Does anybody have any really good articles on what was thought of Gehenna in Jesus' day? My friend was trying to suggest that Gehenna was metaphorical for Hell. I've heard it was simply thought to be a sort of "sign" for a terrible judgement, but I've also heard that certain Jews believed that after death certain people were tormented through purification in Gehenna for up to 12-months (although some Jews thought certain people were tormented for eternity rather than, assumably, purified). (I gathered this from bible-truths.com in which Ray made some comments on some Jewish beliefs.)
However, considering that Gehenna nor Sheol were thought of as an eternal place of torment in the OT, it seems reasonable that any Jews that thought of Gehenna as a place which existed after death must have been of pagan origin.
Any good articles or points on Gehenna would be appreciated! Thanks guys!
1. Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 6
How precise the type! Gehenna was the city dump of ... burned and consumed. The antitypical Gehenna to which our Lord alluded ... righteousness" (Mal. 3:1-3). Gehenna stands as a type of
www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW6.htm
2. Kindgdom Bible Studies Looking for His Appearing Part 30
And note, too, the poor fellow is not cast into hellfire, hades, sheol, gehenna, the pit, or eternal damnation. "Outer darkness," is the word. Some may ask, What is the outer
www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Looking/Looking30.htm
3. Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series
Gehenna comprising the lower, the region of the damned with its flames and torments; the upper being Paradise, the intermediate place of bliss and rest into which, at the time of
www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Revelation/rev36.htm
Alright (looking at the 3rd link), so if the Jews, at least in the time of Jesus, believed Gehenna to be a place of torments, what in the world did Jesus mean by using the term??? It obviously sounds like the Jews borrowed lame pagan myths, but what did Jesus mean then? He couldn't have meant the same thing they did, less he teach eternal torments, which the idea of, more and more in my mind, is shaping itself into mere craziness.
Hi Tim,
just gave you some links.
You can always write to Preston.
He's very nice.
as far as I know:
Gehenna does not appear in the apocrypha of the Septuagint (Sirach, Wisdom, Maccabees etc.), but in Joshua 18:16 as Greek transcription gaienna (gaienna) of Hebrew gehenom (or something like that), the valley of Hinnom as we all know.
it does neither appear in the 1. book of Enoch (though sometimes claimed, only "accursed valley there"), nor at Flavius Josephus and Philo as far as I know - which is remarkable, possibly they were unaware of this term, both were contemporary with Christ.
it seems to appear in the apocryphal 4th book of Esdras, but this book seems to be of later date, this book might teach, or at least imply eventual annihilation (didn't examined it) but rather everlasting torment, it's no book nice to read, worse than the book of Enoch.
it is said to appear in the apocryphal apocalypse of Baruch, I've never read this book and do not know which date it has, also about this book is said, that it implies final annihilation
it is also said to appear in the Sybilline oracles, this book teaches, that those in Gehenna will be restored after the righteous prayed for them.
the Talmud and other Jewish sources might be of later date, there are many opinions in the Talmud.
it seems Clemens of Alexandria, Origen and Justin the Martyr, had been the first christians writers who used the term, the first two were universalists, Justin believed in annihilation.
I also wondered about this subject, the scholars seem to vary in their opinions, I've never read of any Jewish source which is undisputable dated prior to Christ, in which Gehenna appears as place that fit to modern hell.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/mercyandjudgment/mercy_and_judgment_ch8.html
contains some historical facts as well:
http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/immortality_resurrection/6.htm
I wonder if the term "Gehenna" is found in the Qumran writings
I was thinking about something. Even if the Jews thought that Gehenna was in some way or another a place of ET, which is NOWHERE taught in the OT, then why should it be assumed that Jesus meant ET in the New Testament? I don't think it follows logically. Especially when we consider that the idea of ET seems to be borrowed from pagans, Jesus spoke of "age-lasting correction" rather than ET, and said to beware of the teachings of the Pharisees (which seemed to, at least in some instances, teach ET).
Thanks for all the info everybody, btw!
Hi Tim,
IMO ETs do not reject the teachings of Jesus.
They are just misled by "fire" and "everlasting" translations.
So the really think Jesus said 'tormented forever"
But how that big error crept in? Bad translation skills? A way to get the Gospel more quickly accepted by pagans? Political reasons?
I have my idea's but the problem is that evidence fades during history.
