This site (page) says about the lake of fire - Proverbs 17:3 -
"The refining pot is for silver and the furnace for gold, but the Lord tests the hearts."I thought the article was very good at communicating this.. :thumbsup:
http://thetotalvictoryofchrist.com/whatisthelakeoffire.pdf (http://thetotalvictoryofchrist.com/whatisthelakeoffire.pdf)
Some quotes from it:
Quote
The actual
word picture used in these passages has been completely lost in translation simply
because the translators are not metallurgists. Are you curious? Keep reading.
The lake of fire with sulfur is the image of an ancient gold refining process. Literally a
crucible of molten gold with sulfur added to eliminate impurities. This understanding is
confirmed in Revelation 3:18. "I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire." Christ
himself uses the image of gold refined in fire when rebuking the church in Laodicea for
being neither hot nor cold.
The lake of fire was never meant to be understood as an actual lake or realm of
punishment in literal fire. Rather the lake of fire is merely a picture of the gold refiner's
crucible, the process of purifying gold. Understanding the imagery of the Greek words
behind these passages brings the text to life.
and..
Quote
The Greek word translated as "torment" is
actually the word "touchstone". This is the Greek word "basanizó". "Cognate: 931
básanos – originally, a black, silicon-based stone used as "a touchstone" to test the
purity of precious metals (like silver and gold)." - (Strong's Concordance). The Greek
word básanos is where we get the word "basalt", a type of rock that was used for making
touchstones in the ancient world.
The use of the word touchstone absolutely confirms the lake of fire is a gold refiner's
crucible. A touchstone was used in ancient times to check the purity of gold and is still
used by jewelers today. By the striking a line of gold on the touchstone the color
produced reveals the level of purity. That is the meaning of the word "tormented" in
modern bibles, a process for testing the purity of gold.
The Apostle John is using the abstract idea of a person being refined, then tested and refined again.
tested / tempering - "a process whereby metal is strengthened"
:Chinscratch: the gold being made stronger.. tempered.. (and this life of tribulation tempers the gold..)
Quote
This passage should be translated:
"The devil who deceived them was thrown into the refiner's crucible with
sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are also. They will be tested (tempered)
for purity day and night in the ages of ages." - Revelation 20:10.
biblehub's interlinear "for the ages of the ages"
Whow, Marie! I would say that this is a great find!
It pulls together so many of the thoughts and concepts that we speak about on our blog.
Definitely one to remember when explaining how the Bible supports UR.
D.
Literal refining is the best explanation for the process- literally getting rid of the dross/rubbish.
Not a five minute job, but is a purification process. The sacrificial illustrations point to the need for that process, especially when we consider we are to be in a greater state of being with much more responsibility so need to be properly trained to that one purpose.
Nice find Marie.
:iagree: great find
I did know about the word "torment" being touchstone and I believed the lake of fire was a purifying process
so now I KNOW both to be true
Just goes to show us the wisdom of the Father
Excellent find. :thumbsup: Blessings...
good stuff....totally supports the thought in Jeremiah where God says it never even entered His mind to burn human beings in fire like Molech commands....how on earth could the hellists misconstrue the Lake of Fire as a giant liquid fire torture chamber ?
if only preachers and churches knew about this...
But what about satan? Is he also Only tested ?
He is asking Jesus if he is going to torture him before its time in one Verse?
Matthew 8:29
What you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?
It does seem to point to the day of judgement/lake of fire tho and not hell
Quote from: Universell on August 22, 2017, 05:54:01 AM
But what about satan? Is he also Only tested ?
He is asking Jesus if he is going to torture him before its time in one Verse?
Matthew 8:29
What you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?
It does seem to point to the day of judgement/lake of fire tho and not hell
Hello Universell , nice to meet you ... :friendstu:
Not saying that any of us could ever figure out the mind of God on this side of the Jordan , which means an action of moving downward, dropping, or falling.
"the plane had gone into a steep descent"
synonyms: dive, drop; More
2.
the origin or background of a person in terms of family or nationality.
"American families of Hungarian descent"
synonyms: ancestry, parentage, ancestors, family,
A baptism of sorts in my modest opinion , have two meanings and two ways to look upon Gods WORD , as a two edged Sword cutting both ways .
It is appointed unto man to die once and than the judgment ... and we know in Adam all die but in Christ all is made alive
So to me in my very simple understanding and child like trust in Gods Word .
I see all mankind/Adam doing this on a daily basis .
When we are baptized into Christs death , Just as Paul considered to know nothing from now on , but Jesus Christ and Him crucified in the center of the two natures /laws men , leaving that old law and nature behind him ,not to be remembered no more [old man of sin nature in Adam . and the new man TODAY , You shall be with me in paradise , Get behind me satan ....because to me only satan can tempt us though that old nature and law of our members being in the body of death this being our flesh where no good thing dwells . and the new man in Christ is now born again of God and is a new creation , the CROSS IS WHERE JESUS CHRIST AND THE GRACE OF GOD IS IN EFFECT ....
We belong to GOD and live and move and have our being though the body of Christ and is LIFE in the Spirit of God and walking in it , the HOLY SPIRIT teaching us , this powerful WORD with the mind of Christ , to do thy will oh GOD
and the fire of purification to cleanse us of all unrighteousness ... The same HOLY SPIRIT AND FIRE , JESUS BREATHED ON THE disciples /students of the WORD , to be received of Him .touch not the unclean thing [Spirit of prideful Babylon/self righteousness ] and I will receive you !!
When we go back to the law of sin and death we become judges and are judged in my opinion being unmerciful unloving and unforgiving , the law of knowledge of good and evil is the same tree Christ hung upon , being the one and only SON OF GOD to destroy the works of the devil by HIS OFFERING /BLOOD OF THE LAMB OF GOD to take away the sins the whole world !!
so this new man that confessed his sin before Jesus and also confessed Jesus Christ innocence was to rise in Christ , and this anointing of the Holy Spirit of our FATHER /GOD in HIS WISDOM and fire , HIM being a jealous God .Now the Cross to me is a metaphor of passing from death to Life in Christ and His newness of His creation .
For me it is of What Paul expounded upon the WORD OF JESUS CHRIST TO OBTAIN strength to be able to walk in the Spirit of Gods love and protection , we are not our own .
The Holy Spirit and Fire is what keeps us near to Gods heart and keeps the evil one at bay , lest the fire of testing our faith teaches us a lesson of what touch not, do not go back , but forward
running the race JESUS CHRIST IS THE PRIZE , IN the Body of Life is all good things dwell of the FATHER OR you will be burned and consumed by it ..
I have just come though some fiery trials my self , ever learning GODS WORD IS TRUE ........... :HeartThrob:
the devils wrath and time is short , just as our time in the days of our flesh are also , Where no good thing dwells [it is the duster eaters portion ] and food for thought and does not inherit Gods kingdom and in Gods mercy He done this also for our sakes
We suffer for doing good [Spirit of truth] like Jesus did or we suffer for doing evil as the human
race is doing , but these times are for suffering to learn HIS righteousness in the earth and for His glory He will not give to another . Isaiah 42 7To open blind eyes, To bring out prisoners from the dungeon And those who dwell in darkness from the prison. 8"I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images. 9"Behold, the former things have come to pass, Now I declare new things; Before they spring forth I proclaim them to you."...
and there is always so much more to learn of Him and hope this may help in some small way , your thoughts about this subject universell :HeartThrob:
Revelation of Christ....seperates...Come you who are BLESSED..........from You who are CURSED[devil and his]...and expounds
on their differing portions....the Kingdom prepared before the founding of this world....or the LOF. vessels of mercy vs vessels of
God's wrath. LOF consumes and swallows up........sin and death. we are instructed that as it refers unto men/Adam,,,,,,as we have
allbore the image of the corrupt,so,too,shall we bear the image of the incorrupt[the kingdom prepared].
this principle is pictured in Korah's rebellion...when the earth opened it's mouth and some men went down into the earth......
and in the revelation of Christ ...the earth opened it's mouth and helped the woman...swallowing up the flood waters of the dragon
which tried to sweep the woman away. sin in the flesh..condemned=our body of death..of which returns unto the dust.
....the free gift of Grace is the seed of resurrection in the spirit/likeness of Christ...raised up in incorruption. Both life and death are
ours...both images all men bear.....there is an end of the corrupt and a new beginning of the incorrupt for all men.
Jesus took away all the sin...nailed it to the cross..........satan the accusor can kill the body and then do no more......however
God can then throw the spirit in the LOF...and also consume that if He chose to...but He did not choose to do that with man.......
instead He gave the free gift of eternal life unto man....and chose to totally consume death and all corruption. LOF is that
consummation....the end of sin,rebellion,temptations,trials..and also the end of the accusor/temptor/tester..........
you do not test God nor can He be tempted of evil............satan/adversary has no further useful role unto God...and he knows his
time is short/temporal. it is a torment unto him.....that his end is the lof
yeah i understand where Universal is coming from because doesn't the bible say the lake of fire was originally created for Satan and his angels as a place of punishment, not a place for refining humans into gold?
