What if we said nes wins?

[WhiteWings]

Luckily the appendix is free of (c)opyright[/b]

Christian Double-Talk[/b]

What Traditional Christians Say...	What They Really Mean...
Love never faileth!	Love can't overcome human stubborness.
There's nothing you must do to be saved......	Here's what you must do to be saved:
You are absolutely, totally helpless to save yourself.	You must make a wise decision in order to be saved.
God controls all things.	God doesn't control man's free will.
We can't boast about going to heaven.	If we go to hell, it's our own fault.
Men are in bondage to sin.	Men are free to choose Christ.
Grace is unmerited favor...	... given only to those who merit it with faith and obedience.
GOD IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MANKIND	(1 Tim. 4:10)...  ... except for about ninety percent of them.
GOD'S LOVE IN UNCONDITIONAL...	... as long as you meet certain conditions.
GOD'S WILL IS UNOPPOSABLE...	... except by the sinner.
Salvation is not a thing of chance.	There is no second chance to be saved.
WE HAVE GOOD NEWS FOR YOU!	Most of mankind will perish forever.
GOD LOVES YOU!	... as long as you love Him.
Christ died for all sin...	... except the sin of not believing that He died for all sin.
The Good Shepherd seeks the lost sheep until he finds it!	The Good Shepherd seeks until it's too late.
God's justice was satisfied in the cross of Christ.	God's justice demands eternal torment or annihilation.

1997 by Jeff Preddy.
May be copied for non-commercial purposes,

[Nathan]

Wow . . .this was fantastic!!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Cardinal]

John 6:44  "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
John 14:6  Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Hmm, what's this??  Being DRAWN and coming are 2 different words with 2 different meanings.
John 12:32  And I, when I am lifted up[a] from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

:icon_flower:

If one checks the definition of Draw- it means TO DRAG- which some may think means to Grab by the scruff of the Neck and haul across the ground-

If you check the word Sarx[ Flesh] that also means something that can be STRIPPED off-it also mentions CARNALLY minded


its really ALL  referring to the FLESH being stripped away- the carnal mind- even repentance is a Changing of the MIND- a turning around -

WHICH COMES VIA THE Goodness OF THE lord

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

In Math 23 where Christ TEARS at the Pharisees by what some say, with the use of sarcasm- oddly enough in the GREEK-it means Tear at-[ the FLESH] - the hardness of the pharisses heart needs tearing away- SUCH wisdom dont you THINK?

can we look at these scrips again?

John 14:6  Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.


"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.


John 12:32  And I, when I am lifted up[a] from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

No one can come to the LORD lest the Father
DRAWS[ begins to tear away at the carnal mind- the opening of the Heart and Mind ] such is the GOODNESS of repentance-

ALL work is HIS- that NO flesh should GLORY- :icon_flower:

ALL die in ADAM- all """MADE ALIVE" in Christ-  :icon_flower: each in their own order- further more nes can you find me a scripture which says SALVATION is fully complete in this era ONLY

Blessings :icon_flower:

:thumbsup:

[Cardinal]

Luckily the appendix is free of (c)opyright[/b]

Christian Double-Talk[/b]

What Traditional Christians Say...	What They Really Mean...
Love never faileth!	Love can't overcome human stubborness.
There's nothing you must do to be saved......	Here's what you must do to be saved:
You are absolutely, totally helpless to save yourself.	You must make a wise decision in order to be saved.
God controls all things.	God doesn't control man's free will.
We can't boast about going to heaven.	If we go to hell, it's our own fault.
Men are in bondage to sin.	Men are free to choose Christ.
Grace is unmerited favor...	... given only to those who merit it with faith and obedience.
GOD IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MANKIND	(1 Tim. 4:10)...  ... except for about ninety percent of them.
GOD'S LOVE IN UNCONDITIONAL...	... as long as you meet certain conditions.
GOD'S WILL IS UNOPPOSABLE...	... except by the sinner.
Salvation is not a thing of chance.	There is no second chance to be saved.
WE HAVE GOOD NEWS FOR YOU!	Most of mankind will perish forever.
GOD LOVES YOU!	... as long as you love Him.
Christ died for all sin...	... except the sin of not believing that He died for all sin.
The Good Shepherd seeks the lost sheep until he finds it!	The Good Shepherd seeks until it's too late.
God's justice was satisfied in the cross of Christ.	God's justice demands eternal torment or annihilation.

