lake of fire with sulfur is the image of an ancient gold refining process

[jabcat]

I would think that concept would have to be weighed against this;  "...prepared for the devil and his angels"

[jugghead]

I would think that concept would have to be weighed against this;  "...prepared for the devil and his angels"

IMO it is ...... who is the devil but a traducer, a false accuser and his messengers (angels)..... are there not many false accusers and messengers in this world saying that not all of mankind will be saved, that they will be sent to their idea of what hell is?
Are those not false accusations?

[jabcat]

I personally am not sure I could "stretch" it to that exact point.  Really my thought though is, to say the Lake of Fire is the infilling of the Holy Spirit and/or people filled with the Holy Spirit, would be to say the infilling of the Holy Spirit was created..originally intended..for the devil (and then also, his angels).  I don't know that people, on the earth today, would be the angels in question in the passage.  Maybe, to me it just bears careful consideration, weighing the whole of it.  Maybe some can reconcile it to that, and maybe there's some correctness to it.   I'm just suggesting there could be some serious hesitation - at least a need to accurately be able to reconcile all those things before I could say that's what the LOF is.   :2c:

[jabcat]

I personally don't necessarily consider someone that teaches ET to be an angel of satan.  Maybe some are, who aren't really saved, but to trust Christ as Savior makes someone a child of God - despite other doctrinal issues.  So on first take, to me, it just seems problematic.  Or at least, to require some serious explanation/clarification/exogesis (that's a fancy word i don't use very often lol).  I don't know if 'angel' in the passage strictly means messenger, or more so "one of satan's children/gang, in his particular hierarchy" (rather than a child of God who may have some faulty doctrine).   :dontknow:    another  :2c:

[rosered]

  I believe Jesus  explains  the lake of fire  in Matthew  13  very well .

and again in

  Matt 25  41 , 'Depart from Me, those being cursed, into the eternal fire, having been prepared for the devil and his angels.


For me the eternal fire is GODS WORD  & HOLY SPIRIT   that is a witness   though out all  ages and stages , God is a consuming fire .
in a literal    sense  of the  world as a field prepared for planting [ basically to me it is  our hearts /minds  [Seed is   the Word of God   Luke  8 ;11 /Truth   GOOD seed  or the seed of Satan/THORNS /tares  = evil  ]  and the spiritual meaning  of it also   as ages and stages of Spiritual growth in Truth and grace .1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed/  death is the end  result, but of imperishable/everlasting life , through the living and enduring word of God.


  God set eternity in every mans heart  Ecclesiastes 3:11New American Standard Bible (NASB)

God Set Eternity in the Heart of Man
11 He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.

I do believe   we experience ''all things ''   in ages and stages  of the world as a whole and in our piece  and short mortal  existence  allotted   with or without calling upon the name of the Lord ....

If the devils   bristle  up in fear in Gods presence   what is this saying in James  2  than ?  ,  To me  as I perceive   Gods Word is saying   in this  time of trying to understand it    ,  It is by faith we   also believe  knowing that we are trees of knowledge of good and evil in every last one of us  and who is in control  over the body[land / field= world  ,  and the battle over control of it
James 2
If the ...18But someone will say, "You have faith and I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19You believe that God is one. Good for you! Even the demons believe that, and shudder! 20O foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is worthless?...

  Jesus had a strong   message in when He told  anyone reading the WORD OF GOD    that we are to make the tree good and its fruit good or make the tree  evil and its fruits  [ doings ]    a tree is known by its fruits    , these works of  faith and belief  or rebellion against Gods Word , and the WORD judges     like a two edged SWORD      dividing  within us   and scattering    or gathering   which ever fruits is produced /works   of evil in every form    or the steadfast working of God within you . 
being more  as God gives the increase  or taken away    to be burned in the fire  of   the Lambs presence

destroying the image of the beast ,   that  false  idol and image  created by the vain imaginations of  mankinds worship Romans 1  , is to me one of the best descriptions in the Bible  that explains  how the false image  is manifested . 

Rev14 9And a third angel followed them, calling in loud a voice, "If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or hand,

10he too will drink the wine of God's anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

11And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. Day and night there will be no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."...

   To me  as I understand it and  not able to understand  ''everything  in order ''  is being as honest as I know how to be about it   ,      Know Jesus   Being   the two edged Sword / Word in His mouth    come to destroy the works of Satan and set the captives of Babylon free   from the power  given   by God   to both the beast    for a time and the the Lord  as  His judgments are in the earth  as well as   HIS WORD that judges  everything   and HOLDS everything    , From the beginning to the end  from the head  to the feet  ,  casting out and destroying all things that offend .AS THE HOLY ONE .
   

   Col 1 ...16For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and firstborn from among the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence....

  Here are more  strong and faithful scriptures  to prove GOD IS IN CONTROL   

John 1:3
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:10
He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him.

Romans 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen.

Romans 11:36
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.

Ephesians 1:10
as a plan for the fullness of time, to bring all things in heaven and on earth together in Christ.