So we can only know for sure why the current generation of ETs believe what they believe. I think they are wrong. But not on purpose.
out of all the geographical places in the bible why is gehenna translated ""hell"" :mshock:
The jews new exactly what Yeshua ment when he talked about the judgment of gehenna.
it goes back to what the fathers did in that valley, sacrificing the children in fire to Molech.
dispicable, yet churchanity says God is just to do far worse, its the delusion.
chuckt
Quote from: chuckt on June 19, 2009, 02:13:12 PM
out of all the geographical places in the bible why is gehenna translated ""hell"" :mshock:
The jews new exactly what Yeshua ment when he talked about the judgment of gehenna.
it goes back to what the fathers did in that valley, sacrificing the children in fire to Molech.
dispicable, yet churchanity says God is just to do far worse, its the delusion.
chuckt
Hi Chuck , :icon_flower: I agree ,
Gehenna judgment , the castaway Paul speaks of maybe ?
adokimos 96 greek castaway/
1) not standing the test, not approved
a) properly used of metals and coins
2) that which does not prove itself such as it ought
a) unfit for, unproved, spurious, reprobate I love these verses here , to me having Life in the Spirit and alive to God , means have a purpose , and us being natural parents , knowing that role of being a good parent does not come easy and without sacrifices of self to boot !
same servitude in Christ Jesus we are to represent and demonstrate this same power /authority in Jesus Christ within ourselves , being made ready by the the Lords own Hand and prepared for this , to me it is being a willing vessel cleaned out and ready ,fit for the masters use ........ to fulfil that righteouesness in the Law of great grace and sure mercy towards sinners , as we once were or should i say personally still being emptied out :mblush:
wel what Paul says here helps me alot , knowing God judges me justly and perfectly and deservingly ..... mercifully even , shows me how much love the Lord really has towards us , I fail the Lord never does , and I can sure thank and praise Him for this much :HeartThrob:
What is my reward then? [Verily] that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that
I abuse not my power in the gospel.
1Cr 9:19 For though I be free from all [men], yet
have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
1Cr 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that
I might gain them that are under the law;
1Cr 9:21 To them that are
without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but
under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. 1Cr 9:22 To
the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all [men], that I might by all means save some. 1Cr 9:23 And
this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with [you].
1Cr 9:24 Know ye
not that they which run in a race run all, but
one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Cr 9:25 And
every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they [do it] to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 1Cr 9:26 I therefore
so run, not as uncertainly;
so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Cr 9:27 But
I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means,
when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
the Lord sure does prune the extra junk off the tree , making the root stronger and bears good filling fruit
make the tree good and the fruit good or make it corrupt :mshock: this verse always makes me wonder how much responsibility we do have to take on ourselves with the Lord Spirit and help of course
and why Paul showed such Godly fear / wisdom , knowing that he could still be a castaway , even after preaching this gospel/good news to others and he would be judged still unfit by his labouring in love and example in this lifes work ?
hummmmmmmmm :mshock:
Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by [his] fruit.
Quote from: Tim B on June 19, 2009, 05:59:30 AM
I was thinking about something. Even if the Jews thought that Gehenna was in some way or another a place of ET, which is NOWHERE taught in the OT, then why should it be assumed that Jesus meant ET in the New Testament? I don't think it follows logically. Especially when we consider that the idea of ET seems to be borrowed from pagans, Jesus spoke of "age-lasting correction" rather than ET, and said to beware of the teachings of the Pharisees (which seemed to, at least in some instances, teach ET).
Thanks for all the info everybody, btw!
Hi Tim,
Some (ETers) would say that Gehenna had in fact come to mean a place of eternal torment. This probably happened by the intertestamental period (the period between the OT and the NT). You can check different history books/articles and see it may indeed be a possibility. Essentially, Gehenna was slang for eternal hell. But Gehenna also had the meaning of the physical location where things were burned up.
You are correct - nothing in the bible verifies that "Gehenna" has the meaning of this slang term. In most cases it would have the meaning of a place of judgment, a place of torment, a place where children were burned (to Molech) etc - all references to the physical place as a symbol.
The "eternal" part of gehenna is only added in from outside biblical sources.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 19, 2009, 09:05:03 AM
Hi Tim,
IMO ETs do not reject the teachings of Jesus.
They are just misled by "fire" and "everlasting" translations.
So the really think Jesus said 'tormented forever"
But how that big error crept in? Bad translation skills? A way to get the Gospel more quickly accepted by pagans? Political reasons?
I have my idea's but the problem is that evidence fades during history.
So we can only know for sure why the current generation of ETs believe what they believe. I think they are wrong. But not on purpose.
Hi WW,
Most ETers don't know about the mistranslations, so when confronted with a verse that says "eternal damnation", its pretty hard to disbelieve hell.
The problems start when you show them that "eternal" doesn't really mean "eternal". Either they cling to their traditions, or God opens their eyes.
How the error crept in? Political control. The dark ages. Put fear in the population so they don't overrun the elite (the church and royalty at that time). Its all the same stuff that still happens today (just in a different way - economic crisis, global warming, terrorists, blah blah blah), so certain people can maintain their status and power.
Legoman
Quote from: legoman on June 19, 2009, 05:37:50 PM
Quote from: Tim B on June 19, 2009, 05:59:30 AM
I was thinking about something. Even if the Jews thought that Gehenna was in some way or another a place of ET, which is NOWHERE taught in the OT, then why should it be assumed that Jesus meant ET in the New Testament? I don't think it follows logically. Especially when we consider that the idea of ET seems to be borrowed from pagans, Jesus spoke of "age-lasting correction" rather than ET, and said to beware of the teachings of the Pharisees (which seemed to, at least in some instances, teach ET).
