Saved by faith alone

[arcticmonster2003]

If we are saved by faith alone, then how can those whom have not believed here on earth be saved.

That is, if faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, then how shall anyone be saved by faith when they pass from this life that is the opportunity to be saved by faith alone, without seeing. For after they pass then they understand (those whom did not believe), by seeing, that they were wrong, this is not faith, but seeing and understanding.

How can one, seeing Jesus Christ, kneeling, and confessing his as Lord be said to have been saved by faith, if he did not believe while things were not yet seen?

[Paul Hazelwood]

You do not always have faith in what you see.

[arcticmonster2003]

You do not always have faith in what you see.

Huh?

[Paul Hazelwood]

Faith is apart from seeing.   Faith is God given, what we see or don't see is irrevalent to faith.

[Zeek]

If we are saved by faith alone, then how can those whom have not believed here on earth be saved.

That is, if faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, then how shall anyone be saved by faith when they pass from this life that is the opportunity to be saved by faith alone, without seeing. For after they pass then they understand (those whom did not believe), by seeing, that they were wrong, this is not faith, but seeing and understanding.

How can one, seeing Jesus Christ, kneeling, and confessing his as Lord be said to have been saved by faith, if he did not believe while things were not yet seen?

imo,

I think one has to define what "saved" means.

All are not saved from the lake of fire, the destruction, the wrath of God.  Many go through the wide gait.  Only those who have been given faith and are faithful to the end will be saved from this wrath.  

But, the process is a change in covenants.  Old to New.  So the spirit is saved via destruction, as New is all there is, all there really ever was, just needed to have the veil burned away.

[Paul Hazelwood]

How can one, seeing Jesus Christ, kneeling, and confessing his as Lord be said to have been saved by faith, if he did not believe while things were not yet seen?

To clarify a bit further

Phl 2:10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean,

Phl 2:11 and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father.


These verses here do not mention seeing anything.   

Ro 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

[arcticmonster2003]

Faith is apart from seeing.   Faith is God given, what we see or don't see is irrevalent to faith.

I disagree, scriptures link seeing (or not seeing as it is) with the definition of faith, at least to some degree.

Hebrews 11:1  ¶Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

[arcticmonster2003]

If we are saved by faith alone, then how can those whom have not believed here on earth be saved.

That is, if faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, then how shall anyone be saved by faith when they pass from this life that is the opportunity to be saved by faith alone, without seeing. For after they pass then they understand (those whom did not believe), by seeing, that they were wrong, this is not faith, but seeing and understanding.

How can one, seeing Jesus Christ, kneeling, and confessing his as Lord be said to have been saved by faith, if he did not believe while things were not yet seen?

imo,

I think one has to define what "saved" means.

All are not saved from the lake of fire, the destruction, the wrath of God.  Many go through the wide gait.  Only those who have been given faith and are faithful to the end will be saved from this wrath.  

But, the process is a change in covenants.  Old to New.  So the spirit is saved via destruction, as New is all there is, all there really ever was, just needed to have the veil burned away.

The very basics of "The Faith" are now being brought into question.



Ephesians 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

[Zeek]

Gal 5:22  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,


Gal 5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


fallen from grace=====>destruction, shame

change in covenants

law-------->NEW

[Zeek]

If we are saved by faith alone, then how can those whom have not believed here on earth be saved.

That is, if faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, then how shall anyone be saved by faith when they pass from this life that is the opportunity to be saved by faith alone, without seeing. For after they pass then they understand (those whom did not believe), by seeing, that they were wrong, this is not faith, but seeing and understanding.

How can one, seeing Jesus Christ, kneeling, and confessing his as Lord be said to have been saved by faith, if he did not believe while things were not yet seen?

imo,

I think one has to define what "saved" means.

All are not saved from the lake of fire, the destruction, the wrath of God.  Many go through the wide gait.  Only those who have been given faith and are faithful to the end will be saved from this wrath.  

But, the process is a change in covenants.  Old to New.  So the spirit is saved via destruction, as New is all there is, all there really ever was, just needed to have the veil burned away.

