Tentmaker Forum

The Following is an email I received from a pastor. Perhaps those of you on this board would like to provide him some answers. Here it is:

I can see that you are a Master on your own when it comes to interpret and accept/reject God's own WORD.

You are calling God a liar as wel as JESUS when he speaks of hell as a place of eternal separation from God and torment.

From THE BIBLE HELL
The author ventures to hope that any one who will read candidly, not permitting the bias of an erroneous education to warp his judgment, will not fail to agree with the conclusions of this book,----that the doctrine of unending sin and woe finds no support in the Bible teachings concerning Hell.

How do you interpret   
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
These 2 people had died physicaly, yet they had a state of consciousness     soul/spirit.

How do you interpret:
Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Oh yes, I know, you would rather say that this is all symbolic and figurative. God is a loving God and He would never do such a thing.
I see, people like Lenin, Stalin and Hitler who murdered MILLIONS on people created in the image of GOD, for whom Jesus died and shed His precious blood for mankind, are either awaiting judgement are sitting in Heaven because God is such a mercifull God. God will just turn His Face the other way and forget the horrors, pain and extermination that these people inflicted and caused on millions upun millions of innocent people.

I will be surprised if you believe that God destroyed the whole human race in the time of Noah. Oh no it did not happen!!, it is just pure immagination and speculation on the part of the writer of the book of Genesis. Oh no it was not GOD that destryed the Human race. Perhaps it was Noah himsef that killed all the people, he just got fed up with their sins. Or maybe it never really happened. It is just the product of a careless and senseless immaginative writer that had nothing better to do!!.
What about the account in:

Num 16:28 And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.
Num 16:29 If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the LORD hath not sent me.
Num 16:30 But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD.
Num 16:31 And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them:
Num 16:32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods.
Num 16:33 They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.
Num 16:34 And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also.
Num 16:35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.
Oh no it certainly was not an act of God, then whose act was it??

Do you know that the word pit here stands for SHEOL/HELL.
Bill Wiese: The man God took to Hell and back. Literally!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhfsxIS5fG8
This man died...and returned..Heaven and Hell are real?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li1iiQzEwXE
She Went To Hell! (Part 1 The Introduction) -Mary K. Baxter at EFCC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHfVDPHHedI
Please reconsider your position on the WORD of GOD!!!!!
Pastor Victor Belo

you might send him these pdf. files, feel free to use them if you want, I've posted them there:

http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=386

http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=355

Good stuff as I said before.
There is also tons of good stuff on the main page of this site.
The pastor has read/studied Gary's stuff and still isn't convinced.
And if 1000's of pages of UR book from the 'Scholars corner" don't convince you. Well.....

What I notice is that that pastor makes fun of teh UR interpretation of verses but doesn't really explain why that interpretation is wrong. That's hopeful :winkgrin:

Quote from: Pastor Victor Belo on May 28, 2009, 04:17:48 PM
The Following is an email I received from a pastor. Perhaps those of you on this board would like to provide him some answers. Here it is:

I can see that you are a Master on your own when it comes to interpret and accept/reject God's own WORD.

You are calling God a liar as wel as JESUS when he speaks of hell as a place of eternal separation from God and torment.

A different interpretion of verses and a different view on Bible translations isn't about rejecting Father/Son/HS but attempt to come closer to their words.

QuoteHow do you interpret:
Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

How many of you ET friends have cut off hand sand just 1 eye? Or is the fire literal and the cuting of hands symbolic?

QuoteOh yes, I know, you would rather say that this is all symbolic and figurative.

QuoteMar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Oh yes, I know, you would rather say that this is all symbolic and figurative.

My guess is that Gary doesn't deny 1 letter written in the original verses.
The whole (UR) point is that the KJV translation isn't accurate enough to build a doctine on.
UR is not a way of saying: "God should do things this way and not as He has written down in the KJV"
It's more a way of saying": "God wrote this but the message was (partly) lost in translation."

QuoteGod is a loving God and He would never do such a thing.
I see, people like Lenin, Stalin and Hitler who murdered MILLIONS on people created in the image of GOD,

Sorry to say but those 2 line contracdict what you are saying. In ET terms "They backfire"  :laughing7:
Lenin/Hitler/Stalin are creataed in the image of God. But Noach/Job/David/etc are also created in the image of God.
So what does that say about God? How does that support your argument?

Quotefor whom Jesus died and shed His precious blood for mankind, are either awaiting judgement are sitting in Heaven because God is such a mercifull God. God will just turn His Face the other way and forget the horrors, pain and extermination that these people inflicted and caused on millions upun millions of innocent people.

UR doesn't teach that you can run around like a madman and then instantly enter Heaven. Nasty things are in store for Hitler and similar "humans".
UR just teaches that after an undetermined time the nasty things are over and then they enter heaven.

QuoteI will be surprised if you believe that God destroyed the whole human race in the time of Noah. Oh no it did not happen!!, it is just pure immagination and speculation on the part of the writer of the book of Genesis. Oh no it was not GOD that destryed the Human race.

Because God caused the flood it automaticly means His wrath never ends? Those people drowned and after that they are burned in hell forever. Or could it be that God decided that drowning plus a little while in "hell" is enough for the crimes those people commited?

QuotePerhaps it was Noah himsef that killed all the people, he just got fed up with their sins. Or maybe it never really happened. It is just the product of a careless and senseless immaginative writer that had nothing better to do!!.

You are free to speculate...

QuoteWhat about the account in:
Snipped part about Moses

Same answer as to your flood example.

QuoteDo you know that the word pit here stands for SHEOL/HELL.
Bill Wiese: The man God took to Hell and back. Literally!!!

