does destroy mean literally destroy?

[sheila]

God causes all things to work togather for the good of those who love Him.  Even destruction from the destroyer works

unto our eternal good.  Regarding the 'destroyer' after all the work that He purposed is done unto Zion..He then destroys the

  destroyer"

   for instance..take a teenager whose parents know the child is headed in the wrong way........they ground her,take away

phone/internet/computor....the child says..'you have destroyed my life!" You 'pruned back' their growth in the wrong direction......

you have their undivided attention..though they be sulking in their room..they come around..because you have hemmed them in on all

sides........

   God will 'ground/establish His children in righteousness" cut off communication with those who lead into wickedness and the wrong

way...and hem you in.  this occurrs when the flesh[grounded] returns unto the earth..and the whole new life and world in the

spirit/resurrection occurs.

the rebellious spirit is destroyed,lopped off..the child is saved through the destruction of that which was destroying it.

[GodIsLove]

God causes all things to work togather for the good of those who love Him.  Even destruction from the destroyer works

unto our eternal good.  Regarding the 'destroyer' after all the work that He purposed is done unto Zion..He then destroys the

  destroyer"

   for instance..take a teenager whose parents know the child is headed in the wrong way........they ground her,take away

phone/internet/computor....the child says..'you have destroyed my life!" You 'pruned back' their growth in the wrong direction......

you have their undivided attention..though they be sulking in their room..they come around..because you have hemmed them in on all

sides........

   God will 'ground/establish His children in righteousness" cut off communication with those who lead into wickedness and the wrong

way...and hem you in.  this occurrs when the flesh[grounded] returns unto the earth..and the whole new life and world in the

spirit/resurrection occurs.

the rebellious spirit is destroyed,lopped off..the child is saved through the destruction of that which was destroying it.

:thumbsup:

[Cardinal]

God causes all things to work togather for the good of those who love Him.  Even destruction from the destroyer works

unto our eternal good.  Regarding the 'destroyer' after all the work that He purposed is done unto Zion..He then destroys the

  destroyer"

   for instance..take a teenager whose parents know the child is headed in the wrong way........they ground her,take away

phone/internet/computor....the child says..'you have destroyed my life!" You 'pruned back' their growth in the wrong direction......

you have their undivided attention..though they be sulking in their room..they come around..because you have hemmed them in on all

sides........

   God will 'ground/establish His children in righteousness" cut off communication with those who lead into wickedness and the wrong

way...and hem you in.  this occurrs when the flesh[grounded] returns unto the earth..and the whole new life and world in the

spirit/resurrection occurs.

the rebellious spirit is destroyed,lopped off..the child is saved through the destruction of that which was destroying it.

  :cloud9: :thumbsup: A few years back I was doing home health, taking care of my boss's mother who had been in a car wreck. My boss, was brought up in a Spirit filled home, some things had happened to him in the church they attended as a teen, and as a result he rebelled against God. Now an adult, he was facing a lot of serious problems. One day while in prayer with her for him, God showed me him in a small, dark room and he was frantically trying to find a way out of it to no avail. When we prayed for him, I saw in the spirit, the hand of the Spirit, raise up his head (ie. He came to him as the LIFTER OF HIS HEAD) by his chin, to show him the only way out was UP. The door was in the top of the room.

Flash forward to about a week ago, and I've been studying the Hebrew letters and their meanings in depth. Much to my awe and surprise, there is a letter that is like a box, and has an opening on top, and is meant to be as a house (room), and the meanings all fall into place perfectly with what was shown to me 15 years ago. Your post reminded me of this, and fits perfectly.

He literally does hem us in on all sides, just waiting for us to cry out, and then He comes to us as the lifter of our head, to show us the way out.

Also interestingly, the top is the "north", the enemy always comes from the north. So it's not just a one way door, but depending on where the person is in the process, it's both good and evil, but only in the APPEARANCE realm, because truly what the enemy meant for evil, God meant for good. My  :2c:  Blessings....