1997 by Jeff Preddy.
May be copied for non-commercial purposes,

:thumbsup:

[nes]

What Traditional Christians Say...    What They Really Mean...
Love never faileth!    Love can't overcome human stubborness.

It's easier for the world to pass (and all the love in it) than for a letter of the law to be changed.  God making a lie would be evil and not love.  God can't have love inside of him.  If god says that unbelievers won't be in heaven and he lies about it by letting unbelievers in heaven, then god would have evil in him.

There's nothing you must do to be saved......    Here's what you must do to be saved:

Abraham was confident that he would see his infant son in heaven.  So it appears that everyone is saved until they are committing blasphemy of the holy spirit.
So "Here's what you must not be doing to be saved"

You are absolutely, totally helpless to save yourself.    You must make a wise decision in order to be saved.

No you aren't helpless to save yourself, you do not need to make any "decisions" to be saved.  You just need to not be committing blasphemy of the holy spirit.

God controls all things.    God doesn't control man's free will.

God does not literally control all things, god isn't controlling my hands typing this on the keyboard.

We can't boast about going to heaven.    If we go to hell, it's our own fault.

That's correct, you are without excuse.

Men are in bondage to sin.    Men are free to choose Christ.

Men are free to reject christ.

Grace is unmerited favor...    ... given only to those who merit it with faith and obedience.

It's given to everybody, such as when god delays judgement to the lake of fire.

GOD IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MANKIND    (1 Tim. 4:10)...  ... except for about ninety percent of them.

That's correct, he is the savior of mankind, but people reject it.

GOD'S LOVE IN UNCONDITIONAL...    ... as long as you meet certain conditions.

Just because somebody goes to the lake of fire does not mean that god does not love the person.  God loves people on earth even though he didn't make contact with those people.  You don't need to feel love by god to be loved by him.

GOD'S WILL IS UNOPPOSABLE...    ... except by the sinner.

God's will doesn't involve forcefully changing someone's decision and choosing to reject christ.

Salvation is not a thing of chance.    There is no second chance to be saved.

Not true, you can call out to the lord to be saved. 

WE HAVE GOOD NEWS FOR YOU!    Most of mankind will perish forever.

The good news is that instead of 90% of mankind perishing forever, about 60% will instead.  Just because a lot of people choose to reject christ does not mean that god will tell lies.

GOD LOVES YOU!    ... as long as you love Him.

You don't have the capability to love him.  Jesus said obey my commandments to show your love.

Christ died for all sin...    ... except the sin of not believing that He died for all sin.

You need to have a clean heart and not one of a dirty rag.  Having your sins forgiven does not get you a new heart.
No where does it say that christ died for all sin.
Christ is the savior of the world, christ is everyone's savior unless the person rejects his gift.

The Good Shepherd seeks the lost sheep until he finds it!    The Good Shepherd seeks until it's too late.

Seeking is not getting, you can seek a million dollars but that doesn't mean you'll get a million dollars.

God's justice was satisfied in the cross of Christ.    God's justice demands eternal torment or annihilation.

God's justice (for everyone) was not satisfied in the cross of Christ, it never says that in the bible.

[Paul Hazelwood]

God sent Jesus to be Saviour of the world.


Jesus Wins,  so NES wins too, just not the way he thinks.    :laughing7:

[Paul Hazelwood]

No where does it say that christ died for all sin.

Some points may be true, but a true point does not necessarily negate what a person is ultimatly arguing against.

The fallacy is the assertion that if the bible doesn't explicitly say "all sins" then Jesus does not take care of all sin.

1Jn 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.


What part of this scriptural fact is left to build a conclusion that we must assume that this is not concerning every sin we commit?   

There is none.

This is a common misconception from all biblical points of view, many people make demands that a scripture must be found to read a certain way in order to maintain a truth of a conclusion when there are many ways scripture allows conclusions.

If scripture tells me that Jesus died for my sins, there is no need for me to wonder if he died for all of them in the context of who Jesus is and the power that he has. He indeed did die for all of my sins and yours too.


The final problem in this excersize of exposing fallacy is that few if any ( I personally have never met one, perhaps nes can be the first) will apply thier own assertions to themselves to the full extent of the implications.

nes,  if Jesus did not die for all sins, then that exposes YOU to the possibility and more than likely so,  that he did not die for all of YOURS and therefore it is highly likely, as an imperfect being, that you , given you believe in eternal damnation, that you yourself are damned.