Does that mean God changed His mind?
:Chinscratch:
Jesus spoke in several places about the fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels, and that certain people would also experience it, "Then will He say to those at His left, "'Begone from me, with the curse resting upon you, into the Fire of the Ages, which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels Paul spoke about fire testing and purifying(Matthew 25:41 Weymouth)
Paul spoke of believers being purified by fire and the wicked being purged in fire in several places, as did Peter..
Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you; 13but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation. (1 Peter 4)
Jesus also says
I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. (Rev 3:18).
So, the principle of fire purifying faith and correcting wickedness is all over the Bible
In Malachi 3, the scripture clearly speaks of Messiah purifying believers with fire...
"But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. 3"He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness. 4"Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the LORD as in the days of old and as in former years.
Paul puts it like this.....
For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.(1 Corinthians 3)
James says, writing to a group of believers.....
Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. 2Your riches have rotted and your garments have become moth-eaten. 3Your gold and your silver have rusted; and their rust will be a witness against you and will consume your flesh like fire.( James 5)
Jesus' eyes are as flames in Rev 1, and He says, "I am He that tries the reins and the hearts" and as it is written "He is the radiance of the Father's glory..... and ...."Our God is a consuming fire".
It is important Andrew, to know the scriptures yourself, and not just take another's word for what the Bible says. I could go on and on about examples of fire to purge evil and purify the righteous, but I wouldnt want to rob you of the joy of seeking the truth, and digging for treasure on your own so....
GET TO IT BROTHER!
:thumbsup: :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Amen keep on trying to do good , Obeying His voice and ask for Gods help to keep on keeping on !
Calling upon the name of the Lord , is our help in the hour of need , When God knows our hearts and sees the sincerity or seeing the reason , if it be walking in the Spirit of Life or being to satisfy the flesh and pride of this life , this being also why , not everyone whom says Lord , Lord shall be saved ...Romans 10:13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Matt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven............
Two edged SWORD for sure ....
But also Peter states , judgment begins in the house of the Lord first .... Having received the HOLY SPIRIT &FIRE
Share the Sufferings of Christ
12 Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you; 13 but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation.
14 If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. 15 Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler;
16 but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name. 17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
18 And if it is with difficulty that the righteous is saved, what will become of the godless man and the sinner?
19 Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls/lives to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.
I do believe it is all about hating evil in every sense of the word , and finding no pleasure in doing so .and it does start Gods working within us to change us from walking in the flesh to walking in the Spirit .
Paul said of true believers in Philippians chapter 3, that they "glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh". It is impossible to walk by the Spirit and walk in my own strength. ... At least half of what it means to walk by the Spirit is to rest from my human striving as in a carnal nature against the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of God rests upon us when we hear and obey His Voice and live, as His possession and not possessed by a spirit that is not of God but of the world .
1.
the state of having, owning, or controlling something.
"
synonyms: ownership, control, hands, keeping, care, custody, charge, hold, title, guardianship More
2.
an item of property; something belonging to one.
Zechariah 13:9 says:
'This third I will put into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'The LORD is our God'.
we are His workmanship
I disagree that the scriptures say certain people will expierenceit it. He will refine the Levites[church leaders teachers etc that handle
the Holy things..just as Judas lost his position] that they may make a righteous sacrifice[the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world]
Jesus rebuked the Pharisees[church leaders] and those who did not repent..perished in Jerusalem[a fiery trial for sure]
even their dead bodies burnt in Gehenna..as an example of the twice dead. Of whom represented the wicked one[satan and his angels]
Howeverwe know that all Jerusalem is saved. as demons are invisible..when men's flesh is given over to satan for destruction, that
the spirit be saved on the Day of the Lord...the fruit of that invisible tree is manifested in men's flesh[know the tree by it's fruit/twice dead/two fold the child of hell]
Dead under the law..and the rejection of the saviour[grace] Paul described himself as one born prematurely from this class,God
showing him mercy because he acted in ignorance.[Iwillshow him what he must suffer for my namesake.]..and Jesus sat as a refiner
and purifier of the pharisees/sadducees....and rejected silver[30 pieces/blood money] they become.
since satan and evil spirits are invisible...the flesh of men exhibit openly and outwardly 'their works are wicked" Thus satan
entered Judas flesh to betray Christ.[and the spirit of the liar was already in Judas]...Judas exhibiting openly the wicked works of
satan...liar theif murderer.
we wrestle not flesh and blood..but powers and principalities in high places.
God teaches through positive negative examples...and King Saul..rejected..a spirit troubled him
David's playing soothed Saul..but the spirit he was handed over to manifest in murderous intent to David/spear throwing etc
and took him to the destruction of his flesh.......just as the jewish religious leaders manifest murderous intent to Christ and the
believers.
the LOF is prepared for satan and his angels only. Jude 7 IN a similiar way Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding town give
themselves up to sexual immorality and perversions THEY SERVE AS AN EXAMPLE OF THOSE WHO SUFFER THE PUNISHMENT OF
ETERNAL FIRE. thus some men serve as examples of satan and his coming destruction. Just as in a western you have the
white hat and black hat.....acting roles. Moses and Pharoah,David and Goliath......example= to illustrate a rule or precept.
illustrate=TO ENLIGHTEN MENTALLY :2c:
The scripture says that the LOF was prepared by the devil and his angels in the midst of the verses where Jesus says some people will experience it,
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into gthe eternal fire(aionian fire) prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?' 45 Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Mt 25
The verse that says the fire was prepared for the devil and his angels, says that some people will experience it and several others like it, including Rev 20:10-15 and Matthew 18:8
"And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire".
"And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal(aionian) fire."
Again, imo the lake of fire is the presence of God and all the saints surrounding the throne, piercing the hearts of the wicked and exposing hidden things to the light....
"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." Rev 14
9"I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10"A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened. Daniel 7
I believe the spiritual, universal, body of Christ is the lake of fire, "Know you not that you will judge angels?"......"Know you not that you will judge the world"
I believe these verses in Hebrews are a description of what the lake of fire represents metaphorically.
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.
25 See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven. 26 And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I will shake not only the earth, but also the heaven." 27 This expression, "Yet once more," denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; 29 for our God is a consuming fire.
Like the bronze laver at the entrance to the Holy Place, everyone must wash in this before they enter to partake of the bread of presence and the golden lampstand. We are washed in it already, by His indwelling presence. Evryone will be washed in it eventually, each in their own order.
James 3;8-,10.....with the tougne we bless God andcurse men..made in His similitude. Genesis 3;14...and the Lord God said,'Because
THOU hast done this..you are cursed above all cattle and every beast of the field" Romans 9;3 Numbers 5;24 and he shall cause
the woman to drink the bitter water that causes the curse..and the water that causeth the curse shall enter in her and become
bitter. Note the priest blots out the written curses and has her to drink the bitter water Luke 6;20-49
the woman caught in the act of adultery....and the woman saved through child-bearing...and the seed of the woman that
crushes the head of the serpent.
Exodus 15;22-23 3 days journey after crossing Red Sea.........bitter waters of Marah. and the Lord showed him abranch,
[tree] when he had cast it in the waters,the waters were made sweet.
Rev 20;11-15 books opened...judgement[as we have all bore the image of the corruptible]so too,shall we all bear the image of
the incorruptible. just as sin entered through one manand death reigned[AND I SAW THE DEAD STANDING BEFORE THE THRONE
. Note;satan,the beast and false prophet thrown in LOF before judgement of the dead[all men died]
..BOOK OF LIFE OPENED/free gift. all things are yours..both death and life..
...if anyones name was not written in the book of life[All things are mine...I shall raise it up at the last day]Lord of the living and dead.
I am not debating with you...but expounding on my reasoning from the scriptures as to my differing pov. :2c:
"......expounding on my reasoning from the scriptures as to my differing pov" Another way to say debate LOL. But I have no problem with friendly discussion and debate.
I think there is plenty of room for discussion and interpretation as to what aionian fire, gehenna, the lake of fire, etc, are- and whether or not they are even the same thing, but Jesus clearly says that people will experience it, so I dont see any scriptures being presented that can disembowel the verses I listed where He says that. Peter, Paul, James and John also all present a view within which they clearly state that people will experience aionian fire, so my pov is that some certainly will.
I think my reason for saying that could be misinterpeted by some but-
Te idea that God will assay the people through fire in His presence does not frighten or disgust me.....
because I think aionian fire is a metaphorical description of the impenetrable light of the Almighty, like the flames is in Jesus' eyes because the eye is the light of the soul, and Jesus is filled up to all the fulness of God who is a consuming fire...
Light is fire to darkness, and "every hidden thing will be brought to light", and as Paul told the Ephesians, "But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatever does make manifest is light."
So the fire is a good thing, for us now, for some others in the ages to come. To reprove the works of darkness makes them manifest, and Jesus says, "I am He that tries the reins and the hearts."
"All things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do"
He is both the ultimate reproof, manifest upon the cross as perfect love, shining from His throne as the reconciler and restorer- the Savior of all, gathering all things unto Himself "For He must reign until every enemy is made a footstool for His feet.... the last enemy to be subjected is death".
