Gehenna

[Doug]

Hi Tim,

You may also find this article interesting.

Gehenna in J.A. Alexander's Matthew Commentary

http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/JAA-gehenna.html

Cheers, Doug

[dboutwell]

Tim ,

Obviously, there are many thought on what Gehenna is but there is one scripture passage in the BIble that seems fairly plain, if I am interpreting it correctly, that it will be, or is, or was (LOL) a temporary place/condition.

Matthew 23:

23."Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
24.You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25."Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
26.Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27."Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
28.In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29."Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous.
30.And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
31.So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
32.Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
33."You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
34.Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
35.And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36.I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
37."O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
38.Look, your house is left to you desolate.
39.For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.

Even though Jesus sentences them to Hell, He says they will see Him when they say "Blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord"  i must admit, I don't see this reasoning used much, so I do wonder if I am looking at it incorrectly...of course the ET'ers have different explanations. It does seem to say that Gehenna will last until those condemned to Hell repent...which is right in line with brimstone being for testing, purification..etc. That also agrees with Paul's teaching that every knee will bow and every tounge will confess....and God commands ALL to come to repentance. And, Jesus' teaching that He will draw all to Himself. And..in Adam all die and in Christ all live.

What do you think?

Debbie

[sven]

36.I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

thats interesting, it's judgment of Gehenna btw. As far as I know many Jews have been killed and were possibly burned in Gehenna (the valley of Hinnom) in the war in 70 AD

[WhiteWings]

Even though Jesus sentences them to Hell, He says they will see Him when they say "Blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord"  i must admit, I don't see this reasoning used much, so I do wonder if I am looking at it incorrectly...of course the ET'ers have different explanations. It does seem to say that Gehenna will last until those condemned to Hell repent...

I think ones personal hell/gehenna ends at this point:
Romans 14:11 for it is written: Living am I, the Lord is saying, For to Me shall bow every knee, And every tongue shall be acclaiming God!

When you kneel to God (inwardly) you are clean and ready to exit Gehenna. That's my view on it anyway.

of course the ET'ers have different explanations

Surely they have. God will break their legs/knees by brute force. Then they confess in agony. God has some fun with laughs at them and kicks 'm into hell.
For ETs the bowing of knees is just before Hell (White Throne). For me (but what do I know...) it's your exit ticked for hell.

[Doug]

Matthew 23:
...
33."You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
34.Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
35.And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36.I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

The "blood" of all the righteous men slain since the murder of Abel refers to the guilt or sin of those who were responsible for these crimes, all of which was laid upon Jesus, when he was on the cross; as John said, he was "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." [John 1:29]

Since Jesus was part of the generation he was referring to, (his own), it was that generation, from which the blood of all the righteous men slain from the foundation of the world, was required. And, he took on himself the blood (i.e., the sins of the ones who were guilty of murdering them) of all those saints who have been slain since his death, as well.

Thus, I suggest, Jesus spoke of himself, when he referred to "this generation." He did not mean the Jews he was speaking to would have to suffer for the sins of their ancestors, who lived centuries before! (Would that be fair?) However, some have misunderstood his words, as implying that. Jesus did not even say "Jews" but "this generation."

The above also explains what he meant in Luke 21:32, when he referred to "this generation."

Luke 21:31-33
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Since Jesus rose from the dead, his generation still remains today. It is a unique generation! And just as his words will remain forever, his generation will remain, even after heaven and earth have passed away, as He is part of that generation.

Doug

[Tim B]

Hey Dboutwell! That's sounds like pretty good reasoning to me! I've heard other opinions on the last verse too, but yours seems more consistant right off the bat.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: His generation is that of Spirit; all that are birthed of the Spirit, are of the generation that will declare (means to show openly) Him before the Father. Blessings....

[Molly]

The word "generation" can mean an age, or it can be a kind--as in each gives birth to its own kind, as used in biology.

Jesus spanned generations as the last Adam and the firstborn of many brothers, giving rise to a new generation out of the old, a new creation.  He is our kinsman redeemer, the new fulfilling the old..



[this] "generation"

From
G1085
γένος
genos
ghen'-os
From G1096; "kin" (abstractly or concretely, literally or figuratively, individually or collectively): - born, country (-man), diversity, generation, kind (-red), nation, offspring, stock.


Matthew 13:52
Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

[Tim B]

Even though Jesus sentences them to Hell, He says they will see Him when they say "Blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord"  i must admit, I don't see this reasoning used much, so I do wonder if I am looking at it incorrectly...of course the ET'ers have different explanations. It does seem to say that Gehenna will last until those condemned to Hell repent...

I think ones personal hell/gehenna ends at this point:
Romans 14:11 for it is written: Living am I, the Lord is saying, For to Me shall bow every knee, And every tongue shall be acclaiming God!