[shawn]

If Jesus died for only some sins, why does scripture not tell us which sins Jesus died for?  Did he die for adultery but not murder?

[jabcat]

God sent Jesus to be Saviour of the world.


Jesus Wins,  so NES wins too, just not the way he thinks.    :laughing7:

:thumbsup:

Reminds me Paul of me praying for my agnostic brother to be saved.  It was before I knew absolutely anything about UR.  One day while praying, I sensed God speak to me, "he will be saved, but not as you expect".  At the time I didn't know what that meant.  Praise God He has a much BIGGER plan than most of us typically give him credit for.  Hallelujah!  Jesus is Lord, and ALL things will be summed up in Him.

.".with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him.."  Eph. 1:10

[WhiteWings]

What Traditional Christians Say...    What They Really Mean...
Love never faileth!    Love can't overcome human stubborness.

It's easier for the world to pass (and all the love in it) than for a letter of the law to be changed.  God making a lie would be evil and not love.  God can't have love inside of him.  If god says that unbelievers won't be in heaven and he lies about it by letting unbelievers in heaven, then god would have evil in him.

Firstly nobody on this forum claims there will be even 1 unbeliever in heaven. That's exactly 0 unbelievers.
Secondly you didn't answer the statement. Using your own words If God lies He would have evil in Him. He clearly states love wins. If human stubborness can over come that love His live didn't win and He lied.
That's the thing you should debunk.

There's nothing you must do to be saved......    Here's what you must do to be saved:

Abraham was confident that he would see his infant son in heaven.  So it appears that everyone is saved until they are committing blasphemy of the holy spirit.
So "Here's what you must not be doing to be saved"

Nothing means nothing. You just added a condtion (= something) that needs to be do to get saved.
Besides of that nowhere it's said blasphemy of the holy spirit makes people loosing salvation.

You are absolutely, totally helpless to save yourself.    You must make a wise decision in order to be saved.

No you aren't helpless to save yourself, you do not need to make any "decisions" to be saved.  You just need to not be committing blasphemy of the holy spirit.

Nothing means nothing. You just added a condtion (= something) that needs to be do to get saved.
Besides of that nowhere it's said blasphemy of the holy spirit makes people loosing salvation.

God controls all things.    God doesn't control man's free will.

God does not literally control all things, god isn't controlling my hands typing this on the keyboard.

I can I agree with that Nes. But don't you agree He controlea all things that matter? We can argue what exactly matters; but I think the eternal destiny of His creation is high on the list.

We can't boast about going to heaven.    If we go to hell, it's our own fault.

That's correct, you are without excuse.

That's not what the quote is about.
We can't boast about going to heaven means:
a] We are to evil/veiled/blinded/etc to earn heaven
b] We can only enter heaven by grace.

That simply means 100% of humanity (minus Jesus) is without excuse.
So "without excuse"has nothing to do with salvation.

Men are in bondage to sin.    Men are free to choose Christ.

Men are free to reject christ.

Being bondage to sin means men don't have luxary of choice. Bondage means tied down so you can't move. Can't move to the light.

Grace is unmerited favor...    ... given only to those who merit it with faith and obedience.

It's given to everybody, such as when god delays judgement to the lake of fire.

So God puts everyone in the bondage of sin and then judges them because they are in bondage?

GOD IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MANKIND    (1 Tim. 4:10)...  ... except for about ninety percent of them.

That's correct, he is the savior of mankind, but people reject it.

A savior is someone that saves. No excuses. Just save. The rejecting is because the bondage to sin.
If all people would reject His teaching/gift would He still be a savior? (saved 0 people)

GOD'S LOVE IN UNCONDITIONAL...    ... as long as you meet certain conditions.

Just because somebody goes to the lake of fire does not mean that god does not love the person.  God loves people on earth even though he didn't make contact with those people.  You don't need to feel love by god to be loved by him.

If torturing someone in a lava pit without a end is love I wonder what hate is.

GOD'S WILL IS UNOPPOSABLE...    ... except by the sinner.

God's will doesn't involve forcefully changing someone's decision and choosing to reject christ.

But it is God's will to submit all to vanity. To veil everyone. To make everyone bondage to sin. Send a strong delusion. Etc
How can people chose when God did all the things mentioned above.

Salvation is not a thing of chance.    There is no second chance to be saved.

Not true, you can call out to the lord to be saved.

True. The main question is does everyone call out?
Is the veil ripped away so a person can call out?
If not it's chance.

