Pastor has some questions

[jabcat]

New thread OK James?  I've got a few things to follow up on that would probably be better elsewhere so as to not hijack Gary's thread...

[reFORMer]

Sure.  I've got to retire for the night though.

[preistsplace]

Num 16:28 And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.
Num 16:29 If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the LORD hath not sent me.
Num 16:30 But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD.
Num 16:31 And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them:
Num 16:32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods.
Num 16:33 They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.
Num 16:34 And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also.
Num 16:35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.
Oh no it certainly was not an act of God, then whose act was it??

This guy is a pastor, and trying to prove the existance of hell then what are these verses doing there, although he is not the first to use them for that purpose.
This story is what happened when Some Isrealites rebelled against Moses and Aaron, because the thought themselves equal to Moses. God destroyed them in this manner so that none of the Israelites could say that it was a political action.

[legoman]

:cloud9: Yes legoman I was referring to that. In the ABSENCE of Spirit given revelation about it, I think from what He's shown me, that their "glory" is based on what they believe, in the sense that He meets them all where they are at, and where they are at is what they themselves have created out of the imaginations of their own hearts/minds.

We are changed (perception also) from glory to glory. So if they are still perceiving strictly under the letter/glory of the law, that explains why they themselves have "put" themselves there, because that is the only glory they were able to perceive. But eventually He comes as the lifter of their head anyway, raising them up to be with Him (perception also). Am I getting the words out right? Blessings....

Yes I get what you are saying.  I just view that all as point #2:  They are deceived.

I think what you are saying is God gives them over to the deceptions of their own mind.  They believe it.  They believe the strong delusion, for now, because that is what God has let them believe.

And I shouldn't be so harsh, as its all for God's purposes, even Mary Baxter!

Peace...

[WhiteWings]

Num 16:30 But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD.
......
Num 16:33 They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit,

This guy is a pastor, and trying to prove the existance of hell then what are these verses doing there, although he is not the first to use them for that purpose.

Read as:
- Hell opened it mouth
- De bottomles s pit of earth/hell openend.

That is the proof of hell.....

[preistsplace]

Point taken, but that is not the version he quoted.

[Molly]

1 John 1:5
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

[lsmann2]

Gary,
My grandfather used to tell me, "You can't out-stink a manure pile".
My grampa was a Universalist back when A.E. Knoch used to stop at his farm on his way from Minneapolis to California in the 20's and 30's. They had to hold thier meetings in a one-room school house 'cause no church would let Knoch in the door.
(I found that out from one of my uncles after my dad died three years ago.)
I don't subscribe to everything I've read about UR from the Concordant folks,, but You would have been digging in a manure pile if you'd have broached the subject with me ten years ago.
What I mean by that is that God, over time, used varied means, and different people to show me the truth of UR. Before that time, no amount of "reason" or evidence would have changed my mind. I was a "manure pile" of systematic theology. God knows who He will reveal this truth to. We need only present the Gospel in a clear voice. God will work the rest out, and He's working all toward His goal!

Lee

[Tim B]

Gary,
My grandfather used to tell me, "You can't out-stink a manure pile".
My grampa was a Universalist back when A.E. Knoch used to stop at his farm on his way from Minneapolis to California in the 20's and 30's. They had to hold thier meetings in a one-room school house 'cause no church would let Knoch in the door.
(I found that out from one of my uncles after my dad died three years ago.)
I don't subscribe to everything I've read about UR from the Concordant folks,, but You would have been digging in a manure pile if you'd have broached the subject with me ten years ago.
What I mean by that is that God, over time, used varied means, and different poeple to show me the truth of UR. Before that time, no amount of "reason" or evidence would have changed my mind. I was a manure pile of systematic theology. God knows who He will reveal this truth to. We need only present the Gospel in a clear voice. God will work the rest out, and He's working all toward His goal!

Lee

Same here man! I'm only 20 (almost 21), but I've gone through a lot of "Hell" to get to the point where God showed me UR. It took a lot of pain, thinking, and an ever expanding of my mind, to get to the point where I was ready to accept the truly good news. God works in complex ways!

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Wow....only 20 and He's already shown you UR.....what a quick work He is doing in you. PTL! Blessings to you....

[Tim B]

:cloud9: Wow....only 20 and He's already shown you UR.....what a quick work He is doing in you. PTL! Blessings to you....

I'm very happy! :) I've gone through a lot of "Hell" as I've said. God must have been using it to refine and prepare me for UR!  :bigGrin: Even faster work is He doing in my sister (who is currently 13 years old), as she totally agrees with me, and even encouraged the idea of UR in her own mind, even before I came to believe! (In fact, for a bit of time I was a hindrance to her full acceptance of the truly Good News, because at the time I believed in annihilation. That changed just a few months afterwards though, thankfully!)