When you kneel to God (inwardly) you are clean and ready to exit Gehenna. That's my view on it anyway.

of course the ET'ers have different explanations

Surely they have. God will break their legs/knees by brute force. Then they confess in agony. God has some fun with laughs at them and kicks 'm into hell.
For ETs the bowing of knees is just before Hell (White Throne). For me (but what do I know...) it's your exit ticked for hell.

They wouldn't be swearing allegiance to God if he was just going to judge them and then throw them in Hell. I don't know of anybody that would do that!

[WhiteWings]

They wouldn't be swearing allegiance to God if he was just going to judge them and then throw them in Hell. I don't know of anybody that would do that!

I don't agree with that Tim.
I think almost all will grab every chance, no matter how tiny, to make God change His mind.
Most people get extremely motivated to bow when standing on the edge of a lava pit.

[Tim B]

They wouldn't be swearing allegiance to God if he was just going to judge them and then throw them in Hell. I don't know of anybody that would do that!

I don't agree with that Tim.
I think almost all will grab every chance, no matter how tiny, to make God change His mind.
Most people get extremely motivated to bow when standing on the edge of a lava pit.

Oh, well, I believe you misunderstood my point. I mean to say this: if they knew that swearing allegiance would do nothing to "save" them, then I doubt that anybody that was not going to be saved would swear allegiance to God, at least, if they were essentially allowed to maintain their normal willingness to rebel against God.

That is, even more clearly: if one knew that one would not be saved by swearing allegiance to God, then one probably wouldn't swear allegiance.

Thus, I was suggesting, that if one DOES swear allegiance it's because one willfully wishes to swear and join allegiance with God.

And going even further with this thought: therefore, if ALL willingly bow their knee and swear allegiance to Christ, then all will be on God's side and all will be saved and find their life in Christ.

Hopefully that makes more sense.  :bigGrin:

[WhiteWings]

That is, even more clearly: if one knew that one would not be saved by swearing allegiance to God, then one probably wouldn't swear allegiance.

I think we have to agree to disagree. When standing on the edge of a lava pit self preservation takes over from rebelion.
People will grab every chance to stay out of that pit. Even if that chance is in reality 0%.

Thus, I was suggesting, that if one DOES swear allegiance it's because one willfully wishes to swear and join allegiance with God.

The verses (I know of) are not super clear on the honesty of the allegiance. But the over tone is real allegiance; the way I read them.

And going even further with this thought: therefore, if ALL willingly bow their knee and swear allegiance to Christ, then all will be on God's side and all will be saved and find their life in Christ.

But still I feel most will end up in Gehenna and the bowing takes place in/after Gehenna.
So before that there may be false allegiance.
A very important factor is how fast the judgements of God are. If the judging and casting into the fire only takes a blink of an eye we simply don't have time to kneel.

[Tim B]

That is, even more clearly: if one knew that one would not be saved by swearing allegiance to God, then one probably wouldn't swear allegiance.

I think we have to agree to disagree. When standing on the edge of a lava pit self preservation takes over from rebelion.
People will grab every chance to stay out of that pit. Even if that chance is in reality 0%.

I agree you're right to say that if any man thought he could avoid a fiery torment, one would do so even if it meant faking allegiance. I meant to say, however, that if a man understood that he had no chance of avoiding eternal torment in Hell, that he probably wouldn't be swearing allegiance (unless he felt compelled to because of God's glory or something lol). So I think we're both right actually, we just had different thoughts in our head as to the circumstances.

The verses (I know of) are not super clear on the honesty of the allegiance. But the over tone is real allegiance; the way I read them.

I hope it's real allegiance, which seems to be what Isaiah suggests, especially considering the peoples' swearing allegiance is followed by this verse: "24 Only in the Lord shall one say, I have righteousness (salvation and victory) and strength [to achieve]. To Him shall all come who were incensed against Him, and they shall be ashamed." I might be wrong, but it almost, if not directly states, that those who swear allegiance will be the ones who are speaking of having their righteousness and strength in the Lord. Of course, it also says they'll be ashamed, but I think that's just because people will be sorry for their former hatred of the Lord.

And going even further with this thought: therefore, if ALL willingly bow their knee and swear allegiance to Christ, then all will be on God's side and all will be saved and find their life in Christ.

But still I feel most will end up in Gehenna and the bowing takes place in/after Gehenna.
So before that there may be false allegiance.
A very important factor is how fast the judgements of God are. If the judging and casting into the fire only takes a blink of an eye we simply don't have time to kneel.
[/quote]

The verse I have quoted in my signature seems to support the idea of bowing (and maybe swearing allegiance) comes after judgement, because it seems to suggest, to me anyway, that those bowing and swearing allegiance are those that God calls to be saved (aka everybody).

