Just reading my bible tonight and came across:
Philippians 3 18-19 (NCV)
"18 Many people live like enemies of the cross of Christ. I have often told you about them, and it makes me cry to tell you about them now. 19 In the end, they will be destroyed. They do whatever their bodies want, they are proud of their shameful acts, and they think only about earthly things.
will their ways be destroyed or them themselves? :dontknow:
I think destroy means destroy. But..then Jesus said 'Destroy this temple and I will raise it on the 3rd day."
:cloud9: All flesh dies. I think it's more of a question of how does it LIVE? Look around you; those that live such lives destroy themselves quickly. Blessings...
helps to look at the original Greek word used, it's meaning, and which contexts it is used in connection with.
from Strong's Concordance
apóleia: destruction, loss
apoleia comes from 'apollumi'(according to HELPS Word-studies )
'apollumi' is the Greek word used in the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin, Prodigal Son..all these were lost, perished, destroyed but WERE ultimately found again !. :dsunny:
:thumbsup:
Quote from: sheila on February 09, 2016, 11:50:22 PM
I think destroy means destroy. But..then Jesus said 'Destroy this temple and I will raise it on the 3rd day."
:iagree:
Quote from: Truth seeker on February 09, 2016, 10:57:02 PM
Just reading my bible tonight and came across:
Philippians 3 18-19 (NCV)
"18 Many people live like enemies of the cross of Christ. I have often told you about them, and it makes me cry to tell you about them now. 19 In the end, they will be destroyed. They do whatever their bodies want, they are proud of their shameful acts, and they think only about earthly things.
will their ways be destroyed or them themselves? :dontknow:
◄ Philippians 3:19 ►
Text Analysis
Strong's Transliteration Greek English Morphology
3739 [e] hōn ὧν whose RelPro-GMP
3588 [e] to τὸ - Art-NNS
5056 [e] telos τέλος end [is] N-NNS
684 [e] apōleia ἀπώλεια, destruction, N-NFS
3739 [e] hōn ὧν whose RelPro-GMP
3588 [e] ho ὁ - Art-NMS
2316 [e] theos θεὸς God [is] N-NMS
3588 [e] hē ἡ [their] Art-NFS
2836 [e] koilia κοιλία belly, N-NFS
2532 [e] kai καὶ and Conj
3588 [e] hē ἡ [their] Art-NFS
1391 [e] doxa δόξα glory N-NFS
1722 [e] en ἐν [is] in Prep
3588 [e] tē τῇ the Art-DFS
152 [e] aischynē αἰσχύνῃ shame N-DFS
846 [e] autōn αὐτῶν, of them -- PPro-GM3P
3588 [e] hoi οἱ those Art-NMP
3588 [e] ta τὰ things Art-ANP
1919 [e] epigeia ἐπίγεια earthly Adj-ANP
5426 [e] phronountes φρονοῦντες. minding. V-PPA-NMP
I believe another possibility is that their soul is destroyed in 'Gehenna' but their 'spirit' is saved.A person has body, soul, and spirit (1 Thes 5:23; Heb 4:12). 'What shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?.How much better to believe and repent now and keep one's soul.
Also, It is important to recognize that some scriptures use "destroy" in a different way from that which the modern person thinks of it. We think of destruction as annihilation, or we think of it as smashing something in such a way that it is rendered useless.
It's original form has been altered. Sometimes "destroy" is used in the New Testament in the sense of refining something, so that the original form is altered to a purified form. Consider the following passage from I Peter 1:3-6 ESV and verse 7, in another translation:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials...
Verse 7
... in order that the proving of your faith, much more valuable than gold that is
being destroyed through fire and being proved , may be found for praise and glory and honour at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
The Greek word for "destroyed" here is the same word as the one in Matthew 10:28. Some translations translated the word here as "perishes".
Notice it is the proving of your faith which is much more valuable than the proving of gold.
Peter speaks of "gold that is being destroyed through fire". Now we know that gold is not annihilated or even destroyed in the sense of being rendered useless (such as a toy that is destroyed by smashing it). Rather the original form of the gold, the ore, is destroyed and the impurities removed so that after the refining process is complete, only the pure gold remains.So it is with the proving of our faith through various trials. We are refined, impurities removed until we come forth as "pure gold".
Quote from: Cardinal on February 10, 2016, 01:42:14 AM
:cloud9: All flesh dies. I think it's more of a question of how does it LIVE? Look around you; those that live such lives destroy themselves quickly. Blessings...
:iagree: :iagree: if we hear someone, in a movie for instance, say "I am going to destroy you.." we don't think of it as threatening murder..
But! The thing is - which you've hit so squarely, Cardinal, is a person's evil ways are what destroy them..
Thank you! For saying that so well! It helps me to form a solid perception of just what, in my opinion, is "God's Wrath". Yes, i believe he can (and does) get angry. After all, it says so in his word. When i, who am nobody, hear of some terrible thing someone has done to another, I grit my teeth and feel angry at the heartless dealer of pain and suffering - I don't know how our Father in heaven does it. Witnessing (even sharing) all the terrible/mean things which happen.
There's a line in Obadiah, i haven't read it for a while.. As a matter of fact I forgot all about it, but heard something about the verse the other day. (Too bad I have forgotten that too.)
I looked it up. I have Obadiah listed as the first prophet.. whether it's accurate :dontknow:
It's verse 15 - "..as you have done so shall it be done unto you, thy reward shall return upon your own head".
That's how I think of it. But that also, His anger is an energy, so it can be truthfully said, I think, that our own evil ways destroy/punish, but also He punishes.. Because He is everywhere present and all things are made of Him..