Thanks for all the info everybody, btw!
Hi Tim,
Some (ETers) would say that Gehenna had in fact come to mean a place of eternal torment. This probably happened by the intertestamental period (the period between the OT and the NT). You can check different history books/articles and see it may indeed be a possibility. Essentially, Gehenna was slang for eternal hell. But Gehenna also had the meaning of the physical location where things were burned up.
You are correct - nothing in the bible verifies that "Gehenna" has the meaning of this slang term. In most cases it would have the meaning of a place of judgment, a place of torment, a place where children were burned (to Molech) etc - all references to the physical place as a symbol.
The "eternal" part of gehenna is only added in from outside biblical sources.
this is a good place to show them how they mix scripture.
they use hades as the place of torment with the richman, there is no reason to mix gehenna and hades to prove ""hell""
using these verses you can prove not only is the richman and laz a parable, but also that Jesus didnt go to paradise THAT DAY.
chuckt
QuoteSome (ETers) would say that Gehenna had in fact come to mean a place of eternal torment. This probably happened by the intertestamental period (the period between the OT and the NT). You can check different history books/articles and see it may indeed be a possibility. Essentially, Gehenna was slang for eternal hell. But Gehenna also had the meaning of the physical location where things were burned up.
are there any sources which writings?
1 Enoch, 1-4th Maccabees and the apocrypha found in the LXX don't have gehenna as far as I know, other writings might be of later date, Flavius Josephus and Philo of Alexandria didn't use that term either as far as I know.
many Jewish sources say gehenna lasts 12 months only, but they might me of later date as well.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 19, 2009, 09:05:03 AM
A way to get the Gospel more quickly accepted by pagans? Political reasons?
Read this article, that Tim was pointed to in another thread:
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EarlyChristianView.html
In it they talk about a "Doctrine of Reserve". Essentially the more "advanced truths" (ie. universal salvation), were only
reserved for those believers who were mature in the faith. I guess they couldn't trust new believers to not sin if they knew everyone would be saved anyway.
Its kind of astonishing. So the church leaders found it acceptable to hide the real truth, for the purpose of converting people to Christ. But eventually the "Docrtine of Reserve" was forgotten, and more sinister men took control of the political/religious system, and found FEAR is a good control mechanism.
There must be more articles on this "Doctrine of Reserve" somewhere.
Quote from: sven on June 19, 2009, 06:07:56 PM
QuoteSome (ETers) would say that Gehenna had in fact come to mean a place of eternal torment. This probably happened by the intertestamental period (the period between the OT and the NT). You can check different history books/articles and see it may indeed be a possibility. Essentially, Gehenna was slang for eternal hell. But Gehenna also had the meaning of the physical location where things were burned up.
are there any sources which writings?
1 Enoch, 1-4th Maccabees and the apocrypha found in the LXX don't have gehenna as far as I know, other writings might be of later date, Flavius Josephus and Philo of Alexandria didn't use that term either as far as I know.
many Jewish sources say gehenna lasts 12 months only, but they might me of later date as well.
I'm not too sure Sven. This is what ETers have told me though (I realize that is not a very trusted source). But I think some documents here on tentmaker might cover this? Anyone know?
Quote from: legoman on June 19, 2009, 06:12:34 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 19, 2009, 09:05:03 AM
A way to get the Gospel more quickly accepted by pagans? Political reasons?
Its kind of astonishing. So the church leaders found it acceptable to hide the real truth, for the purpose of converting people to Christ. But eventually the "Docrtine of Reserve" was forgotten, and more sinister men took control of the political/religious system, and found FEAR is a good control mechanism.
Can't say I'm suprised by it.
I've read an article that gives an other reason why paganism slipped in. Perhaps (a little related) to the doctrine or reserve.
The aim was to convert as many as quickly as possible to Christianity. People get converted more easily when the differences are not to big. Or if they find overlaps in the old and new religion. For example the Bible speaks about fire. Pagan religions speak about fire too. Purposely the churchleaders didn't explain the difference. They just withheld a bit of truth.
as I said the scholars seem to disagree about Gehenna, please correct me, if me I'm wrong, but as far as I know
Gehenna is not found:
in the LXX*
the writings of Josephus and Philo, both contemporary to Christ
1 Enoch (though accursed valley there, Chapter 27 I think)
Gehenna is found in:
4 Ezra (sometimes called 2nd Ezra/Esdras) (might have a later date)
the Targumim (might have a later date, and Gehenna there probably a place of annihilation)
the Talmud (most probably of later date, Rabbi Akiva says Gehenna is 12 months at least for Jewish sinners)
the Sybilline oracles (teaches universalism, maybe later date)
apocryphal apocalypses of Baruch (I know nothing about this books)
the later books of Enoch (but of later date)
maybe an apocryphal apocalypse/gospel of Peter (is said to teach universalism in some versions)
the writings of
Clemens of Alexandria (an universalist)
Origen (an universalist)
Justin the Martyr (said to have been an annihilationist)
I'm very interested, if it was known among the Qumran sect, any sources?