Ephesians 1:20
which He exerted in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly realms,

Ephesians 1:21
far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come.

  the age of a child  ,  as well as the age of  a  heir 4 Now I say, as long as the heir is a child,

he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything,


2 but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father.  Only the Father in heaven knows the time  for change of garments , from  rags  to  true riches  being  clothed in Christ  , the promised land  or  taken away from any one of us  what we thought we had     [Matthew 24:36 and 37 
[from captivity to Christ coming  and   gathering into Himself and scattering abroad  and destroying  with the testing of fire   within us all .  ]

3 So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, [this age ]
5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.    [    Rev 12 ]     the Christ child in you the hope of  glory    having the WORD OF GOD /TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST  /SPIRIT OF PROPHECY AND  INCORRUPTIBLE SEED /Word of Truth   THAT CAN NEVER BE DESTROYED  ,changed nor burned up    , the age coming  without an end .

Colossians 1:20
and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross.

To me , evil cannot exist  in the end of all things ,   because   in Gods   presence   no such thing can  endure or  remain    any longer  , but be consumed   , because God is a consuming fire . and is a jealous God      in the sense   , there will be no other gods before  Him    ,    we can only glory in the Lords  presence  by the Spirit of truth and the Word of Truth   that cannot be corrupted  ever  , Gods mercy endures forever  and His wrath for a moment [to destroy  evil  once and for all  and for good , death  is swallowed up   in Victory and is no more  fear or lack  , but Love has  won the battle  ] .


  when the mortal  puts on immortality   1 Corn 15 ...53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable,

and the mortal with immortality.


54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: "Death has been swallowed up in victory." 55"Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?"...

the sting of death is found in Rev 9    and can only hurt  and harm , 2nd death  ,  the evil presence  of  unjust  judges ]  but there  is good also within the   Law of good and evil     , to me   the outer courts  [Paul called this  the body of death /Moses seat ]   Jude explains it  briefly
as the 1st death is in Adam  , a spirit of ruling over the soul / life   within us all  must die  at the cross  ,the second is the seat of Moses in whom we trust under the old law and covenant    witness  , did not love their lives unto death  ,[throwing down the crowns and authority   Rev 4 ]   till  Christ must come  to bring in the new age and covenant      witness and fulfills all things within us .. 

When seeing the Cross of Christ and What  Jesus says in His red letters and also what Paul  preaches also   to us , I can see that   the two thieves on the cross   to the left of  CHRIST  is  the old Adam  and   cannot be the   husband  [seed bearer ]  but  must die  first , for  the law  of Moses to be fulfilled though   Christ Jesus  HE  becomes the new husband[SON / SUN ruler of the DAY  ,  to  bear the Holy seed   to  His body /woman    true church under His authority     [ headship ] [Rev 12 ]   after the moon is under her feet ,,,   and Moses [the moon ruler of the night  Gen 1 ;16 ] being the   right , today you will be with me in Paradise    , as  judging also   under the authority  given by GOD   15and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so.

16God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. 17God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth,...


the stars are the angels     , or messengers    of covenants
I can also see that James told us the truth as a witness in James 1  , when He said    GOD is the giver of   Lights and those gifts     of His  goodness are found in both covenants and rulers   .

16Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers.

17Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, with whom there is no change or shifting shadow.

18He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation....


   I can also see  that the crown of thorns Christ wore upon His head  made by the old law   and covenant  witness , ministration of death and violence   , were the works    , that are set to be burned  up being on the head of Christ  true  authority  and  cannot endure   forever , suffering and tasting death for every man ,   Paul understood this after Christ had come to Him blinding Him by the true Light  of His coming  , under the old law  Paul  confessed he was a child and serving the Lord  thinking he was doing God a great service       by killing  and being a murderer  , Moses being that bloody man , because of the circumcision and given authority to do so    that good might come from the  revealing of the sinful nature  in us all ,    but Jesus Christ brings in the new  covenant of Gods grace by setting us free from that old law and nature to judge   our brothers and sisters by    that Law  of good and evil ,  , as Paul said , he would know nothing  from now on , but Jesus Christ and Him crucified    !!! and  the race set before him  from that point onward    ...

Here we can see by the study of thorns  , kicking against  the pricks and goads      that Paul was delivered from    by the Lord Jesus Christ coming to him and setting  him free by the truth      ....When you live by the Sword  you also die by  the same two edged Sword / WORD OF GOD     ...  Sharp as to cut between the soul/ life and the Sprint  [ Hebrews 4 ]   

     Hebrews 2 8and placed everything under his feet."

When God subjected all things to him, He left nothing outside of his control.

Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him.


9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because He suffered death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.


10In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting for God, for whom and through whom all things exist, to make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering..... not loving our lives unto death  , being in the first resurrection   [  the Cross  of the Lord Jesus Christ  baptized  in His death  as forgiveness is the grace of God shown to  all  ] THE HOLY OF holies      go to     our inner  room the  HOLY PLACE   is in His presence  ,  you are the temple of the Living God     ....

1 Cor 3 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss.

He himself will be saved, but only as one being snatched from the fire.


16Do you not know that you yourselves are God's temple, and that God's Spirit dwells in you?