Quote from: darryl on February 10, 2016, 03:52:01 AM
helps to look at the original Greek word used, it's meaning, and which contexts it is used in connection with.
from Strong's Concordance
apóleia: destruction, loss
apoleia comes from 'apollumi'(according to HELPS Word-studies )
'apollumi' is the Greek word used in the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin, Prodigal Son..all these were lost, perished, destroyed but WERE ultimately found again !. :dsunny:
I love that! It really hit a chord with me! :Gclap:
I think destroy means destroy, but there are different types of destruction. It can mean an end to existence (destroy the building) or it can mean to put into ruin (marriage destroyed by infidelity) or a reference to status or wellness (his crimes destroyed him in the community).
:gimmefive:
Quote from: marie glen on February 10, 2016, 05:48:25 AM
Quote from: darryl on February 10, 2016, 03:52:01 AM
helps to look at the original Greek word used, it's meaning, and which contexts it is used in connection with.
from Strong's Concordance
apóleia: destruction, loss
apoleia comes from 'apollumi'(according to HELPS Word-studies )
'apollumi' is the Greek word used in the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin, Prodigal Son..all these were lost, perished, destroyed but WERE ultimately found again !. :dsunny:
I love that! It really hit a chord with me! :Gclap:
:gimmefive: :thumbsup:
Quote from: Cardinal on February 10, 2016, 01:42:14 AM
:cloud9: All flesh dies. I think it's more of a question of how does it LIVE? ...
Sorry I hacked up your quote, I just thought this part was so good all by itself! (on many levels) :HeartThrob:
For me , the truth is all works will be destroyed but the FATHERS ONLY , ALL TO HIS OWN SPIRIT AND WORD TO HIS OWN GLORY ..
ALL will know the works of God eventually
Ecc 8 God's Ways are Mysterious , It is the revealing of Jesus Christ that we Know the Father only..
...16
When I gave my heart to know wisdom and to see the task which has been done on the earth (even though one should never sleep day or night),
17and I saw every work of God,
I concluded that man cannot discover the work which has been done under the sun. Even though man should seek laboriously, he will not discover;
and though the wise man should say, "I know," he cannot discover.
No one comes to the Father except by Me John 14
The Way, the Truth, and the Life
5Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?"
6Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
7"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."...
John 6 43Jesus answered and said to them,
"Do not grumble among yourselves.
44"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;
and I will raise him up on the last day.
45"It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me....
no one has the father but the son ,
John 1 The Word Made His Dwelling among Us
...17For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.
18No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
Lo I come in the volume of a book
Hebrews 10
Christ's Sacrifice Once for All
...6IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE.
7"THEN I SAID, 'BEHOLD, I HAVE COME (IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME) TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.'"
8After saying above, "SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED,
NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them" (which are offered according to the Law),...
The BOOK OF LIFE IS THOUGH HIS OWN SPIRIT THAT LIVES in us all ....
Philippians 3;18-21 " For many are living, I have often told you about them, but now tell you even with tears, as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame. THEIR MINDS ARE SET ON EARTHLY THINGS.
BUT OUR citizenship is in heaven, and it is from there that we eagerly await a saviour, The Lord Jesus Christ, Who WILL transform our lowly bodies into the likeness of His GLORIOUS BODY, by the power that also enables Him to subject ALL things to Himself."
Correcting the mind set on earthly things- these people are not yet aware of the completeness of the cross. As Paul says this is a stumbling block for the Jews, and not smart enough for the Greeks. Correcting will be dramatic. But each in HIS APPOINTED TIME.
Quote from: darryl on February 10, 2016, 03:52:01 AM
helps to look at the original Greek word used, it's meaning, and which contexts it is used in connection with.
from Strong's Concordance
apóleia: destruction, loss
apoleia comes from 'apollumi'(according to HELPS Word-studies )
'apollumi' is the Greek word used in the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin, Prodigal Son..all these were lost, perished, destroyed but WERE ultimately found again !. :dsunny:
:dsunny: :dsunny:
Jesus said He can destroy the soul.
The Greek word is apollumi.
The Greek word "appolumi" has three basic meanings: "lose, perish, or destroy." See Strong's Concordance G622. Context can tell which of these three is most appropriate. Here are a few examples:
LOSE/LOST from "appolumi" - The salt in Matt. 5:13, "lost" its flavour. The "lost"( appolumi) sheep in the wilderness that wandered from the 99 sheep was "found" (Luke 15:6). The prodigal Son of Luke 16:24, "...was dead, and is alive again; he was lost ( appolumi) and is found."
PERISH from "appolumi" - The Apostles were afraid they would "perish" ( appolumi) in the sea (Matt. 8:25).
DESTROY/DESTRUCTION from "appolumi" - In Matt. 2:13 Joseph is warned to take Jesus to Egypt, because Herod wanted to "destroy" ( appolumi) Him.
Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy (Gk: appolumi--destroy, lose, perish) men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy (Gk: appolumi--destroy, lose, perish) this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
Later they did destroy Jesus Christ and sure enough three days later God raised (saved) Jesus from that destruction. Being "destroyed" is not permanent. Destroyed, perish and lost are virtually synonymous in the Scriptures.
:Peace2:
Quote from: joeteekay on February 11, 2016, 05:18:49 PM
Jesus said He can destroy the soul.
The Greek word is apollumi.
The Greek word "appolumi" has three basic meanings: "lose, perish, or destroy." See Strong's Concordance G622. Context can tell which of these three is most appropriate. Here are a few examples:
LOSE/LOST from "appolumi" - The salt in Matt. 5:13, "lost" its flavour. The "lost"( appolumi) sheep in the wilderness that wandered from the 99 sheep was "found" (Luke 15:6). The prodigal Son of Luke 16:24, "...was dead, and is alive again; he was lost ( appolumi) and is found."