Proof?
Why do even hardcore ET sites debunk his book because it makes unscriptual claims?

QuotePlease reconsider your position on the WORD of GOD!!!!!
Pastor Victor Belo

We did that's why we are now URs  :laughing7:

ps

for whom Jesus died and shed His precious blood for mankind, are either awaiting judgement are sitting in Heaven because God is such a mercifull God. God will just turn His Face the other way and forget the horrors, pain and extermination that these people inflicted and caused on millions upun millions of innocent people.

according to this teachers doctrine, this is exactly what God will do to most of mankind - to inflict not only temporal but everlasting horror, pain and ceaseless suffering (and not only extermination), most probably countless victims of the holocaust among them, maybe  you should tell him this, I would want to listen his answer.

I again would reitterate WW comments . . .the pastor is not looking for answers as much as he's looking for an argument.  He's already convinced that he's right and we're wrong.  Which for me, that alone is evidence he's still living in the wrong tree in the first place. 

It's the same as a person sitting at the base of a tree, claiming that he's elevated and denouncing the person who truly "is" up the tree and sees things from an elevated position. 

All we can do for this guy is release and bind . .exercise the tools, the gifts that God has offered to those who've had the Peter experience of receiving revelation from the Father illuminating the Truth of the Son.  Speak light into the darkness of this Pastor's understanding.  Bind the power of the mind that veils him from entering into the kingdom truths. 

Jesus said "If I be lifted up . . .I will draw all men unto me . . "  a deeper dig on that will reveal that this isn't a coaxing of men, it's a dragging.  This pastor will be a part of that one way or another.  Christ was already lifted up, that act can not be undone, nor would we want it to be.  But the moment he said "it is finished" the dragging began and hasn't stopped.  Thank you Jesus, it hasn't stopped . . .we're living proof that it hasn't stopped.

There was a time in my life that I had the exact same approach as this pastor does . . .we get so confident that what we think we understand is "the" only way it can be understood, that we overstep our bounds and we take the Holy Spirit's purpose into our own hands and begin attempting to convict others of their wrongness . . .. but if we are truly in the light, this is not something that needs a defense.  We live, we move, and we have our being in Christ.  You can't defend an experience . . . you need to defend knowledge, because knowledge is simply information passed on.  But an experience becomes a personal testimony.  Until this pastor has an experience of his own, his relationship will remain one built on knowledge . . .God help us all.

Quote from: Gary Amirault on May 28, 2009, 04:17:48 PM
The Following is an email I received from a pastor. Perhaps those of you on this board would like to provide him some answers. Here it is:........



Oh yes, I know, you would rather say that this is all symbolic and figurative. God is a loving God and He would never do such a thing.
I see, people like Lenin, Stalin and Hitler who murdered MILLIONS on people created in the image of GOD, for whom Jesus died and shed His precious blood for mankind, are either awaiting judgement are sitting in Heaven because God is such a mercifull God. God will just turn His Face the other way and forget the horrors, pain and extermination that these people inflicted and caused on millions upun millions of innocent people.

Please come down from the pedestal of self righteousness that you have placed yourself on, it's very convenient for you to pass judgments on others that you're so sure you don't have to face yourself, the trouble with your ilk is you walk around with phony masks of empathy and compassion for mankind, but inwardly you relish and delight in the fact that people that don't think like you "will get theirs", the problem which you fail to see is that by your own theology and logic, that the victims of these evil men are subjected to the same fate as the perpetrators themselves, I can assure you I'm not a liberal, I think these men should be severely punished for their crimes, however NOTHING will convince me that eternal torture is a just punishment for their crimes

Have you ever considered the following

Who created these men, who created you, who created me, who created everybody in the state we were created in, did we ask to be created as sinners, you try and pin the blame solely on mankind when Romans 8 v20-21 states that the creature was subjected to vanity, also it states that in Rev 13v8, it says "the lamb slain from the foundation of the world" God knew before the world was created that the world would be in the mess it is today, did anyone of us ask to be born into this cesspool of iniquity in a state of utter hopelessness, your preaching isn't good news, its a nightmare for any human being with a grain of true compassion, sympathy or empathy in their bones for anyone besides just themselves

I'm sure there are many others that will come equipped with far better answers than the one I've given you, i speak from the heart

Quote

Do you know that the word pit here stands for SHEOL/HELL.
Bill Wiese: The man God took to Hell and back. Literally!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhfsxIS5fG8
This man died...and returned..Heaven and Hell are real?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li1iiQzEwXE
She Went To Hell! (Part 1 The Introduction) -Mary K. Baxter at EFCC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHfVDPHHedI
Please reconsider your position on the WORD of GOD!!!!!
Pastor Victor Belo

The only way I will follow those you tube links is to go on the channels to give them the 1 star rating they deserve,  that is a message of utter fear and hopelessness and is responsible for almost year and a half nightmare I have endured, which is how I came across Gary Amirault and other UR teachings, I'm almost convinced that ET isn't a true teaching, it can't be because if it is then this whole life is a farce and a cruel sham

You Sir, are a hypocrite of the first waters, as you would label people like Carlton Pearson, Charles Slagle or others who have in their visions, seen a far bigger and merciful God than you or the above mentioned people do, as heretics or liars

I look at a letter like this, and its not even really worth commenting on.  WW & Shadow touched on some main points.  But His arguments are basically self-defeating.

God is not love?  God will become worse than Hitler in order to punish Hitler?  And Hitler's victims will be punished right along side?

And Mark 9:43-48 is one of my favorites.  Of course they never mention verse 49.  OOH LOOK EVERYONE IS SALTED WITH FIRE!  EVERYONE IS GOING TO HELL!

