't fit with anything at all.

And as to John looking in to the future . . .which again, is to ignore all of the "the time is at hand . . ." and "to THIS generation . . ." passages which I choose not to ignore . .but be that as it may . . .for John to be seeing a temple of the future would be another lie . . .because John was actually shown just the OPPOSITE.

Revelation 21
21And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

[Taffy]

That which was given to measure was Christ himself, I see that A reed is symbolic to a Message and THE Rod is the One from Jesse, a( Message of Correction.) Christ Is the MEASURE of the Temple, for men are of Small measure, yet to be converted, Faith Makes ONE WHOLE, Complete and He is the Measure of it.

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:


Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

Mat 27:29 And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put [it] upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews! 
Mat 27:30 And they spit upon him, and took the reed, and smote him on the head

1Ki 14:15 For the LORD shall smite Israel, as a reed is shaken in the water, and he shall root up Israel out of this good land, which he gave to their fathers, and shall scatter them beyond the river, because they have made their groves, provoking the LORD to anger.

:2c:

[Tony N]

For some reason, it won't let me respond on the other thread . . .and it doesn't appear to be locked so I don't know what's going on with it.  The last post on this topic stated as follows . . .


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But what if John wrote Revelation 96 A.D. and he was in spirit in the future day of the Lord and in that future day saw and wrote this:

Rev 11:1 And a reed like a rod was given me, and one said, "Rouse, measure the temple of God and the altar and those worshiping in it."

If that is the case then there is a yet future temple.

I believe this to be the case. Once that temple is desecrated by the man of lawlessness then there will be 3 1/2 years of tribulation for the Jewish Christians in Israel.

We believers of the nation will be taken out before this occurrs.

Tony

------------------------------------------------
I want to respond to this because I do think it's important that we realize that it would be so detrimental for man to try to rebuild what God removed.  It's not cooincidence that ever since the tabernacle was first built . . and then moved into the temple of Solomon . .ever since that was first constructed, the enemies of Israel came in, destroyed the city and raided then destroyed the temple . .and EVERY time they were able to go back and rebuild the temple and continue on with their animal sacrifices . . .UNTIL . . .when Christ came as the ultimate sacrifice. 

After that, when Rome destroyed them in A.D. 70 the prophetic words of Jesus in Matthew 24 were fulfilled.  Not one stone was left on top of the other.  But it not only was the buildings Jesus was referring to, but also the entire religious system.  And for anyone to rebuild it would essentially mean that Christ means nothing.  He was "not" the ultimate sacrifice . . . he didn't die once and for all . . . and even though it was God who closed the door . .man can open what God closes . . . God is not going to have men return to the very system that Jesus replaced . .that doesn't fit with anything at all.

And as to John looking in to the future . . .which again, is to ignore all of the "the time is at hand . . ." and "to THIS generation . . ." passages which I choose not to ignore . .but be that as it may . . .for John to be seeing a temple of the future would be another lie . . .because John was actually shown just the OPPOSITE.

Tony's reply:
But dear Nathan, it does not ignore "the time is at hand" nor ignore "this generation."
If you go here to this study on "This Generation" http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HeShallSaveHisPeople/thisgen.html
you will see that in no way does John seeing into the future ignore this.

Nathan wrote:

Revelation 21
21And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

That is on the new earth. There is no temple on the new earth except for God and Christ being the temple. John not only saw the 1000 year future age in which the temple was to be measured (You can't measure God), he also saw the new earth age.

[Taffy]

Tony

The bottom line bro is the "DAY of the Lord ",...you see it in the Future as do some , others see it NOW,...so everything above that common denominator will differ from each ones pespective, therefore, never shall the twain meet :icon_flower:

[martincisneros]

The Scriptures could possibly anticipate a future Temple being rebuilt in Israel.  But it would be no different than a Krishna Temple -- absolutely meaningless paganism to God.  If He accepted animal sacrifices, then it would violate multiple covenants of the Scriptures.  Roughly a dozen of them, of which I'll only mention 3 for brevity:

1. The covenant of the remission of sin through Jesus Christ having been the lamb of God.

2. The Hosea 2:18 covenant that says that God's causing these animals to lie down in safety.  A knife to the throat isn't safety.  The sacrifice and oblation has ceased per this covenant.