[sheila]

amen,I can appreciate that...Christ..the head of every man..if I be lifted up I shall draw all men unto me.  the ultimate hemming in

is literal death of our flesh..and the only way out is up/resurrection.and a door opened in heaven.

   

[Truth seeker]

 :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

agree with you all and as usual many thanks. Sorry I cant reply to each one of you, had a bit of a week this last week. If it could break down or fall apart it did! including my boiler, motorbike, car needed a service and stuff at work too lol. Any how none of that matters so many thanks for the replies I realize I need to start looking back at the Hebrew and Greek meanings on many of the scriptures I see. At first it doesn't quite come across Paul is saying just their bad ways will be destroyed I felt it meant their whole existence. However it does appear ALL will be lifted up and ALL will have and will need to have that part of their life destroyed.

will reply again soon when things settle down! :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

Many, if not most, of the places where the English word "destroy" is used in the KJV and to a great extent in the New American Standard, it is a poor translation.

apollumi is "lost" or "ruined"

lythesetai is "loosed, untied, done away"

katargeitai is anulled, abolished, removed

Those words are routinely translated as destroy in verses related to eternal destiny, but rarely so in other random verses. This was due to the theological bias of the translators.

When God destroys or towers and strongholds of flesh and carnal mind, it is to save us, not to annihilate or torture us.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen. Doctrinal bias is the main stumbling block to understanding ANYTHING in there due to poor translation choice IMO.

[Truth seeker]

Many, if not most, of the places where the English word "destroy" is used in the KJV and to a great extent in the New American Standard, it is a poor translation.

apollumi is "lost" or "ruined"

lythesetai is "loosed, untied, done away"

katargeitai is anulled, abolished, removed

Those words are routinely translated as destroy in verses related to eternal destiny, but rarely so in other random verses. This was due to the theological bias of the translators.

When God destroys or towers and strongholds of flesh and carnal mind, it is to save us, not to annihilate or torture us.
[/quote

thank you , very useful to understand these translations. How wrong we have got it in the past! maybe in order to scar people into believing?  I do think any punishment/correctment will be for our good for surely this would honnor the Lord more than Torture or annihalation.

[marie glen]

:cloud9: Amen. Doctrinal bias is the main stumbling block to understanding ANYTHING in there due to poor translation choice IMO.

Amen.. It seems so crazy to me that you can point out the actual verses and actual original wordings.. but still what one is taught has such a strong hold! Guess that goes to show it's important what we (humans) allow ourselves to be taught! :faint:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I know. And that, for me, is why I feel it's so important to connect with our Hebrew roots because there has been so much obscured by the translators and the RCC and others over the centuries, that's it's unreal when you start seeing it.

Just knowing that the whole NT was very likely written in Hebrew at one point (various non-biblical sources mention this book or that book having existed in their day in the Hebrew language),plus an extant copy of Matthew makes it possible with a lot of digging, to go back and find what the *most likely* Hebrew word was used in the passage, opens up myriads of doors of understanding.

He gave me a vision once of the Word, woven as the High Priest's garment. A red thread of salvation, deliverance, the blood and the Son ran from Genesis to Revelation in an unbroken thread, IF you dug in to find it. Same way with a gold thread of divinity, fire, purification and Father. And with a white thread of righteousness, purity, cleanliness, and linen. As always, my  :2c: blessings

[marie glen]

That's awesome! I love that!  :Chinscratch: always 'new' light on His word.. or that is "treasure both old and new"!

I'm reminded, too, of a fabric which came to my mind some time ago.. that all things.. doctrines, theories, etc are like tapestries, woven with true threads and untrue threads. How every tapestry must have at least one true thread or it will fall apart and unravel. And every tapestry, except His pure/unleavened(?) word, has at least some untrue threads woven in. ("An enemy did this.") And He showed me the very tip of His sWord gently working on a tapestry, doing the intricate and delicate work of separating true from untrue threads, and vice versa..