PERISH from "appolumi" - The Apostles were afraid they would "perish" ( appolumi) in the sea (Matt. 8:25).
DESTROY/DESTRUCTION from "appolumi" - In Matt. 2:13 Joseph is warned to take Jesus to Egypt, because Herod wanted to "destroy" ( appolumi) Him.
Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy (Gk: appolumi--destroy, lose, perish) men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy (Gk: appolumi--destroy, lose, perish) this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
Later they did destroy Jesus Christ and sure enough three days later God raised (saved) Jesus from that destruction. Being "destroyed" is not permanent. Destroyed, perish and lost are virtually synonymous in the Scriptures.
:Peace2:
Thanks for your work on appolumi. I appreciate the comparative study that you have done on the word's usage.
I am wondering, however, where the bible says that Jesus said he can destroy the soul?
Thanks,
Pat
By the way, I think I have read almost all of your posts for the last couple of years, and I enjoy your work! I was in Ottawa last year and I wanted to get a hold of you, but ended up working the whole 3 days I was there. :sigh:
Quote from: joeteekay on February 11, 2016, 05:18:49 PM
Jesus said He can destroy the soul.
The Greek word is apollumi.
The Greek word "appolumi" has three basic meanings: "lose, perish, or destroy." See Strong's Concordance G622. Context can tell which of these three is most appropriate. Here are a few examples:
LOSE/LOST from "appolumi" - The salt in Matt. 5:13, "lost" its flavour. The "lost"( appolumi) sheep in the wilderness that wandered from the 99 sheep was "found" (Luke 15:6). The prodigal Son of Luke 16:24, "...was dead, and is alive again; he was lost ( appolumi) and is found."
PERISH from "appolumi" - The Apostles were afraid they would "perish" ( appolumi) in the sea (Matt. 8:25).
DESTROY/DESTRUCTION from "appolumi" - In Matt. 2:13 Joseph is warned to take Jesus to Egypt, because Herod wanted to "destroy" ( appolumi) Him.
Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy (Gk: appolumi--destroy, lose, perish) men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy (Gk: appolumi--destroy, lose, perish) this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
Later they did destroy Jesus Christ and sure enough three days later God raised (saved) Jesus from that destruction. Being "destroyed" is not permanent. Destroyed, perish and lost are virtually synonymous in the Scriptures.
:Peace2:
:cloud9: WOW....thanks....all I can say right now reading this triggered a "flash" in me, connecting things I didn't know were connected. Now I got to study them out.....love it when He does that. Thank God for making us to be pieces of the same body, that nourish each other. :banana: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: joeteekay on February 11, 2016, 05:18:49 PM
Jesus said He can destroy the soul.
The Greek word is apollumi.
The Greek word "appolumi" has three basic meanings: "lose, perish, or destroy." See Strong's Concordance G622. Context can tell which of these three is most appropriate. Here are a few examples:
LOSE/LOST from "appolumi" - The salt in Matt. 5:13, "lost" its flavour. The "lost"( appolumi) sheep in the wilderness that wandered from the 99 sheep was "found" (Luke 15:6). The prodigal Son of Luke 16:24, "...was dead, and is alive again; he was lost ( appolumi) and is found."
PERISH from "appolumi" - The Apostles were afraid they would "perish" ( appolumi) in the sea (Matt. 8:25).
DESTROY/DESTRUCTION from "appolumi" - In Matt. 2:13 Joseph is warned to take Jesus to Egypt, because Herod wanted to "destroy" ( appolumi) Him.
Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy (Gk: appolumi--destroy, lose, perish) men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy (Gk: appolumi--destroy, lose, perish) this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
Later they did destroy Jesus Christ and sure enough three days later God raised (saved) Jesus from that destruction. Being "destroyed" is not permanent. Destroyed, perish and lost are virtually synonymous in the Scriptures.
:Peace2:
:thumbsup: :dsunny:
Quote from: Patinak on February 11, 2016, 06:30:41 PM
Thanks for your work on appolumi. I appreciate the comparative study that you have done on the word's usage.
I am wondering, however, where the bible says that Jesus said he can destroy the soul?
Thanks,
Pat
By the way, I think I have read almost all of your posts for the last couple of years, and I enjoy your work! I was in Ottawa last year and I wanted to get a hold of you, but ended up working the whole 3 days I was there. :sigh:
Thanks Pat
Jesus can destroy the soul.
Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Joe
Very nice discussion all! Definitely a product of the diverse parts all bringing together for the building up of the body.
In the Aramaic tradition, the usual word used for destroy in the 1st century writings is אביד (Abiyd). It's Hebrew relative אבד (Abad).
The root of this word is בד, which indicate the action of isolation. A related word is found in Genesis 1:4, where Elohim בדל (badal) the light from the darkness. Translated usually as 'separate', a more precise translation would be 'isolate'.
The א (aleph) at the beginning of abiyd and abad add the nuance of something being prepared, cultivated, such as what an ox would be used to do with a plow in breaking up the soil so that seeds can be sown. Therefore, this is an isolation that involves cultivation, or preparation, for something. It is not isolation simply for the purpose of isolation.
A hint of this can be found in the use of the word in Leviticus 26. Verse 38 says that rebellious Israel would אבד in the nations, being devoured by their enemies (an idiom meaning to go into captivity). So does this אבד mean the end of Israel?
Verse 44 goes on to say that Elohim would not reject or loathe them so as to finish them. They would be isolated from their homeland for a time, but eventually, as many other scriptures bring out, restored. That is the aleph behind the isolation, a preparation for something greater, for something precious that is lost is all the more appreciated when found, something ruined is all the more precious when restored.