3. Christ Jesus' clear comment that the Kingdom had been taken completely away from Israel.  They'll never have it back.  That was a permanent removal.  The close of Jeremiah 31 is interpreted for us in Hebrews with the city not made with hands that's in the heavens.  I know what Romans 11 says, but that's not a matter of God restoring us to Israel, that's the rest of Israel, i.e. the rest of the natural branches embracing the Lordship of Christ Jesus.  They reconcile themselves with us rather than the other way around because of some idea somewhere about God having unconditional covenants with Israel that are most definitely conditional all over the Bible (ex: Deuteronomy chapters 28 and 30).  Plus, God is a debtor to no man and to no tribe:

So the LORD gave to Israel all the land of which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they took possession of it and dwelt in it... Not a word failed of any good thing which the LORD had spoken to the house of Israel. All came to pass. (Joshua 21:43,45)

God owes natural Israel NOTHING, but He will bring them to Christ Jesus in the fullness of time when it suits Him.  Christ Jesus is the center of eschatology and not Israel.  Israel is the rich man that's still burning in Hell, desiring a drop of water for their tongue and warnings to be given to their descendants.

The most holy has been anointed and everlasting righteousness has been brought in, therefore Daniel's 70th week is totally fulfilled.  We still have time because of numerous Scriptures like Isaiah 53 that say that God would prolong days so that the pleasure of the Lord could prosper in His hand.  God takes pleasure in the prosperity of His servants, according to the Psalms.  The millenium isn't already here, so don't confuse what I'm saying with amillenialism.  The millenium is yet totally future, if we didn't enter it with this decade and some unusual prophetic fulfillments that began this decade.  The millenium isn't begun by the return of Christ Jesus.  It's begun with an outpouring of the Holy Spirit.  Jesus fighting with the sword of His mouth is a common picture in Scripture with regards to the gifts of the Spirit operating in the lives of believers. 

People are raised from the dead in Revelation 20 to reign with Christ, but is Christ raised from the dead at that time?  No, He was raised from the dead 2000 years ago and has been reigning all of this time after the Order of Melchezedec.  Reigning with Christ doesn't imply Christ Jesus being bodily among us.  I've been reigning with the anointing all of this time 'cause of Romans 5 and countless other passages.  Christ Jesus's coming is in Revelation 21:3, if not a few verses earlier with the raising of the dead to face the White Throne Judgment.  The Greek says in Revelation 20 that the souls of those that had been martyred with an actual ax are raised to reign with Christ.  It doesn't even say that their bodies are raised from the dead.  Scripturally, He's obligated to give no one immortality prior to 1Corinthians 15:28.  Believers that reign with Christ during the thousand years are the same ones that are reigning with Him now through the Word, faith, His Blood, and the anointing.  There's nothing in Scripture that necessitates that they're immortals during the millenium.  Christians are blessed with Abraham, according to Romans 4 and Galatians 3, "for whom those things were written," that they're heir of the world.  The whole Creation is ours now.  Jew/Gentile distinctions have been taken away in Christ and will never be restored.

[Tony N]

During the millennium they will bring sacrifices:


Isa 56:7 I bring them also to My holy mountain, and I make them rejoice in My house of prayer. Their ascent approaches and their sacrifices shall ascend for acceptance on My altar, for My house a house of prayer shall be called, for all the peoples,

Isa 66:20-23  And they bring all your brethren from all the nations as an approach present to Yahweh, on horses, and in chariots, and in coaches, and on mules, and in saddle baskets, to My holy mountain, Jerusalem,says Yahweh, "As the sons of Israel are bringing their approach present in a clean vessel to the house of Yahweh."  (21)  And moreover, from them, to Me will I take for priests and for Levites,says Yahweh."  (22)  For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make, will stand before Me,averring is Yahweh, "So stand shall your seed and your name."  (23)  And it comes, according to the monthly quota in its month, and according to the sabbath quota in its sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me in Jerusalem,says Yahweh."