WE HAVE GOOD NEWS FOR YOU!    Most of mankind will perish forever.

The good news is that instead of 90% of mankind perishing forever, about 60% will instead.  Just because a lot of people choose to reject christ does not mean that god will tell lies.

If Jesus says He came to save the world He lied for 60%.
Besides of that your view is very unbiblical.
Jesus reduced the unsave from 100% to  X% (X depends on the religious views)
Reducing from 90% to 60% means 10% saved themselfs. The Bible clearly stated nobody earned heaven. (except Jesus)

GOD LOVES YOU!    ... as long as you love Him.

You don't have the capability to love him.  Jesus said obey my commandments to show your love.

We are not capable and but must show love by following commandments. That's a contradiction.
Plus of course many don't believe Jesus because of the veil.
It's like locking up a child in jail and then be angry because it was to late for school....

Christ died for all sin...    ... except the sin of not believing that He died for all sin.

You need to have a clean heart and not one of a dirty rag.  Having your sins forgiven does not get you a new heart.
No where does it say that christ died for all sin.
Christ is the savior of the world, christ is everyone's savior unless the person rejects his gift.

It says He taketh away all sin. But in your view it's only a certain type or amount of sin?

The Good Shepherd seeks the lost sheep until he finds it!    The Good Shepherd seeks until it's too late.

Seeking is not getting, you can seek a million dollars but that doesn't mean you'll get a million dollars.

So the Good Shepherd is a failure?
The shepherd of the parable of the 100 sheep wasn't about Jesus I guess?
Jesus only saves 60 sheep. Very special sheep. Usually a shepherd searches for the sheep.
But those 60 special sheep are blindfolded. Then the Shepherd hides and just hopes the sheep save themselves.

God's justice was satisfied in the cross of Christ.    God's justice demands eternal torment or annihilation.

God's justice (for everyone) was not satisfied in the cross of Christ, it never says that in the bible.

The wages of sin is death. Jesus paid in full.

[Molly]

Nes, take a look at this:

29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

--John 1


If I take that completely literally, what is it saying?


"behold"

G2396
ἴδε
ide
id'-eh
Second person singular imperative active of G1492; used as interjection to denote surprise; lo!: - behold, lo, see.


Look at him!  What do you see?

the Lamb of God   ho amnos theos

which taketh away    airo

the sin                 ho hamartia

of the world          ho kosmos


!!!

[legoman]

God does not literally control all things, god isn't controlling my hands typing this on the keyboard.

True you are controlling your hands.  Yet God can indirectly control what you are typing.  If God hardened your heart you would be typing something different vs. if He did not harden your heart.  Likewise if He sent you a strong delusion vs. He opened your eyes to seeing a different understanding.  These things would all "control" what you actually decided to do.

God's will doesn't involve forcefully changing someone's decision and choosing to reject christ.

Love is a force that can change men's minds.

Not true, you can call out to the lord to be saved. 

And everyone will come and confess to the Lord (Psalm 22:27, Phil 2:9-11, Romans 14:11-12).  They will even swear allegiance (Isaiah 45:22-23).

The good news is that instead of 90% of mankind perishing forever, about 60% will instead.  Just because a lot of people choose to reject christ does not mean that god will tell lies.

Wow some good news.  The majority is still in pain forever.

No where does it say that christ died for all sin.

1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

The Good Shepherd seeks the lost sheep until he finds it!    The Good Shepherd seeks until it's too late.

Seeking is not getting, you can seek a million dollars but that doesn't mean you'll get a million dollars.

Jesus can't find everyone He wants?  According to you He's not very good at seeking I guess...  Jesus: 0, Hell: 1.

Good news!  Jesus can't find you...

[nes]

Nes, take a look at this:

29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

--John 1


If I take that completely literally, what is it saying?


"behold"

G2396
ἴδε
ide
id'-eh
Second person singular imperative active of G1492; used as interjection to denote surprise; lo!: - behold, lo, see.


Look at him!  What do you see?

the Lamb of God   ho amnos theos

which taketh away    airo

the sin                 ho hamartia

of the world          ho kosmos


!!!

The "which taketh away" (airōn in this verse) could be mistranslated.

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/142.htm

Original Word: αἴρω
Definition: I raise, lift up, take away, remove.

http://biblos.com/john/1-29.htm


It could also be translated to "takes away".  Which would mean that jesus takes away (active verb) sin from the world, but not taken away (past tense) all sin from the world.