* Gaienna appears in Joshua 18:16 in the Septuagint, meaning the literal valley of Hinnom there
Quote from: legoman on June 19, 2009, 05:37:50 PM
Quote from: Tim B on June 19, 2009, 05:59:30 AM
I was thinking about something. Even if the Jews thought that Gehenna was in some way or another a place of ET, which is NOWHERE taught in the OT, then why should it be assumed that Jesus meant ET in the New Testament? I don't think it follows logically. Especially when we consider that the idea of ET seems to be borrowed from pagans, Jesus spoke of "age-lasting correction" rather than ET, and said to beware of the teachings of the Pharisees (which seemed to, at least in some instances, teach ET).
Thanks for all the info everybody, btw!
Hi Tim,
Some (ETers) would say that Gehenna had in fact come to mean a place of eternal torment. This probably happened by the intertestamental period (the period between the OT and the NT). You can check different history books/articles and see it may indeed be a possibility. Essentially, Gehenna was slang for eternal hell. But Gehenna also had the meaning of the physical location where things were burned up.
You are correct - nothing in the bible verifies that "Gehenna" has the meaning of this slang term. In most cases it would have the meaning of a place of judgment, a place of torment, a place where children were burned (to Molech) etc - all references to the physical place as a symbol.
The "eternal" part of gehenna is only added in from outside biblical sources.
So it's possible, and perhaps, quite reasonable, based on Jesus words to "beware of the teachings of the Pharisees," to assume that when Jesus spoke of Gehenna he simply meant the dump outside of Jerusalem (even if it was meant metaphorically as a judgement, but not eternal torment)? Would it also be reasonable to assume that Jesus could have used the word Gehenna without confusing the Jews into assuming he meant eternal torment? I mean, I suppose it doesn't necessarily matter what the Jews thought Jesus meant, as most of the time they (or at least the Pharisees) seemed quite confused by his teachings anyway, but I feel it is important for me to come to a solid conclusion on just what Jesus meant. Otherwise it becomes a bit more difficult to defend the idea that Jesus did not support ET. (I'm not convinced by any means that he did, but when speaking to others, it seems important to be able to convey the fact that Jesus could speak of Gehenna without reflecting thoughts of ET.)
Mark 9:44 and 9:46 is missing in several translations. Verse number differ too.
IIRC it's not in the original sources.
"The Bible in basic English" is such a translation.
Only in verse 48 we see "the worm"
But also read the next two verses....
Mark 9:48-50
48 Where their worm is ever living and the fire is not put out.
49 Everyone will be salted with fire.
50 Salt is good; but if the taste goes from it, how will you make it salt again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace one with another.
Everyone includes the saints. (49)
And it seems even to be good. (50)
Personal note:
"not put out" means noone can/will stop the fire. But fire without fuel stops automaticly.
Not
Quote3756 ouv ou {oo} also (before a vowel) ouvk ouk {ook} and (before an aspirate) ouvc ouch {ookh}
Meaning: 1) no, not; in direct questions expecting an affirmative answer
Origin: a primary word, the absolute negative [cf 3361] adverb;; particle
Usage: AV - not 1214, no 136, cannot + 1410 55, misc 48; 1453
Misc: Wigram's frequency count is 1535 not 1453.
Could we read it as:
Mark 9:48 Where their worm dieth not
?, and the fire is not
? quenched.
It's a reference to Isaiah 66:24. I have yet to figure out if it was referenced with a reason.
when Jesus spoke in Aramaic/Hebrew, He didn't say Gehenna, but valley of Hinnom (in Aramaic), now when a Jew heard valley of Hinnom - came a place of everlasting torment in his mind? - I can hardly imagine that; btw. is it possible, that Jesus always threatened the Jerusalamite Jews with Gehenna? Josephus wrote about the belief of the Pharisees, but Gehenna is not found in his writings, as far as I know.
"Origen, one of the few Fathers who studied Hebrew for the express purpose of interpreting Scripture, tells us that he had found by inquiry what the Jews really meant by Gehenna; and that Celsus and others (like most men now) talked of it with no knowledge of its real significance. Besides its primary meaning of the Valley of Hinnom outside Jerusalem,
it had come, he said, to acquire the secondary meaning of a purificatory punishment. There he stops short with a mysterious remark that "he does not think it wise to dwell any further on his discoveries." It is impossible to doubt that he had discovered that normally the Jews did not apply the word to an endless but to a terminable punishment – terminable partly by deliverance from it, partly by extinction of sentient life. It was in accordance with Origen's avowed use of "oeconomy" in treating of the subject, that in a popular book he should have kept his discovery in the background. Then, as now, there were men who regarded popular misconceptions as too useful to correct." *
*Orig. c. Cels. vi. 25.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/mercyandjudgment/mercy_and_judgment_ch13.html
the question is, when did that happen, that Gehenna became the name of hell or purgatory? - I've never saw any quotation from a writing prior to the New Testament that supports this view.
