What about problem of evil?

[B_T]

When I told a girlfriend of mine that I don't believe in everlasting Hell, because God is not that cruel, she asked me a contra-question: "Is God cruel for allowing people to suffer on Earth today? He will allow the unbelievers to suffer eternally for the same reason he allows people to suffer on Earth".

Looks we have an article here: http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html

What do you think?

[Paul Hazelwood]

He will allow the unbelievers to suffer eternally for the same reason he allows people to suffer on Earth".

And what is the reason your girlfriend gives?

[B_T]

Emmm... I dunno.

[sven]

its an interesting thought, you might ask your girl friend:

does God make people suffer on earth or does he just allow that they suffer?

if she says God allows it only, then ask her, why should God torture people for ever and ever? - there is no immortal soul, so if there would be eternal hell, it would be not because its the natural consequence, but because God would want it that way, keeping people alive only to torture them.

she might get problems to answer this, if this is really her believe.

[martincisneros]

Eternal Suffering verses suffering on this planet for a few hundred years at the absolute most.  I don't see the connection.  Does she have emotional problems or other logic issues?  And the reason I say in comparison with suffering on this planet for a few hundred years at the absolute most is because I'm still hearing fish stories about how long some people are living in certain parts of the world, still plowing their fields at 120 and 130, etc., mystics in India claiming to be 300 years old, etc.  Allowing for all of that to be true, inspite of our inherent tendency to roll our eyes about it when we hear about it, but just allowing the possibility for a minute for the sake of argument.  It still doesn't follow that although someone's varying degrees of suffering in this life could be prolonged by that much that therefore eternal torment is absolutely true in another world, in another state, or in another form.  Makes about as much sense as saying that because kitchen stoves are hot, therefore Hell is hot.

[WhiteWings]

still plowing their fields at 120 and 130, etc., mystics in India claiming to be 300 years old, etc.

They just look that old Martin  :laughing7:

Genesis 6:3  And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

The One pulling all the strings seems to claim 120 is the max..... Or not?

I don't see the connection.

I think that the connection is that if God is against suffering He can use His powers to stop the suffering immediately.

[Taffy]

They just look that old Martin 

Genesis 6:3  And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

The One pulling all the strings seems to claim 120 is the max..... Or not?

Yo WW, can anyone give an Answer...  :icon_flower:

[martincisneros]

There's never been a limit imposed directly by God on man's age.  The reference in Genesis is to 120 years until Noah's Flood happened from when God said that.  The reference in Psalm 90 about 70 or 80 years old is addressed to people that were under God's curse for having refused to go and take the Promised Land under His leadership.  God was systematically eliminating a generation so that He could take the younger generation into the Promised Land.  And He does do the same thing to the present day when He has purposes of grace and a message to take into a new generation and the older generation is stuck in their religious traditional ways and refuses either the baptism with the Holy Spirit, or a change in perspective about God's deepening grace and mercy, a new level of teaching, or various other things/purposes. 

But there is no universal law set up by God that says that you can't live to be a thousand or even ten thousand years old.  It's all diet, attitude, and paradigm about how long people live.  There have been people that have been traumatized by the death of a loved one or by someone being "Missing In Action" that have had to be committed to mental health care facilities for the rest of their lives and it's documented that 30 to 50 years later they're not physically a day older than when they shut down waiting on a loved one to return from a war or whatever.

Train up a child in the way that he should go, and when he's older he'll not depart from it, according to Proverbs.  We're taught to die at less than 120, but it wasn't this way from the beginning.

[WhiteWings]

Martin

There's never been a limit imposed directly by God on man's age.  The reference in Genesis is to 120 years until Noah's Flood happened from when God said that.

I've found several commentaries saying the same. People had 120 years to repent.

They just look that old Martin 

Genesis 6:3  And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

The One pulling all the strings seems to claim 120 is the max..... Or not?

Yo WW, can anyone give an Answer...  :icon_flower:

I gave my answer just above your 1st post. I can understand the question of B_T girlfriend very well. I have similar thoughts.

[Tony N]

It just seems too extreme to me that God would bring billions of people into existence in this sin sick world with all of its darkness and destruction, famine and all the evils that go along with it and these billions of people suffer for their entire lives only to stand before the God of Christendom and He has to tell them that if they thought their life on earth was bad they aint seen nothin yet. And He has to tell them to depart into eternal hell fires where the torment is never ending. Is that really the kind of God we want to present to the billions of people on this earth that are already suffering?

Can anyone truly love such a God?
Do such Christians that believe in the above kind of God love Him because they fear His diabolicalness?
Is such a love a truly genuine kind of love? Or is it just a fire insurance kind of love?

I'm so glad we have a God we can share with the world that is a kinder, gentler God who truly is fond of humanity and seeks the highest for their good. His Son's death assures us that He truly loves all mankind.

Tony

When I told a girlfriend of mine that I don't believe in everlasting Hell, because God is not that cruel, she asked me a contra-question: "Is God cruel for allowing people to suffer on Earth today? He will allow the unbelievers to suffer eternally for the same reason he allows people to suffer on Earth".

Looks we have an article here: http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html

What do you think?

[Molly]

What if God has left the planet?

What if God sent Adam instead, and then Jesus?

What if how this planet goes is up to us?

We are given our choice between death and life, and if we keep choosing death, we will get death.

But it's not as if the final ante won't be totalled up at the end.



14For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

15And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

16Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.

17And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.

18But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.

