Doomsday 2012: The End of Days

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: In type: Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He does after all, reveal Himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and He remembered His covenant with them. And, of course, the east speaks of the realm of Spirit and revelation, as His coming is as the sun/lightning from the east unto the west, from the Spirit unto the flesh.

The gifts they brought were representative of the 3 courts, ie. Abraham/gold/Holy of Holies, Isaac/frankincense/inner court, and Jacob/myrrh/outer court, so they clearly had  knowledge of the compartments of the tabernacle. And stars are as angels/messages or messengers also. My :2c: Blessings....

[Nathan]

Oh my . . . yet another one I never made the connection with before . . . OK I get the gold of Abraham (promise) the incense of prayer and worship of Isaac (laughter) but how does the myrrh fit in with the outer court?  Unless it pictures the ointment that the dead are anointed with in preparation for burial . . .which then in reverse would be . . .burial in the myrrh, death in the ground up insence . .and resurrected purity of gold . . .

Is that the connection you see with it as well?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I didn't make the connection either, He did. Myrrh speaks of the bitterness of the cross/outer court experience. Blessings....

PS. I should have added that myrrh mixed with wine was what was offered to Him on the cross, that He refused. It has a numbing effect, and that is why He refused it, because it would have comforted the flesh, ie. lust of the flesh would have lived.

[Nathan]

myrrh . . .
myrrh, a bitter gum and costly perfume which exudes from a certain tree or shrub in Arabia and Ethiopia, or is obtained by incisions made in the bark: as an antiseptic it was used for embalming

Interesting, they offered him myrrh and aloe while he was on the cross . . .he turned it away . . .and after he died, they buried him in it.

Jhn 19:39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound [weight].

[Nathan]

So . . .the wisemen were honoring the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob . . .as well as Jesus death, burial and resurrection . . .and it was the stars that led them to his feet . . .

I just think it's so ironic that the church freaks out over the very thing that led wisemen to the feet of Jesus so they could honor his purpose.  I know nothing of the literal stars as far as where the constelations are, "what" the constelations are . . .let alone the alignment of them  . .but I do know that literally . . .as the physical moon has an affect on the tides of the ocean . . .it also has an affect on our mood swings and personalities . . .literally.  We are all miniature replicas of the earth we were created from.

Just something to think about the next time you think you're going into a depression . . . I wonder if the earth is depressed when the tide is going out . . or when it's coming in . . .

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Well, it said they saw His star, singular, that was seen in the east/realm of Spirit revelation. Something to ponder, for sure......

[Molly]

What I find strange is that these strangers/scientists/businessmen/magicians traveled all that way to honor the King of the Jews, and the Jews themselves, although they know where Jesus would be born, and it's right next door, just blow the whole thing off.  Does that make sense to anyone?


The baby Jesus is first worshipped on this earth by Gentiles...



1Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

2Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

3When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.

4And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.

5And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,

6And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

7Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.

8And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.

9When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.

10When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.

11And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

12And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.

--Mat 2

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Hey Molly....I find that "strange" too......

[Nathan]

Yup, yup, yup!!!  That's how revelation begins . . .the Spirit drops these little flags in you that hold you up from just breezing through the passage . . .Dad wants ta show ya sumpn special.  :cloud9:

And it's almost always something that leads to something else . .that leads to something else . . .God is so cool!

[Molly]

13And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

14When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

15And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

--Mat 2

[Molly]

[there came] "wise men" [from the east to Jerusalem,]


G3097
μάγος
magos
mag'-os
Of foreign origin [H7248]; a Magian, that is, Oriental scientist; by implication a magician: - sorcerer, wise man.


H7248
רב־מג
rab-mâg
rab-mawg'
From H7227 and a foreign word for a Magian; chief Magian; Rab-Mag, a Babylonian official: - Rab-mag.


H7227
רב
rab
rab
By contraction from H7231; abundant (in quantity, size, age, number, rank, quality): - (in) abound (-undance, -ant, -antly), captain, elder, enough, exceedingly, full, great (-ly, man, one), increase, long (enough, [time]), (do, have) many (-ifold, things, a time), ([ship-]) master, mighty, more, (too, very) much, multiply (-tude), officer, often [-times], plenteous, populous, prince, process [of time], suffice (-ient).



H7231
רבב
râbab
raw-bab'
A primitive root; properly to cast together (compare H7241), that is, increase, especially in number; also (as denominative from H7233) to multiply by the myriad: - increase, be many (-ifold), be more, multiply, ten thousands.

[jabcat]

I'd say the majority (especially the Nation of Israel) were blinded, and God chose who He would reveal and use.  Still occurring today...working all according to HIS will.  God's blessing, James.

[WhiteWings]

WW. You quoted Jesus was born under the end of the age of Aries (the ram or lamb) and this may explain why he called himself the "lamb of God."