Jer 33:18 And to the priests--the Levites, Not cut off from before Me is one, Causing a burnt-offering to ascend, And perfuming a present, and making sacrifice--all the days.'"

Zec 14:16-21  And it shall come to be that everyone left of all the nations coming against Jerusalem, shall also go up, a quota, year by year, to worship the King, Yahweh of hosts, and to celebrate the celebration of booths."  (17)  And it comes, whoever will not go up from the families of the earth, to Jerusalem to worship the King, Yahweh of hosts, then the downpour shall not come on them."  (18)  And if a family of Egypt shall not go up, and shall not come, then it is not on them; to it shall come the stroke with which Yahweh will strike all the nations, which will not go up to celebrate the celebration of booths."  (19)  This shall be the sin of Egypt, and the sin of all the nations, that will not go up to celebrate the celebration of booths."  (20)  In that day there shall be on the horse shades: Holy to Yahweh of hosts. And the pots in the house of Yahweh shall be as sprinkling bowls before the altar.  (21)  And every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall come to be holy to Yahweh of hosts. And all who are sacrificing shall come and take of them and cook in them. And no longer shall there be a trafficker in the house of Yahweh of hosts, in that day."

Mal 3:3-4  And he shall sit as a refiner and cleanser of silver and gold. And he shall cleanse the sons of Levi, and cupel them as gold and as silver. And they shall come to be for Yahweh, bringing close the approach present in righteousness."  (4)  Then the approach present of Judah and Jerusalem is congenial to Yahweh, as in the days of the eon, and as in former years."

The Mosaic covenant is done away by the new.
The millennium will not be a time of returning to the old covenant but  going forward to the new. "Heb 7:12 For, the priesthood being transferred, of necessity there is coming to be a transference of law also.

Jesus will be physically present instead of the Shechinah glory presence along with the ark of the covenant; a new priestly order from the sons of Zadok (Ezek. 40:46; 43:19; 48:11) instead of the Levites. There will be a new Temple measuring one mile square (Ezek. 40:48-41:26) instead of the much smaller one Solomon constructed.

There are references to the sacrificial systems:

These references include: "new moons and Sabbaths . . . all the appointed feasts" (Ezek. 44:24; 45:17; 46:3,11-12), "daily offerings" (Ezek. 46:13-14),"burnt offerings, grain offerings, and the libations" (Ezek.45:17; 46:2, 4, 11-15), "blood sacrifices" (Ezek.43:20), an "altar" for burnt offering (Ezek. 40:47;43:13-27), an "altar" for incense offering (Ezek. 41:22),"boiling places" to "boil the sacrifices of the people" (Ezek. 46:23-24); a "Zadokite" priesthood to "offer Me the fat and the blood" (Ezek. 40:46;42:13-14: 43:19; 44:15-16; 48:11), a "Levitical" priesthood to "slaughter the burnt offering" (Ezek. 44:10-11; 48:22). Furthermore, the offerings are stated to be for "a sin offering" (Ezek. 43:22, 25;44:24, 29) and to "make atonement" (Ezek. 43:20;45:25). Since the sacrifices andsacrificial personnel are so prominent throughout these chapters, the future sacrifices cannot be avoided.

By the way, Taffy or Nathan, did you go here: "This Generation" http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HeShallSaveHisPeople/thisgen.html

What exactly is wrong with it if there is something wrong with it?

Tony

[Molly]

Reigning with Christ doesn't imply Christ Jesus being bodily among us.