He gave me a vision once of the Word, woven as the High Priest's garment. A red thread of salvation, deliverance, the blood and the Son ran from Genesis to Revelation in an unbroken thread, IF you dug in to find it. Same way with a gold thread of divinity, fire, purification and Father. And with a white thread of righteousness, purity, cleanliness, and linen. As always, my  :2c: blessings

   :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :cloud9:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yep, and that fabric exists. It's the veil with the cherubims (means imaginations or imaginary figures) in it, in front of the Holy of Holies, the "fabric" of the Christ in us, that is being woven. It's "made" by our partaking of the table of showbread (names of tribes/natures) in the light of the candlestick.

True communion = eating the bread/letter with the wine/Spirit.

We are pressing in for that veil to be rent IN US, so that the Father might be revealed. God was IN CHRIST, reconciling all men unto Him.

He ordered the veil to made with the cherubim in it. For this reason, no man can come to the Father except the Father call him, because we have no way of TRULY knowing what doctrine/doctrines might be even a little jot or tittle in error, without the Spirit's help, and He will give not give His glory unto another (image).

And this is how He prevents any man from saying, "I did it."  As always.....my  :2c:. Blessings....

[gregoryfl]

I like that..it ties in with..break up your fallow ground and sow not amongst thorns....and we know a field overtaken with weeds/thorns is

burned to isolate that seeding of tares/thorns from the soil.........

:thumbsup: The hidden truth behind Heb 6:8.

[gregoryfl]

Right, by itself אבד "destroy/perish/break" does not mean "utterly annihilate". 

I would add that it requires context before it can be said to mean utterly destroy.  Just a couple examples help illustrate: James 1:11 referring to plants dying (it doesn't mean the plant energy is not transformed); Matthew 5:29 referring to a body part perishing but a remainder not perishing; Matthew 9:17 referring to bottles bursting.   Looking at every instance of this word in the 1st Century Aramaic bible, you find that אבד was often used casually to describe something that simply breaks up.  So it doesn't require utter annihilation by itself.   Indeed, when the old wine skins were destroyed, they simply popped.  They were not ground to dust, and then each particle transferred into an supernatural radioactive disintegrator to be utterly annihilated from the universe. 

Regarding Ronen's translation, that is a useful study insight.  Personally, in בדל I actually see the separation component being the most literal translation in the Hebrew, but "isolation" is also fine in different contexts. I don't recall any examples where בדל is used in isolation to describe isolation itself, but that would be interesting in the bible or Hebrew literature.  Anyway, semantics, I think its most literal meaning is in reference to a noun (subject) being separated from another noun (reference point).  In many examples, the separation (being 'set apart') is meant to emphasize some degree of holiness...

There is a related root which more clearly gives this nuance of meaning...isolation resulting from separation of some sort, which is in the word בדד. But as you said, it is just a matter of semantics, and English very often falls short of describing the richness of meaning found in the source language.

Indeed, this theme of separation of light and dark continues in John 1...

The first wordplay comes from מנהר in John 1:5, "And that light in the darkness brought light and the darkness not did overtake it." This Aramaic word מנהר ("brought light") has an alternate literal translation meaning "from fight" (מנ = from; הר = fight), as in the very battle of light and dark energies being described in John 1:5.  So through division of this one word, we see a complimentary meaning in John 1:4-5, because the "light of men" in John 1:4 was divided/separated just like light and dark were separated in the beginning.

How was the light of men separated? Adam was one -- he was man, not a son of man (ברנשא) like all men after him. After his second and third separations, Cain and Abel, his separations fought amongst one another. At first it appeared that darkness (the stumbling block, the shadow) triumphed when Cain murdered Abel, but then Seth was born, and eventually Yahshua the Messiah was born from Seth's line, and so "the light of men" triumphed; John 1:5 is a true statement, "And that light in the darkness brought light, and the darkness did not overtake it." See also John 14:30, "After this I will not speak with you much, for the ruler of this world comes and in me he does not have to him anything."