Yes !!! I can see both ways , in the spiritual sense of '' interpretations''
There are some very ''thoughtful '' meanings and questions answered .
I love that :HeartThrob:
GOD Himself being expressed as a consuming fire also called Spirit and Love
And if only we could consider this , The angel Michael , knew to ask the LORD HIMSELF for a rebuke against Satan
when contending for the body of Moses [law and ministration of death ] as Paul called it and also called it a good thing .
I personally can only see if God is in you[Christ in you ] this same anointing[HOLY SPIRIT &FIRE ] as well as being flesh and blood as human beings [Adam]/mankind] where Paul said , [no good thing dwells ] evil , Only GOD IS GOOD as the Lord Jesus spoke in the days of His flesh and blood as a son of man , as very well as a Son of God REVEALED , and would very well prove a fire in the heart [LOF ] , being spiritual in nature and interpretation to destroy the works of the devil .[Being of GODS truth and power over all evil ]
as BOTH being present at the same time , being the pattern Son we all are to learn of and from .
Jesus Christ given the Spirit without measure , would and could prove to us all GODS HEART OF LOVE for all mankind by the gift of grace poured out upon all flesh , just as the promises of God unfold in the new testament [Spirit of prophecy] Jesus Christ witness /testimony /LIVING WORD to the end .. that even Paul expounded upon and brought even more Light / knowledge of the Life in Christ and Spirit .
GOD the Holy Father will ultimately be all in all by HIS PERFECT WORK , Where all will Glory IN GOD, in the LORD Jesus Christ , and rejoice in HIS LOVE , as the WORD OF TRUTH [subject to] Jesus Christ is His name , IS FULFILLED BY HIS SPIRIT OF TRUTH .[LIFE ITSELF ] :HeartThrob:
GODS plan of the ages ,to me , has always been being fulfilled [eyes cannot see and ears cannot hear and heart cannot understand by human standards & reasoning ] and brought to life and light by all the many , many witnesses , the heavenly Zion that expands beyond literal containment ...........
This joy unspeakable and full of glory of GOD !!!!!!!!!!! :dsunny: :HeartThrob: :banana:
I absolutely I think the Holy Spirit and fire is Christ in you the hope of glory, and that the "glorious liberty of the children of God" is the love of God.
For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15 from who every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.
20 Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us, 21 to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen. Eph 3:14-21
I think the love of God is the fire of God(and vice versa), consuming everything that is not of love until God is all in all. His presence is love manifest as light, and in the scriptures we see both rivers of flame(Daniel 7:10) and rivers of living water, pouring forth from Him(Rev 2:1)- metaphors for various elements of His presence, His being "who alone dwells in unaproachable light.
I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen
No one has ever seen God. The One and Only Son-- the One who is at the Father's side-- He has revealed Him. John 1:18
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. Heb 1;1-3
I don't know, but I have often wondered if being baptized with the Holy Spirit was a symbol of the lake of fire? Jesus was baptized in a lake, or river, so is most people who are saved. John said "he that cometh after me shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and WITH FIRE". Baptism symbolizes a physical death to sin and a spiritual resurrection to life. Isaiah says "the Lord will WASH AWAY the filth by judgment and the SPIRIT OF BURNING". Could this be a type of baptism. Maybe this is how everyone will be cleansed of their filthiness. Baptized in water.. {lake} with Holy Spirit..{fire}. Lake of fire.
Just a thought. :dontknow: :Chinscratch:
CHB
baptize is wash..the lavers/molten sea was for washing the hands and feet of the ministers of God[holy things]. the LORD,Lord didn't we
class also seem a ministerial/priesthood type to me. false apostle's decietful workers,false christs as messengers[angels] of satan
is as it appears unto me. not many should be teachers...a heavier judgement...etc. evidently the 'word' that I have spoken unto you,
has not made them clean.not all are clean[Judas].or maybe He didn't call or choose them..but a satan transformed himself into an angel of light and brought
them forth[like prophets of Baal and of the groves] anyway..hands and feet not washed..but the whole body thrown in.Jesus denies
knowing them or having had called them unto the ministry.evidently their 'works' in His name were lyings signs/miracle's etc.
the clue-infor me..is the being thrown out into the outer darkness[if the light in you be darkness[satan] how great is that darkness..
and the Holy city allows no unclean etc thing access...outside are the..so the washing of His people with His word/true sayings of God
and the binding of hand and feet and breaking up the works of the devil/lier/false prophet/beasts etc are cast into the outer darkness..
the satans hour of darkness/power..Luke 22;52 Jesus said to the" chief priests."..."officers of the temple guard"..and "elders"
.....v53...but this is your hour when darkness reigns.. Rev 17;12 authority as kings one hour along with the beast. 3 kings..are these
the ones that do not enter anddoes not allow others to?..3 unclean spirits......
just pondering.....
cut off your right hand= Zech 3;1 and 2 satan standing at his right side to accuse him...is this not a branch snatched from the fire?
and the right offending eye.....or is thy eye evil because I am good Matthew 20;15 jealousy/envy[elder son/prodigal]
there are 7 eyes on that one stone,and I will engrave an in-scription on it...and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day
Quote from: CHB on August 29, 2017, 09:14:30 PM
I don't know, but I have often wondered if being baptized with the Holy Spirit was a symbol of the lake of fire? Jesus was baptized in a lake, or river, so is most people who are saved. John said "he that cometh after me shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and WITH FIRE". Baptism symbolizes a physical death to sin and a spiritual resurrection to life. Isaiah says "the Lord will WASH AWAY the filth by judgment and the SPIRIT OF BURNING". Could this be a type of baptism. Maybe this is how everyone will be cleansed of their filthiness. Baptized in water.. {lake} with Holy Spirit..{fire}. Lake of fire.
Just a thought. :dontknow: :Chinscratch:
CHB
Can even take that a step further ..... even people can be understood as a sea or lake ..... can the lake of fire be a people of God's Burning Spirit?
just another thought
I would think that concept would have to be weighed against this; "...prepared for the devil and his angels"
Quote from: jabcat on August 30, 2017, 01:09:54 AM
I would think that concept would have to be weighed against this; "...prepared for the devil and his angels"
IMO it is ...... who is the devil but a traducer, a false accuser and his messengers (angels)..... are there not many false accusers and messengers in this world saying that not all of mankind will be saved, that they will be sent to their idea of what hell is?
Are those not false accusations?
I personally am not sure I could "stretch" it to that exact point. Really my thought though is, to say the Lake of Fire is the infilling of the Holy Spirit and/or people filled with the Holy Spirit, would be to say the infilling of the Holy Spirit was created..originally intended..for the devil (and then also, his angels). I don't know that people, on the earth today, would be the angels in question in the passage. Maybe, to me it just bears careful consideration, weighing the whole of it. Maybe some can reconcile it to that, and maybe there's some correctness to it. I'm just suggesting there could be some serious hesitation - at least a need to accurately be able to reconcile all those things before I could say that's what the LOF is. :2c:
I personally don't necessarily consider someone that teaches ET to be an angel of satan. Maybe some are, who aren't really saved, but to trust Christ as Savior makes someone a child of God - despite other doctrinal issues. So on first take, to me, it just seems problematic. Or at least, to require some serious explanation/clarification/exogesis (that's a fancy word i don't use very often lol). I don't know if 'angel' in the passage strictly means messenger, or more so "one of satan's children/gang, in his particular hierarchy" (rather than a child of God who may have some faulty doctrine). :dontknow: another :2c:
I believe Jesus explains the lake of fire in Matthew 13 very well .
and again in
Matt 25 41 , 'Depart from Me, those being cursed, into the eternal fire, having been prepared for the devil and his angels.
For me the eternal fire is GODS WORD & HOLY SPIRIT that is a witness though out all ages and stages , God is a consuming fire .
in a literal sense of the world as a field prepared for planting [ basically to me it is our hearts /minds [Seed is the Word of God Luke 8 ;11 /Truth GOOD seed or the seed of Satan/THORNS /tares = evil ] and the spiritual meaning of it also as ages and stages of Spiritual growth in Truth and grace .1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed/ death is the end result, but of imperishable/everlasting life , through the living and enduring word of God.
God set eternity in every mans heart Ecclesiastes 3:11New American Standard Bible (NASB)
God Set Eternity in the Heart of Man
11 He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.
I do believe we experience ''all things '' in ages and stages of the world as a whole and in our piece and short mortal existence allotted with or without calling upon the name of the Lord ....
If the devils bristle up in fear in Gods presence what is this saying in James 2 than ? , To me as I perceive Gods Word is saying in this time of trying to understand it , It is by faith we also believe knowing that we are trees of knowledge of good and evil in every last one of us and who is in control over the body[land / field= world , and the battle over control of it
James 2
If the ...18But someone will say, "You have faith and I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19You believe that God is one. Good for you! Even the demons believe that, and shudder! 20O foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is worthless?...