Ronen
I like that..it ties in with..break up your fallow ground and sow not amongst thorns....and we know a field overtaken with weeds/thorns is
burned to isolate that seeding of tares/thorns from the soil.........
Rev 9;1,2,11 under Bex post yesterday..Alarm sounded..under christian living.
Quote from: gregoryfl on February 11, 2016, 08:23:37 PM
Very nice discussion all! Definitely a product of the diverse parts all bringing together for the building up of the body.
In the Aramaic tradition, the usual word used for destroy in the 1st century writings is אביד (Abiyd). It's Hebrew relative אבד (Abad).
The root of this word is בד, which indicate the action of isolation. A related word is found in Genesis 1:4, where Elohim בדל (badal) the light from the darkness. Translated usually as 'separate', a more precise translation would be 'isolate'.
The א (aleph) at the beginning of abiyd and abad add the nuance of something being prepared, cultivated, such as what an ox would be used to do with a plow in breaking up the soil so that seeds can be sown. Therefore, this is an isolation that involves cultivation, or preparation, for something. It is not isolation simply for the purpose of isolation.
A hint of this can be found in the use of the word in Leviticus 26. Verse 38 says that rebellious Israel would אבד in the nations, being devoured by their enemies (an idiom meaning to go into captivity). So does this אבד mean the end of Israel?
Verse 44 goes on to say that Elohim would not reject or loathe them so as to finish them. They would be isolated from their homeland for a time, but eventually, as many other scriptures bring out, restored. That is the aleph behind the isolation, a preparation for something greater, for something precious that is lost is all the more appreciated when found, something ruined is all the more precious when restored.
Ronen
Right, by itself אבד "destroy/perish/break" does not mean "utterly annihilate".
I would add that it requires
context before it can be said to mean utterly destroy. Just a couple examples help illustrate: James 1:11 referring to plants dying (it doesn't mean the plant energy is not transformed); Matthew 5:29 referring to a body part perishing but a remainder not perishing; Matthew 9:17 referring to bottles bursting. Looking at every instance of this word in the 1st Century Aramaic bible, you find that אבד was often used casually to describe something that simply breaks up. So it doesn't require utter annihilation by itself. Indeed, when the old wine skins were destroyed, they simply popped. They were not ground to dust, and then each particle transferred into an supernatural radioactive disintegrator to be utterly annihilated from the universe.
Regarding Ronen's translation, that is a useful study insight. Personally, in בדל I actually see the separation component being the most literal translation in the Hebrew, but "isolation" is also fine in different contexts. I don't recall any examples where בדל is used in isolation to describe isolation itself, but that would be interesting in the bible or Hebrew literature. Anyway, semantics, I think its most literal meaning is in reference to a noun (subject) being separated from another noun (reference point). In many examples, the separation (being 'set apart') is meant to emphasize some degree of holiness...
Indeed, this theme of separation of light and dark continues in John 1...
The first wordplay comes from מנהר in John 1:5, "And that light in the darkness brought light and the darkness not did overtake it." This Aramaic word מנהר ("brought light") has an alternate literal translation meaning "from fight" (מנ = from; הר = fight), as in the very battle of light and dark energies being described in John 1:5. So through division of this one word, we see a complimentary meaning in John 1:4-5, because the "light of men" in John 1:4 was divided/separated just like light and dark were separated in the beginning.
How was the light of men separated? Adam was one -- he was man, not a son of man (ברנשא) like all men after him. After his second and third separations, Cain and Abel, his separations fought amongst one another. At first it appeared that darkness (the stumbling block, the shadow) triumphed when Cain murdered Abel, but then Seth was born, and eventually Yahshua the Messiah was born from Seth's line, and so "the light of men" triumphed; John 1:5 is a true statement, "And that light in the darkness brought light, and the darkness did not overtake it." See also John 14:30, "After this I will not speak with you much, for the ruler of this world comes
and in me he does not have to him anything."
The second wordplay in John 1:5 comes from the word אדרחה ("did overtake it"). This plays on two words: דרכתא ("threshing") and אדרא ("threshing floor"). It's a metaphor, light separated from dark just like wheat is separated from straw (by beating it with wood/cross on the threshing floor). Between light and dark, only one has the seed. Light has the seed; wheat has the seed. The darkness, the flesh, the straw is just the cover. The light/seed must break through the darkness. So our earth is like the threshing floor for our saga, which is a metaphor explaining why our existence here must be filled with such tribulation. Apparently we have to get the seed beaten out of us!
Quote from: Patinak on February 11, 2016, 06:30:41 PM
Quote from: joeteekay on February 11, 2016, 05:18:49 PM
Jesus said He can destroy the soul.
The Greek word is apollumi.
The Greek word "appolumi" has three basic meanings: "lose, perish, or destroy." See Strong's Concordance G622. Context can tell which of these three is most appropriate. Here are a few examples:
LOSE/LOST from "appolumi" - The salt in Matt. 5:13, "lost" its flavour. The "lost"( appolumi) sheep in the wilderness that wandered from the 99 sheep was "found" (Luke 15:6). The prodigal Son of Luke 16:24, "...was dead, and is alive again; he was lost ( appolumi) and is found."
PERISH from "appolumi" - The Apostles were afraid they would "perish" ( appolumi) in the sea (Matt. 8:25).
DESTROY/DESTRUCTION from "appolumi" - In Matt. 2:13 Joseph is warned to take Jesus to Egypt, because Herod wanted to "destroy" ( appolumi) Him.
Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy (Gk: appolumi--destroy, lose, perish) men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy (Gk: appolumi--destroy, lose, perish) this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
Later they did destroy Jesus Christ and sure enough three days later God raised (saved) Jesus from that destruction. Being "destroyed" is not permanent. Destroyed, perish and lost are virtually synonymous in the Scriptures.