17If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is holy, and you are that temple....

  thorns set to be burned up in bundles as well as all works   not of God  in His presence ...

http://www.blbclassic.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=thorns&t=KJV

This is hard to follow , and I dont claim to be a know it all and have  it all figured out , on the contrary  , I just know this  pondering of the Lords working in us all    comforts me  greatly    and as   we are  learning of Him   how truly blessed we are  and How He keeps this hunger and thirsting   after Him    a very satisfying  and humble  experience   to just keep trusting Him all the more .  I am certain if there is any error  it will be burned up    /consumed in His presence , HE IS FAITHFUL  AS PROMISED .   enduring the fire of Gods consuming  love  for us  and not desiring to be a drunkard , but sober and waiting on the Lord  to lead us into all truth for His names sake .  [ Isaiah 28 ]

   

[jugghead]

I take every thought captive in obedience to Christ ..... and since God's understanding of things is infinite, I cannot deny any possibility, because with God all things are possible

All things describe all things IN us, from what we were to what we are becoming, (the beginning and the end IN us, which is Christ) it is just part of how I understand "all in all"

just my thoughts

[darryl]

I would think that concept would have to be weighed against this;  "...prepared for the devil and his angels"

IMO it is ...... who is the devil but a traducer, a false accuser and his messengers (angels)..... are there not many false accusers and messengers in this world saying that not all of mankind will be saved, that they will be sent to their idea of what hell is?
Are those not false accusations?

yes, agreed.

[marie glen]

Today when I was reading Rev 20:14 and 15, I was struck with, not only how verse 14 says death is thrown into the LOF, which I take to mean is at that time no more.. also "hades" (unseen) in that verse is also thrown into the LOF.. Lately I've realized the biggest thing (to me) about death, when we lose loved ones they are no longer seen.. no longer around..ie. are unseen.. and so the verse struck me as "unseen" will no longer be.. hence no one unseen.. (same as no one dead, I know.. :laughing7: but it was like a double whammy.. And seemed important to me that verse 14 precedes verse 15.. anyone whose name is not (by then?) written in the book of life / i.e. not believing, will go to the LOF.. So once again I am thinking the LOF made for the devil and his angels will actually have no humans in it at all..

I've also been finding myself reading "agelong or ageduring judgment" along the lines of age of judgment.. [and if the ancient fall holy days are the pattern of His long 2nd advent, 10 days between Trumpets and DOA signifying the 1000 yr millennium, then the 5 days between DOA and Tabernacles, signifying a 500 year 'day' - which of course is only theory, but I really don't see how it would take more than 500 years for God to pierce every heart/psyche.. the ones thrown to the LOF in chapter 19 being, imo, institutions/systems/belief of man active at the time of Jesus' return, and not persons..

Otherwise, too.. I think LOF is the fires of armageddon/split atom, etc, and the one which consumes after the 1000 years those who surround the holy city, after satan is loosed for a short time.. (which of course is before the resurrection of all those who died not yet believing and thus "still in their sins" (DOA/day of atonement for the D.O.A./(still) 'dead' on arrival / not yet born again)

And all this, suffering and living through consequences.. indeed does purify.. and convince of truth versus error.. Was reading about the greek word telos.. "purpose, consummation, intent, end goal, closure.."
          :Peace2:

[jabcat]

I'm trying to separate out what I understand being said lately in this thread about what the LOF is.  Please comment, clarify, explain, etc. 


The Lake of Fire  is

a) The Holy Spirit
b) the baptism of the Holy Spirit
c) the people who are baptized in the Holy Spirit
d) nuclear warfare/capability/calamity are the Lake of Fire. 

All of the above were prepared (created?) for satan and his angels.   

Anyone who doesn't believe in UR,  whether they are in Christ/have become a child of God or not (Rm. 10:9,13, Jn 1:12)   are satan's angels and will go there. 

[jabcat]

Some context for Lake of Fire:  ^^^^^^^^^

Matthew 25:40,41,46  Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;..And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

Revelation 19:20: "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet[6] that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

Revelation 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Revelation 20:14-15 "Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

Revelation 21:8 "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."


(J.Preston Eby believes the Lake of Fire is God's glory, His presence;  "HIS GLORY is a LAKE OF FIRE AND BRIMSTONE - divine, cleansing, purging, purifying, consuming fire! In ages yet unborn God shall expose ALL MEN to the sweet abiding presence of the Lamb. They will come under such severe processings, under such profound conviction that they will be tormented and have no rest day or night until they finally yield. And when they do, many fountains of tears will flow with weeping, praying, and calling upon the Lord.I believe it!  God hasten it!")  http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html


**Marie...David and Zoe Sulem, who are members here but not active in awhile (David told me due to being very active in their own projects) believe the LOF is both literal/physical and spiritual.  They talk about unbelievers being in it when the earth is cleansed by fire/melts with a "fervent heat", etc., prior to new heavens and new earth.  When I read that I thought of your nuclear holocaust scenario..  :dontknow:   http://godsplanforall.com/free-online-book/part-i/chapter-12-the-lake-of-fire-judgement-age-part-1/

[sheila]

 :2c: I'm more in line with the literal/spiritual concept. just as when God called Lot out of sodom/gomorrah...I see allmen's spirits

  redeemed and part of God's lot...the two men,two women,one taken one left behind. I believe He isgoing to remove all our spirits

  [His lot/portion] suddenly....and only our dead flesh remain for burningby a literal fire/as well as the 'flesh' of evil spirits that

   will be consumed.

   man does not live by bread alone..but by every 'word' that comes forth from the mouth of God. elements [thoughts of God/our bread]

  being intensely hot[manna when sun rose would melt from heat of the sun]   I believe that 'UPWARD CALL" Paul looked for is

'suddenly He shallcome unto His temple"[ourbody of flesh] and we shall all be changed in the twinkling of an eye[transformed  into

  spiritual bodies/or delivered from this body of death.

   ty for sharing that jabcat...I had no idea other's  had similiar perspectives.