Jesus had a strong message in when He told anyone reading the WORD OF GOD that we are to make the tree good and its fruit good or make the tree evil and its fruits [ doings ] a tree is known by its fruits , these works of faith and belief or rebellion against Gods Word , and the WORD judges like a two edged SWORD dividing within us and scattering or gathering which ever fruits is produced /works of evil in every form or the steadfast working of God within you .
being more as God gives the increase or taken away to be burned in the fire of the Lambs presence
destroying the image of the beast , that false idol and image created by the vain imaginations of mankinds worship Romans 1 , is to me one of the best descriptions in the Bible that explains how the false image is manifested .
Rev14 9And a third angel followed them, calling in loud a voice, "If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or hand,
10he too will drink the wine of God's anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
11And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. Day and night there will be no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."...
To me as I understand it and not able to understand ''everything in order '' is being as honest as I know how to be about it , Know Jesus Being the two edged Sword / Word in His mouth come to destroy the works of Satan and set the captives of Babylon free from the power given by God to both the beast for a time and the the Lord as His judgments are in the earth as well as HIS WORD that judges everything and HOLDS everything , From the beginning to the end from the head to the feet , casting out and destroying all things that offend .AS THE HOLY ONE .
Col 1 ...16For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and firstborn from among the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence....
Here are more strong and faithful scriptures to prove GOD IS IN CONTROL
John 1:3
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
John 1:10
He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him.
Romans 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen.
Romans 11:36
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen.
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.
Ephesians 1:10
as a plan for the fullness of time, to bring all things in heaven and on earth together in Christ.
Ephesians 1:20
which He exerted in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly realms,
Ephesians 1:21
far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come.
the age of a child , as well as the age of a heir 4 Now I say, as long as the heir is a child,
he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything,
2 but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. Only the Father in heaven knows the time for change of garments , from rags to true riches being clothed in Christ , the promised land or taken away from any one of us what we thought we had [Matthew 24:36 and 37
[from captivity to Christ coming and gathering into Himself and scattering abroad and destroying with the testing of fire within us all . ]
3 So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, [this age ]
5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God. [ Rev 12 ] the Christ child in you the hope of glory having the WORD OF GOD /TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST /SPIRIT OF PROPHECY AND INCORRUPTIBLE SEED /Word of Truth THAT CAN NEVER BE DESTROYED ,changed nor burned up , the age coming without an end .
Colossians 1:20
and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross.
To me , evil cannot exist in the end of all things , because in Gods presence no such thing can endure or remain any longer , but be consumed , because God is a consuming fire . and is a jealous God in the sense , there will be no other gods before Him , we can only glory in the Lords presence by the Spirit of truth and the Word of Truth that cannot be corrupted ever , Gods mercy endures forever and His wrath for a moment [to destroy evil once and for all and for good , death is swallowed up in Victory and is no more fear or lack , but Love has won the battle ] .
when the mortal puts on immortality 1 Corn 15 ...53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable,
and the mortal with immortality.
54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: "Death has been swallowed up in victory." 55"Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?"...
the sting of death is found in Rev 9 and can only hurt and harm , 2nd death , the evil presence of unjust judges ] but there is good also within the Law of good and evil , to me the outer courts [Paul called this the body of death /Moses seat ] Jude explains it briefly
as the 1st death is in Adam , a spirit of ruling over the soul / life within us all must die at the cross ,the second is the seat of Moses in whom we trust under the old law and covenant witness , did not love their lives unto death ,[throwing down the crowns and authority Rev 4 ] till Christ must come to bring in the new age and covenant witness and fulfills all things within us ..
When seeing the Cross of Christ and What Jesus says in His red letters and also what Paul preaches also to us , I can see that the two thieves on the cross to the left of CHRIST is the old Adam and cannot be the husband [seed bearer ] but must die first , for the law of Moses to be fulfilled though Christ Jesus HE becomes the new husband[SON / SUN ruler of the DAY , to bear the Holy seed to His body /woman true church under His authority [ headship ] [Rev 12 ] after the moon is under her feet ,,, and Moses [the moon ruler of the night Gen 1 ;16 ] being the right , today you will be with me in Paradise , as judging also under the authority given by GOD 15and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so.
16God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. 17God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth,...
the stars are the angels , or messengers of covenants
I can also see that James told us the truth as a witness in James 1 , when He said GOD is the giver of Lights and those gifts of His goodness are found in both covenants and rulers .
16Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers.
17Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, with whom there is no change or shifting shadow.
18He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation....
I can also see that the crown of thorns Christ wore upon His head made by the old law and covenant witness , ministration of death and violence , were the works , that are set to be burned up being on the head of Christ true authority and cannot endure forever , suffering and tasting death for every man , Paul understood this after Christ had come to Him blinding Him by the true Light of His coming , under the old law Paul confessed he was a child and serving the Lord thinking he was doing God a great service by killing and being a murderer , Moses being that bloody man , because of the circumcision and given authority to do so that good might come from the revealing of the sinful nature in us all , but Jesus Christ brings in the new covenant of Gods grace by setting us free from that old law and nature to judge our brothers and sisters by that Law of good and evil , , as Paul said , he would know nothing from now on , but Jesus Christ and Him crucified !!! and the race set before him from that point onward ...
Here we can see by the study of thorns , kicking against the pricks and goads that Paul was delivered from by the Lord Jesus Christ coming to him and setting him free by the truth ....When you live by the Sword you also die by the same two edged Sword / WORD OF GOD ... Sharp as to cut between the soul/ life and the Sprint [ Hebrews 4 ]
Hebrews 2 8and placed everything under his feet."
When God subjected all things to him, He left nothing outside of his control.
Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him.
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because He suffered death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
10In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting for God, for whom and through whom all things exist, to make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering..... not loving our lives unto death , being in the first resurrection [ the Cross of the Lord Jesus Christ baptized in His death as forgiveness is the grace of God shown to all ] THE HOLY OF holies go to our inner room the HOLY PLACE is in His presence , you are the temple of the Living God ....
1 Cor 3 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss.
He himself will be saved, but only as one being snatched from the fire.
16Do you not know that you yourselves are God's temple, and that God's Spirit dwells in you?
17If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is holy, and you are that temple....
thorns set to be burned up in bundles as well as all works not of God in His presence ...
http://www.blbclassic.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=thorns&t=KJV (ftp://www.blbclassic.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=thorns&t=KJV)
This is hard to follow , and I dont claim to be a know it all and have it all figured out , on the contrary , I just know this pondering of the Lords working in us all comforts me greatly and as we are learning of Him how truly blessed we are and How He keeps this hunger and thirsting after Him a very satisfying and humble experience to just keep trusting Him all the more . I am certain if there is any error it will be burned up /consumed in His presence , HE IS FAITHFUL AS PROMISED . enduring the fire of Gods consuming love for us and not desiring to be a drunkard , but sober and waiting on the Lord to lead us into all truth for His names sake . [ Isaiah 28 ]
I take every thought captive in obedience to Christ ..... and since God's understanding of things is infinite, I cannot deny any possibility, because with God all things are possible
All things describe all things IN us, from what we were to what we are becoming, (the beginning and the end IN us, which is Christ) it is just part of how I understand "all in all"
just my thoughts
Quote from: jugghead on August 30, 2017, 02:11:20 AM
Quote from: jabcat on August 30, 2017, 01:09:54 AM
I would think that concept would have to be weighed against this; "...prepared for the devil and his angels"
IMO it is ...... who is the devil but a traducer, a false accuser and his messengers (angels)..... are there not many false accusers and messengers in this world saying that not all of mankind will be saved, that they will be sent to their idea of what hell is?
Are those not false accusations?
yes, agreed.
Today when I was reading Rev 20:14 and 15, I was struck with, not only how verse 14 says death is thrown into the LOF, which I take to mean is at that time no more.. also "hades" (unseen) in that verse is also thrown into the LOF.. Lately I've realized the biggest thing (to me) about death, when we lose loved ones they are no longer seen.. no longer around..ie. are unseen.. and so the verse struck me as "unseen" will no longer be.. hence no one unseen.. (same as no one dead, I know.. :laughing7: but it was like a double whammy.. And seemed important to me that verse 14 precedes verse 15.. anyone whose name is not (by then?) written in the book of life / i.e. not believing, will go to the LOF.. So once again I am thinking the LOF made for the devil and his angels will actually have no humans in it at all..
I've also been finding myself reading "agelong or ageduring judgment" along the lines of age of judgment.. [and if the ancient fall holy days are the pattern of His long 2nd advent, 10 days between Trumpets and DOA signifying the 1000 yr millennium, then the 5 days between DOA and Tabernacles, signifying a 500 year 'day' - which of course is only theory, but I really don't see how it would take more than 500 years for God to pierce every heart/psyche.. the ones thrown to the LOF in chapter 19 being, imo, institutions/systems/belief of man active at the time of Jesus' return, and not persons..
Otherwise, too.. I think LOF is the fires of armageddon/split atom, etc, and the one which consumes after the 1000 years those who surround the holy city, after satan is loosed for a short time.. (which of course is before the resurrection of all those who died not yet believing and thus "still in their sins" (DOA/day of atonement for the D.O.A./(still) 'dead' on arrival / not yet born again)
And all this, suffering and living through consequences.. indeed does purify.. and convince of truth versus error.. Was reading about the greek word telos.. "purpose, consummation, intent, end goal, closure.."