Yes, I just realized that recently.  But doesn't it require that we be perfected in Him?  Doesn't it require us to be also part of the priesthood?  And, having the mind of Christ?

There's nothing in Scripture that necessitates that they're immortals during the millenium. 

If we are part of the Melchizedek priesthood, we are immortal by definition.

[Molly]

Tony, give me one good reason in your own words why God would return to animal sacrifice after the cross.  It makes no sense.



26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

--Hebrews 10

[Taffy]

Reigning with Christ doesn't imply Christ Jesus being bodily among us.

Yes, I just realized that recently.  But doesn't it require that we be perfected in Him?  Doesn't it require us to be also part of the priesthood?  And, having the mind of Christ?

There's nothing in Scripture that necessitates that they're immortals during the millenium. 

If we are part of the Melchizedek priesthood, we are immortal by definition.

Molly,

For mine as weve talked about on a few occasions, the last one on the 1000 yr thread, what we reign over IS DEATH,...

Is this what youve come to se, if not what do we reign ove

[Taffy]

By the way, Taffy or Nathan, did you go here: "This Generation" http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HeShallSaveHisPeople/thisgen.html

not as yet Tony, but im sure it will be a Mixing of the spiritual and Natural, like everything else i seem to read...

:icon_flower:

[Taffy]

Yo Martin
Im with you with much of what You state,...but theres a few areas Im a Miss on...I cant always read you Bro , Not your fault , a Little like Craig you talk over my head,...I often get my wife , whos far more educated than I , to read too,...as I hope to Glean something through what you post...but she too struggles.

:icon_flower:

[Nathan]

I am still unable to reply to the other thread.

Tony, I read "portions" of the website . . .and the more I read, the more it felt like chains were being wrapped around me.  I know that sounds like I'm over dramatizing it but there "is" this "binding" feeling when I read articles that want me to relive a part of my life that's in my past.

It is as Taf has said.  We are coming at this from two opposite spectrums.  And in the flesh it's very frustrating because you aren't swaying me and I'm not swaying you.  But I can't help but look at the over all spiritual body . .why do I want to be the one that changes the minds of others when my own message is one that speaks to the fact that it's not men changing the minds of men, but it's the Spirit of Life.  Perhaps where you are both spiritually and physically, you are needed to see things as you do in order for God to use you in the pocket of humanity that you physically live in.  Any body MUST have opposites to have any balance.

But what makes the body as one body is when these opposites come under the direction and instruction of the head.  There are a lot of things a right hand can do . . .but there are a lot of things a right hand can't do.  You ever try to scratch your right shoulder with your right hand?  Or . . .if you surgically removed your left hand and sew on another right hand . . . do you still think you could scratch your right shoulder?

On this forum, there are many body parts.  One of our problems with the church in general is that each church tries to reproduce "one" body part.  Rather than each church consisting of all different parts, it has convinced itself that each church "must" be "one" part.  But that's not what being "one" in Christ is.  Being one in Christ is understanding we're coming from different perspectives and as we post on the boards, we "allow" each other to share what is in the right hand, and what is in the left hand . .so the whole body in the forum can benefit from both.  We may be opposites, but that's what is required in order for there to be a perfect fit.

You ever use your right hand to try to shake someone else's right hand?  Yeah, it fits perfectly doesn't it.  Know why?  Because the two people facing each other are facing "opposite" directions.

I guess what I'm saying is . . .it's important everyone reading the boards has the opportunity to see all sides to the issues without those presenting their side either coming under attack from another, or going on attack against another.  Let the body benefit from both spectrums.  There's no condemnation. 

That's not to say we still won't frustrate each other from time to time .  .and in those times, I pray that God will again remind me, the body needs both hands in order to function effectively.

Okay, having said that . . . my deal on the temple is . . .if rebuilding it doesn't really mean anything . .then why was it so necessary for it to be detroyed in the first place?