[sheila]

the two wittnesses...laying as dead in sodom/egypt to me can represent the testimony of Jesus Christ and the Holy spirit..being

  overcome of carnal men's minds/thinking/that fallshort of God's higher thoughts and how He fulfills these things.[beast killed]

  and the upward call..to 'come up here" can be people's understanding coming up to God's higher thoughts,or a literal rising

  of our spirits to always dwell with the Lord.I believe He is doing both at present and a grand finale for all is in our future.

  erronous thinking of what He means[or our carnal/flesh mis-interpretations of His words and what they mean] result in people

  mocking'where is His promised coming.." or 'God is dead" type reasonings..add in false prophets/lying spirits that mislead man

and there yougo.

   I know that He will certainly settle all this mess and deliver allmen from  confusion.....and deliver all men and perfect our

  understanding,too.   we are all in good hands...we can put full faith in Him.

[jabcat]

:2c: I'm more in line with the literal/spiritual concept. just as when God called Lot out of sodom/gomorrah...

   ty for sharing that jabcat...I had no idea other's  had similiar perspectives.

:thumbsup:

[rosered]

 

  I have this  understanding that GOD IS IN COMPLETE CONTROL ...... JESUS  WORDS always confirms it .

  Just as Jesus told Pilate , You would have no power at all if not given from above , when Pilate said I have authority to release you   or crucify you...

God  gives the beast  authority   to  eat the flesh of Babylon and put it in their hearts to burn her with  fire ..
 

  W hen Jesus said ,  when He blew on the disiples    giving them power / authority to remit or retain sins    on whom ever they   came into  contact with ...

Alos Jesus told  us in the gospels     that all manner of blsphey  shall be forgiven   when  speaking against the Father or Son , But   NOT the HOLY SPIRIT

   CONSIDERING THESE SCRIPTURES  TO   JESUS  TESTIMONY.........The Beast from the Sea
...6And the beast opened its mouth to blaspheme against God and slander His name and His tabernacle—those who dwell in heaven.

7Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.

8And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

  Now I have read   that satan gives authority to the beast       in Rev , but  God  gave  Satan permission to   touch Job and Peter and sift them as wheat ..
      I have been thinking about   this stuff for awhile now

  and it is in the HOLY SPIRIT   THAT MAKES  THE WORD ALIVE    in us ,   bringing us also back from the dead when we die under the law  of sin nature   , taking up our cross and following Jesus ....   Than does the Life in Christ  bring in the new and living way     ... 
I can  see many ways that God  has made possible   , what has always been impossible  with mankind ,  these works are the miracles that the Lord speaks of  , raising the dead to Life in Christ   , in the here and now as well as the last day of ones earthly existence ,,,

I am not  conformed to just one way of thinking   ,  when it  comes to Gods work in   the earth ...
I BELIEVE the HOLY SPIRIT /GHOST     IS THE  Source of  all  POWER  and authority  of anything ever created  into existence or being  ......
It is a huge leap of faith , but it is also a simple and trusting   kind of faith  in the power of Gods will being done  ... 

[rosered]

  I would love to  clarify   somethings  hopefully    :sigh: ,
  I believe from the scriptures that  ,  death reigned till  Moses   , I see this as a age [ a certain  space of time ] 

When the law of Moses come it was to   expose sin  and put it to death  ,but what this law could not do by death of lambs goats and bulls  and a constant reminder of sin ,  this LAW is without mercy  [  Jesus/Lamb of God  come to fulfill this   requirement by the law in our place ]  tasting death for every man .  [ age  waiting on the promises of Gods mercy  & grace  come]

  I believe when Jesus spoke of  blaspheming the Holy Spirit in this age or the age to come / under grace , it was still meant for those under the law of Moses  in whom may put their trust in .

and as they judge so would they also be judged , Jesus confirmed this in the 4 gospels   and it is of the jots and tittles of the law being  fulfilled   in the tree of knowledge of good and evil[all mankind locked up under the law   and ministration of death and the  fear of death ] and to make the tree good  and its fruit , 

this can only be done by believing in  the name of  THE LORD JESUS CHRIST in whom  God/Father  sent  in the fullness of time , the age to come to me is when GOD raised   up the LORD JESUS CHRIST giving Him full authority  over everything      totally    till the end ...    as the scriptures   come alive  as   the Holy spirit speaks  them to us as those seals are opened  and all things begin to happen as Jesus  foretold    them   in the Book of Revelation of Jesus Christ being called the WORD OF GOD in Heaven and the SPIRIT IS WHAT gives it Life ,

Any    being spiritual in this  new nature hears what the Spirit is saying  and will live and never die   ....  Jesus spoke of this coming to pass  after His resurrection [ being the RESURRECTION &LIFE  ]


 

To me , it could be as simple as  when you speak evil against LIFE [HOLY SPIRIT ] and try to destroy it  you are  than destroyed [being death  itself  and its rider ] rev  6   these are some  messengers of death for sure speaking against Gods SPIRIT  OF LIFE  big time in the world   unfortunately    :sigh:

  7And when the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!" 8Then I looked and saw a pale horse. Its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed close behind. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill by sword, by famine, by plague, and by the beasts of the earth.

  and fulfilling Isaiah 33   all of it    , here is the first few lines ...