Quote48 Where their worm is ever living and the fire is not put out.
literally it would be maybe:
where their worm does not come to an end (in the sense of not perish or something like that) and their fire is not quenched.however even unquenchable fire burns only as long as it has food and also worms that not perish do not life everlastingly.
Sven,
Wow, that's some nice information! Thank you for providing it! Both parts, about Gehenna being referenced as the valley of Hinnom, as opposed to simply Gehenna, and also on Origen: I found that particularly significant! A purification process in Gehenna? Is it not, perhaps, ironic that nowadays it's taught that Gehenna is just the opposite, that is, it's Hell - a place of eternal, inescapable torment.
:cloud9: The state of the tongue, is that which has worms in it. It is what will eventually speak us into walking in the outer court realm PERMANENTLY (as in not a firstfruits of this dispensation, but raised up later), where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, seeing what we could have had, if only we had not loved our own lives/ways more than His, ie. if you are lukewarm I will spit you out of My mouth.
The tongue is an unruly member and no man can tame it. We eat of the fruit of our own lips; we are judged by our own wickedness. Out of the abundance (harvest term) of the heart, the mouth speaks. This is how it works.
Evil spirit = a breath. It speaks as a thought to us, which is why the first article of our armor is the HELMET of salvation. If we take that thought/breath it "FALLS" from our "heaven/mind", ie. turns into a seed in our flesh/heart/soul. This is why we are told to take every THOUGHT into captivity of the mind of Christ.
Our soul is as a woman's womb; it will reproduce whatever seed is planted in it. If we continue to water that seed (give it life for expression) it will grow, and produce fruit in our lives, eventually. This is why hate is as the sin of murder; hate is the seed, but murder is the fruit. That which is not visible and inward, becomes visible and an outward manifestation/murder.
When the Lord said He beheld Satan (as a collective of evil, that which is in opposition to the mind of Christ) fall from heaven as lightning; He was saying Satan appeared in our heavens (minds) as revelation appears ie. like lightning, but as carnal knowledge (= our ways), and "he" fell to the earth/our wombs, as seed, as we accepted his thoughts.
Seed time and harvest is an unbreakable principle of the Kingdom, whether or not someone is aware of it or not, does not matter; sowing and reaping continue. The good news is, as we seek His face/nature with our whole heart, it is counted as entering into His rest, though we may not "live" there yet, in full experience. And in the 7th year (day) no field was to be planted, ie. it RESTED.
What that means is, in the 7th day (day is like a THOUSAND YEARS), there was a "crop failure", ordained by God. So as we press in to receive more and more of our true Sabbath which is Christ, that seed that was planted by the enemy, will also have a "crop failure" ordained by God, until those that are seeking His face, will say; the prince of this world (prince of the powers of the AIR/breath) cometh, but he hath nothing in me.
And the last enemy to be overcome is DEATH = glorified body that had a "crop failure", where the tares are concerned. Sin, when it hath conceived, bringeth forth death. But sin, is destined to have a "crop failure", as the mind of Christ, our REST/Sabbath, claims what is His, and shall appear suddenly in His temple, whose temple we are. That which is not visible/Christ in us the hope of glory, becomes visible, ie. the glory manifested outwardly = a HARVEST.
This principle is why the serpent has grown to be a dragon by the end of times/days, ie. he was fed by the imaginations of men's minds/hearts, which God said only devises wickedness continually. How much of the fire of God (Gehenna) do we need to burn up that which we have had planted by agreement/covenant with the enemy of our souls? :mshock: Blessings....
I suggest, that when Jesus referred to Gehenna, his comments were not based on Jewish popular beliefs and traditions, but rather, those statements of Jesus need to be considered in the context of the long and detailed history of Gehenna recorded in the Old Testament, and on what the prophets had written.
Jerusalem, in the New Testament, is the type of the church, the holy city, which Jesus called "the city of the Great King." The church the heavenly Jerusalem and the bride of Christ. Gehenna was the garbage dump of the earthly city. Thus in the statements of Jesus that refer to Gehenna, it was typical of the status of the things and the individuals who are rejected as unfit for the kingdom. Thus it has its significance for the church, rather than for the world.
For more details see:
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/About_Gehenna.html (http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/About_Gehenna.html)
Doug
Quote from: Doug on June 22, 2009, 03:41:53 AM
I suggest, that when Jesus referred to Gehenna, his comments were not based on Jewish popular beliefs and traditions, but rather, those statements of Jesus need to be considered in the context of the long and detailed history of Gehenna recorded in the Old Testament, and on what the prophets had written.
Jerusalem, in the New Testament, is the type of the church, the holy city, which Jesus called "the city of the Great King." The church the heavenly Jerusalem and the bride of Christ. Gehenna was the garbage dump of the earthly city. Thus in the statements of Jesus that refer to Gehenna, it was typical of the status of the things and the individuals who are rejected as unfit for the kingdom. Thus it has its significance for the church, rather than for the world.