[Tony N]

Tony, give me one good reason in your own words why God would return to animal sacrifice after the cross.  It makes no sense.

I'll give you a couple instead of one:

• The bible says there will be sacrifices
• Because it is a means that God will use to show them the real meaning of sacrifice.
• Besides that, I don't think that the sacrifices are for sin but for approach.

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

That is saying Christ can't come and be a sacrifice for sins again.

[Tony N]

I am still unable to reply to the other thread.

Tony, I read "portions" of the website . . .and the more I read, the more it felt like chains were being wrapped around me.  I know that sounds like I'm over dramatizing it but there "is" this "binding" feeling when I read articles that want me to relive a part of my life that's in my past.

What is binding to one man is another man's freedom from binding.

I'll make it very simple so you won't need that Malox moment:

"UNDER no circumstances should you be finishing the cities of Israel till the Son of Mankind may be coming" (Matt.10:23b).

"Verily I am saying to you that there are some of those standing here who under no circumstances should be tasting death till they should be perceiving the Son of Mankind coming in His kingdom" (Matt.16:28; cp Luke 9:27). "Verily I am saying to you that by no means may this generation be passing by till all these things should be occurring" (Matt.24:34; cp Mark 13:30; Luke 21:32).

Jim Coram wrote:
"It is indeed important to believe what the Scriptures say. Yet the deeper question still remains: In what sense is what the Scriptures say to be understood. As we approach this question of the time of Christ's appearing, whether it is past or future, it should first of all be noted that in the Original, each of these statements of Jesus concerning His appearing (e.g., Matt.10:23b; 16:28; 24:34) is expressed in the subjunctive mood, sometimes with the conditional particle an (EVER) included. These grammatical features are reflected in the Concordant Version by the auxiliaries "should" and "may.""

The "subjuntive mood" is just saying one thing depends upon another. For instance, I have a pen in my hand. The pen may be falling should I loose my grip on the pen.

Do you see that? Should and may represent provisional statements. It is to be understood that certain things may come to pass based upon certain things coming to pass which would cause what Christ said should come to pass.

Be loosed from your binding in Jesus Name!

Tony

[martincisneros]

Yo Martin
Im with you with much of what You state,...but theres a few areas Im a Miss on...I cant always read you Bro , Not your fault , a Little like Craig you talk over my head,...

I'm a little over my own head, right now.  I just know what God's been speaking to me about for a couple of years.  I was premillenial dispensationalist all of the days of my life until 2 years ago.  And then, first, it was an odd correcting that started happening through my preaching.  I started talking about Christ not coming back until the New Earth.  I'd never heard of it before.  Had never read the writings of B.B. Warfield, H.A.W. Meyer, Loraine Boettner, and R. J. Rushdoony.  To be perfectly honest, I still haven't.  Would probably clear some things up for me quicker if I would, but I've been taking it slowly since even my premillenialism came under attack by the Holy Spirit. 

When that started happening to me a couple of years ago, I started reading [aloud] the book of Revelation from the Concordant and from Scarlett's from start to finish four to six times a day and doing a whole lot of praying.  Last year in frustration, or not really frustration, but just being a little tired 'cause although I was seeing a lot out of reading Revelation for myself rather than relying on what I'd been taught all of my life, but I wasn't satisfied that I was seeing the whole picture yet.  I happened to google the book of Revelation and wikipedia's article on it came up.  And within a link or two of that page I bumped into their article on Postmillenialism and realized that that's where I'd been going.  I'd never heard of it before.  John Calvin's exegesis of the Lord's prayer supposedly goes there with the Postmillenial perspective, and Spurgeon supposedly defended Postmillenialism in one message that I haven't found yet -- yet at all other times he was emphatically Premillenial.  I haven't found that Spurgeon sermon either, but being the T.D. Jakes of his day, I can easily understand how some moments for him would have been more inspired than others.  I could show you a stack of videos where T.D. Jakes is emphatically and very, very dogmatically UR -- to the point where he makes most of us look totally backslidden from it -- and yet at other times his theology gets in the way with the traditional view. 