And then He gives examples of God killing people, as this some how proves that He will eternally torment people.

All of his arguments are all easily refuted by simply reading some of the material on the front tentmaker page.  But people don't believe the truth.  They will only believe it if they want to believe in their heart.  Otherwise they will continue on in their own vain imaginations, content that they are one of the lucky/smart ones who will be saved.

He has given me some nice youtube links to start posting on though  :winkgrin:

You should ask your pastor, that if God is omniscient, did God create Hitler knowing that he would kill millions of people and then go to Hell? Because, if God did, then Paul is a liar when he claims that God wishes all men to be saved. Either God wishes this but creates people knowing they'll go to Hell (and thus, GOES AGAINST HIS OWN WILL), or God made them to be saved but just couldn't quite save them (and thus, God failed). Either way, God is put in a bind, and only UR solves the dilemma.

Besides, UR doesn't teach that all men will easily be saved (so Hitler isn't sitting in Heaven while God simply forgets all his atrocities against the human race), only that, in the end, all men will be saved, even if that means going through age-lasting correction!

Quote from: Gary Amirault on May 28, 2009, 04:17:48 PM
Do you know that the word pit here stands for SHEOL/HELL.
Bill Wiese: The man God took to Hell and back. Literally!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhfsxIS5fG8
This man died...and returned..Heaven and Hell are real?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li1iiQzEwXE
She Went To Hell! (Part 1 The Introduction) -Mary K. Baxter at EFCC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHfVDPHHedI
Please reconsider your position on the WORD of GOD!!!!!
Pastor Victor Belo

The first and third video are standard stories that have been refuted here before.  Whenever I try to watch them, I can never sit through the whole thing as it is basically a waste of time.  The Bill Wiese one is wierd, the way he presents the story is a bit awkward, its hard to tell if he really believes it or not (either bad acting or nerves; I don't know which).  One of these days I will watch the whole thing.

I watched the 2nd video last night.  The guy has a pretty amazing story - he survived a crash in an airplane and lived to tell about it.  His face did get pretty messed up, but it seems he has genuinely turned to the Lord and has a new outlook on life.

He describes what happened during the crash and when he died:  he saw a curtain of darkness sweeping towards him, then he called out to God, then he saw a light.  Sounds like standard "near-death experience" stuff to me. 

The interesting part is that this apparently is passed off as proof of "hell".  Nothing like jumping to conclusions to support your preconceived ideas.

All chain letters start with: "I never believed it was possible to make money this way..."
So telling you where an atheist that is suddenly fully converted gives more credibility than saying "I always believed 95% will goto hell and now I saw it."
To generate most money you need to appeal to the largest group.
Plus fear sells better than peace. So heaven NDEs are not so common.
If you look at the docu/movie "a glimpse of eternity" you see a man that was not religious and didn't really believe in the only one woman concept so to speak.
He died and spoke with God (Jesus?) It was gentle chat. No flames. No horrors.
Main site: http://aglimpseofeternity.org/content.php?folder_id=14 (http://aglimpseofeternity.org/content.php?folder_id=14)
Movie: http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=3682855866783766146&q=ian+mccormack&total=70&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0 (http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=3682855866783766146&q=ian+mccormack&total=70&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0)
I've seen the movie on DVD and it's just a happy movie.
There is even an UR concept in it. Not mentioned at all. But just what I extracted from the story. Over a year ago so don't hold me on the exact details.
Shortly before his death he experience some negativity.
When He met God things where a bit gloomy. Not fire but no utter happiness either.
God was a bit (don't know the English word. lets say speaking like a judge)
He mentioned all the people from the last day(s) that did negative things to him.
Do you forgive him? Him? Him? And Him? When (eventully) he answered yes on all God became much kinder. The atmosphere cleared up too. The UR concept I see is that the man after his death forgave others. It also had a repenting  side in it. That's URish I think.

QuoteIan's Testimony : Ian was night diving off the island of Mauritius when he was stung multiple times by Box Jellyfish, which are among the most venomous creatures in the world. His testimony relates how he clung to life while getting to hospital, was declared clinically dead soon afterwards, and how during this time he had an encounter with God, which radically changed the direction of his life.

Quote from: Gary Amirault on May 28, 2009, 04:17:48 PM
She Went To Hell! (Part 1 The Introduction) -Mary K. Baxter at EFCC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHfVDPHHedI

Ok at lunch today I watched the first 2 parts of the Mary Baxter talk.  This is a demonstration in how far human belief can be stretched.  There are only 2 possibilities here:

1.  Mary Baxter is an incredible deceiver
2.  Mary Baxter is incredibly deceived

I ask myself how can one actually present this stuff with a straight face if you don't actually believe it?  I am more inclined to pick #2 above than #1, but she might be that good an actor.

I think the human mind can deceive itself in many ways.  All it takes is to start having recurring dreams about hell and perhaps you can convice yourself it is real.  I guess it helps if you write a book too.

In university when I was studying Physics intensly, I would often have dreams about the Physics problems I was working on.  In a way it was like hell!  Sometimes I would even solve them in my sleep!  But you don't see me on youtube selling books claiming that "hell" is really that one tough physics question you can't solve.

So is this what happened to Mary?  Perhaps she had been studying and thinking hell so much she started dreaming about it, and convinced herself that her dreams were the truth and not a nightmare?

Either that or she is a really good liar.  Perhaps it is a little of both... She is just capitalizing on a few bad nightmares and embellishing it as it "coincides" with the bible.

It is an interesting demonstration of human abilities though.

Ok on with the critique of the first 2 parts of Mary Baxter's video.