1Woe to you, O destroyer,
            While you were not destroyed;
            And he who is treacherous, while others did not deal treacherously with him.
            As soon as you finish destroying, you will be destroyed;
            As soon as you cease to deal treacherously, others will deal treacherously with you.

I can see this as Satan/adversary   against the SPIRIT OF LIFE  and those fallen stars  [angels  of darkened hearts   in death  and Hades   ] that which is out of sight, a Greek word used to denote the state or place of the dead. All the dead alike go into this place. To be buried, to go down to the grave, to descend into hades, are equivalent expressions. In the LXX. this word is the usual rendering of the Hebrew sheol,    the grave

  Ephesians 4 New Life in Christ
17So I tell you this, and testify to it in the Lord: You must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking.

18They are darkened in their understanding and alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts.

19Having lost all sense of shame, they have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity, with a craving for more....    :sigh:

gentiles   goyim / strongs  וֹי gôwy, go'-ee; rarely (shortened) גֹּי gôy; apparently from the same root as H1465 (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; hence, a Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts:—Gentile, heathen, nation, people.  non Jew  a clan  ,    [ mark of the beast  nature  ? I was like a beast before you  Lord .. ]  ,,,,,   trample the outer court , revelations 11 The Two Witnesses
1Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the number of worshipers there. 2But exclude the courtyard outside the temple.

  satan was cast down unto the earth to devour the man child as soon as it was born [ Rev 12 ]  ..satan is like a lion seeking whom He may devour ...     all these scriptures   are  God breathed    and inspire & enlighten  us  all.

Do not measure it, because it has been given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. 3And I will empower my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for a thousand two hundred sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."...


I see the HOLY SPIRIT [GOD ] as  doing  both allowing the   trampling    and  empowering the two witnesses   , as lawlessness abounds , grace will abound the more   

MAKING  KNOWN HIS TRUTH/Word  by the SPIRIT speaking , to the new man  in Christ  as healed by  Jesus  given  new  eyes to see and ears to hear and heart  understand what the  Holy Spirit is   witnessing or  gives or serve as evidence of; testify to.PROOF  OF ANOINTING   WITH OIL /Holy Spirit    this oil and   fire make light  known    ..



Col 1 25I became its servant by the commission God gave me to fully proclaim to you the word of God,


26the mystery that was hidden for ages and generations but is now revealed to His saints,


27to whom God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory....

  :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

Amen 'guys'! (brothers and sisters).. How can we believe other than He is in complete control, what with His being Almighty :thumbsup:

I believe the  LOF is spiritual and somewhat literal.. "a fire streams forth from in front of His throne" consuming away all impurity.. in lesser and greater degrees(?)

If He chooses who comes to the faith during this lifetime, I can't help wondering why then He would be any more harsh with those who rise after the millennium and not yet born again, than He has been with any of us..

And the time gap between His return and 'day' of judgment makes me think those who are gathered to be burned at His return may well be the tares gathering for Armageddon (to destroy Israel?) But it ends up as the treading of the grapes of wrath..

However it all unfolds, He is surely in perfect control and all things are working together for good and only good..

Thanks Jabcat., it's good to know I'm not completely alone in my ruminatings concerning a split atom kind of lake/sea/flood (result of man's own doings?) :ty:

[Ross]

If He chooses who comes to the faith during this lifetime, I can't help wondering why then He would be any more harsh with those who rise after the millennium and not yet born again, than He has been with any of us..

:iagree: The example of provision of God's directions' for decisions and provision were in the wilderness;
Major stuff was decided by lot; so that no man could lay claim to the glory/success of the mission.
Paul makes that statement ;
                                      " But when God, Who had set me apart from my mother's womb, and called me by His grace.."[Gal 1;15]

Add in Romans 9;11,12 " For even before they were born or had done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose might stand
                                  according to election, not because of works, but because of His call.."

One of the biggest disputes among religions is about the predestination theories.
I.M.O until being born of the spirit we do not fully know the truth- ergo each at their appointed time so that none can glory in their own work/efforts instead of recognising the position as literally new in Christ.
That awareness will be brought to life in the resurrection so that all will fully understand and come and give glory to our wondrous creator.

[rosered]

 I too believe it is  Gods glory ..
I think one of the main   things that helped me the most was Jesus   saying what he would do  at the cross ,,,,,all that trembling and falling  and  dividing  in the earth come !!    I do believe it was outwardly , but more so spiritually speaking it was proof  of what was  happening   within us all ... not one stone  upon another  would  or could  any of us build upon , but Him first   and foremost  as far as trusting to build a solid foundation   to stand on . He is the TRUTH made known .