[WhiteWings]

And going even further with this thought: therefore, if ALL willingly bow their knee and swear allegiance to Christ, then all will be on God's side and all will be saved and find their life in Christ.

But still I feel most will end up in Gehenna and the bowing takes place in/after Gehenna.
So before that there may be false allegiance.
A very important factor is how fast the judgements of God are. If the judging and casting into the fire only takes a blink of an eye we simply don't have time to kneel.

The verse I have quoted in my signature seems to support the idea of bowing (and maybe swearing allegiance) comes after judgement, because it seems to suggest, to me anyway, that those bowing and swearing allegiance are those that God calls to be saved (aka everybody).

But what exactly is judgement? Is it the verdict of the judge? Or is it the punishment (Gehenna) itself.

Let's look at your signature.
Isaiah 45:22-25

22 Look to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.
=> Doesn't say when people "Look to Me"

23 I have sworn by Myself, the word is gone out of My mouth in righteousness and shall not return, that unto Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear [allegiance].
=> "Shall" hasn't a time limit. Can be within a second or after a trillion years.

24 Only in the Lord shall one say, I have righteousness (salvation and victory) and strength [to achieve]. To Him shall all come who were incensed against Him, and they shall be ashamed.
=> Again shall. See above.
=> Plus no mention if it is before, during, after the judgement.

25 In the Lord shall all the offspring of Israel be justified (enjoy righteousness, salvation, and victory) and shall glory.
=> No argument about the final victory of God. But again no time limitation.

So I agree all eventually will bow with a honest heart.
But for me that doesn't exclude people will bow with ill intentions before that. Neither it tells me when the bowing happens.
But using my own logic the majority bows in honesty after or during their part in LoF. Why?
Simply because if you assume that those who bow are saved then most will not bow. Most are on the wide road.

Note about saved: When I write saved I don't mean some/many are unsaved or never will be saved as in ET.
We are saved from things like ET stuff or being wiped out of existance.
So IMO we are saved from torture but not from a good (time/pain limited) spanking (...stripes...)
So when I write unsaved I acutally mean those in for a good spanking.

[rosered]

WW wrote .

But what exactly is judgement? Is it the verdict of the judge? Or is it the punishment (Gehenna) itself.

  That is a great point WW !
  you know I always thought of  judgment as opinion with a few facts or lies even  :sigh: making one act uopn  them opinions  in mankind
  Not God though He knows the very thoughts and intent of the heart in every man
  this makes me believe whole heartedly   the verse Jesus spoke as you judge so shall you be judged , this giving a chance for  the law to work  in wrath   
or mercy as one judges and gives his opinion /voice


Strong's G2920 - krisis κρίσις
Transliteration
krisis
Pronunciation

krē'-sēs (Key)

Part of Speech
feminine noun

Root Word (Etymology)

perhaps a primitive word

TDNT Reference
3:941,469
Vines
View Entry


Outline of Biblical Usage 1) a separating, sundering, separation

a) a trial, contest

2) selection

3) judgment

a) opinion or decision given concerning anything

1) esp. concerning justice and injustice, right or wrong

b) sentence of condemnation, damnatory judgment, condemnation and punishment

4) the college of judges (a tribunal of seven men in the several cities of Palestine; as distinguished from the Sanhedrin, which had its seat at Jerusalem)

5) right, justice


now would that make one s judgment /opinion /voice  a  living  punnishment   
well to me it sure could  :icon_flower:

[Beloved Servant]

Definition A is interesting and speaks to a living punishment or participation in the contest to run the race as if to win the prize and overcome as I have overcome with the divine gift of the Spirit giving us the wisdom, knowledge and understanding of how to do so with faith hope and love.

[rosered]

Definition A is interesting and speaks to a living punishment or participation in the contest to run the race as if to win the prize and overcome as I have overcome with the divine gift of the Spirit giving us the wisdom, knowledge and understanding of how to do so with faith hope and love.

Hi Beloved  :icon_flower:   it does remind me of Pauls words as well ! :HeartThrob:
   

[WhiteWings]

http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/ScholasticArticles/FunkandWagnallsEncyclopedia.htm

Early Christian writers used the term hell to designate (1) the limbo of
infants, where the unbaptized enjoy a natural bliss but are denied the
supernatural bliss of the vision of God; (2) the limbo of the fathers, in
which the souls of the just who died before the advent of Christ await their
redemption, and which is mentioned in the Apostles' Creed, "He [Christ]
descended into hell"; (3) a place of purgation from minor offenses leading
inevitably to heaven (see PURGATORY); and (4) the place of punishment of
Satan and the other fallen angels and of all mortals who die unrepentant of
serious sin.

Note the word "Bliss" and not "Blister"
Need I say more....?