:Peace2:
I'm trying to separate out what I understand being said lately in this thread about what the LOF is. Please comment, clarify, explain, etc.
The Lake of Fire is
a) The Holy Spirit
b) the baptism of the Holy Spirit
c) the people who are baptized in the Holy Spirit
d) nuclear warfare/capability/calamity are the Lake of Fire.
All of the above were prepared (created?) for satan and his angels.
Anyone who doesn't believe in UR, whether they are in Christ/have become a child of God or not (Rm. 10:9,13, Jn 1:12) are satan's angels and will go there.
Some context for Lake of Fire: ^^^^^^^^^
Matthew 25:40,41,46 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;..And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
Revelation 19:20: "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet[6] that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."
Revelation 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
Revelation 20:14-15 "Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."
Revelation 21:8 "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."
(J.Preston Eby believes the Lake of Fire is God's glory, His presence; "HIS GLORY is a LAKE OF FIRE AND BRIMSTONE - divine, cleansing, purging, purifying, consuming fire! In ages yet unborn God shall expose ALL MEN to the sweet abiding presence of the Lamb. They will come under such severe processings, under such profound conviction that they will be tormented and have no rest day or night until they finally yield. And when they do, many fountains of tears will flow with weeping, praying, and calling upon the Lord.I believe it! God hasten it!") http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html
**Marie...David and Zoe Sulem, who are members here but not active in awhile (David told me due to being very active in their own projects) believe the LOF is both literal/physical and spiritual. They talk about unbelievers being in it when the earth is cleansed by fire/melts with a "fervent heat", etc., prior to new heavens and new earth. When I read that I thought of your nuclear holocaust scenario.. :dontknow: http://godsplanforall.com/free-online-book/part-i/chapter-12-the-lake-of-fire-judgement-age-part-1/
:2c: I'm more in line with the literal/spiritual concept. just as when God called Lot out of sodom/gomorrah...I see allmen's spirits
redeemed and part of God's lot...the two men,two women,one taken one left behind. I believe He isgoing to remove all our spirits
[His lot/portion] suddenly....and only our dead flesh remain for burningby a literal fire/as well as the 'flesh' of evil spirits that
will be consumed.
man does not live by bread alone..but by every 'word' that comes forth from the mouth of God. elements [thoughts of God/our bread]
being intensely hot[manna when sun rose would melt from heat of the sun] I believe that 'UPWARD CALL" Paul looked for is
'suddenly He shallcome unto His temple"[ourbody of flesh] and we shall all be changed in the twinkling of an eye[transformed into
spiritual bodies/or delivered from this body of death.
ty for sharing that jabcat...I had no idea other's had similiar perspectives.
the two wittnesses...laying as dead in sodom/egypt to me can represent the testimony of Jesus Christ and the Holy spirit..being
overcome of carnal men's minds/thinking/that fallshort of God's higher thoughts and how He fulfills these things.[beast killed]
and the upward call..to 'come up here" can be people's understanding coming up to God's higher thoughts,or a literal rising
of our spirits to always dwell with the Lord.I believe He is doing both at present and a grand finale for all is in our future.
erronous thinking of what He means[or our carnal/flesh mis-interpretations of His words and what they mean] result in people
mocking'where is His promised coming.." or 'God is dead" type reasonings..add in false prophets/lying spirits that mislead man
and there yougo.
I know that He will certainly settle all this mess and deliver allmen from confusion.....and deliver all men and perfect our
understanding,too. we are all in good hands...we can put full faith in Him.
Quote from: sheila on August 31, 2017, 04:30:52 PM
:2c: I'm more in line with the literal/spiritual concept. just as when God called Lot out of sodom/gomorrah...
ty for sharing that jabcat...I had no idea other's had similiar perspectives.
:thumbsup:
I have this understanding that GOD IS IN COMPLETE CONTROL ...... JESUS WORDS always confirms it .
Just as Jesus told Pilate , You would have no power at all if not given from above , when Pilate said I have authority to release you or crucify you...
God gives the beast authority to eat the flesh of Babylon and put it in their hearts to burn her with fire ..
W hen Jesus said , when He blew on the disiples giving them power / authority to remit or retain sins on whom ever they came into contact with ...
Alos Jesus told us in the gospels that all manner of blsphey shall be forgiven when speaking against the Father or Son , But NOT the HOLY SPIRIT
CONSIDERING THESE SCRIPTURES TO JESUS TESTIMONY.........The Beast from the Sea
...6And the beast opened its mouth to blaspheme against God and slander His name and His tabernacle—those who dwell in heaven.
7Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.
8And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
Now I have read that satan gives authority to the beast in Rev , but God gave Satan permission to touch Job and Peter and sift them as wheat ..
I have been thinking about this stuff for awhile now
and it is in the HOLY SPIRIT THAT MAKES THE WORD ALIVE in us , bringing us also back from the dead when we die under the law of sin nature , taking up our cross and following Jesus .... Than does the Life in Christ bring in the new and living way ...
I can see many ways that God has made possible , what has always been impossible with mankind , these works are the miracles that the Lord speaks of , raising the dead to Life in Christ , in the here and now as well as the last day of ones earthly existence ,,,
I am not conformed to just one way of thinking , when it comes to Gods work in the earth ...
I BELIEVE the HOLY SPIRIT /GHOST IS THE Source of all POWER and authority of anything ever created into existence or being ......
It is a huge leap of faith , but it is also a simple and trusting kind of faith in the power of Gods will being done ...
I would love to clarify somethings hopefully :sigh: ,
I believe from the scriptures that , death reigned till Moses , I see this as a age [ a certain space of time ]
When the law of Moses come it was to expose sin and put it to death ,but what this law could not do by death of lambs goats and bulls and a constant reminder of sin , this LAW is without mercy [ Jesus/Lamb of God come to fulfill this requirement by the law in our place ] tasting death for every man . [ age waiting on the promises of Gods mercy & grace come]
I believe when Jesus spoke of blaspheming the Holy Spirit in this age or the age to come / under grace , it was still meant for those under the law of Moses in whom may put their trust in .
and as they judge so would they also be judged , Jesus confirmed this in the 4 gospels and it is of the jots and tittles of the law being fulfilled in the tree of knowledge of good and evil[all mankind locked up under the law and ministration of death and the fear of death ] and to make the tree good and its fruit ,
this can only be done by believing in the name of THE LORD JESUS CHRIST in whom God/Father sent in the fullness of time , the age to come to me is when GOD raised up the LORD JESUS CHRIST giving Him full authority over everything totally till the end ... as the scriptures come alive as the Holy spirit speaks them to us as those seals are opened and all things begin to happen as Jesus foretold them in the Book of Revelation of Jesus Christ being called the WORD OF GOD in Heaven and the SPIRIT IS WHAT gives it Life ,
Any being spiritual in this new nature hears what the Spirit is saying and will live and never die .... Jesus spoke of this coming to pass after His resurrection [ being the RESURRECTION &LIFE ]
To me , it could be as simple as when you speak evil against LIFE [HOLY SPIRIT ] and try to destroy it you are than destroyed [being death itself and its rider ] rev 6 these are some messengers of death for sure speaking against Gods SPIRIT OF LIFE big time in the world unfortunately :sigh:
7And when the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!" 8Then I looked and saw a pale horse. Its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed close behind. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill by sword, by famine, by plague, and by the beasts of the earth.
and fulfilling Isaiah 33 all of it , here is the first few lines ...
1Woe to you, O destroyer,
While you were not destroyed;
And he who is treacherous, while others did not deal treacherously with him.
As soon as you finish destroying, you will be destroyed;
As soon as you cease to deal treacherously, others will deal treacherously with you.
I can see this as Satan/adversary against the SPIRIT OF LIFE and those fallen stars [angels of darkened hearts in death and Hades ] that which is out of sight, a Greek word used to denote the state or place of the dead. All the dead alike go into this place. To be buried, to go down to the grave, to descend into hades, are equivalent expressions. In the LXX. this word is the usual rendering of the Hebrew sheol, the grave
Ephesians 4 New Life in Christ
17So I tell you this, and testify to it in the Lord: You must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking.
18They are darkened in their understanding and alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts.
19Having lost all sense of shame, they have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity, with a craving for more.... :sigh:
gentiles goyim / strongs וֹי gôwy, go'-ee; rarely (shortened) גֹּי gôy; apparently from the same root as H1465 (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; hence, a Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts:—Gentile, heathen, nation, people. non Jew a clan , [ mark of the beast nature ? I was like a beast before you Lord .. ] ,,,,, trample the outer court , revelations 11 The Two Witnesses
1Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the number of worshipers there. 2But exclude the courtyard outside the temple.
satan was cast down unto the earth to devour the man child as soon as it was born [ Rev 12 ] ..satan is like a lion seeking whom He may devour ... all these scriptures are God breathed and inspire & enlighten us all.
Do not measure it, because it has been given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. 3And I will empower my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for a thousand two hundred sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."...