I'm assuming it was from Eby . .really don't know . . .but I would have to say Jesus did not call himself the lamb of God because he was referring to the sign of when he was physically born.  I would say, God established in the heavens the sign and title because they prophecy and pronounce the coming of the lamb to the world in the flesh.  All things point to Christ . . .Christ does not point to all things . . . not sure if I'm making any sense with that.

It was not from Elby. Perhaps someone that quoted Elby.
For me, in this case, there is no difference if Christ points to all things, or all things point to Christ.
It's exactly the same for me. The fact is that Jesus and all those things line up. Coincidence?
For me when God created the universe (orbits of planets and stars in this case) He tweaked them in such a way they show the right thing at the right time.
Yesterday I (partly) figured out what the star of Bethelem really was. Same thing. Tweaked design.

[WhiteWings]

One of the questions that I always ask when dealing with this subject was . . who really was it that came from the east with the gifts?  How did they find Jesus?

Now there's a revelation . . . How did they find Jesus?

Yesterday, I've been trying to figure that out. Even downloaded astronomy software for that reason.
Firstly the 3 men where chief astronomers.
They found Jesus by following as star that stopped above Jesus.
What exactly that star was is not clear; but it was (most likely) no star. Often everything that gives light is called a star. Or reflects light like our moon. I'm not saying that's correct. I'm merly saying it can be confused as such.
Just planets. Or planets in a formation of stars. Remember that astronomy requires a lot of imagination. Did you ever see Scorpio in the sky. A few stars and a lot of imagination...
Same for: Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
I think that very well could be Moon-Venus/Virgo-some starts aligned during daylight or sun on the side.
Ok back the star of Betlehem... Below some possible explanations.

Firstly planets have often secondary meanings
Jupiter - Planet of kings
Mars - War / (blood) red
Mercury - Winged Roman god
Saturn - Rules the Jews
Sun -
Regulus - King star
Venus - Queen star
Virgo - Virgin

[WhiteWings]

Suggestion #1
My favorite because it aligns with other 'calculations' I did for the birth date of Jesus.
I also strongly feel that the important dates in the life of Jesus (birth, ministry, death,...) are on Jewish holidays.
Those meaning of the holidays aligns perfectly with the phase in Jesus' mission. IMO
This variation aligns best with the holy days.

Matthew 2:2  Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
Matthew 2:9  .... they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.

Ivor Bulmer-Thomas proposes that the Bethlehem Star was simply Jupiter passing through a stationary point in its trek across the sky. When a planet undergoes retrograde motion, it makes a loop against the stars. The planet appears to be stationary at each end of the loop for about a week to the naked eye. Babylonian astronomers had a keen interest in retrograde motions and the wise men may have been at Bethlehem when Jupiter was at a stationary point. In Bulmer-Thomas' theory the
7 B.C.E. triple conjunction and near-conjunction of Mars, Jupiter,
and Saturn in 6 B.C.E. would have alerted the wise men to look for a further sign in the sky.
If they followed Jupiter from the time it emerged from behind the sun in May 5 B.C.E., they would have seen Jupiter pass through a stationary point four months later (about the length of their journey). September

[WhiteWings]

Suggestion #2
I agree with the month and day but not with the year.

A study of the now computerized data by which we can very accurately determine astronomical events of that time gives us the last piece of the puzzle to dating the birth of Christ in September of 3 B.C. In particular, the very noticeable celestial activity of Jupiter, Mars, Mercury, Regulus (the King star), and Venus (the Queen star), and their various combinations of conjunctions in Leo during the nine months leading up to Christ's birth are vital signs to determine the September birth date of our Lord Jesus. And we believe that research shows that he was born on September 11 (Tishri 1 on the Jewish calendar), on which day the sun was in Virgo, as per the prophecy in Revelation 12:1 of "a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon beneath her feet"

[WhiteWings]

Suggestion #3
One of the great astrological stories in the Bible is the story of the star of Bethlehem. It is written that the star was a sign from God signaling the birth of the Messiah into the world. The three Magi, Persian astrologer-kings, determined the time of this birth by the position of this star. In 1600, Johannes Kepler hypothesized that this star was actually a conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn. Confirmed by modern astrology, this symbolism ties in with the prophecies of that era concerning a Messiah amongst the Jews. The conjunctions occurred at the end (??? start) of Pisces, ruled by Jupiter. Jupiter is the planet of kings. Saturn is the planet that rules the Jews, thereby giving the king of the Jews. This was a very infrequent triple conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn and it occurred in the year 7 B.C.

[Molly]

The fact is that Jesus and all those things line up. Coincidence?
For me when God created the universe (orbits of planets and stars in this case) He tweaked them in such a way they show the right thing at the right time.
Yesterday I (partly) figured out what the star of Bethelem really was. Same thing. Tweaked design.