:Peace2:
I am wondering, however, where the bible says that Jesus said he can destroy the soul?
seemingly in Matthew 10:28 although it's not stated who it is who does the 'destroying'.Some say Jesus some say God some say the Devil. So, there seems to be some controversy over exactly what this verse means.Obviously the filth encrusted sin ridden soul of an impenitent person needs to be 'destroyed' but out of that 'destruction' will come ultimate good.
God causes all things to work togather for the good of those who love Him. Even destruction from the destroyer works
unto our eternal good. Regarding the 'destroyer' after all the work that He purposed is done unto Zion..He then destroys the
destroyer"
for instance..take a teenager whose parents know the child is headed in the wrong way........they ground her,take away
phone/internet/computor....the child says..'you have destroyed my life!" You 'pruned back' their growth in the wrong direction......
you have their undivided attention..though they be sulking in their room..they come around..because you have hemmed them in on all
sides........
God will 'ground/establish His children in righteousness" cut off communication with those who lead into wickedness and the wrong
way...and hem you in. this occurrs when the flesh[grounded] returns unto the earth..and the whole new life and world in the
spirit/resurrection occurs.
the rebellious spirit is destroyed,lopped off..the child is saved through the destruction of that which was destroying it.
Quote from: sheila on February 12, 2016, 07:30:35 PM
God causes all things to work togather for the good of those who love Him. Even destruction from the destroyer works
unto our eternal good. Regarding the 'destroyer' after all the work that He purposed is done unto Zion..He then destroys the
destroyer"
for instance..take a teenager whose parents know the child is headed in the wrong way........they ground her,take away
phone/internet/computor....the child says..'you have destroyed my life!" You 'pruned back' their growth in the wrong direction......
you have their undivided attention..though they be sulking in their room..they come around..because you have hemmed them in on all
sides........
God will 'ground/establish His children in righteousness" cut off communication with those who lead into wickedness and the wrong
way...and hem you in. this occurrs when the flesh[grounded] returns unto the earth..and the whole new life and world in the
spirit/resurrection occurs.
the rebellious spirit is destroyed,lopped off..the child is saved through the destruction of that which was destroying it.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: sheila on February 12, 2016, 07:30:35 PM
God causes all things to work togather for the good of those who love Him. Even destruction from the destroyer works
unto our eternal good. Regarding the 'destroyer' after all the work that He purposed is done unto Zion..He then destroys the
destroyer"
for instance..take a teenager whose parents know the child is headed in the wrong way........they ground her,take away
phone/internet/computor....the child says..'you have destroyed my life!" You 'pruned back' their growth in the wrong direction......
you have their undivided attention..though they be sulking in their room..they come around..because you have hemmed them in on all
sides........
God will 'ground/establish His children in righteousness" cut off communication with those who lead into wickedness and the wrong
way...and hem you in. this occurrs when the flesh[grounded] returns unto the earth..and the whole new life and world in the
spirit/resurrection occurs.
the rebellious spirit is destroyed,lopped off..the child is saved through the destruction of that which was destroying it.
:cloud9: :thumbsup: A few years back I was doing home health, taking care of my boss's mother who had been in a car wreck. My boss, was brought up in a Spirit filled home, some things had happened to him in the church they attended as a teen, and as a result he rebelled against God. Now an adult, he was facing a lot of serious problems. One day while in prayer with her for him, God showed me him in a small, dark room and he was frantically trying to find a way out of it to no avail. When we prayed for him, I saw in the spirit, the hand of the Spirit, raise up his head (ie. He came to him as the LIFTER OF HIS HEAD) by his chin, to show him the only way out was UP. The door was in the top of the room.
Flash forward to about a week ago, and I've been studying the Hebrew letters and their meanings in depth. Much to my awe and surprise, there is a letter that is like a box, and has an opening on top, and is meant to be as a house (room), and the meanings all fall into place perfectly with what was shown to me 15 years ago. Your post reminded me of this, and fits perfectly.
He literally does hem us in on all sides, just waiting for us to cry out, and then He comes to us as the lifter of our head, to show us the way out.
Also interestingly, the top is the "north", the enemy always comes from the north. So it's not just a one way door, but depending on where the person is in the process, it's both good and evil, but only in the APPEARANCE realm, because truly what the enemy meant for evil, God meant for good. My :2c: Blessings....
amen,I can appreciate that...Christ..the head of every man..if I be lifted up I shall draw all men unto me. the ultimate hemming in
is literal death of our flesh..and the only way out is up/resurrection.and a door opened in heaven.
:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:
agree with you all and as usual many thanks. Sorry I cant reply to each one of you, had a bit of a week this last week. If it could break down or fall apart it did! including my boiler, motorbike, car needed a service and stuff at work too lol. Any how none of that matters so many thanks for the replies I realize I need to start looking back at the Hebrew and Greek meanings on many of the scriptures I see. At first it doesn't quite come across Paul is saying just their bad ways will be destroyed I felt it meant their whole existence. However it does appear ALL will be lifted up and ALL will have and will need to have that part of their life destroyed.
will reply again soon when things settle down! :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Many, if not most, of the places where the English word "destroy" is used in the KJV and to a great extent in the New American Standard, it is a poor translation.
apollumi is "lost" or "ruined"
lythesetai is "loosed, untied, done away"
katargeitai is anulled, abolished, removed
Those words are routinely translated as destroy in verses related to eternal destiny, but rarely so in other random verses. This was due to the theological bias of the translators.
When God destroys or towers and strongholds of flesh and carnal mind, it is to save us, not to annihilate or torture us.
:cloud9: Amen. Doctrinal bias is the main stumbling block to understanding ANYTHING in there due to poor translation choice IMO.