The very basics of "The Faith" are now being brought into question.



Ephesians 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

so what does "saved" mean to you??

[Paul Hazelwood]

Faith is apart from seeing.   Faith is God given, what we see or don't see is irrevalent to faith.

I disagree, scriptures link seeing (or not seeing as it is) with the definition of faith, at least to some degree.

Hebrews 11:1  Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Well, mainly what I am getting at is that seeing or not seeing is not what we measure faith with.

Hb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

[arcticmonster2003]

Gal 5:22  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,


Gal 5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


fallen from grace=====>destruction, shame

change in covenants

law-------->NEW

Am I correct, that is have I understood you correctly, that you think some shall be saved by faith and some shall be "saved" by destruction?

Destruction does not fit my definition of "being saved". This sounds like a different gospel of "salvation".

Do you mean to tell me that when Paul was saying this:

1 Corinthians 5:5  To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

that he was implying that he was delivering the man, ultimately, to the lake of fire, and not to "satan for the destruction of the flesh"? I think Paul was delivering "such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh" as a chastisement, and not a permanent deliverance to Satan.

Paul wrote in his 2nd epistle to the Corinthians on the matter again:
2 Corinthians 2:8  Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.
9  For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
10  To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
11  Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

I think you have taken this verse much farther than its actual meaning. If your views are based upon this understanding of this one verse, I think they are wrong.

[arcticmonster2003]

Faith is apart from seeing.   Faith is God given, what we see or don't see is irrevalent to faith.

I disagree, scriptures link seeing (or not seeing as it is) with the definition of faith, at least to some degree.

Hebrews 11:1  Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Well, mainly what I am getting at is that seeing or not seeing is not what we measure faith with.

Hb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

I understand. I wasn't trying to measure faith by seeing or not seeing. Not a measurement, but a definition.

[arcticmonster2003]

If we are saved by faith alone, then how can those whom have not believed here on earth be saved.

That is, if faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, then how shall anyone be saved by faith when they pass from this life that is the opportunity to be saved by faith alone, without seeing. For after they pass then they understand (those whom did not believe), by seeing, that they were wrong, this is not faith, but seeing and understanding.

How can one, seeing Jesus Christ, kneeling, and confessing his as Lord be said to have been saved by faith, if he did not believe while things were not yet seen?

imo,

I think one has to define what "saved" means.

All are not saved from the lake of fire, the destruction, the wrath of God.  Many go through the wide gait.  Only those who have been given faith and are faithful to the end will be saved from this wrath.  

But, the process is a change in covenants.  Old to New.  So the spirit is saved via destruction, as New is all there is, all there really ever was, just needed to have the veil burned away.

The very basics of "The Faith" are now being brought into question.



Ephesians 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

so what does "saved" mean to you??

It means only one thing according to the gospel I know.

Romans 5:9  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

[Zeek]

Gal 5:22  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,


Gal 5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


fallen from grace=====>destruction, shame

change in covenants

law-------->NEW

Am I correct, that is have I understood you correctly, that you think some shall be saved by faith and some shall be "saved" by destruction?

Destruction does not fit my definition of "being saved". This sounds like a different gospel of "salvation".

Do you mean to tell me that when Paul was saying this:

1 Corinthians 5:5  To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

that he was implying that he was delivering the man, ultimately, to the lake of fire, and not to "satan for the destruction of the flesh"? I think Paul was delivering "such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh" as a chastisement, and not a permanent deliverance to Satan.

Paul wrote in his 2nd epistle to the Corinthians on the matter again:
2 Corinthians 2:8  Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.
9  For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
10  To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
11  Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

I think you have taken this verse much farther than its actual meaning. If your views are based upon this understanding of this one verse, I think they are wrong.

I know we all are reconciled by his death.

We are not saved by his death, but by his life.

This life is given via faith (by grace).  

If you hang onto the old belief, of life via the law; you will be turned over to satan for the destruction of this thinking process.  you will have come to the mount that burns with fire.  