And blessings to you as well, Cardinal!  :thumbsup:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hi Gary here is how I would respond.

I can see that you are a Master on your own when it comes to interpret and accept/reject God's own WORD.

You are calling God a liar as wel as JESUS when he speaks of hell as a place of eternal separation from God and torment.

First and foremost it seems that your argument comes from the standpoint that you believe the point of view you object to denies the existance of hell.  In basic form that is untrue, the rejection is simply that whatever "hell" can be argued to be will not last forever.   Within Christian universalism there is disagreement on that no different than the variations of it's eternal severity within the religious paradigm you accept.   The rest of my reply, is from the standpoint that each point you make is implying that it supports the eternal nature of what is called "HELL".

I simply reject the intepretation that is asserted as true in that regard and can be rightly questioned as such.  Scripture tells us to reason together, not become divided, will you reason or ignore scripture and act in a divisive nature?

You intepret that Jesus spoke of Hell as a place of eternal torment.  I question the traditionally accepted aspect of Gods word.

(Matthew 25:46)  And, these, shall go away, into, age-abiding, correction, but, the righteous, into, age-abiding, life.

Jesus says nothing of eternal torment here and it is from the Rotherham which is but one translation.  I am willing to discuss translational issues with you, but I will not address them in this reply.

How do you interpret   
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
These 2 people had died physicaly, yet they had a state of consciousness     soul/spirit.

Again, you are implying that the word hell in this passage must be a place of eternal torment so lets go to Gods word again.

Lk 16:23 And in the unseen, lifting up his eyes, existing in torments, he is seeing Abraham from afar, and Lazarus in his bosom.
or
(Luke 16:23)  And, in hades, lifting up his eyes, being in torments, he seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Some translations use the word "grave" this is because Hell at one time did NOT carry the definition of "place of eternal torment" it was "to cover or conceal"   

How do you interpret:
Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

You forgot the punch line.

(Mark 9:49)  For, everyone, with fire, shall be salted.

The above passage is a reference to God corrective nature which is eternal.

Oh yes, I know, you would rather say that this is all symbolic and figurative. God is a loving God and He would never do such a thing.
I see, people like Lenin, Stalin and Hitler who murdered MILLIONS on people created in the image of GOD, for whom Jesus died and shed His precious blood for mankind, are either awaiting judgement are sitting in Heaven because God is such a mercifull God. God will just turn His Face the other way and forget the horrors, pain and extermination that these people inflicted and caused on millions upun millions of innocent people.

In the way God has it planned to reconcile all things yes, and by grace he will do this for you too.   

I will be surprised if you believe that God destroyed the whole human race in the time of Noah. Oh no it did not happen!!, it is just pure immagination and speculation on the part of the writer of the book of Genesis. Oh no it was not GOD that destryed the Human race. Perhaps it was Noah himsef that killed all the people, he just got fed up with their sins. Or maybe it never really happened. It is just the product of a careless and senseless immaginative writer that had nothing better to do!!.
What about the account in:

There are lots of ways to look at this and discuss, but the most important one is that God is not limited by mans earthly death under any circumstances. 

Num 16:28 And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.
Num 16:29 If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the LORD hath not sent me.
Num 16:30 But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD.
Num 16:31 And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them:
Num 16:32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods.
Num 16:33 They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.
Num 16:34 And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also.
Num 16:35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.
Oh no it certainly was not an act of God, then whose act was it??

Few will argue that God judges man in some way, I will not hash out the differences because that is not the issue, the issue is that Gods judgments are corrective in nature, therefore whatever man must go through to be corrected will not last forever so the idea of an eternal place of punishment is contradictory to Gods nature.

Do you know that the word pit here stands for SHEOL/HELL.
Bill Wiese: The man God took to Hell and back. Literally!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhfsxIS5fG8

Even though a person can be shown to be VERY unwise just to take someones word for something as so many people have done with Bill here, I have realized that the whole ordeal is possibly not seen in the correct way.  Giving the benefit of the doubt is something we all as believers should consider.  ***IF*** this indeed proves anything then this proves that God in his glorious love has actually shown us that Hell is not a place of hopelessness after all, because a man was sent there and did not stay for eternity.   That is entirely scriptural too. 

Ps 86:13 For great [is] thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

No back pedalling on the word hell please, just understand that the intepretational value you rest upon is proven to be questionable.   One of the periods of torment we can face is seeing that all we have believed most of our lives is a lie.

I will not argue with anyone that we are to share the glorious gospel with people in hope that they come to the truth and avoid any amount of time where hopelessness enters their life.