19After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

20And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

21His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

22He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

23His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

24Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

25And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

26His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

28Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

--Mat 25

[Tony N]

Hi Molly, I'm curious what your thoughts are on this passage?

Jam 4:13-16  Come now, you who are saying, "Today or tomorrow we will be going into this or that city and should be spending a year there, and we will be trafficking and getting gain--"  (14)  who are not versed in that which is the morrow's, for what is your life? For a vapor are you, which is appearing briefly and thereupon disappearing--"  (15) instead of your saying, "If the Lord should ever be willing, and we shall be living, we also shall be doing this or that."  (16)  Yet now you are vaunting in your ostentations. All such boasting is wicked.

What does it say to you?

[fullarmor2]

One time I was praying about the topic of  suffering in the World and complaining to God about how I didn't understand it.  And in addition to the typical topics  which are used to help someone worrying about suffering,  the Spirit emphasized the doctrine of the separation to me. And I mean EMPHASIZED!    This natural realm is totally separated from God because of the fall.  The World and all flesh are  dying consequently.   Not to mention the curses against the natural realm.  And so I began to understand that the separation between this realm and God is the reason for suffering.  And that separation is absolutely  TOTAL.     And understanding this makes the importance of prayer clearer.  Prayer is the only thing which can bridge(Christ) the gulf of separation between our World and God. So, how important do you think prayer is!? 

[fullarmor2]

  Also, with regards to what your girlfriend said.  A question to her!   If God does not allow unending suffering in our World,  why would God allow it in the next life?  I would love to hear what her answer is.

[Molly]

Hi Molly, I'm curious what your thoughts are on this passage?

Jam 4:13-16  Come now, you who are saying, "Today or tomorrow we will be going into this or that city and should be spending a year there, and we will be trafficking and getting gain--"  (14)  who are not versed in that which is the morrow's, for what is your life? For a vapor are you, which is appearing briefly and thereupon disappearing--"  (15) instead of your saying, "If the Lord should ever be willing, and we shall be living, we also shall be doing this or that."  (16)  Yet now you are vaunting in your ostentations. All such boasting is wicked.

What does it say to you?

I would say that even though God has left the planet, he has left behind his servants who are to be a city on a hill to those who do not know him.  As such, these ambassadors have their citizenship in another country, the kingdom of God, and are here as angels[messengers] of God.

14"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.

--Mat 5

[Tony N]

Hi Molly,
Thanks for your sharing. I'm curious when God left the planet? especially when:

"in Him we are living and moving and are" (Act 17:28) and Paul told that to the Athenian unbelievers.

And we have God dwelling in the corporate body of believers, how can He leave the planet?

Thanks for your input.

Love and peace,
Tony

[Molly]

5"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

16"In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me."

--John 16








33Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come. 34It's like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with his assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.

35"Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. 36If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. 37What I say to you, I say to everyone: 'Watch!' "

--Mat 13

[Tony N]

5"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

16"In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me."

--John 16

33Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come. 34It's like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with his assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.

35"Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. 36If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. 37What I say to you, I say to everyone: 'Watch!' "

--Mat 13

And so you are saying your verses contradict the other Scriptures of the Bible which say God is still here?

[Molly]

John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

[Tony N]

Judas hung himself

[Molly]

Then Judas, His betrayer.....[said], "I have sinned by betraying innocent blood."

--Mat 27

[Tony N]

Mat 2:3 Now, hearing of it, King Herod was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him.

[firstborn888]

Not one sparrow falls without your Father. In him we live and move and have our being, absolutely. God and creation cannot be separated as He actively sustains life and existence for all. The only separation is in our minds, not in spiritual reality. As we understand this so the world will transformed until the knowledge of glory of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea.

[ScarletWren]

Jesus said he was going away, why?  So that the Holy Spirit could come to us.  The Holy Spirit OF God.  So we are not limited to a physcial man in a particular place in the world to comfort and teach us. 

The act of suffering is an experience of evil so we can enjoy the experience of health and well being in much greater abundance.  No matter how hard I try, I can't imagine realizing how great feeling good is until I've felt awful for a time.  We've all seen the result of sheltering and providing to our children whatever they desire--spoiled children who not many people like to be around.  It's amazing how preachers can talk about God torturing humanity endlessly and not seem to feel any sorrow or horror, but that it is just and what unbelievers deserve..  I really didn't hear many sermons on hell growing up.  I guess our preachers didn't feel comfortable with it.  I can't even remember where I first heard or read about tee mainstream concept of it now.   I'm just thrilled I know the true heart of the Father.

[Tony N]

Very good firstborn.

There is a verse in the Bible that says something like: If God withdraws His spirit they all perish.
But I can't find it. So we know if God really "left the building" we would not be viewing this message right now but would all be dead.

I think that what Molly is saying (and I could be wrong) but what I think she is saying that since, to her, Jesus is God, and since Jesus left for that "far away country" that therefore God left this earth.

But the question needs to be asked: Since Jesus said He is not God nor the Father by means of saying this:

Joh 20:17 which is the term for "Teacher.Jesus is saying to her, "Do not touch Me, for not as yet have I ascended to My Father. Now go to My brethren, and say to them that I said, 'Lo! I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God"

in what sense is Jesus God when some verses ascribe this title to Him? It is in the sense of Jesus being the Subjector. When the Jews were about to stone Him for making himself God He replied to them: Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, that 'I say you are gods'? " So Jesus was saying, look, I am a subjector just like you are subjectors.

So even though Jesus did ascend to heaven, we are still, as you rightly say: In Him (that is "in God") we live and move and have our being.