Really there is a lot of fluff in it.  There is an intoduction, some prayers, and then Mary starts her talk.  She quickly goes over some verses before she gets to the really silly non-biblical stuff:
- flesh being regenerated
- skeletons being tormented in fire
- white worms eating flesh causing great pain
etc.

But before all that horror-movie stuff she does mention some verses which I would like to focus on.  Like I said, she mentioned them very quickly.  I had to pause the video several times to write them all down.  I think she kind of glazed over them quickly so no one would really question them that much, and then she could get to the good stuff (ie. the horror-movie stuff she has made up in her head).

Anyway here is the scriptural proof that confirms her "vision" of "hell".  She said she used the KJV so I will quote KJV:

Psalm 11:6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

That does sound kind of scary.  But it doesn't mention "eternal" anywhere.  In fact it says "portion" of their cup.  "Portion" to me indicates it is an alloted amount of wrath that will end eventually.

Psalm 18:5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.

Ok, I guess it used the word "hell".  PROOF that hell exists right? (forgetting sheol/hades/grave for a second).  But who is writing this passage?  King David wrote the Psalms, no?  Are we to conclude that King David was in hell?  Or perhaps he was only worried about sorrows of hell?  Still, no indication of how long this "hell" is.  But apparently it can "compass you about" while you are alive.  Clearly this is metaphor.

Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This one says "children of the kingdom".  Huh?  I know other versions refer to it as Israel.  But children of the kingdom?  Why do the children deserve to be in hell?  Oh wait nevermind, this passage doesn't even mention hell!  Its talking about weeping and gnashing teeth.  It could have been talking about me earlier this year when I had a skunk in my garage.  I was weeping and gnashing my teeth then.  Again the verse doesn't talk anything about the length of time for this weeping and gnashing outside the kingdom.

Mat 13:41-42 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

OK now we are getting somewhere!  Finally someone is getting burned.  And they are wailing and gnashing their teeth again.  But again, no indication of length of this furnace of fire.  In fact no indication of the purpose either.  If we take that all of Jesus words are spirit, perhaps there is a SPIRITUAL explanation for what this fire does.  1 Cor 3:12-15 is helpful.  God is a consuming fire.  etc.

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

Oh wow!!! This is it.  EVERLASTING BURNINGS!  YIPPEE this is the clincher right?  Um no, we all know how that turns out (aion/aionios/age/eonian/eternal etc).  This verse I find really interesting because UR shows this verse to be speaking about the elect!  I'm interested in others thoughts on this, as I'm not completely sold.  It could be read that this is infact the Lake of fire and who dwells in the lake of fire?  The righteous elect:

Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.

Continuing on with the parable about Lazarus and the rich man:

Luke 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house

Mary cites this verse as proof that people are praying in hell, although I guess God doesn't answer their prayers very well.  Oh wait, I thought those in hell didn't want anything to do with God?  I'm confused....

Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Whoops, she cites the same verse AGAIN, I guess to make the list of hell verses longer...

2 Thes 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power

Now we see the duration is everlasting and it is destruction.  But a literal reading of this verse indicates annihilation to me... and its away from His presence.   No need to comment here.

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Ok this is the biggee.  Of course this is proof that we have indestructible bodies in hell that can be destroyed and then regenerated for more fun.  And don't forget about the eternal worms.  I mean what's the most frightening thing we could go through for all eternity?  Eternal worms of course.

But as I mentioned before she totally forgets verse 49 which indicates everyone will go through the fire... oh well.

Forgive my sarcasm above, as you can see its nothing new.  The only new part is her horror-story fiction, and the people in the pulpit love it.  It seems like the worse you can make hell sound, somehow it makes Jesus sacrifice that much better, because then Jesus saved us from something really scary and awful.  This only works though if we suspend our mind and forget that God must have created hell in the first place.

Legoman

Enjoyed your ride there bro . . .

From the picture on a cover of one of her books she is too young to be the Mary Baxter that was so marvelously healed in the 40's or 50's.  I question why the same name.  I think the other one was Betty Baxter.  Mary Baxter has other books and at least one, possibly more, is about her husband.  When rather young, he was supposed to have been handed over to some extreme Kabalistic group by his Jewish parents.  He doesn't know where it was, but thinks it's somewhere in Europe.  They isolated him, though they could check on him from a ceiling level walkway. They made him do meditative exercises on the Hebrew alphabet, made him fast and such.  There were probably many other boys there.  He thinks they are trying to produce a Jewish Messiah.  (Like, do they think they'd treat another one any better than they did the last one?  I'm just saying...)  I only examined the book, not reading it, and it was some years ago.  He's supposed to be a doctor now, I think.

I'm not going to tell the whole story now; but, some years ago, fasting even from water, I was told the words, "The Song of the Damned" by the escorting angel when I saw something like a small small planet of liquid fire full of people and the sound of their many voices was like the rushing of many waters.  That was what I experienced first, that sound which expressed the awsome righteousness and holiness of God.  Yet, I'm inclined to doubt what the Baxters are saying.  Not being certain of what she saw, if anything, is how it is for now.

Sometimes people who have visions from God add embelishments from their own thoughts rather than just telling the dream or vision.  I do remember trying to explain a few Bible facts to someone shopping who showed me Mary's book.  She became almost hysterical, rebuking the devil and quickly left, angry and hating me.

Quote from: reFORMer on May 30, 2009, 12:20:11 AM
I was told the words, "The Song of the Damned" by the escorting angel when I saw something like a small small planet of liquid fire full of people and the sound of their many voices was like the rushing of many waters.  That was what I experienced first, that sound which expressed the awsome righteousness and holiness of God. 