I like the way you put that, ww.   God 'tweaked' the universe like a giant Swiss clock, (indeed he 'tweaked' the whole history of mankind,)--to reveal his Son. 

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Thanks for posting those WW.....I can see astronomers coming to the birth, but I can't see astrologers coming, because of the things God says in the OT about them.

God has a sense of humor I guess: the first ones to see His birth were pagan kings, the first one to see Him raised was probably the woman who had 7 devils cast out of her. I know what the last one signifies, but the first one is bugging me and always has.  :dontknow: His ways are past finding out, if He doesn't feel like revealing them..... :winkgrin:  Blessings....

[WhiteWings]

God has a sense of humor I guess: the first ones to see His birth were pagan kings,

I know nothing about that. Question.
If they where pagan, why all the trouble of predicting, traveling to bring a gift to something they don't believe in?
I would say they would be afraid to bring such honors/gifts to Jesus they don't believe in because it most likely upsets their pagan god(s).
So perhaps they where not really pagan. Or recently converted because they say a prediction come trough?

the first ones to see His birth were pagan kings

Jesus just came to find the lost sheep. What's the best place to find that sheep? Among pagans perhaps....

[Molly]

They are a mystery--

Why would 'pagan kings' obey God?


12And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.

--Mat 2


These are people that God is talking to--


Psalm 8:4
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man [Adam], that thou visitest him?


Or why would 'pagan kings' worship another king, the King of the Jews?


11And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him:

--Mat 2


"house"

G3614
οἰκία
oikia
oy-kee'-ah
From G3624; properly residence (abstractly), but usually (concretely) an abode (literally or figuratively); by implication a family (especially domestics): - home, house (-hold).



G3624
οἶκος
oikos
oy'-kos
Of uncertain affinity; a dwelling (more or less extensive, literally or figuratively); by implication a family (more or less related, literally or figuratively): - home, house (-hold), temple.

[Cardinal]

God has a sense of humor I guess: the first ones to see His birth were pagan kings,

I know nothing about that. Question.
If they where pagan, why all the trouble of predicting, traveling to bring a gift to something they don't believe in?
I would say they would be afraid to bring such honors/gifts to Jesus they don't believe in because it most likely upsets their pagan god(s).
So perhaps they where not really pagan. Or recently converted because they say a prediction come trough?

the first ones to see His birth were pagan kings

Jesus just came to find the lost sheep. What's the best place to find that sheep? Among pagans perhaps....

:cloud9: That's a very good question and why I said it is a mystery. I don't know of any Jewish kings from other countries during that time period, do you? Yet they had knowledge they could not have had, ESPECIALLY being from other courtries, unless they were Jews from one of the diasporas, "hidden" in other countries and exalted by God like Joseph?

So perhaps not pagans except in the sense they were were from pagan lands? Or unless He saw fit to raise up some pagans and give them understanding. But to what purpose? Why was it even necessary to have 3 kings there in the first place? To give Herod a head's up? As I said, it's a mystery unless God gives someone understanding. Blessings.....

[CHB]

I think Ernest L Martin had the best explaination for when Christ was born. You can listen to tapes at the bottom of this page.

http://www.askelm.com/star/index.asp

CHB

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Thanks CHB, I'll check it out..... :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: Thanks for posting those WW.....I can see astronomers coming to the birth, but I can't see astrologers coming, because of the things God says in the OT about them.

God has a sense of humor I guess: the first ones to see His birth were pagan kings

Simply put the Magi followed the pagan believes of Zoroaster who 'stole' his idea from Daniel.

But how, we still may ask, did the heathen Magi, followers of the
  teachings of Zoroaster, hear about the prophecy Isaiah pronounced to
  the "house of David" more than seven hundred years before? Well,
  today we know for sure Zoroaster, the founder of the Persian
  religion that is called after him, lived in Babylon from about 560
  BC., at a time, when the Jews stayed in the Babylonian Captivity.
  The Jews obviously told Zoroaster about Isaiah's prophecy of the
  birth of the Messiah from a Jewish virgin of the house of David.
  Even the Syrian scholar Abu'l Faragius (1226-1286) states that when
  Zoroaster was in Babylon he became a pupil of the prophet Daniel,
  who was deported to Babylon from the land of Judah by Nebuchadnezzar
  II in 605 BC. And in his History of Dynasties Faragius further
  writes that Zoroaster had predicted to the Magi a "new star" would
  appear in the skies and signal the birth of a wonderful boy whom
  they were to adore. According to the Avesta, the bible of the
  Zoroastrians, the redeemer would be born of a virgin. When the new
  star appeared in the womb of the celestial Virgin (ERUA), the Magi
  knew the Messiah was born from a Jewish virgin, and immediately
  started on their long journey to Jerusalem in order to adore the
  new-born "King of the Jews."

http://www.biblicalfulfillment.org/id8.html