satan is saved?

[eaglesway]

Well Micah, this is all I am trying to say- and it is my opinion, and as I see it you are expressing yours....you are not expressing"ultimate truth" and neither am I  okay ?:o)

It is, IMO, a statement out of context with everything that is written on the adversary to advocate that he is a willing servant of God, as was originally posited at the beginning of this. That point is all I ever was resonding to. To make my response a general discussion of God's sovereignity was not and still is not my intention.

I never said God does not use the adversary or that God is not in control of all things ultimately. I believe the adversary has his own purpose, and that God is way ahead of him in using it for many things and limiting it at many points. However, evil, IMO, from the standpoint of its conception through lust, does not originate with God, since God cannot be tempted with sin, nor does He tempt any man.

The mystery of iniquity is a great discussion. I enjoy discussing thiongs. i am not really interested in debating anything outside of myy original point which was- the adversary is not "on God's team".

[micah7:9]

Should I agree with you, and there was a time I did, When you state, " I believe the adversary has his own purpose, and that God is way ahead of him in using it for many things and limiting it at many points. However, evil, IMO, from the standpoint of its conception through lust, does not originate with God, since God cannot be tempted with sin, nor does He tempt any man."

"...has his own purpose, " Where or from who, did that purpose come from?
"....God is way ahead of him in using it for many things and limiting it at many points. " Do you mean that the adversary is not limited on some points? That on some points the adversary is on his own?

".... However, evil, IMO, from the standpoint of its conception through lust..." Where or how did lust get conceived?
And "....[lust]does not originate with God,..." then I am to understand Paul and John did not mean what they wrote here...
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


This is true, "The mystery of iniquity is a great discussion. I enjoy discussing thiongs. i am not really interested in debating anything outside of myy original point which was- the adversary is not "on God's team".
And I hope I have removed the thought of a servant and would rather not use the word team. I believe the mystery of iniquity has it's understanding from point "A" that EVERYTHING-ALL comes out from God. That my friend, right now, is the only part of the mystery of iniquity that I have been given to understand, and that only leaves me more in awe of the Father of lights.
The God and Creator takes responsibility for His work(s) Isa 55:8  For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9  For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Jer 29:11  For I have known the thoughts that I am thinking towards you--an affirmation of Jehovah; thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give to you posterity and hope.

:HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[Lazarus Short]

Somehow, the discussion above put me in mind of that song/hymn, which I remember being sung by Tennessee Ernie Ford:

Farther along, we'll know all about it
Farther along, we'll understand why

[micah7:9]

Keep singing! :banana: :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

[reFORMer]

Somehow, the discussion above put me in mind of that song/hymn, which I remember being sung by Tennessee Ernie Ford:

Farther along, we'll know all about it
Farther along, we'll understand why

Cheer up my brother, live in the sunshine     (or, is it, "walk" in the sunshine?)
Farther along, we understand why

[dajomaco]

If you stare at a bright light you can't see darkness.
If you turn and face away from the light you still can't see darkness.
You have to walk away from the light far enough to see darkness.
God is light in him is no darkness.
God is LOVE in him is no fear.
With out fear there is no evil.

when the light shines were does the darkness go.
How can the darkness come back .

If any one can tell me how darkness can be changed so that
darkness can be shown by light.

I will tell you how Satan can be redeemed.   

[micah7:9]

Perhaps darkness is light turned to it's least? 
17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him." Col.1:17 CLV)

[ded2daworld]

Didja ever notice? Go into a pitch black room and even the tiny light from your cellphone lights it up.
Go into a brightly lit room and you can't bring in any device to shine some darkness in there. :dontknow:

[omantodd2000]

IMO there is way too much speculation about Lucifer/Satan/the adversary that goes on based on a few obscure prophetic verses of scripture that honest minds can read differently. At present we know that whoever he ever was, now he is the father of lies, author of confusion, murderer, ruler of the hosts of wickedness, spirit that works in the sons of disobedience, etc.

I personally have never seen any scripture that indicates that the adversary evr led Jesus. I agree with Micah tho, one thing we know is that eventually all things will be reconciled, and Colossians pretty clearly defines that as everything He created, everything He is over, everything he came before.....hey, that's evryone and everything!