Quote from: eaglesway on February 15, 2016, 06:18:36 AM
Many, if not most, of the places where the English word "destroy" is used in the KJV and to a great extent in the New American Standard, it is a poor translation.
apollumi is "lost" or "ruined"
lythesetai is "loosed, untied, done away"
katargeitai is anulled, abolished, removed
Those words are routinely translated as destroy in verses related to eternal destiny, but rarely so in other random verses. This was due to the theological bias of the translators.
When God destroys or towers and strongholds of flesh and carnal mind, it is to save us, not to annihilate or torture us.
[/quote
thank you , very useful to understand these translations. How wrong we have got it in the past! maybe in order to scar people into believing? I do think any punishment/correctment will be for our good for surely this would honnor the Lord more than Torture or annihalation.
Quote from: Cardinal on February 15, 2016, 12:12:59 PM
:cloud9: Amen. Doctrinal bias is the main stumbling block to understanding ANYTHING in there due to poor translation choice IMO.
Amen.. It seems so crazy to me that you can point out the actual verses and actual original wordings.. but still what one is taught has such a strong hold! Guess that goes to show it's important what we (humans) allow ourselves to be taught! :faint:
:cloud9: I know. And that, for me, is why I feel it's so important to connect with our Hebrew roots because there has been so much obscured by the translators and the RCC and others over the centuries, that's it's unreal when you start seeing it.
Just knowing that the whole NT was very likely written in Hebrew at one point (various non-biblical sources mention this book or that book having existed in their day in the Hebrew language),plus an extant copy of Matthew makes it possible with a lot of digging, to go back and find what the *most likely* Hebrew word was used in the passage, opens up myriads of doors of understanding.
He gave me a vision once of the Word, woven as the High Priest's garment. A red thread of salvation, deliverance, the blood and the Son ran from Genesis to Revelation in an unbroken thread, IF you dug in to find it. Same way with a gold thread of divinity, fire, purification and Father. And with a white thread of righteousness, purity, cleanliness, and linen. As always, my :2c: blessings
That's awesome! I love that! :Chinscratch: always 'new' light on His word.. or that is "treasure both old and new"!
I'm reminded, too, of a fabric which came to my mind some time ago.. that all things.. doctrines, theories, etc are like tapestries, woven with true threads and untrue threads. How every tapestry must have at least one true thread or it will fall apart and unravel. And every tapestry, except
His pure/unleavened(?) word, has at least some untrue threads woven in. ("An enemy did this.") And He showed me the very tip of His sWord gently working on a tapestry, doing the intricate and delicate work of separating true from untrue threads, and vice versa..
Quote from: Cardinal on February 15, 2016, 09:32:33 PM
He gave me a vision once of the Word, woven as the High Priest's garment. A red thread of salvation, deliverance, the blood and the Son ran from Genesis to Revelation in an unbroken thread, IF you dug in to find it. Same way with a gold thread of divinity, fire, purification and Father. And with a white thread of righteousness, purity, cleanliness, and linen. As always, my :2c: blessings
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :cloud9:
:cloud9: Yep, and that fabric exists. It's the veil with the cherubims (means imaginations or imaginary figures) in it, in front of the Holy of Holies, the "fabric" of the Christ in us, that is being woven. It's "made" by our partaking of the table of showbread (names of tribes/natures) in the light of the candlestick.
True communion = eating the bread/letter with the wine/Spirit.
We are pressing in for that veil to be rent IN US, so that the Father might be revealed. God was IN CHRIST, reconciling all men unto Him.
He ordered the veil to made with the cherubim in it. For this reason, no man can come to the Father except the Father call him, because we have no way of TRULY knowing what doctrine/doctrines might be even a little jot or tittle in error, without the Spirit's help, and He will give not give His glory unto another (image).
And this is how He prevents any man from saying, "I did it." As always.....my :2c:. Blessings....
Quote from: sheila on February 11, 2016, 08:36:14 PM
I like that..it ties in with..break up your fallow ground and sow not amongst thorns....and we know a field overtaken with weeds/thorns is
burned to isolate that seeding of tares/thorns from the soil.........
:thumbsup: The hidden truth behind Heb 6:8.
Quote from: greg on February 11, 2016, 10:38:26 PM
Right, by itself אבד "destroy/perish/break" does not mean "utterly annihilate".
I would add that it requires context before it can be said to mean utterly destroy. Just a couple examples help illustrate: James 1:11 referring to plants dying (it doesn't mean the plant energy is not transformed); Matthew 5:29 referring to a body part perishing but a remainder not perishing; Matthew 9:17 referring to bottles bursting. Looking at every instance of this word in the 1st Century Aramaic bible, you find that אבד was often used casually to describe something that simply breaks up. So it doesn't require utter annihilation by itself. Indeed, when the old wine skins were destroyed, they simply popped. They were not ground to dust, and then each particle transferred into an supernatural radioactive disintegrator to be utterly annihilated from the universe.
Regarding Ronen's translation, that is a useful study insight. Personally, in בדל I actually see the separation component being the most literal translation in the Hebrew, but "isolation" is also fine in different contexts. I don't recall any examples where בדל is used in isolation to describe isolation itself, but that would be interesting in the bible or Hebrew literature. Anyway, semantics, I think its most literal meaning is in reference to a noun (subject) being separated from another noun (reference point). In many examples, the separation (being 'set apart') is meant to emphasize some degree of holiness...
There is a related root which more clearly gives this nuance of meaning...isolation resulting from separation of some sort, which is in the word בדד. But as you said, it is just a matter of semantics, and English very often falls short of describing the richness of meaning found in the source language.
QuoteIndeed, this theme of separation of light and dark continues in John 1...