This man died...and returned..Heaven and Hell are real?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li1iiQzEwXE

The state of what is translated to the words heaven and hell are a reality according to the bible,  the interpretation that hell is a place of eternal torment is a different argument.

She Went To Hell! (Part 1 The Introduction) -Mary K. Baxter at EFCC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHfVDPHHedI
Please reconsider your position on the WORD of GOD!!!!!
Pastor Victor Belo

As with Bill, they have made claims that feed your acceptance of a certain intepretation, they have not proven anything. It cannot be proven nor disproven, and that fact alone does not mean that anyone should believe on the basis of "what if they are right". There is not one scripture that will approve of believing anything for that reason.  The scripture is full of promises that mankind will be brought to the truth and reconciled, we do not have to rely on "what if".

[Raggedy Anne]

As with Bill, they have made claims that feed your acceptance of a certain intepretation, they have not proven anything. It cannot be proven nor disproven, and that fact alone does not mean that anyone should believe on the basis of "what if they are right". There is not one scripture that will approve of believing anything for that reason.  The scripture is full of promises that mankind will be brought to the truth and reconciled, we do not have to rely on "what if".

An excellent point.   Are we motivated by fear or love?  I think our natural man is motivated by fear and the new man after Christ follows after love. 

Anne

[Roy Monis]

 

You are calling God a liar as wel as JESUS when he speaks of hell as a place of eternal separation from God and torment

Pastor Victor Belo

I would lean more in favour of it being you who is calling God and Jesus Christ liars.

1.............................. "Turn to Me and be saved, ALL the ends of
                                 the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by   
                                 Myself,  the word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and
                                 will not turn back, that to Me every knee will bow, every
                                 tongue will swear allegiance. They will say of
                                 Me, 'Only in the Lord are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to
                                 Him, and all who were angry at Him will be put to shame." [color]
                                (Isa.45:23-24).

2........................ "For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do
                          not return there without watering the earth and making it bear and sprout,
                          furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater; so will My word be
                          which goes forth from My mouth; it will not return to Me empty, without
                          accomplishing what I desire, and without succeeding in the matter for which
                          I sent it."   (Isa.55:10-11).         

3...................... This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who
                         desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the
                         truth. (1Tim.2:4).


That is the Word of God and it is very clear. And athough man lies the Scriptures don't. So from my understanding of it, it reads ALL men will come to knowledge of God, not just you pastor. In which case I'd pin the label on you and say that you are calling God and our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ Liars.

In one instance God has failed to accomplish His will, and His Word that went out of His mouth has returned to him empty in which case you're saying He's a liar. And in the other Our Lord and Saviour of ALL men has failed by saving only a few, including you of course we must not forget that. So what it amounts to in you're case is; God is a liar and our Lord Jesus Christ is a failure. Am I right pastor?

Love

Roy    (UK)

[scotr]

I don't have much to add here but perhaps my  :2c: can contribute just a tad.

As one that slogged his way out of Calvinism mostly because it was just so distasteful and later attained the good biblical evidence to support the move ... and as one who is not UR but definitely being uplifted and edified by the concept ... the original poster's demeanor is decidedly pharisee like.

The 'attitude' just jumps off the page at you.  Here is a man upbraiding others who obviously love Jesus with all their heart as if they are heretics and practicing apostasy.  I wouldn't speak to a sun worshipper with such lack of respect.

What does this say to us regarding the calvinistic mindset?  I know of what I speak because I was deeply drenched in such despair once myself.  It just makes you mean.  It is truly amazing how the established churchians hate UR.  This says a LOT.

[Doc]

You should ask your pastor, that if God is omniscient, did God create Hitler knowing that he would kill millions of people and then go to Hell? Because, if God did, then Paul is a liar when he claims that God wishes all men to be saved. Either God wishes this but creates people knowing they'll go to Hell (and thus, GOES AGAINST HIS OWN WILL), or God made them to be saved but just couldn't quite save them (and thus, God failed). Either way, God is put in a bind, and only UR solves the dilemma.

Besides, UR doesn't teach that all men will easily be saved (so Hitler isn't sitting in Heaven while God simply forgets all his atrocities against the human race), only that, in the end, all men will be saved, even if that means going through age-lasting correction!

Good points, Tim.

One point perhaps worth considering on the "UR doesn't teach all will be easily saved..." issue: The apostle Paul, in his own way, was a Hitler of his day (Paul himself even claims to be the chief of sinners) and he was 'saved' in a matter of seconds (at least the initial precipitating event). I don't know that God would necessarily have to work much harder on Hitler. I don't think that God views saving any individual as a matter of difficulty, merely timing. "Each in his own order".

Don't get me wrong, I don't think God will simply forget all the atrocities either without "giving to each according to what has been done in the body", but....