You don't want to tell the whole story, but briefly as possible, what do you think that was you saw?  I think some would say you saw "hell".  What do you think it was?  Punishment, "torture", temporary "lake of fire", a picture of those in life being salted with fire as unbelievers/disobedient/the plight of those currently without Christ, etc.?   Curious...

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
These 2 people had died physicaly, yet they had a state of consciousness     soul/
Well heres the rub yeah Luke 16 proves that Hell/punishment exists however it never gives a time limit for the punishment.

Quote from: jabcat on May 30, 2009, 12:45:05 AM

Quote from: reFORMer on May 30, 2009, 12:20:11 AM
I was told the words, "The Song of the Damned" by the escorting angel when I saw something like a small small planet of liquid fire full of people and the sound of their many voices was like the rushing of many waters.  That was what I experienced first, that sound which expressed the awsome righteousness and holiness of God. 

You don't want to tell the whole story, but briefly as possible, what do you think that was you saw?  I think some would say you saw "hell".  What do you think it was?  Punishment, "torture", temporary "lake of fire", a picture of those in life being salted with fire as unbelievers/disobedient/the plight of those currently without Christ, etc.?   Curious...

(I think I shared it here some time back.)  I was already fasting because I discerned rejection in a difficult situation I was in.  When I was pronounced officially cut off, anathema by the church group I was with, I added fasting from water.  In the middle of the night, whether it was brought to me or I was brought to the scene, I don't know.  I was told the words, "The Song of the Damned" by the escorting angel when I saw something like a small small planet of liquid fire full of people and the sound of their many voices was like the rushing of many waters.  That was what I experienced first, that sound which expressed the awsome righteousness and holiness of God.  I wanted to see it closer.  Immediately I saw a man rolling through the flame and groaning horribly.  I was not made to understand what this was, symbolicly in this life or the beyond, where it was, or how long lasting.  Maybe ten years later, in another town, a fellow with a bad reputation that had recently visited our fellowship several times slid off his motorcycle turning on a wet road.  Immediately ahead of him the large beverage truck with an extra set of wheels continued turning, the driver unaware that he'd slid under the oncoming wheels.  The middle of his body was run over.  He raised up, looking me directly in the eyes and sank back to the pavement.  He died a little later at the hospital.  I recognized him as the same man I had seen in the fire.

Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Love That King James,.....What about those everlasting fires in Sodom Gomorrah and the surrounding towns. Oh and no one said that Gods correction would be pleaseant.
But this guy seems like he is determined ....  So how does he explain the Especially in 1 timothy 4:10.,.....Or John 2:2.....or Hebrews 2: 8-9 ....or Colossians 1: 19-22.... Phillipians 2:10-11 let him explain it because in a philosiphical since the ball is in his court he has to explain away the differences in scripture, if he cannot and refuses to change his position then he has put the Bible in jeopardy because there cannot be two different opposing doctrines. I mean the inspired word of God would not contradict itself.
But I judge from the response that he is interested in presenting opposing scriptures but not trying to explain the other scriptures. Its all smoke and mirrors

Quote from: reFORMer on May 30, 2009, 12:20:11 AM
I think I shared it here some time back.)  I was already fasting because I discerned rejection in a difficult situation I was in.  When I was pronounced officially cut off, anathema by the church group I was with, I added fasting from water.  In the middle of the night, whether it was brought to me or I was brought to the scene, I don't know.  I was told the words, "The Song of the Damned" by the escorting angel when I saw something like a small small planet of liquid fire full of people and the sound of their many voices was like the rushing of many waters.  That was what I experienced first, that sound which expressed the awsome righteousness and holiness of God.  I wanted to see it closer.  Immediately I saw a man rolling through the flame and groaning horribly.  I was not made to understand what this was, symbolicly in this life or the beyond, where it was, or how long lasting.  Maybe ten years later, in another town, a fellow with a bad reputation that had recently visited our fellowship several times slid off his motorcycle turning on a wet road.  Immediately ahead of him the large beverage truck with an extra set of wheels continued turning, the driver unaware that he'd slid under the oncoming wheels.  The middle of his body was run over.  He raised up, looking me directly in the eyes and sank back to the pavement.  He died a little later at the hospital.  I recognized him as the same man I had seen in the fire.

James, with your permission I'd like to start a new thread with this.  Not to put YOU on the spot, or for you to feel the need to elaborate any further/"defend" you post, etc...and I would clarify that...but IMO, this is something worth discussing. 

Maybe others have had similar experiences and/or revelation on this.

 :cloud9: How about a third possibility legoman? They ascend or descend according to which glory they have perceived while in the flesh and therefore created for themselves out of the imaginations of their own hearts. Blessings....

Quote from: preistsplace on May 30, 2009, 03:03:27 AM
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
These 2 people had died physicaly, yet they had a state of consciousness     soul/
Well heres the rub yeah Luke 16 proves that Hell/punishment exists however it never gives a time limit for the punishment.

True, time frame is not mentioned, is it?

J. Preston Eby has a very good article on this, that indicates the passage is not about eternal torment/"hell" at all.  Rather (as Jesus said "I came not except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel"...and "He spoke not to them except in parables") He was talking to the religious priesthood about their impending loss of privilege, the grafting in of the Gentiles, and the use of Gehenna in 70 A.D....  A parable that they didn't understand then, and orthodoxy doesn't understand now.

Quote from: Cardinal on May 30, 2009, 04:50:28 AM
:cloud9: How about a third possibility legoman? They ascend or descend according to which glory they have perceived while in the flesh and therefore created for themselves out of the imaginations of their own hearts. Blessings....