Many days I'm studying this about 16+hrs a day 'cause I'm determined to have it worked out before my 34th birthday.  I've seen enough to where I don't think that I could return to Premillenialism.  There's just enough annoyances to keep me from going there again.  It's sorta like an ETer seeing some of the promises without the religious lenses and seeing through the aion shell game played by the theologians.  Although they might still be annoyed by not yet being at rest by ages of ages, the occasional destruction passage, and maybe Matthew 25 if they haven't gotten that fully worked out yet, they can still be at the place where they know it's between UR and Annihilationism.  That's sorta where I'm at.  I'm fully UR, so don't misunderstand me.  What I'm saying is that the coming of the Lord after the millenium is way too plain to me, and Revelation 19 not being the Second Coming is way too plain to me.  Other things are likewise way too plain to me. 

Yet, I still don't have answers for all that Tony's brought up yet.  I know that the Scriptures don't contradict each other, and that the Hosea 2:18 covenant is a covenant of deliverance for the animals from all of this.  I'm confident that the timing on that is now 'cause of Mark 5, Isaiah 30, and numerous other passages.  Partial preterism makes sense to me 'cause futuristic perspectives on prophecy have seldom not been fully clear to me.  St. Paul was speaking some things to his world without a doubt when he said that marriage isn't the best of ideas and getting really comfortable in your marriage isn't a good idea because this world -- not our world, but his world -- is about to go straight to Hell.  And it did with 70AD and other calamities.  I don't have all of the answers, but per Mark 11:24, I will have 'em very soon.  Can't remember if it's Andrew Jukes or whose book it was that said "name a subject where there aren't these apparent contradictions at first, second, and third glance!"

I'm certain that it's Andrew Jukes' book that says that the very form that the written Word is in is a part of our disciplining from our Father.  I've wondered, off and on over the years, since so many of the prophecies were written to Israel -- how many of them could follow the same format as the promises that if they do this, then God will do that, but if they do this, then God will do something else entirely to where it's God's invitation to us to be co-re-Creators with Him.  So that it's not so much a contradiction but a choice on the world that we have, whether a Judaized one or an Intergalactic one.  St. Paul said what he said.  Yet we still have page after page after page in the Old Testament where God was going to smash into a greasy spot all of these filthy Gentiles.  Same with the animals, yet Jeremiah 31:27-28 says all of that's over.  Same with the two possible types of Temples.  Same with the timing of our immortality.  Same with demensions of choice and Sovereignty.  Same with having lost the soul or having a soul that's under the altar.  Are we entering into His rest, or into more religion? 

I had some books when I was a little kid where you'd read to a certain point and then choose the next step and based on your choice you'd go to a certain page to read the rest of the story or until you had to pick the next change in the future.  This could get deep quickly with parallel worlds being created with each choice and how Christ Jesus would tie all of the strands of time and space back together and reunite all of the alternative realities back into the Kingdom of God per Ephesians 1:10 and that conversation hasn't always gone over well 'cause too many around here couldn't entertain the free will implication even hypothetically.

[jabcat]

Just a thought for consideration...I personally tend to think there won't be a temple rebuilt, that we are the temple, and that we are the house of God and house of prayer, but I may not be correct in that...one reason I say that is, if the church (ecclesia) are the called out people and not a building with a steeple, then in turn, how could a building with a steeple be called those things  :dontknow:...don't get that...anyway though, for the sake of this discussion, if there were a temple rebuilt/sacrifices offered, would those things necessarily have to be sanctioned (and accepted) by God?   Could it be like a lot things we do "in His name"...our own doing and not His...on the other hand, why would He have it measured?  just thoughts...I like Nathan's statements that all can have a voice about our understandings within scripture...part of how we learn  :thumbsup:.