49I have come to ignite a fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!

50But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished!...

Revelation 20:14-15 "Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

Revelation 21:8 "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

  I can see duel natures  at odds    splitting  within  every  last one  born of woman under the law ! in Adam all die ,  we have the new husbandman  redeemer     dead in Adam /mankind ,    but this second  death is under the law of Moses , being  blessed in the sight of the Lord are the death of his saints  holy ones .. those  did not love their lives unto death   all the law and prophets proved it  as a Truth  .
  now that the  Word come  ,   blessed is He who is in the first Resurrection  the second death has no power or hold on those born again  whom is of the incorruptible seed ...   Christ in you the hope of glory ...   

   to the woman   seed   Gen 3' 15...14The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life; 15And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

16To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."...  Christ is the new  head authority   over the woman / body

  Christ / Head and Woman = body of the TRUTH  is the  seed  being the incorruptible  WORD OF GOD eternal LIFE ,
  to destroy the seed of   that old serpent Satan as corruptible,  being a liar  and   thief , murderer   and sure  death

JESUS PROVED death could not hold HIM, His WORD OF TRUTH  by the power of the  FATHER  = HOLY SPIRIT OF TRUTH  where everything is gathering into   HIMSELF    , being the firstborn from the dead and being the mediator of the new Covenant  ,    the new and living way ....


I do see the world is on fire   metaphorically speaking   as a    powerful   fire and witness  , resembling   a baptism    of sorts   as to melting the elements     , elemental   and formal things/appearances    that the law represented   though the law of Moses   fooling mankind  , but not the Holy Spirit and those  protected by  the  gathering of the Lord  into His BODY /sheepfold

. as the Spirit of discernment  is given   not to judge by appearances     ..which being carnally minded   seems to  believe in/trust  but fails the test  .

[Moses in whom you trust ]   Jesus / Word /Son of God   says  you break one  law  you BROKE THEM ALL  , making it impossible with man kind/Adam    ,  proving to me that even Moses  was not  allowed into the  promised land  [ Body of Christ  Till the LORD COME   AND  OPENED HEAVEN , opened the seals to fulfill all things    and did not proceed those whom had  fallen asleep   ,,,


  These are just  my thoughts  about  it .   call it vain imaginations if you want to     , but   trusting in  Him and only Him is the best thing that has ever happened to many of us   ever ...  my doubting Him days were many  , God has proven over and over HE IS MORE REAL   that anything I could ever taste of touch or feel in this world  and has proven without Him I can do nothing !    ..I KNOW GOD IS ALWAYS GOOD ...

A fire is burning   in hearts     Luke 24  Jesus Opens the Scriptures


...31Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Jesus—and He disappeared from their sight.


32They asked one another, "Were not our hearts burning within us as He spoke with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?" 33And they got up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem. There they found the eleven and those with them, gathered together...


I believe it is LOVE  radiating from the Holy Spirit    that burns and connects us  to HIM ,  removing the dross , the worthless crud  , those things that were never meant to remain  in the first place , but perish with  the using    .

[jabcat]

concerning a split atom kind of lake/sea/flood (result of man's own doings?) :ty:

Several good posts in this thread today!

That's one of the things marie that has been lodged in my mind though about the different theories as to the LOF.  Including things like "the Holy Spirit was prepared for the devil and his angels?   :Chinscratch: It was PREPARED  FOR  the devil and his angels.  If it's of man's doing, would that fit the definition of prepared for?  Maybe so, as in God directing it, sort of like the scripture in Isaiah about God creating evil (rah), and "if it's done in the streets I have done it" etc...lol, lots of "little" things to think about.   :dsunny:

[darryl]

Romans 5: 18   So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19   For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Whatever the Lake of Fire precisely/exactly is, and there's some great views/ insights here...it results in justification of life for all human beings.

[marie glen]

Yes Jabcat, that's why I think maybe it's a number of things.. or at least a couple of things.. I'm kind of stuck in an earthy way of thinking which makes me see things in a sense of cause and effect. (Or my own slant on cause and effect?) :laughing7:

I never considered before, the possibility that "prepared for the devil and his angels" could possibly be in the sense of that other verse that says the angels (faithful) are watching and learning.. things being conclusively proven to them also..  :dontknow: :Chinscratch: That the consummation of (culmination?) of history was built in from the beginning/foundation. That to prove the futility of Godlessness/life w/o God the full course is being allowed to run its course. It's the way I think.. Lots of folks think of Armageddon,etc as punishment and God's anger, like He throws bolts from heaven.. Planet X.. whatnot.. and throws people into a fiery lake.

That's not to say the devil and his angels won't also be in the lake of fire, besides watching it unfold,  after all, they're the ones who got the whole ball rolling as to humans living through such frightening and horrific fire. War. How, is, it possible? But, alas, surely it is part of the potential wrapped up in a world not in His perfect will & in close loving union with Him.