I'm not sure if you're referring to the experience I had maybe 35 or so years ago before I believe in the salvation of all or if you refer to the man that died.  It is an apt response though.  I only slightly wonder how subjective such experiences as I went through are.  I try to only tell exactly what happened without embellishment until later, if I discuss it.  It is rather overwhelming to be visited by an angel and undergo that kind of scenario.  The revelation of the holiness and righteousness of God that was the result of the sound of the many cries was awesome.  At the time I assumed it justified "everlasting torment" though this was not in anyway even intimated by anything of what I went through.

The best explanation I've come up with, something I do doubt because of subjectivity, because it is from the searching of my mind for answers, is that at least some of the last 4 hours of the motorcycle guy's life, from the accident to his death, was when I saw him in the fire.  All the people on earth who were experiencing something at a similar level at that same time were the other people that I saw there.

Eternal torture advocates don't give anywhere enough credence to the depths of horribleness, the very literally "hellish" experiences we go through at certain periods in our lives.  I sometimes think that as God increases, those that are behind of advancing with Him are caught in the lower regions of The Only Holy and experience God as fire.  Otherwise, we are already changed into flames of fire.  As mentioned above, there is a bit of purifying, a bit of a sting of fire for everyone, according the last verse or two in the Mark 9 quote that is often omitted because of it's embarassment for those who put others and not themselves in the fire.

Mark 9:49-50 (CLV)...
49 For everyone will be salted with fire, and every sacrifice will be salted with salt.
50 Ideal is the salt, yet if the salt should be becoming savorless, with what will you be seasoning it? Have salt in yourselves and be at peace with one another.

Quote from: Cardinal on May 30, 2009, 04:50:28 AM
:cloud9: How about a third possibility legoman? They ascend or descend according to which glory they have perceived while in the flesh and therefore created for themselves out of the imaginations of their own hearts. Blessings....

Were you talking about my 2 options for Mary Baxter?:

1. Deceiver
OR
2. Deceived

Not sure what you meant there?  Or were you talking to reFORMer?

 :cloud9: Yes legoman I was referring to that. In the ABSENCE of Spirit given revelation about it, I think from what He's shown me, that their "glory" is based on what they believe, in the sense that He meets them all where they are at, and where they are at is what they themselves have created out of the imaginations of their own hearts/minds.

We are changed (perception also) from glory to glory. So if they are still perceiving strictly under the letter/glory of the law, that explains why they themselves have "put" themselves there, because that is the only glory they were able to perceive. But eventually He comes as the lifter of their head anyway, raising them up to be with Him (perception also). Am I getting the words out right? Blessings....

New thread OK James?  I've got a few things to follow up on that would probably be better elsewhere so as to not hijack Gary's thread...

Sure.  I've got to retire for the night though.

Num 16:28 And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.
Num 16:29 If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the LORD hath not sent me.
Num 16:30 But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD.
Num 16:31 And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them:
Num 16:32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods.
Num 16:33 They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.
Num 16:34 And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also.
Num 16:35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.
Oh no it certainly was not an act of God, then whose act was it??

This guy is a pastor, and trying to prove the existance of hell then what are these verses doing there, although he is not the first to use them for that purpose.
This story is what happened when Some Isrealites rebelled against Moses and Aaron, because the thought themselves equal to Moses. God destroyed them in this manner so that none of the Israelites could say that it was a political action.

Quote from: Cardinal on May 30, 2009, 07:10:32 AM
:cloud9: Yes legoman I was referring to that. In the ABSENCE of Spirit given revelation about it, I think from what He's shown me, that their "glory" is based on what they believe, in the sense that He meets them all where they are at, and where they are at is what they themselves have created out of the imaginations of their own hearts/minds.

We are changed (perception also) from glory to glory. So if they are still perceiving strictly under the letter/glory of the law, that explains why they themselves have "put" themselves there, because that is the only glory they were able to perceive. But eventually He comes as the lifter of their head anyway, raising them up to be with Him (perception also). Am I getting the words out right? Blessings....

Yes I get what you are saying.  I just view that all as point #2:  They are deceived.

I think what you are saying is God gives them over to the deceptions of their own mind.  They believe it.  They believe the strong delusion, for now, because that is what God has let them believe.

And I shouldn't be so harsh, as its all for God's purposes, even Mary Baxter!

Peace...

Quote from: preistsplace on May 30, 2009, 01:55:56 PM
Num 16:30 But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD.
......
Num 16:33 They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit,

This guy is a pastor, and trying to prove the existance of hell then what are these verses doing there, although he is not the first to use them for that purpose.

Read as:
- Hell opened it mouth
- De bottomles s pit of earth/hell openend.

That is the proof of hell.....

Point taken, but that is not the version he quoted.

1 John 1:5
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

Gary,
My grandfather used to tell me, "You can't out-stink a manure pile".
My grampa was a Universalist back when A.E. Knoch used to stop at his farm on his way from Minneapolis to California in the 20's and 30's. They had to hold thier meetings in a one-room school house 'cause no church would let Knoch in the door.
(I found that out from one of my uncles after my dad died three years ago.)
I don't subscribe to everything I've read about UR from the Concordant folks,, but You would have been digging in a manure pile if you'd have broached the subject with me ten years ago.
What I mean by that is that God, over time, used varied means, and different people to show me the truth of UR. Before that time, no amount of "reason" or evidence would have changed my mind. I was a "manure pile" of systematic theology. God knows who He will reveal this truth to. We need only present the Gospel in a clear voice. God will work the rest out, and He's working all toward His goal!