For more details see:
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/About_Gehenna.html (http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/About_Gehenna.html)
Doug
Thanks for the article Doug, I found it very informative and uplifting. The more I read about Gehenna the more obvious it appears that Jesus in no way meant ET.
Hi Tim,
You may also find this article interesting.
Gehenna in J.A. Alexander's Matthew Commentary
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/JAA-gehenna.html
Cheers, Doug
Tim ,
Obviously, there are many thought on what Gehenna is but there is one scripture passage in the BIble that seems fairly plain, if I am interpreting it correctly, that it will be, or is, or was (LOL) a temporary place/condition.
Matthew 23:
23."Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
24.You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25."Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
26.Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27."Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
28.In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29."Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous.
30.And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
31.So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
32.Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
33."You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
34.Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
35.And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36.I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
37."O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
38.Look, your house is left to you desolate.
39.For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
Even though Jesus sentences them to Hell, He says they will see Him when they say "Blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord" i must admit, I don't see this reasoning used much, so I do wonder if I am looking at it incorrectly...of course the ET'ers have different explanations. It does seem to say that Gehenna will last until those condemned to Hell repent...which is right in line with brimstone being for testing, purification..etc. That also agrees with Paul's teaching that every knee will bow and every tounge will confess....and God commands ALL to come to repentance. And, Jesus' teaching that He will draw all to Himself. And..in Adam all die and in Christ all live.
What do you think?
Debbie
Quote36.I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
thats interesting, it's
judgment of Gehenna btw. As far as I know many Jews have been killed and were possibly burned in Gehenna (the valley of Hinnom) in the war in 70 AD
Quote from: dboutwell on July 05, 2009, 05:39:01 PM
Even though Jesus sentences them to Hell, He says they will see Him when they say "Blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord" i must admit, I don't see this reasoning used much, so I do wonder if I am looking at it incorrectly...of course the ET'ers have different explanations. It does seem to say that Gehenna will last until those condemned to Hell repent...
I think ones personal hell/gehenna ends at this point:
Romans 14:11 for it is written: Living am I, the Lord is saying, For to Me shall bow every knee, And every tongue shall be acclaiming God!
When you kneel to God (inwardly) you are clean and ready to exit Gehenna. That's my view on it anyway.
Quoteof course the ET'ers have different explanations
Surely they have. God will break their legs/knees by brute force. Then they confess in agony. God has some fun with laughs at them and kicks 'm into hell.
For ETs the bowing of knees is just before Hell (White Throne). For me (but what do I know...) it's your exit ticked for hell.
Quote from: dboutwell on July 5, 2009
Matthew 23:
...
33."You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
34.Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
35.And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36.I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
The "blood" of all the righteous men slain since the murder of Abel refers to the guilt or sin of those who were responsible for these crimes, all of which was laid upon Jesus, when he was on the cross; as John said, he was "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." [John 1:29]
Since Jesus was part of the generation he was referring to, (his own), it was
that generation, from which the blood of all the righteous men slain from the foundation of the world, was required. And, he took on
himself the blood (i.e., the sins of the ones who were guilty of murdering them) of all those saints who have been slain since his death, as well.
Thus, I suggest, Jesus spoke of himself, when he referred to "this generation." He did not mean the Jews he was speaking to would have to suffer for the sins of their ancestors, who lived centuries before! (Would that be fair?) However, some have misunderstood his words, as implying that. Jesus did not even say "Jews" but "this generation."
The above also explains what he meant in Luke 21:32, when he referred to "
this generation."
Luke 21:31-33
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Since Jesus rose from the dead, his generation still remains today. It is a unique generation! And just as his words will remain forever, his generation will remain, even after heaven and earth have passed away, as He is part of that generation.
Doug
Hey Dboutwell! That's sounds like pretty good reasoning to me! I've heard other opinions on the last verse too, but yours seems more consistant right off the bat.
:cloud9: His generation is that of Spirit; all that are birthed of the Spirit, are of the generation that will declare (means to show openly) Him before the Father. Blessings....
The word "generation" can mean an age, or it can be a kind--as in each gives birth to its own kind, as used in biology.
Jesus spanned generations as the last Adam and the firstborn of many brothers, giving rise to a new generation out of the old, a new creation. He is our kinsman redeemer, the new fulfilling the old..
[this] "generation"
From
G1085
γένος
genos
ghen'-os
From G1096; "kin" (abstractly or concretely, literally or figuratively, individually or collectively): - born, country (-man), diversity, generation, kind (-red), nation, offspring, stock.
Matthew 13:52
Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 05, 2009, 07:09:21 PM
Quote from: dboutwell on July 05, 2009, 05:39:01 PM
Even though Jesus sentences them to Hell, He says they will see Him when they say "Blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord" i must admit, I don't see this reasoning used much, so I do wonder if I am looking at it incorrectly...of course the ET'ers have different explanations. It does seem to say that Gehenna will last until those condemned to Hell repent...