I see the HOLY SPIRIT [GOD ] as doing both allowing the trampling and empowering the two witnesses , as lawlessness abounds , grace will abound the more
MAKING KNOWN HIS TRUTH/Word by the SPIRIT speaking , to the new man in Christ as healed by Jesus given new eyes to see and ears to hear and heart understand what the Holy Spirit is witnessing or gives or serve as evidence of; testify to.PROOF OF ANOINTING WITH OIL /Holy Spirit this oil and fire make light known ..
Col 1 25I became its servant by the commission God gave me to fully proclaim to you the word of God,
26the mystery that was hidden for ages and generations but is now revealed to His saints,
27to whom God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory....
:HeartThrob:
Amen 'guys'! (brothers and sisters).. How can we believe other than He is in complete control, what with His being Almighty :thumbsup:
I believe the LOF is spiritual and somewhat literal.. "a fire streams forth from in front of His throne" consuming away all impurity.. in lesser and greater degrees(?)
If He chooses who comes to the faith during this lifetime, I can't help wondering why then He would be any more harsh with those who rise after the millennium and not yet born again, than He has been with any of us..
And the time gap between His return and 'day' of judgment makes me think those who are gathered to be burned at His return may well be the tares gathering for Armageddon (to destroy Israel?) But it ends up as the treading of the grapes of wrath..
However it all unfolds, He is surely in perfect control and all things are working together for good and only good..
Thanks Jabcat., it's good to know I'm not completely alone in my ruminatings concerning a split atom kind of lake/sea/flood (result of man's own doings?) :ty:
Quote from: marie glen on September 01, 2017, 02:12:37 AM
If He chooses who comes to the faith during this lifetime, I can't help wondering why then He would be any more harsh with those who rise after the millennium and not yet born again, than He has been with any of us..
:iagree: The example of provision of God's directions' for decisions and provision were in the wilderness;
Major stuff was decided by lot; so that no man could lay claim to the glory/success of the mission.
Paul makes that statement ;
" But when God, Who had set me apart from my mother's womb, and called me by His grace.."[Gal 1;15]
Add in Romans 9;11,12 " For even before they were born or had done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose might stand
according to election, not because of works, but because of His call.."
One of the biggest disputes among religions is about the predestination theories.
I.M.O until being born of the spirit we do not fully know the truth- ergo each at their appointed time so that none can glory in their own work/efforts instead of recognising the position as literally new in Christ.
That awareness will be brought to life in the resurrection so that all will fully understand and come and give glory to our wondrous creator.
I too believe it is Gods glory ..
I think one of the main things that helped me the most was Jesus saying what he would do
at the cross ,,,,,all that trembling and falling and dividing in the earth come !! I do believe it was outwardly , but more so spiritually speaking it was proof of what was happening
within us all ... not one stone upon another would or could any of us build upon , but Him first and foremost as far as trusting to build a solid foundation to stand on . He is the TRUTH made known .
49
I have come to ignite a fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!
50But I have a baptism to undergo, and
how distressed I am until it is accomplished!...
QuoteRevelation 20:14-15 "Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."
Revelation 21:8 "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."
I can see duel natures at odds splitting within every last one born of woman under the law ! in Adam all die , we have the new husbandman redeemer dead in Adam /mankind , but this second death is under the law of Moses , being blessed in the sight of the Lord are the death of his saints holy ones .. those did not love their lives unto death all the law and prophets proved it as a Truth .
now that the Word come , blessed is He who is in the first Resurrection the second death has no power or hold on those born again whom is of the incorruptible seed ... Christ in you the hope of glory ...
to the woman seed Gen 3' 15...14The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life; 15
And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel."
16To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children;
Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."... Christ is the new head authority over the woman / body
Christ / Head and Woman = body of the TRUTH is the seed being the incorruptible WORD OF GOD eternal LIFE ,
to destroy the seed of that old serpent Satan as corruptible, being a liar and thief , murderer and sure death
JESUS PROVED death could not hold HIM, His WORD OF TRUTH by the power of the FATHER = HOLY SPIRIT OF TRUTH where everything is gathering into HIMSELF , being the firstborn from the dead and being the mediator of the new Covenant , the new and living way ....
I do see the world is on fire metaphorically speaking as a powerful fire and witness , resembling a baptism of sorts as to melting the elements , elemental and formal things/appearances that the law represented though the law of Moses fooling mankind , but not the Holy Spirit and those protected by the gathering of the Lord into His BODY /sheepfold
. as the Spirit of discernment is given not to judge by appearances ..which being carnally minded seems to believe in/trust but fails the test .
[Moses in whom you trust ] Jesus / Word /Son of God says you break one law you BROKE THEM ALL , making it impossible with man kind/Adam , proving to me that even Moses was not allowed into the promised land [ Body of Christ Till the LORD COME AND OPENED HEAVEN , opened the seals to fulfill all things and did not proceed those whom had fallen asleep ,,,
These are just my thoughts about it . call it vain imaginations if you want to , but trusting in Him and only Him is the best thing that has ever happened to many of us ever ... my doubting Him days were many , God has proven over and over HE IS MORE REAL that anything I could ever taste of touch or feel in this world and has proven without Him I can do nothing ! ..I KNOW GOD IS ALWAYS GOOD ...
A fire is burning in hearts Luke 24
Jesus Opens the Scriptures...31Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Jesus—and He disappeared from their sight.
32They asked one another, "
Were not our hearts burning within us as He spoke with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?" 33And they got up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem. There they found the eleven and those with them,
gathered together...I believe it is LOVE radiating from the Holy Spirit that burns and connects us to HIM , removing the dross , the worthless crud , those things that were never meant to remain in the first place , but perish with the using .
Quote from: marie glen on September 01, 2017, 02:12:37 AM
concerning a split atom kind of lake/sea/flood (result of man's own doings?) :ty:
Several good posts in this thread today!
That's one of the things marie that has been lodged in my mind though about the different theories as to the LOF. Including things like "the Holy Spirit was prepared for the devil and his angels? :Chinscratch: It was PREPARED FOR the devil and his angels. If it's of man's doing, would that fit the definition of
prepared for? Maybe so, as in God directing it, sort of like the scripture in Isaiah about God creating evil (rah), and "if it's done in the streets I have done it" etc...lol, lots of "little" things to think about. :dsunny:
Romans 5: 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
Whatever the Lake of Fire precisely/exactly is, and there's some great views/ insights here...it results in justification of life for all human beings.
Yes Jabcat, that's why I think maybe it's a number of things.. or at least a couple of things.. I'm kind of stuck in an earthy way of thinking which makes me see things in a sense of cause and effect. (Or my own slant on cause and effect?) :laughing7:
I never considered before, the possibility that "prepared for the devil and his angels" could possibly be in the sense of that other verse that says the angels (faithful) are watching and learning.. things being conclusively proven to them also.. :dontknow: :Chinscratch: That the consummation of (culmination?) of history was built in from the beginning/foundation. That to prove the futility of Godlessness/life w/o God the full course is being allowed to run its course. It's the way I think.. Lots of folks think of Armageddon,etc as punishment and God's anger, like He throws bolts from heaven.. Planet X.. whatnot.. and throws people into a fiery lake.
That's not to say the devil and his angels won't also be in the lake of fire, besides watching it unfold, after all, they're the ones who got the whole ball rolling as to humans living through such frightening and horrific fire. War. How, is, it possible? But, alas, surely it is part of the potential wrapped up in a world not in His perfect will & in close loving union with Him.
Even though I think the potential is fully possible.. that we would"perish".. that the cowardly, etc would have part in the LOF, I really do believe judgment day will be an age (of roughy 500 years) which will be a 'day' of atonement, and that what it takes to be written in the lamb's book of life is to believe (and cleave/follow). And so after an age of judgment (and intense review?) and experiencing being resurrected, I can't think there will be many, if any still not believing and fully reconciled. (And if they have been conscious since their death and during the millennium.. all the longer for their heart to bend the knee..) Of course, I could be way off base!
Rose I love your analogy of one stone not upon another within us and in our building of a life!! How very very true!! :thumbsup:
Quote from: darryl on September 01, 2017, 06:06:59 AM
Romans 5: 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
Whatever the Lake of Fire precisely/exactly is, and there's some great views/ insights here...it results in justification of life for all human beings.
Amen!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
"Prepared for the devil and his angels"
"Know ye not that you shall judge angels?"
"so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places."
"but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory"
"When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him."
I think the lake of fire is composed of a great cloud of witnesses surrounding the throne of God. Testimonies of grace consuming the darkness of self righteousness and sin. :o)
P.S- maybe that's it.. "prepared for the devil and his angels".. all this time they've had to repent, to change their mind.. if they could "leave their first place"... :dontknow:
So more stringent treatment (smelting, purifying) of them is required., but it's the potential that humans, after both the millennium age and judgment 'day', can find portion there (aionian, agelong).. but it is intended for the devil and his angels..
The split atom may have absolutely nothing to do with the LOF, but still be of Armageddon.. and the rebellious may gather there..? Or be gathered there for the final battle which in essence will be against Yahweh and the Lord(?)