Lee

Quote from: lsmann2 on June 03, 2009, 08:06:30 AM
Gary,
My grandfather used to tell me, "You can't out-stink a manure pile".
My grampa was a Universalist back when A.E. Knoch used to stop at his farm on his way from Minneapolis to California in the 20's and 30's. They had to hold thier meetings in a one-room school house 'cause no church would let Knoch in the door.
(I found that out from one of my uncles after my dad died three years ago.)
I don't subscribe to everything I've read about UR from the Concordant folks,, but You would have been digging in a manure pile if you'd have broached the subject with me ten years ago.
What I mean by that is that God, over time, used varied means, and different poeple to show me the truth of UR. Before that time, no amount of "reason" or evidence would have changed my mind. I was a manure pile of systematic theology. God knows who He will reveal this truth to. We need only present the Gospel in a clear voice. God will work the rest out, and He's working all toward His goal!

Lee

Same here man! I'm only 20 (almost 21), but I've gone through a lot of "Hell" to get to the point where God showed me UR. It took a lot of pain, thinking, and an ever expanding of my mind, to get to the point where I was ready to accept the truly good news. God works in complex ways!

 :cloud9: Wow....only 20 and He's already shown you UR.....what a quick work He is doing in you. PTL! Blessings to you....

Quote from: Cardinal on June 03, 2009, 03:51:27 PM
:cloud9: Wow....only 20 and He's already shown you UR.....what a quick work He is doing in you. PTL! Blessings to you....

I'm very happy! :) I've gone through a lot of "Hell" as I've said. God must have been using it to refine and prepare me for UR!  :bigGrin: Even faster work is He doing in my sister (who is currently 13 years old), as she totally agrees with me, and even encouraged the idea of UR in her own mind, even before I came to believe! (In fact, for a bit of time I was a hindrance to her full acceptance of the truly Good News, because at the time I believed in annihilation. That changed just a few months afterwards though, thankfully!)

And blessings to you as well, Cardinal!  :thumbsup:

Hi Gary here is how I would respond.

Quote from: Gary Amirault on May 28, 2009, 04:17:48 PM
I can see that you are a Master on your own when it comes to interpret and accept/reject God's own WORD.

You are calling God a liar as wel as JESUS when he speaks of hell as a place of eternal separation from God and torment.

First and foremost it seems that your argument comes from the standpoint that you believe the point of view you object to denies the existance of hell.  In basic form that is untrue, the rejection is simply that whatever "hell" can be argued to be will not last forever.   Within Christian universalism there is disagreement on that no different than the variations of it's eternal severity within the religious paradigm you accept.   The rest of my reply, is from the standpoint that each point you make is implying that it supports the eternal nature of what is called "HELL".

I simply reject the intepretation that is asserted as true in that regard and can be rightly questioned as such.  Scripture tells us to reason together, not become divided, will you reason or ignore scripture and act in a divisive nature?

You intepret that Jesus spoke of Hell as a place of eternal torment.  I question the traditionally accepted aspect of Gods word.

(Matthew 25:46)  And, these, shall go away, into, age-abiding, correction, but, the righteous, into, age-abiding, life.

Jesus says nothing of eternal torment here and it is from the Rotherham which is but one translation.  I am willing to discuss translational issues with you, but I will not address them in this reply.

Quote
How do you interpret   
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
These 2 people had died physicaly, yet they had a state of consciousness     soul/spirit.

Again, you are implying that the word hell in this passage must be a place of eternal torment so lets go to Gods word again.

Lk 16:23 And in the unseen, lifting up his eyes, existing in torments, he is seeing Abraham from afar, and Lazarus in his bosom.
or
(Luke 16:23)  And, in hades, lifting up his eyes, being in torments, he seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Some translations use the word "grave" this is because Hell at one time did NOT carry the definition of "place of eternal torment" it was "to cover or conceal"   

Quote
How do you interpret:
Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

You forgot the punch line.

(Mark 9:49)  For, everyone, with fire, shall be salted.

The above passage is a reference to God corrective nature which is eternal.

Quote
Oh yes, I know, you would rather say that this is all symbolic and figurative. God is a loving God and He would never do such a thing.
I see, people like Lenin, Stalin and Hitler who murdered MILLIONS on people created in the image of GOD, for whom Jesus died and shed His precious blood for mankind, are either awaiting judgement are sitting in Heaven because God is such a mercifull God. God will just turn His Face the other way and forget the horrors, pain and extermination that these people inflicted and caused on millions upun millions of innocent people.

In the way God has it planned to reconcile all things yes, and by grace he will do this for you too.   

Quote
I will be surprised if you believe that God destroyed the whole human race in the time of Noah. Oh no it did not happen!!, it is just pure immagination and speculation on the part of the writer of the book of Genesis. Oh no it was not GOD that destryed the Human race. Perhaps it was Noah himsef that killed all the people, he just got fed up with their sins. Or maybe it never really happened. It is just the product of a careless and senseless immaginative writer that had nothing better to do!!.
What about the account in:

There are lots of ways to look at this and discuss, but the most important one is that God is not limited by mans earthly death under any circumstances. 

Quote
Num 16:28 And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.
Num 16:29 If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the LORD hath not sent me.
Num 16:30 But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD.
Num 16:31 And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them:
Num 16:32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods.
Num 16:33 They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.
Num 16:34 And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also.
Num 16:35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.
Oh no it certainly was not an act of God, then whose act was it??

Few will argue that God judges man in some way, I will not hash out the differences because that is not the issue, the issue is that Gods judgments are corrective in nature, therefore whatever man must go through to be corrected will not last forever so the idea of an eternal place of punishment is contradictory to Gods nature.