The second wordplay in John 1:5 comes from the word אדרחה ("did overtake it"). This plays on two words: דרכתא ("threshing") and אדרא ("threshing floor"). It's a metaphor, light separated from dark just like wheat is separated from straw (by beating it with wood/cross on the threshing floor). Between light and dark, only one has the seed. Light has the seed; wheat has the seed. The darkness, the flesh, the straw is just the cover. The light/seed must break through the darkness. So our earth is like the threshing floor for our saga, which is a metaphor explaining why our existence here must be filled with such tribulation. Apparently we have to get the seed beaten out of us!

Love the thoughts of wordplay and connections you made concerning them.

Ronen

[greg]

Right, by itself אבד "destroy/perish/break" does not mean "utterly annihilate". 

...

Regarding Ronen's translation, that is a useful study insight.  Personally, in בדל I actually see the separation component being the most literal translation in the Hebrew, but "isolation" is also fine in different contexts. I don't recall any examples where בדל is used in isolation to describe isolation itself, but that would be interesting in the bible or Hebrew literature.  Anyway, semantics, I think its most literal meaning is in reference to a noun (subject) being separated from another noun (reference point).  In many examples, the separation (being 'set apart') is meant to emphasize some degree of holiness...

There is a related root which more clearly gives this nuance of meaning...isolation resulting from separation of some sort, which is in the word בדד. But as you said, it is just a matter of semantics, and English very often falls short of describing the richness of meaning found in the source language.

Yes, thank you for explaining that connection to בדד, I didn't see that before.  And now that you point it out, it definitely makes sense as בד is the root meaning isolation.  In Hebraic Tongue Restored, Fabre d'Olivet emphasizes the interior component of the word בד , and then adds humorously, "From the idea of separation comes that of opening; thence that of opening the mouth which is attached to this root in several idioms, and in consequence that of chattering, babbling, jesting, boasting, lying, etc." 

The things a single dalet can do! It works wonders as it grows away from the root - for example look at the difference between גלא  ("reveal") and  דגלא  ("lie") for example. 

That which is ד "of" man shows the character of man.

That is why dalet appears to be the root issue of the original post about "destroy", as we examine   אב   אבד   ("The Father destroys")

When the Father takes away the dalet in 'destruction', all that remains is the 'Father'. 

When the Father takes away the dalet in 'lying', all that remains is 'revealing'.

Just a matter of time...

(Incidentally, the lamed in בדל  is about where a separation is going to in the future, which according to biblical precedent for the chosen is holiness).

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: So happy to see the two "gregs" sharing their gleanings. Keep it up guys!  :thumbsup:

[rosered]

  :iagree:    Bex ,
Good to see Ronen  and Greg , this   light helped   ,   thanks be to God   for you  both   and  for  everyone  here   as   we all push  though the darkness  , and draw to the  Light and revelation of Gods  desire

GOD is good   and excellent in all His ways

[gregoryfl]

Thank you both, Bex and Card.  :dsunny:

[darryl]

1 Corinthians 5:5 ►

New International Version
'hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.'

Young's Literal Translation
'to deliver up such a one to the Adversary for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.'

hmmm, a very interesting view of 'destruction' in this verse.

[eaglesway]

3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."

From Helps wordstudies Biblehub

[WhiteWings]

Philippians 3:18 Many people live like enemies of the cross of Christ. I have often told you about them, and it makes me cry to tell you about them now. 19 In the end, they will be destroyed. They do whatever their bodies want, they are proud of their shameful acts, and they think only about earthly things.

Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy/apollumi both soul and body in hell.

Considering Jesus had a large focus on the spiritually and liked wordplays the last verse may not be about literal destruction at all. Not ever temporarily. Several meanings of apollumi have been given in this thread. We could translate apollumi as separation. Just as the sheep and goat judgement is a separation. Just as judgement in its very basic form is separation from good and bad behavior.
The verse can be about:
- Going into the Lake as a goat.
- Not being part of the first resurrection.
- Not being part of the millennium Kingdom.