I think ones personal hell/gehenna ends at this point:
Romans 14:11 for it is written: Living am I, the Lord is saying, For to Me shall bow every knee, And every tongue shall be acclaiming God!
When you kneel to God (inwardly) you are clean and ready to exit Gehenna. That's my view on it anyway.
Quoteof course the ET'ers have different explanations
Surely they have. God will break their legs/knees by brute force. Then they confess in agony. God has some fun with laughs at them and kicks 'm into hell.
For ETs the bowing of knees is just before Hell (White Throne). For me (but what do I know...) it's your exit ticked for hell.
They wouldn't be swearing allegiance to God if he was just going to judge them and then throw them in Hell. I don't know of
anybody that would do that!
QuoteThey wouldn't be swearing allegiance to God if he was just going to judge them and then throw them in Hell. I don't know of anybody that would do that!
I don't agree with that Tim.
I think almost all will grab every chance, no matter how tiny, to make God change His mind.
Most people get extremely motivated to bow when standing on the edge of a lava pit.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 17, 2009, 09:50:36 PM
QuoteThey wouldn't be swearing allegiance to God if he was just going to judge them and then throw them in Hell. I don't know of anybody that would do that!
I don't agree with that Tim.
I think almost all will grab every chance, no matter how tiny, to make God change His mind.
Most people get extremely motivated to bow when standing on the edge of a lava pit.
Oh, well, I believe you misunderstood my point. I mean to say this: if they knew that swearing allegiance would do nothing to "save" them, then I doubt that anybody that was not going to be saved would swear allegiance to God, at least, if they were essentially allowed to maintain their normal willingness to rebel against God.
That is, even more clearly: if one knew that one would not be saved by swearing allegiance to God, then one probably wouldn't swear allegiance.
Thus, I was suggesting, that if one DOES swear allegiance it's because one willfully wishes to swear and join allegiance with God.
And going even further with this thought: therefore, if ALL willingly bow their knee and swear allegiance to Christ, then all will be on God's side and all will be saved and find their life in Christ.
Hopefully that makes more sense. :bigGrin:
Quote from: Tim B on July 19, 2009, 09:00:42 AM
That is, even more clearly: if one knew that one would not be saved by swearing allegiance to God, then one probably wouldn't swear allegiance.
I think we have to agree to disagree. When standing on the edge of a lava pit self preservation takes over from rebelion.
People will grab every chance to stay out of that pit. Even if that chance is in reality 0%.
QuoteThus, I was suggesting, that if one DOES swear allegiance it's because one willfully wishes to swear and join allegiance with God.
The verses (I know of) are not super clear on the honesty of the allegiance. But the over tone is real allegiance; the way I read them.
QuoteAnd going even further with this thought: therefore, if ALL willingly bow their knee and swear allegiance to Christ, then all will be on God's side and all will be saved and find their life in Christ.
But still I feel most will end up in Gehenna and the bowing takes place in/after Gehenna.
So before that there may be false allegiance.
A very important factor is how fast the judgements of God are. If the judging and casting into the fire only takes a blink of an eye we simply don't have time to kneel.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 19, 2009, 09:27:25 AM
Quote from: Tim B on July 19, 2009, 09:00:42 AM
That is, even more clearly: if one knew that one would not be saved by swearing allegiance to God, then one probably wouldn't swear allegiance.
I think we have to agree to disagree. When standing on the edge of a lava pit self preservation takes over from rebelion.
People will grab every chance to stay out of that pit. Even if that chance is in reality 0%.
I agree you're right to say that if any man thought he could avoid a fiery torment, one would do so even if it meant faking allegiance. I meant to say, however, that if a man understood that he had no chance of avoiding eternal torment in Hell, that he probably wouldn't be swearing allegiance (unless he felt compelled to because of God's glory or something lol). So I think we're both right actually, we just had different thoughts in our head as to the circumstances.
Quote
The verses (I know of) are not super clear on the honesty of the allegiance. But the over tone is real allegiance; the way I read them.
I hope it's real allegiance, which seems to be what Isaiah suggests, especially considering the peoples' swearing allegiance is followed by this verse: "24 Only in the Lord shall one say, I have righteousness (salvation and victory) and strength [to achieve]. To Him shall all come who were incensed against Him, and they shall be ashamed." I might be wrong, but it almost, if not directly states, that those who swear allegiance will be the ones who are speaking of having their righteousness and strength in the Lord. Of course, it also says they'll be ashamed, but I think that's just because people will be sorry for their former hatred of the Lord.
QuoteAnd going even further with this thought: therefore, if ALL willingly bow their knee and swear allegiance to Christ, then all will be on God's side and all will be saved and find their life in Christ.
But still I feel most will end up in Gehenna and the bowing takes place in/after Gehenna.
So before that there may be false allegiance.
A very important factor is how fast the judgements of God are. If the judging and casting into the fire only takes a blink of an eye
we simply don't have time to kneel.