This shamed nakedness imo, is what I read in Corinthians as destruction of the flesh and salvation of the spirit.  Destruction of the flesh, imo; is the wrath of God. 


Believers dont' have a flesh to be destroyed, as we are not in the flesh; but in the spirit if the spirit dwells in you.

Rom 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


That's the way I read it.  




 

[Zeek]

If we are saved by faith alone, then how can those whom have not believed here on earth be saved.

That is, if faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, then how shall anyone be saved by faith when they pass from this life that is the opportunity to be saved by faith alone, without seeing. For after they pass then they understand (those whom did not believe), by seeing, that they were wrong, this is not faith, but seeing and understanding.

How can one, seeing Jesus Christ, kneeling, and confessing his as Lord be said to have been saved by faith, if he did not believe while things were not yet seen?

imo,

I think one has to define what "saved" means.

All are not saved from the lake of fire, the destruction, the wrath of God.  Many go through the wide gait.  Only those who have been given faith and are faithful to the end will be saved from this wrath.  

But, the process is a change in covenants.  Old to New.  So the spirit is saved via destruction, as New is all there is, all there really ever was, just needed to have the veil burned away.

The very basics of "The Faith" are now being brought into question.



Ephesians 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

so what does "saved" mean to you??

It means only one thing according to the gospel I know.

Romans 5:9  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

well, i agree that not all are saved from his wrath;   

But all are reconciled.  To receive his reconciliation is LIFE.  Those who believe, have passed from death to life, and will never die.

Those who don't believe, will die in their sins. 

[arcticmonster2003]

Gal 5:22  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,


Gal 5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


fallen from grace=====>destruction, shame

change in covenants

law-------->NEW

Am I correct, that is have I understood you correctly, that you think some shall be saved by faith and some shall be "saved" by destruction?

Destruction does not fit my definition of "being saved". This sounds like a different gospel of "salvation".

Do you mean to tell me that when Paul was saying this:

1 Corinthians 5:5  To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

that he was implying that he was delivering the man, ultimately, to the lake of fire, and not to "satan for the destruction of the flesh"? I think Paul was delivering "such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh" as a chastisement, and not a permanent deliverance to Satan.

Paul wrote in his 2nd epistle to the Corinthians on the matter again:
2 Corinthians 2:8  Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.
9  For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
10  To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
11  Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

I think you have taken this verse much farther than its actual meaning. If your views are based upon this understanding of this one verse, I think they are wrong.

I think we all are reconciled by his death.

We are not saved by his death, but by his life.

This life is given via faith (by grace).  

If you hang onto the old belief, of life via the law; you will be turned over to satan for the destruction of this thinking process.  you will have come to the mount that burns with fire.  

This shamed nakedness imo, is what I read in Corinthians salvation of the spirit.  That's the way I read it.  




 

We who believe are reconciled, no doubt about that.

Colossians 1:21  And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

We are no longer alienated and enemies, as we all were.

But the fact remains that some are still alienated and enemies.
And it remains that some die in this state.
Thus, back to the main question, how do those whom die, unreconciled, be reconciled, by faith. For after death, they know for a fact, through seeing they were wrong, and faith is believing without seeing.

I ask, but I seem to understand what you say, you say that we are saved by faith, but they are "saved" by destruction. This is a different gospel.

We are saved from the wrath of God, by faith.

They (whom die in unbelief and in their sins) incur the wrath of God, this is not salvation, and to say otherwise in any way (even merely suggesting it) is just wrong.

The Gospel is that by grace we are saved, through faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour, from the wrath of God, also that we are not only saved from wrath but inherit really good things.

John 8:24  I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

[Zeek]

So reconciliation is via faith?? 

or is receiving reconcilation via faith??


I believe all are reconciled, but there is a process of "realizing" this.

[Zeek]

What does this verse mean to you??

Col 1:20  And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.


is the "all things" only believers??

[arcticmonster2003]

So reconciliation is via faith?? 

or is receiving reconcilation via faith??