I was just thinking tho, how it says "the elements will melt with a fervent heat" and nearby is the verse about a new heavens and new earth wherein righteousness/& rightness will dwell".. i never stopped to think what has happened to the old heavens and earth.. is it going to melt with a fervent heat? We know this ("all" things made new, God will now tabernacle with mankind upon earth) follows both the millennium and judgment 'day'..
:dontknow: :Peace2:
Quote from: eaglesway on September 01, 2017, 07:36:29 AM
"Prepared for the devil and his angels"
"Know ye not that you shall judge angels?"
"so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places."
"but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory"
"When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him."
I think the lake of fire is composed of a great cloud of witnesses surrounding the throne of God. Testimonies of grace consuming the darkness of self righteousness and sin. :o)
:Chinscratch: Another great idea to ponder! :thumbsup: And suggests to me, it may indeed be more than one thing..
From another perspective, since all who believe have passed from death into life(names written in the book of life), they are in the river of life, the crystal sea. All those who have not believed are still in death(lake of fire, names not written in the book of life, yet). Since God says "I AM" and "Today if you hear my voice" and who "was and is and is to come"- so that the judgment seat of Christ is always active in the now.
In 1 Tim 5 there is another picture of the throne room, and the LOF(perhaps)as it plays out in the now, and as it will be in THE DAY OF FULLFILLMENT ("that his spirit may be saved in The Day" 1 Cor)
"Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning. 21I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality. 1 Tim 5
"he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb" Rev 14:10
For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 COR 5
12Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jjust some thoughts/perspectives to consider. THESE ETERNAL REALITIES ARE SWALLOWING UP IMMORTALITY(Time/Law/Rule/Principality/Power/Death/Sin,Judgment,etc) like a rose unfolding from a tight little bud into a fully opened flower of many petals. So what we see in the word picture(metaphor or type or parable) is true in every age until all has unfolded and that which is imperfect has been swallowed up by that which is perfect.
:thumbsup: :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
yes indeed !!!! the Living works of God as TRUTH , we are to proclaim throughout the whole earth as believers :dsunny:
Just pondering thoughts Yes Eaglesway The Lord /Word of God / Resurrection & Life / Jesus Christ / Lamb of God , are all one and the same
and
IS always [now present in Heaven ] in the sense , "the dead" will hear His Voice and LIVE ....[heaven opened ]
Stephen was a prime example of dying in Christ in Acts as a proof for us all that Jesus is reigning supreme and death is not [ in Adam]
[nor Moses the law and ministration of death ] His mind was changed twice ! from dead to God / Adam to the washing of the Word under the old covenant mindset the rainbow and the cloud Genesis 9:13 fulfilling Gods righteousness ,that is over the mind /heart when the dove / spirit rests on them changed [Matthew 3:16] Jesus is that same witness on the pattern Son ,
no more flooding but fire next time , to the HOLY SPIRIT &FIRE one and I believe He is ALIVE IN CHRIST [ part of the Holy Spirit witness & great cloud of witnesses ] ZION [ City of innumerable angels City of David in the old and in the new Sion
the place the Lord Jesus is preparing a place for you, to come again and receive you unto Himself John 14:3] Sion strongs Sion or Zion = "a parched place" also described as Sunny Heights , I CAN SEE THE Holy Spirit & fire OF GOD being both at the same time .
When you have an element [ say a jewel or metal refined in fire , everything must be removed that was attached to it , leaving only the purest form remaining that a fire cannot destroy left [JESUS Christ being that
touchstone a piece of fine-grained dark schist or
jasper formerly used for testing alloys of gold by observing the color of the mark that they made on it.
, I see Gold as truth , when we buy of Him the gold / truth that has already been tested in that fire :HeartThrob: , they say the core of the earth is molten fire , a liquid magma . I can see the comparing our hearts to the same metaphor when touched by Jesus Christ , this knowledge was revealed and was a mystery for many ages melting the elements with fervent heat ....
a standard or criterion by which something is judged or recognized.the hill on which the higher and more ancient part of Jerusalem was built
the southwestern most and highest of the hills on which the city was built
often used of the entire city of Jerusalem
since Jerusalem because the temple stood there
, was called the dwelling place of God We are ALL considered "dead" in sin / trespass[Adam / mankind under the law [outwardly appearance ] to God , until we begin to proclaim our faith in Him before men now being dead in Christ 1st Resurrection [inwardly , dying daily to this world by the renewing of our minds . Romans 12.. and Jesus declares you before His Father and the angels of heaven Alive in Christ already ...
I DO believe the cross was the turning point [fullness of time ] but more so the Raising up of Jesus Christ [ what a glorious work of the Father !!] Jesus Christ flesh opened the seals and opened heaven as many of the graves/tombs /hearts were opened and appeared into the City of Gods presence ..
Matt 27 The Death of Jesus
...51At that moment
the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.[Paul says that being His flesh in Hebrews 10 ;20 ] which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh.
The earth quaked and the rocks were split.
52The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised.
53After Jesus' resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs,
they entered the holy city and appeared to many people....
GODS GLORY set in the earth [ as the promise of prophecy of Jacobs ladder , Jesus declares
Heaven opened , as ascending and descending on the Son of Man ] John 1
51Then He declared, "Truly, truly, I say to all of you that you will see heaven open and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man."
Genesis 28:12
He had a dream, and behold,
a ladder was set on the earth with its top reaching to heaven; and behold, the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.
GLORY TO GOD for the great things He has done and is doing !!! :dsunny:
Quote
I was just thinking tho, how it says "the elements will melt with a fervent heat" and nearby is the verse about a new heavens and new earth wherein righteousness/& rightness will dwell".. i never stopped to think what has happened to the old heavens and earth.. is it going to melt with a fervent heat? We know this ("all" things made new, God will now tabernacle with mankind upon earth) follows both the millennium and judgment 'day'..
:dontknow: :Peace2:
Quote from: eaglesway on Today at 07:36:29 AM
"Prepared for the devil and his angels"
"Know ye not that you shall judge angels?"
"so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places."
"but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory"
"When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him."
I think the lake of fire is composed of a great cloud of witnesses surrounding the throne of God. Testimonies of grace consuming the darkness of self righteousness and sin. :o)
:Chinscratch: Another great idea to ponder! :thumbsup: And suggests to me, it may indeed be more than one thing..
I see the ascending and descending of angels/messengers of life and death by JESUS CHRIST/WORD OF GOD /LAMB OF GOD being the JUDGE BY saying our own words will justify or condemn us all ....
Matt 12...36But I tell you that men will give an account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned." 38Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You."...
Proverbs 18:21
Death and life are in the power of the tongue, And those who love it will eat its fruit.
Matthew 12:36
But I tell you that men will give an account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.
To me as I am able to understand it now , the DAY of the Lord is judgment day and this day has the 1000 year reign of Christ in it , being that in Adam / 930 years + the 70 years of captivity / Babylon = 1000 years and JESUS CHRIST
IS this fulfilling of the DAY OF THE LORD and the children of the DAY come out of .......
REV 20 describes to me exactly what Jesus done on the Cross the prince of this world is judged ,
the revealing of the Christ in you is the Spirit of prophecy fulfilling of "all things " of Revelation , this is exactly what John described as the DAY OF THE LORD when He was in the Spirit and each one of us have our own order and process
I have thought about this over and over again and asking the Lord to please help me understand what He means in simple terms ,
I do believe it is a different meaning when you are in the Spirit and walking in the Spirit of Life and when you are still in the flesh .
1 COR 15 , Paul describes a beautiful description of how God changes ones life from mortal to an immortal one .
I do see the revealing of Christ Jesus as the book of REVELATION and the opening the seals of the WORD OF GOD though HIS FLESH ... and as the DAY OF THE LORD as John proclaimed in his witness /testimony BY BEING IN THE SPIRIT and not in the flesh but Jesus Christ flesh ..body
SPEAKING in the spirit by Holy Spirit WITNESS AS revelation OF THE WORD OF GOD / LORD JESUS CHRIST DAY
to me as any one of us also when HE opens the seals to the" books ", of the Living and of the dead ..
Rev 1 9 I, John,
your brother and partner in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance that are in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos
because of the word of God and my testimony about Jesus.
10
On the Lord's day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,
11saying, "Write in a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea.
I still believe the same WORD AND SPIRIT applies to us to this very day as well . as a greater work of God we will see as ,we believe in HIS WORD AND SPIRIT OF LIFE working within us ..... :HeartThrob:
Yes, if the "veil" is death(mortality) then, when the veil is parted, we see the "was and is and is to come" of God. But not only do we see it, we get dipped in it(the crystal sea). Whether by being "caught up" as in a vision or an out of body experience, or by death, passing from mortal to immortal life, or by "walking with God" as Enoch.
The "was" and the "will be" are both rooted in the "is" because God "is". He is the "I AM". All things are "From Him and Through Him and To Him". As when the Lord spoke to Ezekiel and said "Come further out"- into the deep or when the Spirit speaks to the two witnesses " Come Up Hither"..... Deep calls unto Deep and we are Seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.