The first wordplay comes from מנהר in John 1:5, "And that light in the darkness brought light and the darkness not did overtake it." This Aramaic word מנהר ("brought light") has an alternate literal translation meaning "from fight" (מנ = from; הר = fight), as in the very battle of light and dark energies being described in John 1:5. So through division of this one word, we see a complimentary meaning in John 1:4-5, because the "light of men" in John 1:4 was divided/separated just like light and dark were separated in the beginning.
How was the light of men separated? Adam was one -- he was man, not a son of man (ברנשא) like all men after him. After his second and third separations, Cain and Abel, his separations fought amongst one another. At first it appeared that darkness (the stumbling block, the shadow) triumphed when Cain murdered Abel, but then Seth was born, and eventually Yahshua the Messiah was born from Seth's line, and so "the light of men" triumphed; John 1:5 is a true statement, "And that light in the darkness brought light, and the darkness did not overtake it." See also John 14:30, "After this I will not speak with you much, for the ruler of this world comes and in me he does not have to him anything."
The second wordplay in John 1:5 comes from the word אדרחה ("did overtake it"). This plays on two words: דרכתא ("threshing") and אדרא ("threshing floor"). It's a metaphor, light separated from dark just like wheat is separated from straw (by beating it with wood/cross on the threshing floor). Between light and dark, only one has the seed. Light has the seed; wheat has the seed. The darkness, the flesh, the straw is just the cover. The light/seed must break through the darkness. So our earth is like the threshing floor for our saga, which is a metaphor explaining why our existence here must be filled with such tribulation. Apparently we have to get the seed beaten out of us!
Love the thoughts of wordplay and connections you made concerning them.
Ronen
Quote from: gregoryfl on February 16, 2016, 12:34:32 AM
Quote from: greg on February 11, 2016, 10:38:26 PM
Right, by itself אבד "destroy/perish/break" does not mean "utterly annihilate".
...
Regarding Ronen's translation, that is a useful study insight. Personally, in בדל I actually see the separation component being the most literal translation in the Hebrew, but "isolation" is also fine in different contexts. I don't recall any examples where בדל is used in isolation to describe isolation itself, but that would be interesting in the bible or Hebrew literature. Anyway, semantics, I think its most literal meaning is in reference to a noun (subject) being separated from another noun (reference point). In many examples, the separation (being 'set apart') is meant to emphasize some degree of holiness...
There is a related root which more clearly gives this nuance of meaning...isolation resulting from separation of some sort, which is in the word בדד. But as you said, it is just a matter of semantics, and English very often falls short of describing the richness of meaning found in the source language.
Yes, thank you for explaining that connection to בדד, I didn't see that before. And now that you point it out, it definitely makes sense as בד is the root meaning
isolation. In
Hebraic Tongue Restored, Fabre d'Olivet emphasizes the interior component of the word בד , and then adds humorously, "From the idea of separation comes that of opening; thence that of opening the mouth which is attached to this root in several idioms, and in consequence that of chattering, babbling, jesting, boasting, lying, etc."
The things a single dalet can do! It works wonders as it grows away from the root - for example look at the difference between גלא ("reveal") and דגלא ("lie") for example.
That which is ד "of" man shows the character of man.
That is why dalet appears to be the root issue of the original post about "destroy", as we examine אב אבד ("The Father destroys")
When the Father takes away the dalet in 'destruction', all that remains is the 'Father'.
When the Father takes away the dalet in 'lying', all that remains is 'revealing'.
Just a matter of time...
(Incidentally, the lamed in בדל is about where a separation is going
to in the future, which according to biblical precedent for the chosen is holiness).
:cloud9: So happy to see the two "gregs" sharing their gleanings. Keep it up guys! :thumbsup:
:iagree: Bex ,
Good to see Ronen and Greg , this light helped , thanks be to God for you both and for everyone here as we all push though the darkness , and draw to the Light and revelation of Gods desire
GOD is good and excellent in all His ways
Thank you both, Bex and Card. :dsunny:
1 Corinthians 5:5 ►
New International Version
'hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.'
Young's Literal Translation
'to deliver up such a one to the Adversary for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.'
hmmm, a very interesting view of 'destruction' in this verse.
3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."
From Helps wordstudies Biblehub
Philippians 3:18 Many people live like enemies of the cross of Christ. I have often told you about them, and it makes me cry to tell you about them now. 19 In the end, they will be destroyed. They do whatever their bodies want, they are proud of their shameful acts, and they think only about earthly things.
Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy/apollumi both soul and body in hell.
Considering Jesus had a large focus on the spiritually and liked wordplays the last verse may not be about literal destruction at all. Not ever temporarily. Several meanings of apollumi have been given in this thread. We could translate apollumi as separation. Just as the sheep and goat judgement is a separation. Just as judgement in its very basic form is separation from good and bad behavior.
The verse can be about:
- Going into the Lake as a goat.
- Not being part of the first resurrection.
- Not being part of the millennium Kingdom.
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 20, 2016, 06:40:27 AM
Philippians 3:18 Many people live like enemies of the cross of Christ. I have often told you about them, and it makes me cry to tell you about them now. 19 In the end, they will be destroyed. They do whatever their bodies want, they are proud of their shameful acts, and they think only about earthly things.
Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy/apollumi both soul and body in hell.
Considering Jesus had a large focus on the spiritually and liked wordplays the last verse may not be about literal destruction at all. Not ever temporarily. Several meanings of apollumi have been given in this thread. We could translate apollumi as separation. Just as the sheep and goat judgement is a separation. Just as judgement in its very basic form is separation from good and bad behavior.
The verse can be about:
- Going into the Lake as a goat.
- Not being part of the first resurrection.
- Not being part of the millennium Kingdom.