Quote
Do you know that the word pit here stands for SHEOL/HELL.
Bill Wiese: The man God took to Hell and back. Literally!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhfsxIS5fG8

Even though a person can be shown to be VERY unwise just to take someones word for something as so many people have done with Bill here, I have realized that the whole ordeal is possibly not seen in the correct way.  Giving the benefit of the doubt is something we all as believers should consider.  ***IF*** this indeed proves anything then this proves that God in his glorious love has actually shown us that Hell is not a place of hopelessness after all, because a man was sent there and did not stay for eternity.   That is entirely scriptural too. 

Ps 86:13 For great [is] thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

No back pedalling on the word hell please, just understand that the intepretational value you rest upon is proven to be questionable.   One of the periods of torment we can face is seeing that all we have believed most of our lives is a lie.

I will not argue with anyone that we are to share the glorious gospel with people in hope that they come to the truth and avoid any amount of time where hopelessness enters their life.

Quote
This man died...and returned..Heaven and Hell are real?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li1iiQzEwXE

The state of what is translated to the words heaven and hell are a reality according to the bible,  the interpretation that hell is a place of eternal torment is a different argument.

Quote
She Went To Hell! (Part 1 The Introduction) -Mary K. Baxter at EFCC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHfVDPHHedI
Please reconsider your position on the WORD of GOD!!!!!
Pastor Victor Belo

As with Bill, they have made claims that feed your acceptance of a certain intepretation, they have not proven anything. It cannot be proven nor disproven, and that fact alone does not mean that anyone should believe on the basis of "what if they are right". There is not one scripture that will approve of believing anything for that reason.  The scripture is full of promises that mankind will be brought to the truth and reconciled, we do not have to rely on "what if".

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 07, 2009, 06:34:24 AM


As with Bill, they have made claims that feed your acceptance of a certain intepretation, they have not proven anything. It cannot be proven nor disproven, and that fact alone does not mean that anyone should believe on the basis of "what if they are right". There is not one scripture that will approve of believing anything for that reason.  The scripture is full of promises that mankind will be brought to the truth and reconciled, we do not have to rely on "what if".

An excellent point.   Are we motivated by fear or love?  I think our natural man is motivated by fear and the new man after Christ follows after love. 

Anne

 

QuoteYou are calling God a liar as wel as JESUS when he speaks of hell as a place of eternal separation from God and torment

Pastor Victor Belo

I would lean more in favour of it being you who is calling God and Jesus Christ liars.

1.............................. "Turn to Me and be saved, ALL the ends of
                                 the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by   
                                 Myself,  the word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and
                                 will not turn back, that to Me every knee will bow, every
                                 tongue will swear allegiance. They will say of
                                 Me, 'Only in the Lord are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to
                                 Him, and all who were angry at Him will be put to shame." [color]
                                (Isa.45:23-24).

2........................ "For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do
                          not return there without watering the earth and making it bear and sprout,
                          furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater; so will My word be
                          which goes forth from My mouth; it will not return to Me empty, without
                          accomplishing what I desire, and without succeeding in the matter for which
                          I sent it."   (Isa.55:10-11).         

3...................... This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who
                         desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the
                         truth.  (1Tim.2:4).


That is the Word of God and it is very clear. And athough man lies the Scriptures don't. So from my understanding of it, it reads ALL men will come to knowledge of God, not just you pastor. In which case I'd pin the label on you and say that you are calling God and our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ Liars.

In one instance God has failed to accomplish His will, and His Word that went out of His mouth has returned to him empty in which case you're saying He's a liar. And in the other Our Lord and Saviour of ALL men has failed by saving only a few, including you of course we must not forget that. So what it amounts to in you're case is; God is a liar and our Lord Jesus Christ is a failure. Am I right pastor?

Love

Roy    (UK)

I don't have much to add here but perhaps my  :2c: can contribute just a tad.

As one that slogged his way out of Calvinism mostly because it was just so distasteful and later attained the good biblical evidence to support the move ... and as one who is not UR but definitely being uplifted and edified by the concept ... the original poster's demeanor is decidedly pharisee like.

The 'attitude' just jumps off the page at you.  Here is a man upbraiding others who obviously love Jesus with all their heart as if they are heretics and practicing apostasy.  I wouldn't speak to a sun worshipper with such lack of respect.

What does this say to us regarding the calvinistic mindset?  I know of what I speak because I was deeply drenched in such despair once myself.  It just makes you mean.  It is truly amazing how the established churchians hate UR.  This says a LOT.

Quote from: Tim B on May 28, 2009, 11:06:53 PM
You should ask your pastor, that if God is omniscient, did God create Hitler knowing that he would kill millions of people and then go to Hell? Because, if God did, then Paul is a liar when he claims that God wishes all men to be saved. Either God wishes this but creates people knowing they'll go to Hell (and thus, GOES AGAINST HIS OWN WILL), or God made them to be saved but just couldn't quite save them (and thus, God failed). Either way, God is put in a bind, and only UR solves the dilemma.

Besides, UR doesn't teach that all men will easily be saved (so Hitler isn't sitting in Heaven while God simply forgets all his atrocities against the human race), only that, in the end, all men will be saved, even if that means going through age-lasting correction!

Good points, Tim.

One point perhaps worth considering on the "UR doesn't teach all will be easily saved..." issue: The apostle Paul, in his own way, was a Hitler of his day (Paul himself even claims to be the chief of sinners) and he was 'saved' in a matter of seconds (at least the initial precipitating event). I don't know that God would necessarily have to work much harder on Hitler. I don't think that God views saving any individual as a matter of difficulty, merely timing. "Each in his own order".

Don't get me wrong, I don't think God will simply forget all the atrocities either without "giving to each according to what has been done in the body", but....