Ez 47...
Then he brought me back to the door of the house; and behold, water was flowing from under the threshold of the house toward the east, for the house faced east. And the water was flowing down from under, from the right side of the house, from south of the altar. 2 He brought me out by way of the north gate and led me around on the outside to the outer gate by way of the gate that faces east. And behold, water was trickling from the south side.
3 When the man went out toward the east with a line in his hand, he measured a thousand cubits, and he led me through the water, water reaching the ankles. 4 Again he measured a thousand and led me through the water, water reaching the knees. Again he measured a thousand and led me through the water, water reaching the loins. 5 Again he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not ford, for the water had risen, enough water to swim in, a river that could not be forded.
6 He said to me, "Son of man, have you seen this?" Then he brought me back to the bank of the river. 7 Now when I had returned, behold, on the bank of the river there were very many trees on the one side and on the other. 8 Then he said to me, "These waters go out toward the eastern region and go down into the Arabah; then they go toward the sea, being made to flow into the sea, and the waters of the sea become fresh. 9 It will come about that every living creature which swarms in every place where the river goes, will live. And there will be very many fish, for these waters go there and the others become fresh; so everything will live where the river goes.
10 And it will come about that fishermen will stand beside it; from Engedi to Eneglaim there will be a place for the spreading of nets. Their fish will be according to their kinds, like the fish of the Great Sea, very many. 11 But its swamps and marshes will not become fresh; they will be left for salt. 12 By the river on its bank, on one side and on the other, will grow all kinds of trees for food. Their leaves will not wither and their fruit will not fail. They will bear every month because their water flows from the sanctuary, and their fruit will be for food and their leaves for healing."
In the metaphors and parables of the scripture it is like a code that the Spirit will reveal...
How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked,
Nor stand in the path of sinners,
Nor sit in the seat of scoffers!
2
But his delight is in the law of the Lord,
And in His law he meditates day and night.
3
He will be like a tree firmly planted by streams of water,
Which yields its fruit in its season
And its leaf does not wither;
And in whatever he does, he prospers.
4
The wicked are not so,
But they are like chaff which the wind drives away.
5
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
Nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
6
For the Lord knows the way of the righteous,
But the way of the wicked will perish.
(The way of righteousness is love in the Spirit, the unrighteous way is "chaff- not "gathered" but blown away and burned up (1 Cor 3:10-15) as He thoroughly purges His threshing floor(mortal life is the threshing floor for all).
There you see, the tree of life is a person. Jesus is the tree of life, and we are also trees of life, oaks of righteousness, the planting of the Lord. Our roots are in the river. A kind of "first-fruits of creation"(James 1)
Jesus is the prototype- "That He might bring many sons to glory"- we are the seeds from that first true vine.
"There is a river that makes glad the city of god".
The river will make all the salt water fresh and wherever it flows everything will come to life.
"He that believes in Me out of His innermost being will flow rivers of living water".(John 7)
"Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; 4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever." Revelation 22
So Ezekiel sees the same thing John does thousands of years later. It is the full reality of the DAY FULFILLED. The deeper we get in the river the more we realize that all that is mortal(dead, dying in death) is being swallowed up by life(Behold I am making all things new!)
The picture does not change- because it is the same when you step into the "olam"- either by death or by heavenly vision "in the Spirit on the Lord's Day". It is the Core Seed, the Logos, the beauty of the divine nature expressed and poured out and "making everything fresh wherever it flows" and it will not stop until God is "all in all" and "all are in God" because the Father is gathering all things together in one in Christ and our inheritance as His "fellow laborers" and as "a kind of first-fruits of creation" is to sit with Him upon His throne and participate in the gathering- the harvest.
We get detailed about the "ages/aions" but the details are not so important as we think or God would have given a more detailed and systematic report on them.
He doesnt want us to focus so much on those details/sequences(It is not for you to know the times and seasons.... go, wait in Jerusalem until the Spirit falls upon you)
He wants us to get deeper in the river, speak words of life(leaves for the healing of the nation), bear fruit in season- because it is the "olam"we will awaken into, and at its core, the "olam" "is what it is" and "was and is and is to come"- the glory of God according to the pattern that is always multiplying in kind...
"And there was great grace upon them all and they were all as one heart and soul and there was no need among them and the word multiplied greatly and the Lord added daily to the ecclesia those appointed for deliverance" and what were they delivered into?
The glory of God, the river that runs through the "tohu and bohu" bringing life where there was death and harmony where there was chaos and love where there was hate..... until THE VERY LAST ADVERSARY is subjected- subjected to what?
The love of God, which is His glory overflowing- pressed down, shaken together, running over, exceedingly above and beyond all we could ask or think- our glorious liberty of the children of God. :o)
As we grow and go deeper what becomes overwhelmingly clear is that the how or whens are not as glorious as the what- this beautiful exponential multiplication of love and grace that will sweep all of creation into the current of an unimaginably wonderful river of life.
God IS Love ..... Love/God is the highest authority ..... His kingdom is ruled by love, through love and for love .....
IMO ..... Man in his own understanding places God's law as a higher authority than Love, this is the error of the way of man/flesh
The law belongs to God, but what belongs to God should not be placed in a higher position than God/Love Himself
Amen God IS love and love is going to be the ruling force!
Those who meditate upon and delight in his Word shall be like a strong tree planted by life giving waters. Even in old age their leaf shall not whither. And the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, faithfulness, goodness, meekness, humility, temperance, moderation, self control.. (Sorry all that terribly paraphrased!) ...against such there is no law..
There's the witness in our heart, which tells us UR is true. And ET holds no water.. pun intended. And there's also God's plan and purpose and how He is working it out, which also proves UR!
What a wise God the Heavenly Father is! And one day all will openly know that He has done all things perfectly! And what He is creating is perfect. And only perfect can possibly survive in it for He IS perfection (and the life force). A world (or any one of us) cannot have a foundation of imperfection. Cannot be built of, or its fiber be imperfection. So in a sense He IS law.. natural law. He is a consuming fire. Purity. And He is Life. Purity consumes and does away with impurity, chaff.
If we abide in Him, and, in His Word, we are like a strong tree.. otherwise/any other way, we have more the property of dust blown in the wind.. Until our time to be gathered to Him.. Each one in their own time (order).
How wonderful that His law is love. A natural, fiber of life law/principle. He is life and love and He is the water of life. And purity a consuming spark which is life.
Don't you wish now we could go about as with a pitcher and pour Him out unto others? I know we do give Him away but usually slow motion..? But one day not so! But we shall be able to freely give Him away.. And what joyful gathering that shall be!
:thumbsup:
ET holds no water :rolllol:
:HeartThrob: :thumbsup:
Love is the answer, to every question ever asked .
Wisdom is justified of her children , born from above , where the Voice of many waters flows healing peace .
Psalms 29 The Voice of the LORD in the Storm.
A Psalm of David.
1Ascribe to the LORD, O sons of the mighty,
Ascribe to the LORD glory and strength.
2Ascribe to the LORD the glory due to His name;
Worship the LORD in holy array.
3The voice of the LORD is upon the waters;
The God of glory thunders,
The LORD is over many waters.
4The voice of the LORD is powerful,
The voice of the LORD is majestic.
5The voice of the LORD breaks the cedars;
Yes, the LORD breaks in pieces the cedars of Lebanon.
6He makes Lebanon skip like a calf,
And Sirion like a young wild ox.
7The voice of the LORD hews out flames of fire.
8The voice of the LORD shakes the wilderness;
The LORD shakes the wilderness of Kadesh.
9The voice of the LORD makes the deer to calve
And strips the forests bare;
And in His temple everything says, "Glory!"
10The LORD sat as King at the flood;
Yes, the LORD sits as King forever.
11The LORD will give strength to His people;
The LORD will bless His people with peace.
...AMEN! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Amen!!
God demonstrated His love for us while we were sinners.
Love grows as we walk.
Eph 3;17-21
" Immeasurably more than we ask or imagine..."
:dsunny: :cloud9:
the lake of fire isnt purgatory...i believe its the actual Holy Fire of God taking the unbelievers thru so much but in end they WILL REPENT N REACH OUT TO JESUS IN FAITH...and their Spirit and watever of their soul is of some good, WILL be saved...theres TOO MANY Scriptures in the Bible STATING ALL WILL be saved, ultimately...God PLANNED all THIS FROM THE BEGINNING...He IS IN CONTROL AND HE will PERFORM ALL HIS GOOD PLEASURE WHICH IS TO save all
:thumbsup:
Part of the return says all the seas will be become like the blood of a dead-man when the return happens.That is a solid rather than a liquid so when the Church is wandering around they are walking on top of it. The only other flesh alive in the 1,000 years are the fish in the (former) Dead Sea as it is made into a body of fresh water. (Ezekiel:47)
In short if any were alive when the fire sends Satan to the fiery lake they would also go so rather than that happen they die at the start and then god resurrects them as the water exits New Jerusalem and wat6ers the 'dust' and their lives are made healthy like the water and the fish only on a much bigger scale.