For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation

Amen. As for Jesus being led by the adversary, nope...Mat 4:1  Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

He was lead into the wilderness by the spirit and tempted by the adversary that was himself, his own desires,that of course he overcame. There is nothing that complicated about this that honest minds are going to misinterpret. He is in the wilderness the whole time. But then he is on top of the temple, then he is on a very high mountain where he can see the kingdom of the world. That mountain does of course does not exist, there is no such thing except in ones own mind. He also could not be on the temple because as we know he is in the wilderness being tempted. This is backed up by scripture, we are only tempted by our own evil desires, nothing else. Why make simple things overly complicated?

[Molly]

He was lead into the wilderness by the spirit and tempted by the adversary that was himself, his own desires,that of course he overcame. There is nothing that complicated about this that honest minds are going to misinterpret. He is in the wilderness the whole time. But then he is on top of the temple, then he is on a very high mountain where he can see the kingdom of the world. That mountain does of course does not exist, there is no such thing except in ones own mind. He also could not be on the temple because as we know he is in the wilderness being tempted. This is backed up by scripture, we are only tempted by our own evil desires, nothing else. Why make simple things overly complicated?

Because it's not as simple as you are trying to make it?

Jesus did not have an evil bone in his body.  He was in flesh, so he could understand temptation, but he was not tempting himself.  Nor can I wrap my head around Jesus ever having any 'evil desires.'



I won't talk with you much longer, because the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me.

"I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;--John 14:30

[sheila]

...so...when the devil left Him and the angels come and attended Him...they were of Jesus mind?

  you can't have it both ways.  and Jesus cast out evil spirits..legion even..but they were just in the mind of the people?

  the boy that was thrown into the fire or water.. the evil spirit trying to kill him..was just that little boys own evil desire?

   and Jesus lied..when He openly cast them out..and the disciples too. and when Jesus said, do not rejoice

  that the evil spirits are subject to you..but that your names are written in heaven...the evil spirits were just

the disciples own evil desires.?

   Matt 17;18  Jesus rebuked the demon and it come out of that boy[the evil desire of his flesh to kill him]

   so Jesus and the disciples when they went about casting these evil desires of the peoples flesh

out of them..and calling them unclean spirits,evil spirits and demons were just 'joshin' the people?

  Is that what you are saying?

     and when God testified in the covenant curses for disobediance that He would sendir evil spirits

to possess the children..He wasnot speaking truth either?  at the mouth of two or three wittnesses let

every matter be established....Jesus,God..and the disciples testify

   the evil desire in one man's flesh said' I know who you are Jesus ,what do you want with me"....


   sorry, I reject this doctrine of yours.

 

[Molly]

Sheila,  :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

IMO there is way too much speculation about Lucifer/Satan/the adversary that goes on based on a few obscure prophetic verses of scripture that honest minds can read differently. At present we know that whoever he ever was, now he is the father of lies, author of confusion, murderer, ruler of the hosts of wickedness, spirit that works in the sons of disobedience, etc.

I personally have never seen any scripture that indicates that the adversary evr led Jesus. I agree with Micah tho, one thing we know is that eventually all things will be reconciled, and Colossians pretty clearly defines that as everything He created, everything He is over, everything he came before.....hey, that's evryone and everything!

For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation

Amen. As for Jesus being led by the adversary, nope...Mat 4:1  Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

He was lead into the wilderness by the spirit and tempted by the adversary that was himself, his own desires,that of course he overcame. There is nothing that complicated about this that honest minds are going to misinterpret. He is in the wilderness the whole time. But then he is on top of the temple, then he is on a very high mountain where he can see the kingdom of the world. That mountain does of course does not exist, there is no such thing except in ones own mind. He also could not be on the temple because as we know he is in the wilderness being tempted. This is backed up by scripture, we are only tempted by our own evil desires, nothing else. Why make simple things overly complicated?

The thing is omantodd, that is not what it says. You are interpreting that the adversary was his own desires. it says something different than that, so, it can be read either way- I am not ruling out your interpretation, but there is no way that it is as obvious and undeniable as you make it seem. I need no complication- I just read it as it was written.

Jesus said unto him(aoutos), It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
(Mat 4:7-11)


him  Gr. autos  Strong's: self, as used (in all persons, genders, numbers) to distinguish a person or thing from or contrast it with another, or to give him (it) emphatic prominence-

In other words to establish a distinction between the one speaking(Jesus) and the one spoken to(Satan)

The interpretation that all references to Satan or diablos the adversary are mystically speaking of our lower self is not a problem for me- but it is by no means such a clear definition that an honest mind must see it as such. For me, it is a further stretch than just reading the narrative as it is written and adding no interpretation to it.