:2c:
destruction of the 'soul', not the spirit...the 'soul'..the soul of the wicked which be corrupted, perverse, unholy..this will suffer destruction, to a greater or lessor degree..this person shall ultimately be saved as by fire...the spirit shan't suffer destruction...the spirit will be saved. :dsunny:
Quote from: Truth seeker on February 14, 2016, 08:00:39 PM
I realize I need to start looking back at the Hebrew and Greek meanings on many of the scriptures I see.
Any who do this, please review the concept of Etymological fallacy, the following being possible starting points
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy))
(http://www.fallacyfiles.org/etymolog.html (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/etymolog.html))
but realize that where reference is made to 'current' vs historical, the same can be true of a word at pointA in history vs pointB in history, just because a word had some meaning at pointA does not mean it had the same meaning at pointB.
From that second link:
'An older, usually archaic, word from which a current word is historically derived is called its "etymon".'
'The etymological fallacy as a logical mistake results when one reasons about the etymon as if the conclusion applied to the current word. '
A fun word to review in that regard is 'egregious' - its meaning entirely flipped/negated at some point in time (perhaps single-handedly accomplished by Shakespeare?)
observation...
I observe that a number of posters have chosen to look at 'apollumi', a probable root rather than apoleia, the actual word in use in Phil 3:19.
But, I didn't see where anyone actually looked at the use of 'apoleia', which itself appears about 18 times in the NT. One of those times is earlier in Phil. 1:28, where Paul seems to be contrasting it with salvation.
Reviewing the actual word used, rather than a word from which it is only a presumed derivative (per strong's) might be a better starting point.
When I think of "destroy" I don't think of annihilation / extinction.. But their life now.. why did people leap from towers in 1929, because they felt they were ruined.. that sort of thing.. which I think of as natural unfolding.. like the result of sin is death.. build on shifting sands, bound to fall.. that sort of thing.. "His mercy endureth forever"..
Quote from: sheila on February 13, 2016, 09:17:52 AM
amen,I can appreciate that...Christ..the head of every man..if I be lifted up I shall draw all men unto me. the ultimate hemming in
is literal death of our flesh..and the only way out is up/resurrection.and a door opened in heaven.
In it's context, I think it should be rendered "husband and wife" instead of "man and woman."
1 Corinthians 11:3 (My rough cut with emphasis mine)
BUT (However,) I desire you to have known, that the head of every husband is the Anointed [YHshua]; BUT (However,) [a] head of [a] wife [is] [a] husband; BUT (However,) [a] head of the Anointed [YHshua] is the God (YHWH).
Excerpted from YHV Lexicon:
man/husband (G435 masculine noun
aner; a male adult. Figuratively: a husband) John 1:13
husband (G435 masculine noun
aner; a male adult) – See also
man/husbandwoman/wife (G1135 feminine noun
gyne; a female adult [that became into being from earth]. Figuratively: a wife. Possibly/figuratively: the Babylon/religious assembly personified, aka the Greek goddess/circe/enchantress/daughter of the Sun God) John 2:4
wife (G1135 feminine noun
gyne; a female adult) – See also
woman/wife
Quote from: sheila on February 09, 2016, 11:50:22 PM
I think destroy means destroy. But..then Jesus said 'Destroy this temple and I will raise it on the 3rd day."
Excerpts from YHV Lexicon:
destroy/lose (G622 verb
apollymi; to destroy/lose, to be ruined/lost. Antonym of
save/find) John 3:16
E.g. John 3:16
For the God so loved the world, therefore He gave the only-begotten the son of His, in order that the every [human] having faith TO him should NOT
lose [himself] (aorist middle Subjunctive), but may have aionios life;
E.g. Luke 15:24
because this son of me was dead, and lived again; was being
lost, and was found.'
E.g. Matthew 15:24
BUT the [one] answering said, "I was not SENT supposing NOT TO the sheep being
lost; the [sheep] of Israel's house."
E.g. John 18:9
In order that the word should be fulfilled, which he said that, 'Whom Thou hast given to me, I
lost not: not even one out of them.'
destruction (G684 feminine noun
apoleia; a loss/ruin. Figuratively: a waste, the antonym of safety/salvation) John 17:12
perish (middle Voice verb
apollymi; to destroy/lose [oneself/itself], to be ruined/lost) – See
destroy/lose-----------------
destruction – See
ruination (masculine noun
olethros; the ruin/destruction. Figuratively: the death)
ruination (G3639 masculine noun
olethros; the ruin/destruction. Figuratively: the death) 1Corinthians 5:5
ruination – See
decay (feminine noun
diaphthora; the thorough ruination/corruption [of the body]),
destruction (feminine noun
apoleia; a loss/ruin. Figuratively: a waste),
bursting (neuter noun
rhegma; something torn, a breaking/ruin)
decay (G1312 feminine noun
diaphthora; the thorough ruination/corruption/decay [of the body]) Acts 2:27
-----------------
perish – See
disfigure (verb
aphanizo; to cause to vanish, to disappear),
ruin (verb
diaphtheiro; to decay/destroy thoroughly)
disfigure (G853 verb
aphanizo; to cause to vanish, to disappear) Matthew 6:16
ruin (G1311 verb
diaphtheiro; to decay/rot/destroy thoroughly) Luke 12:33
-----------------
corrupt (G5351 verb
phtheiro; to mar/ruin) 1Corinthians 3:17
corruptible (G5349 adjective
phthartos; capable of being corrupted/decayed) Romans 1:23
corruption (G5356 feminine noun
phthora; decay) Romans 8:21
corruption – See
decay (feminine noun
diaphthora; the thorough ruination/corruption/decay [of the body])
Hebrews 1:4 and Revelation 3:12
Research...
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