:2c:

[darryl]

Philippians 3:18 Many people live like enemies of the cross of Christ. I have often told you about them, and it makes me cry to tell you about them now. 19 In the end, they will be destroyed. They do whatever their bodies want, they are proud of their shameful acts, and they think only about earthly things.

Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy/apollumi both soul and body in hell.

Considering Jesus had a large focus on the spiritually and liked wordplays the last verse may not be about literal destruction at all. Not ever temporarily. Several meanings of apollumi have been given in this thread. We could translate apollumi as separation. Just as the sheep and goat judgement is a separation. Just as judgement in its very basic form is separation from good and bad behavior.
The verse can be about:
- Going into the Lake as a goat.
- Not being part of the first resurrection.
- Not being part of the millennium Kingdom.

:2c:

destruction of the 'soul', not the spirit...the 'soul'..the soul of the wicked which be corrupted, perverse, unholy..this will suffer destruction, to a greater or lessor degree..this person shall ultimately be saved as by fire...the spirit shan't suffer destruction...the spirit will be saved. :dsunny:

[ps]

I realize I need to start looking back at the Hebrew and Greek meanings on many of the scriptures I see.

Any who do this, please review the concept of Etymological fallacy, the following being possible starting points
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy)
(http://www.fallacyfiles.org/etymolog.html)
but realize that where reference is made to 'current' vs historical, the same can be true of a word at pointA in history vs pointB in history, just because a word had some meaning at pointA does not mean it had the same meaning at pointB.

From that second link:
'An older, usually archaic, word from which a current word is historically derived is called its "etymon".'
'The etymological fallacy as a logical mistake results when one reasons about the etymon as if the conclusion applied to the current word. '

A fun word to review in that regard is 'egregious' - its meaning entirely flipped/negated at some point in time (perhaps single-handedly accomplished by Shakespeare?)

observation...

I observe that a number of posters have chosen to look at 'apollumi', a probable root rather than apoleia, the actual word in use in Phil 3:19. 

But, I didn't see where anyone actually looked at the use of 'apoleia', which itself appears about 18 times in the NT.  One of those times is earlier in Phil. 1:28, where Paul seems to be contrasting it with salvation.

Reviewing the actual word used, rather than a word from which it is only a presumed derivative (per strong's) might be a better starting point.

[marie glen]

When I think of "destroy" I don't think of annihilation / extinction.. But their life now.. why did people leap from towers in 1929, because they felt they were ruined.. that sort of thing..  which I think of as natural unfolding.. like the result of sin is death.. build on shifting sands, bound to fall.. that sort of thing.. "His mercy endureth forever"..

[AlfredWang]

amen,I can appreciate that...Christ..the head of every man..if I be lifted up I shall draw all men unto me.  the ultimate hemming in

is literal death of our flesh..and the only way out is up/resurrection.and a door opened in heaven.

   

In it's context, I think it should be rendered "husband and wife" instead of "man and woman."

1 Corinthians 11:3 (My rough cut with emphasis mine)
BUT (However,) I desire you to have known, that the head of every husband  is the Anointed [YHshua]; BUT (However,) [a] head of [a] wife [is] [a] husband; BUT (However,) [a] head of the Anointed [YHshua] is the God (YHWH).

Excerpted from YHV Lexicon:

man/husband (G435 masculine noun aner; a male adult. Figuratively: a husband) John 1:13

husband (G435 masculine noun aner; a male adult) – See also man/husband

woman/wife (G1135 feminine noun gyne; a female adult [that became into being from earth]. Figuratively: a wife. Possibly/figuratively: the Babylon/religious assembly personified, aka the Greek goddess/circe/enchantress/daughter of the Sun God) John 2:4

wife (G1135 feminine noun gyne; a female adult) – See also woman/wife