EDIT:  The greek used appears to be an active verb.  Look how biblos translates airōn,"who takes away".  The word is labelled as V-PAP-NSM (Verb - Present Active Participle - Nominative Singular Masculine).  So it looks like the "n" added at the end of the greek word "airo" changes it from past tense to present tense.

So in the actual greek scriptures, it does not say airo, it says airōn.

[Molly]

Hi Nes,

WB!

Yes, that's present tense--'taketh' is present tense king james style.

I like meditating on one verse at a time.  In this verse, John is calling us into the present tense to Look!  'which taketh away' denotes a continuous action in the present tense.  The lamb was offered every day in the Temple.  Can you see the continuous quality of it in the sense of renewing our mind daily?  what about in the sense of the blood of Christ always being present and able to cover sin?  Now and forever.  Amen.


 
New Living Translation (©2007)
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!




Barnes' Notes on the Bible
The next day - The day after the Jews made inquiry whether he was the Christ.

Behold the Lamb of God - A "lamb," among the Jews, was killed and eaten at the Passover to commemorate their deliverance from Egypt, Exodus 12:3-11. A lamb was offered in the tabernacle, and afterward in the temple, every morning and evening, as a part of the daily worship, Exodus 29:38-39. The Messiah was predicted as a lamb led to the slaughter, to show his patience in his sufferings, and readiness to die for man, Isaiah 53:7. A lamb, among the Jews, was also an emblem of patience, meekness, gentleness. On "all" these accounts, rather than on any one of them alone, Jesus was called "the Lamb." He was innocent 1 Peter 2:23-25; he was a sacrifice for sin the substance represented by the daily offering of the lamb, and slain at the usual time of the evening sacrifice Luke 23:44-46; and he was what was represented by the Passover, turning away the anger of God, and saving sinners by his blood from vengeance and eternal death, 1 Corinthians 5:7.

Of God - Appointed by God, approved by God, and most dear to him; the sacrifice which he chose, and which he approves to save people from death.

Which taketh away - This denotes his "bearing" the sins of the world, or the sufferings which made an atonement for sin. Compare Isaiah 53:4; 1 John 3:5; 1 Peter 2:24. He takes away sin by "bearing" in his own body the sufferings which God appointed to show his sense of the evil of sin, thus magnifying the law, and rendering it consistent for him to pardon. See the notes at Romans 3:24-25.

Of the world - Of all mankind, Jew and Gentile. His work was not to be confined to the Jew, but was also to benefit the Gentile; it was not confined to any one part of the world, but was designed to open the way of pardon to all men. He was the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. See the notes at 2 Corinthians 5:15.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
The next day - The day after that on which the Jews had been with John, John 1:19.

Behold the Lamb of God, etc. - This was said in allusion to what was spoken Isaiah 53:7. Jesus was the true Lamb or Sacrifice required and appointed by God, of which those offered daily in the tabernacle and temple, Exodus 29:38, Exodus 29:39, and especially the paschal lamb, were only the types and representatives. See Exodus 12:4, Exodus 12:5; 1 Corinthians 5:7. The continual morning and evening sacrifice of a lamb, under the Jewish law, was intended to point out the continual efficacy of the blood of atonement: for even at the throne of God, Jesus Christ is ever represented as a lamb newly slain, Revelation 5:6. But John, pointing to Christ, calls him emphatically, the Lamb of God: - all the lambs which had been hitherto offered had been furnished by men: this was provided by God, as the only sufficient and available sacrifice for the sin of the world. In three essential respects, this lamb differed from those by which it was represented.

1st. It was the Lamb of God; the most excellent, and the most available.
2nd. It made an atonement for sin: it carried sin away in reality, the others only representatively.

3rd. It carried away the sin of the World, whereas the other was offered only on behalf of the Jewish people. In Yalcut Rubeni, fol. 30, it is said, "The Messiah shall bear the sins of the Israelites." But this salvation was now to be extended to the whole world.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vincent's Word Studies
John

The best texts omit.

Seeth (βλέπει)

Both ὁράω and βλέπω denote the physical act of seeing, the former seeing in general, the latter the single look. The perception indicated by βλέπω is more outward; the perception of sense as distinguished from mental discernment, which is prominent in ὁράω. A look told the Baptist that the Mightier One had come. See on John 1:18, and see on Matthew 7:3.

Unto (πρὸς)

Strictly, towards.