[omantodd2000]

He was lead into the wilderness by the spirit and tempted by the adversary that was himself, his own desires,that of course he overcame. There is nothing that complicated about this that honest minds are going to misinterpret. He is in the wilderness the whole time. But then he is on top of the temple, then he is on a very high mountain where he can see the kingdom of the world. That mountain does of course does not exist, there is no such thing except in ones own mind. He also could not be on the temple because as we know he is in the wilderness being tempted. This is backed up by scripture, we are only tempted by our own evil desires, nothing else. Why make simple things overly complicated?

Because it's not as simple as you are trying to make it?

Jesus did not have an evil bone in his body.  He was in flesh, so he could understand temptation, but he was not tempting himself.  Nor can I wrap my head around Jesus ever having any 'evil desires.'



I won't talk with you much longer, because the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me.

"I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;--John 14:30

Jesus was a man just like we are, he had desires the same as we do "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin." How are we tempted? Is it by a literal satan, no, it is by our own desires as the bible says.

[eaglesway]

You use the words, "As the bible says" as if your position is all the bible says on the subject, but it says much more than that. That is why my point is to not limit the "truth" to your "interpretation", when there are verses than can be read, legitimately, another way.

It is also the reason why this is a discussion blog, not a "declaration blog" where people stand up and say "this is how it is and anyone who doesn't see it the way I do is over-complicating things".

[Molly]

How are we tempted? Is it by a literal satan, no, it is by our own desires as the bible says.

So you think Jesus really wanted to jump off the pinnacle to test God himself?  To see if God would send his angels to save him?

How was that going to work when by his own admission Jesus could snap his fingers and call up ten legions of angels himself?  It's not like he would have to rely on anyone but himself to call up angels.

No, I think Jesus was telling Satan,  'I'm God.  Stop testing me.'

He's putting Satan in his place.



9 The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down from here. 10 For it is written:

"'He will command his angels concerning you to guard you carefully;

they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'"

Jesus answered, "It says: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

13 When the devil had finished all this tempting, he left him until an opportune time.

--Luke 4

[eaglesway]

HeHe..... I think Jesus was saying "I only do those things which I hear from my Father, God, and I will not put Him to a foolish test".

I am sure all three views have an element of the whole truth.

[omantodd2000]

Eaglesway,Satan does not always mean our lower self or desires of the flesh. It is an adversary and can mean anything that is an adversary depending on the context of the verse it is in. Sometimes it is the flesh, Pharisees,romans,or even an angel of God that stood as an adversary to Balaam. One thing it is never is a fallen angel or the mythical creature that people associate him with. I am sorry if you find me to bold on the topic declaring what it means, I only do this because I have studied this for years. I am not going to debate you on it, you are free to disagree with me on any or all points I have made. Just take them as my opinion on the topic and study it for yourself and draw your own conclusions. I would never want anyone to take anything I say as fact and not look it up for themselves.

[Molly]

When Satan enters Judas at the last supper, Jesus shows his pre-eminence over Satan by giving Satan an order--


"Do quickly what you are going to do!"

--John 13:27

[ded2daworld]

oman, it is not a matter of being too bold to declare. It is stating as absolute fact rather than your opinion. You have studied for years I'm sure. Many of us have studied a subject for years and then found after years of study - our conclusions had been wrong. If you stay with just the instances in which the Bible mentions Satan, you will find some seeming contradictions.

I've read books from cults that will take 40 or 50 or 100 pages to "explain" one verse but what they are really doing is trying to convince others of a pet theory. I'm not saying there is anying wrong with this but IMO with the Bible, Occams Razor, (The simplest and most straightforward) reading is what is most likely true.

One more thing, Has this "special knowledge" of Satan helped you be a better, more caring, more loving person? Or does it make you feel somewhat superior for knowing more than others on a particular subject.

E.G. I don't care what Catholics say about Mary. She was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus our lord and that's about all is mentioned about her. Why? Because she is a very small part of what it is important to know. If you take the Catholic view that she is the "Queen of heaven" The "Mother of God" and that SHE was "born of a virgin" herself, the scant mention she has is blown way out of proportion and cannot be backed biblically.