[/quote]
The verse I have quoted in my signature seems to support the idea of bowing (and maybe swearing allegiance) comes after judgement, because it seems to suggest, to me anyway, that those bowing and swearing allegiance are those that God calls to be saved (aka everybody).
Quote from: Tim B on July 19, 2009, 10:05:31 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 19, 2009, 09:27:25 AM
And going even further with this thought: therefore, if ALL willingly bow their knee and swear allegiance to Christ, then all will be on God's side and all will be saved and find their life in Christ.
But still I feel most will end up in Gehenna and the bowing takes place in/after Gehenna.
So before that there may be false allegiance.
A very important factor is how fast the judgements of God are. If the judging and casting into the fire only takes a blink of an eye we simply don't have time to kneel.
QuoteThe verse I have quoted in my signature seems to support the idea of bowing (and maybe swearing allegiance) comes after judgement, because it seems to suggest, to me anyway, that those bowing and swearing allegiance are those that God calls to be saved (aka everybody).
But what exactly is judgement? Is it the verdict of the judge? Or is it the punishment (Gehenna) itself.
Let's look at your signature.
Isaiah 45:22-25
22 Look to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.
=> Doesn't say when people "Look to Me"
23 I have sworn by Myself, the word is gone out of My mouth in righteousness and shall not return, that unto Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear [allegiance].
=> "Shall" hasn't a time limit. Can be within a second or after a trillion years.
24 Only in the Lord shall one say, I have righteousness (salvation and victory) and strength [to achieve]. To Him shall all come who were incensed against Him, and they shall be ashamed.
=> Again shall. See above.
=> Plus no mention if it is before, during, after the judgement.
25 In the Lord shall all the offspring of Israel be justified (enjoy righteousness, salvation, and victory) and shall glory.
=> No argument about the final victory of God. But again no time limitation.
So I agree all eventually will bow with a honest heart.
But for me that doesn't exclude people will bow with ill intentions before that. Neither it tells me when the bowing happens.
But using my own logic the majority bows in honesty after or during their part in LoF. Why?
Simply because if you assume that those who bow are saved then most will not bow. Most are on the wide road.
Note about saved: When I write saved I don't mean some/many are unsaved or never will be saved as in ET.
We are saved from things like ET stuff or being wiped out of existance.
So IMO we are saved from torture but not from a good (time/pain limited) spanking (...stripes...)
So when I write unsaved I acutally mean those in for a good spanking.
WW wrote .
QuoteBut what exactly is judgement? Is it the verdict of the judge? Or is it the punishment (Gehenna) itself.
That is a great point WW !
you know I always thought of judgment as opinion with a few facts or lies even :sigh: making one act uopn them opinions in mankind
Not God though He knows the very thoughts and intent of the heart in every man
this makes me believe whole heartedly the verse Jesus spoke as you judge so shall you be judged , this giving a chance for the law to work in wrath
or mercy as one judges and gives his opinion /voice
Strong's G2920 - krisis κρίσις
Transliteration
krisis
Pronunciation
krē'-sēs (Key)
Part of Speech
feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
perhaps a primitive word
TDNT Reference
3:941,469
Vines
View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage 1) a separating, sundering, separation
a) a trial, contest
2) selection
3) judgment
a)
opinion or decision given concerning anything1) esp. concerning justice and injustice, right or wrong
b) sentence of condemnation, damnatory judgment, condemnation and punishment
4) the college of judges (a tribunal of seven men in the several cities of Palestine; as distinguished from the Sanhedrin, which had its seat at Jerusalem)
5) right, justice
now would that make one s judgment /opinion /voice a living punnishment
well to me it sure could :icon_flower:
Definition A is interesting and speaks to a living punishment or participation in the contest to run the race as if to win the prize and overcome as I have overcome with the divine gift of the Spirit giving us the wisdom, knowledge and understanding of how to do so with faith hope and love.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 21, 2009, 05:03:58 PM
Definition A is interesting and speaks to a living punishment or participation in the contest to run the race as if to win the prize and overcome as I have overcome with the divine gift of the Spirit giving us the wisdom, knowledge and understanding of how to do so with faith hope and love.
Hi Beloved :icon_flower: it does remind me of Pauls words as well ! :HeartThrob:
http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/ScholasticArticles/FunkandWagnallsEncyclopedia.htm
QuoteEarly Christian writers used the term hell to designate (1) the limbo of
infants, where the unbaptized enjoy a natural bliss but are denied the
supernatural bliss of the vision of God; (2) the limbo of the fathers, in
which the souls of the just who died before the advent of Christ await their
redemption, and which is mentioned in the Apostles' Creed, "He [Christ]
descended into hell"; (3) a place of purgation from minor offenses leading
inevitably to heaven (see PURGATORY); and (4) the place of punishment of
Satan and the other fallen angels and of all mortals who die unrepentant of
serious sin.
Note the word "Bliss" and not "Blister"
Need I say more....?