I believe all are reconciled, but there is a process of "realizing" this.

We are all freely justified for salvation through Jesus Christ. We are justified to partake of his salvation. It is clear though that many do not want to, because they love their sin and this world more that they love God, they refuse to partake of his salvation. This is foolishness, due to the consequences, and yet there it is for all to see in the Word of God. God has not been silent, but has spoken.

Romans 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

But only God knows who truly believes in their heart.

[Zeek]

you and i aren't that far apart, in that I don't see all saved from wrath.  But where we differ, is that I do see the spirit saved via destruction (which to me is the wide gait); which I believe is the wrath of God.  It's for the destructiion of the flesh,which I don't see believers as having (now); as we are not in the flesh if the Spirit dwells in us. 

Mat 7:13  Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

is see the destruction for the purpose of spirit saved in Day of Lord.

and u think that this is out of context.




I beleive that in HIM we move, live and have our being.   I believe what keeps us from seeing that, is the flesh, the carnal mind.  The carnal mind must be burned away, and this to me is the significance of every knee bowing, to the Glory of HIM. 

[arcticmonster2003]

What does this verse mean to you??

Col 1:20  And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.


is the "all things" only believers??

It says what it says, and it goes not without warning in the same chapter:

The IFs and THENs are always a part of God's word through and through.

Colossians 1:23  If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Colossians 1:28  Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Jesus Christ, whom is eternal, whom underwent punishment for us. Since he is eternal, the punishment he underwent payed the price of our eternal punishment. For those whom don't accept this gift, they shall pay the price with their own eternal punishment.

[Zeek]

I hear ya, and understand where u are coming from.  For me, LOVE wins.   

What do you think Christ (head and body's) purpose is for?? 

We are a priesthood.  What does a priesthood do?? 

What are we baptized into Christ's death for?? 


Blessing??

[arcticmonster2003]

you and i aren't that far apart, in that I don't see all saved from wrath.  But where we differ, is that I do see the spirit saved via destruction (which to me is the wide gait); which I believe is the wrath of God.  It's for the destructiion of the flesh,which I don't see believers as having (now); as we are not in the flesh if the Spirit dwells in us. 

Mat 7:13  Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

is see the destruction for the purpose of spirit saved in Day of Lord.

and u think that this is out of context.




I beleive that in HIM we move, live and have our being.   I believe what keeps us from seeing that, is the flesh, the carnal mind.  The carnal mind must be burned away, and this to me is the significance of every knee bowing, to the Glory of HIM. 

You keep talking abou this thing Paul said about that one mans spirit (which I think you have expounded beyond its meaning)

Zeek, they are going to lose their soul to eternal torment, the eternal wrath of God.

The salvation of the Gospel is the salvation of the SOUL from the wrath of God.

Your soul is YOU. It is YOU whom are or are not saved from the wrath of God.

1 Peter 1:9  Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

[Zeek]

you and i aren't that far apart, in that I don't see all saved from wrath.  But where we differ, is that I do see the spirit saved via destruction (which to me is the wide gait); which I believe is the wrath of God.  It's for the destructiion of the flesh,which I don't see believers as having (now); as we are not in the flesh if the Spirit dwells in us. 

Mat 7:13  Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

is see the destruction for the purpose of spirit saved in Day of Lord.

and u think that this is out of context.




I beleive that in HIM we move, live and have our being.   I believe what keeps us from seeing that, is the flesh, the carnal mind.  The carnal mind must be burned away, and this to me is the significance of every knee bowing, to the Glory of HIM. 

You keep talking abou this thing Paul said about that one mans spirit (which I think you have expounded beyond its meaning)

Zeek, they are going to lose their soul to eternal torment, the eternal wrath of God.

The salvation of the Gospel is the salvation of the SOUL.

Your soul is YOU.

1 Peter 1:9  Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

I believe the soul/identity attached to the law (carnal mind) is headed for eternal shame.  But there is a spirit within man that can testify with HIS spirit that we are children of God.  IMO, this is the same spirit saved in the end/destruction.