Behold (ἴδε)

The imperative in the singular number, though the company of his followers is addressed. This construction, however, is not uncommon. See Matthew 26:65; Acts 13:46.

The Lamb (ὁ ἀμνὸς)

The word occurs in John only here and in John 1:36. Also in Acts 8:32; 1 Peter 1:19. The diminutive ἀρνίον, a little lamb, is found once in the Gospel (John 21:15), often in Revelation, but only of the glorified Redeemer, and nowhere else in the New Testament. In some instances the word may emphasize the gentle and innocent character of Jesus suffering to expiate the sins of men (Revelation 5:6, Revelation 5:12; Revelation 13:8); but it is also employed in describing Him as indignant (Revelation 6:16); as victorious (Revelation 17:4); as the object of adoration (Revelation 5:8); and as enthroned (Revelation 5:13; Revelation 7:17).

The term, the Lamb of God (note the article), is evidently used here by the Baptist in some sense understood by his hearers, and points to Isaiah 53:7; compare Acts 8:32. The reference is probably to the Paschal lamb, though commentators differ.

Of God

Provided by God for sacrifice.

That taketh away (ὁ αἴρων)

continued...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Geneva Study Bible
{13} The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold {n} the Lamb of God, which {o} taketh away the {p} sin of the world.

(13) The body and truth of all the sacrifices of the law, to make satisfaction for the sin of the world, is Christ.

(n) This word the which is added has great force in it, not only to set forth the worthiness of Christ, and so to separate him for the lamb which was a symbol of him, and from all other sacrifices of the law, but also to remind us of the prophecies of Isaiah and others.

(o) This word is in the present tense, and signifies a continuous act, for the Lamb rightfully has this power both now and forever to take away the sins of the world.

[Nathan]

Nes isn't here to join in rest, he's here to do warfare . . . whcih if only he came a couple years ago then I could battle back . . .But God went and turned my weapons into plowshares . . .dang it!! :dontknow:

[Lefein]

He's here to do warfare?  Alas, blessed are the peacemakers...If I remember the words of my Lord correctly.

It was unfortunate enough for me to learn that fact first hand...

But at any rate, it all comes down to a very simple point.

If Hell isn't remedial, then it is not just.

[legoman]

Nes isn't here to join in rest, he's here to do warfare . . . whcih if only he came a couple years ago then I could battle back . . .But God went and turned my weapons into plowshares . . .dang it!! :dontknow:

Well said Nathan!  Swords into plowshares ...

[WhiteWings]

The "which taketh away" (airōn in this verse) could be mistranslated.

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/142.htm

Original Word: αἴρω
Definition: I raise, lift up, take away, remove.

http://biblos.com/john/1-29.htm


It could also be translated to "takes away".  Which would mean that jesus takes away (active verb) sin from the world, but not taken away (past tense) all sin from the world.

EDIT:  The greek used appears to be an active verb.  Look how biblos translates airōn,"who takes away".  The word is labelled as V-PAP-NSM (Verb - Present Active Participle - Nominative Singular Masculine).  So it looks like the "n" added at the end of the greek word "airo" changes it from past tense to present tense.

So in the actual greek scriptures, it does not say airo, it says airōn.

In that line of reasoning all OT people are doomed. And of course the vast majority of the NT people. Simply because the present tense was present tense 2000 years ago. Jesus isn't taking away sins anymore. Even worse people during His ministry were doomed just as well. When He forgave someone his/her sin He was just talking about the sins of that day. Not the sins the person commited 10 years ago.
I think when Jesus forgave someone his/her sins it were all sins the person ever commited. Also the sins of the past. Now look at the wold as a person. Jesus took away the sins commited during the existance of the world.

Tense-Present

The present tense represents a simple statement of fact
or reality viewed as occurring in actual time.  In most cases
this corresponds directly with the English present tense.

Some phrases which might be rendered as past tense in English
will often occur in the present tense in Greek.  These are
termed "historical presents, " and such occurrences dramatize
the event described as if the reader were there watching the
event occur.  Some English translations render such historical
presents in the English past tense, while others permit the
tense to remain in the present.

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Voice-Active

The active voice represents the subject as the doer or
performer of the action.  e.g., in the sentence, "The
boy hit the ball, " the boy performs the action.

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Mood-Participle

The Greek participle corresponds for the most part to the
English participle, reflecting "- ing" or "- ed" being suffixed
to the basic verb form.  The participle can be used either
like a verb or a noun, as in English, and thus is often termed
a "verbal noun."