Even though I think the potential is fully possible.. that we would"perish".. that the cowardly, etc would have part in the LOF, I really do believe judgment day will be an age (of roughy 500 years) which will be a 'day' of atonement, and that what it takes to be written in the lamb's book of life is to believe (and cleave/follow). And so after an age of judgment (and intense review?) and experiencing being resurrected, I can't think there will be many, if any still not believing and fully reconciled. (And if they have been conscious since their death and during the millennium.. all the longer for their heart to bend the knee..) Of course, I could be way off base!


Rose I love your analogy of one stone not upon another within us and in our building of a life!! How very very true!! :thumbsup:

Romans 5: 18   So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19   For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Whatever the Lake of Fire precisely/exactly is, and there's some great views/ insights here...it results in justification of life for all human beings.

Amen!!  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

"Prepared for the devil and his angels"

"Know ye not that you shall judge angels?"

"so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places."

"but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory"

"When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him."

I think the lake of fire is composed of a great cloud of witnesses surrounding the throne of God. Testimonies of grace consuming the darkness of self righteousness and sin. :o)

[marie glen]

P.S- maybe that's it.. "prepared for the devil and his angels".. all this time they've had to repent, to change their mind.. if they could "leave their first place"... :dontknow:

So more stringent treatment (smelting, purifying) of them is required., but it's the potential that humans, after both the millennium age and judgment 'day', can find portion there (aionian, agelong).. but it is intended for the devil and his angels..

The split atom may have absolutely nothing to do with the LOF, but still be of Armageddon.. and the rebellious may gather there..? Or be gathered there for the final battle which in essence will be against Yahweh and the Lord(?)

I was just thinking tho, how it says "the elements will melt with a fervent heat" and nearby is the verse about a new heavens and new earth wherein righteousness/& rightness will dwell".. i never stopped to think what has happened to the old heavens and earth.. is it going to melt with a fervent heat? We know this ("all" things made new, God will now tabernacle with mankind upon earth) follows both the millennium and judgment 'day'..
  :dontknow: :Peace2:

"Prepared for the devil and his angels"

"Know ye not that you shall judge angels?"

"so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places."

"but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory"

"When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him."

I think the lake of fire is composed of a great cloud of witnesses surrounding the throne of God. Testimonies of grace consuming the darkness of self righteousness and sin. :o)

     :Chinscratch: Another great idea to ponder! :thumbsup: And suggests to me, it may indeed be more than one thing..

[eaglesway]

From another perspective, since all who believe have passed from death into life(names written in the book of life), they are in the river of life, the crystal sea. All those who have not believed are still in death(lake of fire, names not written in the book of life, yet). Since God says "I AM" and "Today if you hear my voice" and who "was and is and is to come"- so that the judgment seat of Christ is always active in the now.

In 1 Tim 5 there is another picture of the throne room, and the LOF(perhaps)as it plays out in the now, and as it will be in THE DAY OF FULLFILLMENT ("that his spirit may be saved in The Day" 1 Cor)

"Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning. 21I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.  1 Tim 5

"he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb" Rev 14:10

For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 COR 5

12Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jjust some thoughts/perspectives to consider. THESE ETERNAL REALITIES ARE SWALLOWING UP IMMORTALITY(Time/Law/Rule/Principality/Power/Death/Sin,Judgment,etc) like a rose unfolding from a tight little bud into a fully opened flower of many petals. So what we see in the word picture(metaphor or type or parable) is true in every age until all has unfolded and that which is imperfect has been swallowed up by that which is perfect.

[rosered]

 :thumbsup: :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

  yes indeed !!!!    the Living works of God as   TRUTH , we are to proclaim  throughout the   whole earth as believers  :dsunny:


Just pondering thoughts Yes Eaglesway      The Lord /Word of God / Resurrection  & Life / Jesus Christ / Lamb of God  , are all one and the same 


and IS  always [now present  in Heaven  ] in the sense ,  "the dead"  will  hear His Voice and LIVE ....[heaven opened ]  Stephen was a prime example of dying in Christ   in Acts as a proof for us all  that   Jesus is reigning supreme and death is not [ in Adam]

[nor  Moses   the law and ministration of death ]  His mind was changed twice !    from dead to God / Adam   to the washing  of the Word  under the old  covenant  mindset  the rainbow and the cloud Genesis 9:13  fulfilling Gods righteousness ,that  is over the mind /heart  when the dove / spirit  rests on them  changed [Matthew 3:16]   Jesus is that same witness on the pattern Son  ,


no more flooding but fire next time    , to the  HOLY SPIRIT &FIRE   one and I believe He is ALIVE IN CHRIST [ part of the Holy Spirit witness &   great cloud of witnesses ]  ZION [ City of innumerable  angels   City of David  in the old and in the new Sion 
the place the  Lord Jesus  is preparing a place for  you, to come again and receive you  unto Himself  John 14:3] Sion   strongs Sion or Zion = "a parched place"  also described as  Sunny Heights   , I CAN SEE THE  Holy Spirit  & fire  OF GOD being  both  at the same time .

When you have an element [ say a jewel  or  metal  refined   in fire , everything  must be removed that was attached to it  , leaving only the  purest form  remaining that  a fire cannot destroy  left [JESUS Christ being that touchstone a piece of fine-grained dark schist or jasper formerly used for testing alloys of gold by observing the color of the mark that they made on it.   