[micah7:9]

He was lead into the wilderness by the spirit and tempted by the adversary that was himself, his own desires,that of course he overcame. There is nothing that complicated about this that honest minds are going to misinterpret. He is in the wilderness the whole time. But then he is on top of the temple, then he is on a very high mountain where he can see the kingdom of the world. That mountain does of course does not exist, there is no such thing except in ones own mind. He also could not be on the temple because as we know he is in the wilderness being tempted. This is backed up by scripture, we are only tempted by our own evil desires, nothing else. Why make simple things overly complicated?

Because it's not as simple as you are trying to make it?

Jesus did not have an evil bone in his body.  He was in flesh, so he could understand temptation, but he was not tempting himself.  Nor can I wrap my head around Jesus ever having any 'evil desires.'



I won't talk with you much longer, because the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me.

"I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;--John 14:30

:dsunny:

[micah7:9]

...so...when the devil left Him and the angels come and attended Him...they were of Jesus mind?

  you can't have it both ways.  and Jesus cast out evil spirits..legion even..but they were just in the mind of the people?

  the boy that was thrown into the fire or water.. the evil spirit trying to kill him..was just that little boys own evil desire?

   and Jesus lied..when He openly cast them out..and the disciples too. and when Jesus said, do not rejoice

  that the evil spirits are subject to you..but that your names are written in heaven...the evil spirits were just

the disciples own evil desires.?

   Matt 17;18  Jesus rebuked the demon and it come out of that boy[the evil desire of his flesh to kill him]

   so Jesus and the disciples when they went about casting these evil desires of the peoples flesh

out of them..and calling them unclean spirits,evil spirits and demons were just 'joshin' the people?

  Is that what you are saying?

     and when God testified in the covenant curses for disobediance that He would sendir evil spirits

to possess the children..He wasnot speaking truth either?  at the mouth of two or three wittnesses let

every matter be established....Jesus,God..and the disciples testify

   the evil desire in one man's flesh said' I know who you are Jesus ,what do you want with me"....


   sorry, I reject this doctrine of yours.

:dsunny:

[micah7:9]

He was lead into the wilderness by the spirit and tempted by the adversary that was himself, his own desires,that of course he overcame. There is nothing that complicated about this that honest minds are going to misinterpret. He is in the wilderness the whole time. But then he is on top of the temple, then he is on a very high mountain where he can see the kingdom of the world. That mountain does of course does not exist, there is no such thing except in ones own mind. He also could not be on the temple because as we know he is in the wilderness being tempted. This is backed up by scripture, we are only tempted by our own evil desires, nothing else. Why make simple things overly complicated?

Because it's not as simple as you are trying to make it?

Jesus did not have an evil bone in his body.  He was in flesh, so he could understand temptation, but he was not tempting himself.  Nor can I wrap my head around Jesus ever having any 'evil desires.'



I won't talk with you much longer, because the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me.

"I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;--John 14:30

Jesus was a man just like we are, he had desires the same as we do "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin." How are we tempted? Is it by a literal satan, no, it is by our own desires as the bible says.

"Jesus was a man just like we are,..."

Jesus was NOT a man like we are, if that were true Jesus could not be the Savior of the world. We have a carnal mind, Jesus did not have a carnal mind. Mat 4:10  Then saith Jesus unto him.....
I have not been able to get my thinking and reasoning around the adversary[satan] being a "him" and I believe translators, as well as ourselves, cannot identify the opponent. For me the adversary is a created spirit, with fearful power with the one, sole purpose to confuse the re-generated new creature from yielding to the mind of Christ and maturing into the new man. I read Mat. 4:10 Then saith Jesus, get hence adversary, for it is written, worship the Lord God, and him only shalt be served. At least that is how I read. For me personally, leaving out or giving recognition and identification to the adversary is strengthening for me. The adversary is very real and is seeking to devour, but Jesus, IS I AM.

[ded2daworld]

IMO, Jesus was different from us in the sense that he did not inherit sinful blood as a descendant from Adam but untainted blood directly from the Holy Spirit impregnating Mary. That is why the Blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. In Adam,and his sinful blood, we all die.
In Jesus, we are washed clean in his blood and given Life.

[sheila]

yeah..the life is in the blood..and Jesus said that God had granted Him to have life in Himself...

and we were told..'ye have no life in yourself" for when sin entered.

.we become as blood of a dead man[all in Adam died]

  for this reason..we must remain in the vines..and can do nothing of ourselves..and are grafted in

to the root of life..that we may LIVE BEFORE HIM

  for the spirit of the prince of this world/air is dead and brings forth dead works/vanity