, I see Gold as truth  , when we buy of Him the gold / truth that has already been tested  in that fire  :HeartThrob:  , they say the core of the  earth is  molten  fire , a liquid  magma .  I can see the  comparing our hearts  to the same  metaphor  when touched by Jesus Christ  , this  knowledge  was revealed  and was a mystery  for many ages    melting  the elements   with fervent heat ....
a standard or criterion by which something is judged or recognized.

the hill on which the higher and more ancient part of Jerusalem was built

the southwestern most and highest of the hills on which the city was built

often used of the entire city of Jerusalem

since Jerusalem because the temple stood there, was called the dwelling place of God



We are  ALL considered "dead"  in sin / trespass[Adam / mankind under the law [outwardly appearance ] to God  , until we begin to proclaim our faith  in Him before men     now being  dead in Christ   1st Resurrection  [inwardly   , dying daily to this world  by the renewing of our minds . Romans 12..  and Jesus  declares you before His Father and the  angels  of heaven  Alive in Christ  already ...

I DO believe  the cross was the turning point [fullness of time ] but more so the Raising up of Jesus  Christ [ what a  glorious  work of  the Father !!] Jesus Christ flesh opened the  seals and opened heaven  as    many  of the graves/tombs /hearts  were opened and appeared into the City of Gods presence  .. 

Matt 27  The Death of Jesus
...51At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.[Paul says that being His flesh in Hebrews 10 ;20 ] which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh.

The earth quaked and the rocks were split.

52The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised.

53After Jesus' resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people....

GODS GLORY set in the earth [ as the promise of prophecy  of Jacobs ladder  , Jesus  declares  Heaven opened ,   as  ascending and descending  on the  Son of Man ] John 1


51Then He declared, "Truly, truly, I say to all of you that you will see heaven open and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man."


Genesis 28:12
He had a dream, and behold, a ladder was set on the earth with its top reaching to heaven; and behold, the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.

GLORY TO GOD for the great things He has done and is doing !!! :dsunny:

I was just thinking tho, how it says "the elements will melt with a fervent heat" and nearby is the verse about a new heavens and new earth wherein righteousness/& rightness will dwell".. i never stopped to think what has happened to the old heavens and earth.. is it going to melt with a fervent heat? We know this ("all" things made new, God will now tabernacle with mankind upon earth) follows both the millennium and judgment 'day'..
  :dontknow: :Peace2:

Quote from: eaglesway on Today at 07:36:29 AM
"Prepared for the devil and his angels"

"Know ye not that you shall judge angels?"

"so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places."

"but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory"

"When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him."

I think the lake of fire is composed of a great cloud of witnesses surrounding the throne of God. Testimonies of grace consuming the darkness of self righteousness and sin. :o)

     :Chinscratch: Another great idea to ponder! :thumbsup: And suggests to me, it may indeed be more than one thing..

  I see the ascending and descending of  angels/messengers   of life and death    by JESUS CHRIST/WORD OF GOD /LAMB OF GOD   being the  JUDGE  BY   saying our own words   will justify or   condemn   us all ....


Matt 12...36But I tell you that men will give an account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned." 38Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You."...

Proverbs 18:21
Death and life are in the power of the tongue, And those who love it will eat its fruit.

Matthew 12:36
But I tell you that men will give an account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.

To me  as I am able to understand it now ,  the DAY  of the Lord is judgment day     and this day has  the 1000  year reign   of Christ in it  ,     being that    in Adam / 930 years +   the 70 years of captivity  / Babylon    = 1000  years   and JESUS CHRIST  IS   this fulfilling   of the DAY OF THE LORD and the  children of  the DAY   come out of .......

REV 20    describes to me exactly what Jesus done on the Cross the prince of this world is judged    ,

     the revealing of  the Christ in you is the Spirit of  prophecy  fulfilling of "all things "   of Revelation ,    this is exactly what John described as the DAY OF THE LORD   when He was in the Spirit    and each one of us have our own order and process

I have thought about this over and over again and asking the Lord to please help me understand what   He means in simple terms ,   

  I do believe it is a different  meaning  when you are  in the Spirit and walking in the Spirit of Life  and  when you are still in the flesh .

  1 COR  15  , Paul describes  a beautiful description of how God  changes  ones  life  from mortal to an immortal one .

  I do see the revealing of Christ Jesus as the  book of REVELATION  and the opening the  seals of the WORD OF GOD   though  HIS  FLESH ... and as the DAY OF THE LORD  as John proclaimed in his witness /testimony BY BEING IN THE SPIRIT  and not in the flesh but Jesus Christ flesh ..body

   SPEAKING   in the spirit  by Holy Spirit WITNESS  AS revelation   OF THE  WORD OF GOD / LORD JESUS CHRIST DAY

to me as any one of us also when HE opens the seals  to the" books  ", of the Living and of the dead ..

Rev 1 9    I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance that are in Jesus,

was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and my testimony about Jesus.



10On the Lord's day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,


11saying, "Write in a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea.   

  I still believe the same   WORD AND SPIRIT applies to us to this very day as well . as a greater work of God we will see  as ,we believe  in  HIS WORD AND SPIRIT OF LIFE   working within us  .....  :HeartThrob: