It Will Cost You Everything

[PaoloNuevo]

Travis, I agree with everything Jesus said in Luke 14,

one of the great ironies is that to truly save one's life is to first lose it for the sake of the gospel.

But that verse does NOT teach eternal damnation in any way.  What do you have to say about the Scriptures I addressed to you in this post:

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/it_will_cost_you_everything_9107.msg113146.html#msg113146

God himself made peace through Jesus Christ:

Colossians 1:20 (New International Version, ©2010)

20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

It's just that in this age, not all have come to the knowledge of truth... but it does not change the fact that God will have all men saved eventually, the testimony to be given in due time. (1 Tim. 2: 1 - 6, KJV).

Luke 13:28-35 (New International Version, ©2010)

   28 "There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last."
Jesus' Sorrow for Jerusalem
31 At that time some Pharisees came to Jesus and said to him, "Leave this place and go somewhere else. Herod wants to kill you."

32 He replied, "Go tell that fox, 'I will keep on driving out demons and healing people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.' 33 In any case, I must press on today and tomorrow and the next day—for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!

   34 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 35 Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'

And:

Matthew 5:24-26 (New International Version, ©2010)

24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.

   25 "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.


I am sure myself and others have tried to explain to you what it means to understand Matthew 25: 46

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/it_will_cost_you_everything_9107.msg113146.html#msg113146

Kindly check my reply in that post, which is just several posts above...., (which I'm sure you've heard from others)... And I am praying that you will reconsider your position. So you may truly grasp the truth that God is love. (1 John 4: 8). And we must love others and draw others to Him at first by telling them how God loved us first by sending His Son to die for us. (1 John 4: 14) ... And them admonishing and building them up in truth. (John 17: 17, 2 Tim 3: 16 - 17).

:bigGrin:

[Travis]

My KJV Bible contains the doctrine of everlasting punishment.


Matthew 25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2 Thessalonians 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Travis, I agree with everything Jesus said in Luke 14,

one of the great ironies is that to truly save one's life is to first lose it for the sake of the gospel.

But that verse does NOT teach eternal damnation in any way.  What do you have to say about the Scriptures I addressed to you in this post:

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/it_will_cost_you_everything_9107.msg113146.html#msg113146

God himself made peace through Jesus Christ:

Colossians 1:20 (New International Version, ©2010)

20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

It's just that in this age, not all have come to the knowledge of truth... but it does not change the fact that God will have all men saved eventually, the testimony to be given in due time. (1 Tim. 2: 1 - 6, KJV).

Luke 13:28-35 (New International Version, ©2010)

   28 "There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last."
Jesus' Sorrow for Jerusalem
31 At that time some Pharisees came to Jesus and said to him, "Leave this place and go somewhere else. Herod wants to kill you."

32 He replied, "Go tell that fox, 'I will keep on driving out demons and healing people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.' 33 In any case, I must press on today and tomorrow and the next day—for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!

   34 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 35 Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'

And:

Matthew 5:24-26 (New International Version, ©2010)

24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.

   25 "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.


I am sure myself and others have tried to explain to you what it means to understand Matthew 25: 46

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/it_will_cost_you_everything_9107.msg113146.html#msg113146

Kindly check my reply in that post, which is just several posts above...., (which I'm sure you've heard from others)... And I am praying that you will reconsider your position. So you may truly grasp the truth that God is love. (1 John 4: 8). And we must love others and draw others to Him at first by telling them how God loved us first by sending His Son to die for us. (1 John 4: 14) ... And them admonishing and building them up in truth. (John 17: 17, 2 Tim 3: 16 - 17).

:bigGrin:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: What you lack here Travis, is what every other literalist lacks, and that is the understanding that God has different aspects to His nature and levels of dealing with man (whose image and likeness we were made in).

For that reason He speaks to us, and provides a framework to deal with us that way, as we too are a triune being/fractional being composed of spirit, soul, and body, which also also aligns with the 3 main feasts (or meetings of man with God), of 1)Passover, 2)Pentecost, and 3)Tabernacles.

And so what you have quoted of Luke 14 here, applies as follows.....

Luke 14:25  And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
26  If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27  And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

28  For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
29  Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
30  Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. 1(PASSOVER/kingdoms of the earth, carnal understanding/outer court)

31  Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? 2(PENTECOST/kingdom of the heaven, beginning of the mind of Christ being made manifest,warfare realm/inner court)

32  Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace. 3(TABERNACLES/kingdom of God, making of twain, one new CREATION man, creating TRUE peace by the pulling down of the partition that is the veiled mind/Holy of Holies)

I don't know what denom or person you listened to, that threw you into the ditch (earthly fleshly understanding that swallows you whole like Jonah) off to the side on this the Sabbath day, but you need to seek His face that YOU might be spared (by not being left behind in the dust realm) and get yourself back on the way (following as a disciple of HIS), which is SPIRIT (truth) AND  LIFE. Blessings.....

[jabcat]

 :thumbsup: Card.

Brother Travis, are you aware of the many mistranslations and inconsistencies within the King James translation?  Also, do you believe the KJV is the only viable translation, or at least the best?

[shawn]

If I read about costs I think of payments.
Didn't Jesus payed in full?
Was His payment in some way coming short?

Jesus Christ taught about counting the cost, it is a Biblical teaching:

Luke 14:25  And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
26  If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27  And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
28  For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
29  Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
30  Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
31  Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
32  Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
33  So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
34  Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
35  It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

There is a cost to following Christ.  But, I assume you know that passage was hyperbole.  Much like plucking out your eye if it causes you to sin.  If this passage wasn't hyperbole then the Bible would be inconsistent because the Bible tells to love, not to hate.  Specifically Jesus said loving God and our neighbor to be the greatest of commandments.

This passage is saying nothing and no one can come before God.  He is to be our first love.  We have to be willing to lay down material things, dreams, goals, family at his feet and say these are yours God.  Do with me as you will.  If we are not willing to do so, we are not fit to serve.

This passage isn't about Jesus coming to send people to burn eternally.  This passage was about the attitude and mindset of a true servant of Christ.

[shawn]

In that case the video is not suited for this forum

The video is suitable for everyplace, as it is an appeal for unbelievers to meet Jesus Christ's terms of peace and it is also an exhortation for believers to examine themselves.

Examining oneself is a good practice.  I don't think we disagree about Jesus Christ's terms for peace and reconciliation.  You MUST believe in Jesus in order to be saved.  And with that comes a cost.  I doubt anyone here would disagree with that.  But, the Bible also speaks of every knee bowing, every tongue confessing he is Lord.  Combined with many other passage and some translational problems I can see the UR viewpoint.

What I do know is that even with traditional translations there is little support for the doctrine of burning people eternally.  Considering how unbelieveably horrible that thought is, you would think it would be screamed from the Bible if it were true.  You would think that would be mentioned in Genesis as one of the consequences of sin.  But, it isn't.  Death is mentioned.  But, no burning eternally in fire?  How do you reconcil that with a God who loves agape?  That doesn't bother you at all?  You are ok with friends and family burning eternally?  You will just smile and take joy at them burning forever?  You can reconcil finite sin being punished eternally?  If so, I would suggest you re-evaluate some of the passages on loving our neighbor as ourself.  Even if you believe in ET, it should bother you.  I wonder how that can be ok to anyone.

Combine the fact that eternally burning God's creation with the fact that Jesus claims victory and you have problems.  If the devil's goal is to seperate man from God, and 95%+ of creation is lost, burned eternally...how is that victory?  If the devil can incite the wrath of God enough to punish temporal sin, no matter how horrible with eternal punishment for most of creation, how can victory be claimed?  The Lake of Fire is called the second death for humans, not eternal torture...but mainstream Christianity has tweaked that into something it is not.

Combine the illogical nature of ET doctrine with significant lack of scriptural support and you can easily deduct it's not true.  Don't be afraid to ask questions.  Doubting man and his intentions is always worth some value.  Don't be afraid to explore.

Ask yourself one question, when standing before God on judgment day.  When we have to give an accounting of our actions and motives which would you rather defend...assuming both are wrong.  God who loves agape eternally burning his creation...and you being ok with it.  Or believing the blood of Christ is capable of saving everyone beyond the grave?  I know my choice.

[shawn]

My KJV Bible contains the doctrine of everlasting punishment.


Matthew 25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2 Thessalonians 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Travis, I agree with everything Jesus said in Luke 14,

one of the great ironies is that to truly save one's life is to first lose it for the sake of the gospel.

But that verse does NOT teach eternal damnation in any way.  What do you have to say about the Scriptures I addressed to you in this post:

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/it_will_cost_you_everything_9107.msg113146.html#msg113146

God himself made peace through Jesus Christ:

Colossians 1:20 (New International Version, ©2010)

20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

It's just that in this age, not all have come to the knowledge of truth... but it does not change the fact that God will have all men saved eventually, the testimony to be given in due time. (1 Tim. 2: 1 - 6, KJV).

Luke 13:28-35 (New International Version, ©2010)

   28 "There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last."
Jesus' Sorrow for Jerusalem
31 At that time some Pharisees came to Jesus and said to him, "Leave this place and go somewhere else. Herod wants to kill you."

32 He replied, "Go tell that fox, 'I will keep on driving out demons and healing people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.' 33 In any case, I must press on today and tomorrow and the next day—for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!

   34 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 35 Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'

And:

Matthew 5:24-26 (New International Version, ©2010)

24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.

   25 "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.


I am sure myself and others have tried to explain to you what it means to understand Matthew 25: 46

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/it_will_cost_you_everything_9107.msg113146.html#msg113146

Kindly check my reply in that post, which is just several posts above...., (which I'm sure you've heard from others)... And I am praying that you will reconsider your position. So you may truly grasp the truth that God is love. (1 John 4: 8). And we must love others and draw others to Him at first by telling them how God loved us first by sending His Son to die for us. (1 John 4: 14) ... And them admonishing and building them up in truth. (John 17: 17, 2 Tim 3: 16 - 17).

:bigGrin:

What makes you assume the KJV is the most accurate translation?  Your pastor told you so?  Grandma used it?  Seek and ye shall find. 

Just as one example the KJV has translated the word sheol (which means hell in no sense of the word) into hell.  It means grave.  Using that as your key, unlock the rest.  The KJV is filled with translational errors.

But, lets just assume for debate sake that the KJV is a 100% accurate representation/translation of God's word.  How many verses can the UR guys come up with that contradict that viewpoint, from the same translation?  Verses taken out of context are dangerous indeed (and in no way am I suggesting UR believers are doing that).  They lead to many misunderstandings.

Considering I don't believe in ET, but accept eternal death as a significant possibility and have hope in UR lets address it from that position.  Are those passages saying people are burned eternally?  Or are they saying, that nonbelievers will be destroyed?  Considering the vast amount of scripture supports destruction rather than eternally burning...including the Lake of Fire reference in Revelations the answer becomes clear.  You can easily deduct even with your KJV that the Bible in that translation supports eternally destroyed...which is an eternal seperation...an eternal punishment.

If you are willing to step outside your comfort zone and question the KJV translation then many doors open up to you...including the belief in UR.

[WhiteWings]

Payed to the last cent: http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d030601.htm
Read it!

[Travis]

The KJV is an excellent and outstanding english translation. I highly encourage all english speakers to read the KJV Bible. Though the english may be older, yet I understand the scriptures much better than when I used to read a modern version (NASB). I didn't start out reading the KJV Bible, but the NASB, and it is hard to switch versions when you become accustomed to a version, however, the switch was certainly good and I consider it to be one of most helpful things that has happened to me.

Luke 14 is sound doctrine. It is challenging though, especially if one has not yielded to Jesus Christ in the manner the teaching requires.

[shawn]

The KJV is an excellent and outstanding english translation. I highly encourage all english speakers to read the KJV Bible. Though the english may be older, yet I understand the scriptures much better than when I used to read a modern version (NASB). I didn't start out reading the KJV Bible, but the NASB, and it is hard to switch versions when you become accustomed to a version, however, the switch was certainly good and I consider it to be one of most helpful things that has happened to me.

Luke 14 is sound doctrine. It is challenging though, especially if one has not yielded to Jesus Christ in the manner the teaching requires.

I get that you believe that about the KJV.  But, why do you believe that?  Because it's the oldest?  Because your pastor says so?  If we can prove to you that there are MANY translational errors (prove without any reasonable doubt) would you accept that you may be misinformed?  If so, how awful is it to believe in a doctrine that would make God into something he isn't?

Luke 14 is certainly sound doctrine.  It is also challenging.  And I agree not everyone is willing to yield to it, as the cost may be too high.  Not everyone is willing to put God first, nor willing to be in complete obedience.  Not everyone is willing to break outside the comfort zone of their church, man's interpretations of scripture and truly seek the face of God.  Very few are willing to ask the tough questions for fear of being in danger of burning eternally.

Don't just accept what man says to you.  IMO, that is sloth.  It is lazy and God didn't call us to be lazy in our faith.  We are to test things for validity and truth.  We are to ask the Holy Spirit to reveal to us rather than fear to bind us.

Let me ask you a question.  Does the doctrine of burning creation for eternity ring true to you?  Does it feel right in your spirit?  Do you accept it because you fear you will go to hell if you don't and are wrong?  Do you accept it because of interpretations of men, or because you have fully explored scriptures?

Again, don't be afraid to search, question and seek the face of God.  I believe he wants to reveal his true nature to you.

[Beloved Servant]

... and through you.

[jabcat]

Many good points Shawn.  This one especially struck me.   :thumbsup:

Combine the fact that eternally burning God's creation with the fact that Jesus claims victory and you have problems.

[Travis]

I believe that if you or others succeed in getting people to doubt the translation of the KJV, that you are getting them to take a big step, in the wrong direction.

I believe that I was led to the KJV by God, and after I started seeing the differences between the KJV and the NASB I also did much reasearch in the matter an have come to the conclusion that the KJV is by far the best english translation. I also believe that God has led many others to the KJV as well.

You had said:

If you are willing to step outside your comfort zone and question the KJV translation then many doors open up to you

While I do agree that if someone puts aside the KJV it could open many doors to them, however, as I said, in the wrong direction. I believe that if someone puts aside the KJV it could begin to open many doors of unsound doctrine to them.

In any case, I did step outside of my comfort zone, I read the NASB since I was a little boy, and only switched to the KJV in the last couple of years, and I am very happy that I did so, and I believe that God led me to the KJV. I also encourage others to switch to the KJV.

The KJV is an excellent and outstanding english translation. I highly encourage all english speakers to read the KJV Bible. Though the english may be older, yet I understand the scriptures much better than when I used to read a modern version (NASB). I didn't start out reading the KJV Bible, but the NASB, and it is hard to switch versions when you become accustomed to a version, however, the switch was certainly good and I consider it to be one of most helpful things that has happened to me.

Luke 14 is sound doctrine. It is challenging though, especially if one has not yielded to Jesus Christ in the manner the teaching requires.

I get that you believe that about the KJV.  But, why do you believe that?  Because it's the oldest?  Because your pastor says so?  If we can prove to you that there are MANY translational errors (prove without any reasonable doubt) would you accept that you may be misinformed?  If so, how awful is it to believe in a doctrine that would make God into something he isn't?

Luke 14 is certainly sound doctrine.  It is also challenging.  And I agree not everyone is willing to yield to it, as the cost may be too high.  Not everyone is willing to put God first, nor willing to be in complete obedience.  Not everyone is willing to break outside the comfort zone of their church, man's interpretations of scripture and truly seek the face of God.  Very few are willing to ask the tough questions for fear of being in danger of burning eternally.

Don't just accept what man says to you.  IMO, that is sloth.  It is lazy and God didn't call us to be lazy in our faith.  We are to test things for validity and truth.  We are to ask the Holy Spirit to reveal to us rather than fear to bind us.

Let me ask you a question.  Does the doctrine of burning creation for eternity ring true to you?  Does it feel right in your spirit?  Do you accept it because you fear you will go to hell if you don't and are wrong?  Do you accept it because of interpretations of men, or because you have fully explored scriptures?

Again, don't be afraid to search, question and seek the face of God.  I believe he wants to reveal his true nature to you.

[shawn]

I believe that if you or others succeed in getting people to doubt the translation of the KJV, that you are getting them to take a big step, in the wrong direction.

I believe that I was led to the KJV by God, and after I started seeing the differences between the KJV and the NASB I also did much reasearch in the matter an have come to the conclusion that the KJV is by far the best english translation. I also believe that God has led many others to the KJV as well.

You had said:

If you are willing to step outside your comfort zone and question the KJV translation then many doors open up to you

While I do agree that if someone puts aside the KJV it could open many doors to them, however, as I said, in the wrong direction. I believe that if someone puts aside the KJV it could begin to open many doors of unsound doctrine to them.

In any case, I did step outside of my comfort zone, I read the NASB since I was a little boy, and only switched to the KJV in the last couple of years, and I am very happy that I did so, and I believe that God led me to the KJV. I also encourage others to switch to the KJV.

The KJV is an excellent and outstanding english translation. I highly encourage all english speakers to read the KJV Bible. Though the english may be older, yet I understand the scriptures much better than when I used to read a modern version (NASB). I didn't start out reading the KJV Bible, but the NASB, and it is hard to switch versions when you become accustomed to a version, however, the switch was certainly good and I consider it to be one of most helpful things that has happened to me.

Luke 14 is sound doctrine. It is challenging though, especially if one has not yielded to Jesus Christ in the manner the teaching requires.

I get that you believe that about the KJV.  But, why do you believe that?  Because it's the oldest?  Because your pastor says so?  If we can prove to you that there are MANY translational errors (prove without any reasonable doubt) would you accept that you may be misinformed?  If so, how awful is it to believe in a doctrine that would make God into something he isn't?

Luke 14 is certainly sound doctrine.  It is also challenging.  And I agree not everyone is willing to yield to it, as the cost may be too high.  Not everyone is willing to put God first, nor willing to be in complete obedience.  Not everyone is willing to break outside the comfort zone of their church, man's interpretations of scripture and truly seek the face of God.  Very few are willing to ask the tough questions for fear of being in danger of burning eternally.

Don't just accept what man says to you.  IMO, that is sloth.  It is lazy and God didn't call us to be lazy in our faith.  We are to test things for validity and truth.  We are to ask the Holy Spirit to reveal to us rather than fear to bind us.

Let me ask you a question.  Does the doctrine of burning creation for eternity ring true to you?  Does it feel right in your spirit?  Do you accept it because you fear you will go to hell if you don't and are wrong?  Do you accept it because of interpretations of men, or because you have fully explored scriptures?

Again, don't be afraid to search, question and seek the face of God.  I believe he wants to reveal his true nature to you.

Since you have researched the KJV in depth.  May I ask your opinion on something?  Why does the KJV translate the hebrew word for grave (sheol) into hell?  Is it that the proper translation for sheol is indeed hell?  If so, could you please give me a reference so I can research myself?  If that word is indeed incorrect, how many more are like that?  I respect that you believe what you believe.  I can even understand why you are hesitant to think outside of mainstream interpretations.  It's a scarey leap.  With that said, how do you know correct from incorrect if you have not fully explored?

I understand you feel like you were led to the KJV by God.  I get that.  What I can say is I believe I was led to many ET preaching churches, and some benefited my walk.  I also feel like God led me to places like this one.  I don't always believe our journey constitutes truth in the sense of doctrine.  I believe the journey leads us to maturity.  I believe MANY of us including myself have some incorrect interpretations of scriptures.  Does that mean these individuals will burn in hell?

Many of my questions to you were left unanswered.  I would be curious as to your responses to them.

Last word, what are these wrong doors that you speak of?  Do you believe different translations will lead others to not place their faith in Christ?  I don't see anything like that.  Do you believe that belief in eternal torture is the path to salvation?  Do you believe one can serve Christ and not believe that?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I believe I was led to the KJV intially too, but not so much because it was the "best" translation, but because it was the easiest (at the time) for me to access the original text via my Strong's. We're talking almost 25 years ago here, so "laymen" resources available (that I knew about) were limited to me. But I still depended on the Spirit to teach me, once I realized He would, and that makes all the difference, as well. Blessings....

[Travis]

Since you have researched the KJV in depth.  May I ask your opinion on something?  Why does the KJV translate the hebrew word for grave (sheol) into hell?  Is it that the proper translation for sheol is indeed hell?  If so, could you please give me a reference so I can research myself?  If that word is indeed incorrect, how many more are like that?  I respect that you believe what you believe.  I can even understand why you are hesitant to think outside of mainstream interpretations.  It's a scarey leap.  With that said, how do you know correct from incorrect if you have not fully explored?

I understand you feel like you were led to the KJV by God.  I get that.  What I can say is I believe I was led to many ET preaching churches, and some benefited my walk.  I also feel like God led me to places like this one.  I don't always believe our journey constitutes truth in the sense of doctrine.  I believe the journey leads us to maturity.  I believe MANY of us including myself have some incorrect interpretations of scriptures.  Does that mean these individuals will burn in hell?

Many of my questions to you were left unanswered.  I would be curious as to your responses to them.

Last word, what are these wrong doors that you speak of?  Do you believe different translations will lead others to not place their faith in Christ?  I don't see anything like that.  Do you believe that belief in eternal torture is the path to salvation?  Do you believe one can serve Christ and not believe that?

I know that you have asked questions that I haven't answered. I haven't really committed myself to answer all of the questions that I know threads like this will generate, as that could be very time consuming.  I posted some of my thoughts, other people posted some of their thoughts, such is the nature of discussion boards.

[shawn]

Since you have researched the KJV in depth.  May I ask your opinion on something?  Why does the KJV translate the hebrew word for grave (sheol) into hell?  Is it that the proper translation for sheol is indeed hell?  If so, could you please give me a reference so I can research myself?  If that word is indeed incorrect, how many more are like that?  I respect that you believe what you believe.  I can even understand why you are hesitant to think outside of mainstream interpretations.  It's a scarey leap.  With that said, how do you know correct from incorrect if you have not fully explored?

I understand you feel like you were led to the KJV by God.  I get that.  What I can say is I believe I was led to many ET preaching churches, and some benefited my walk.  I also feel like God led me to places like this one.  I don't always believe our journey constitutes truth in the sense of doctrine.  I believe the journey leads us to maturity.  I believe MANY of us including myself have some incorrect interpretations of scriptures.  Does that mean these individuals will burn in hell?

Many of my questions to you were left unanswered.  I would be curious as to your responses to them.

Last word, what are these wrong doors that you speak of?  Do you believe different translations will lead others to not place their faith in Christ?  I don't see anything like that.  Do you believe that belief in eternal torture is the path to salvation?  Do you believe one can serve Christ and not believe that?

I know that you have asked questions that I haven't answered. I haven't really committed myself to answer all of the questions that I know threads like this will generate, as that could be very time consuming.  I posted some of my thoughts, other people posted some of their thoughts, such is the nature of discussion boards.

Ok...just thought you might be avoiding the tougher questions.

[Beloved Servant]

I know that you have asked questions that I haven't answered. I haven't really committed myself to answer all of the questions that I know threads like this will generate, as that could be very time consuming.  I posted some of my thoughts, other people posted some of their thoughts, such is the nature of discussion boards.

Well then, it seems that you haven't considered the cost of this very thread that you named.
Yes, it is time consuming and that is the cost.

If you do not wish to spend the time discussing your posts and you knew that you would not commit yourself to do so, what is your true intention?

[Travis]

Well then, it seems that you haven't considered the cost of this very thread that you named.
Yes, it is time consuming and that is the cost.

If you do not wish to spend the time discussing your posts and you knew that you would not commit yourself to do so, what is your true intention?

I have spent time discussing my post, that doesn't mean I committed to answer every question that is asked. My intention was to present the video to people here, because I feel it is excellent. My reason for posting the video in this section is stated in the original post.

[Beloved Servant]

Why don't all people deserve an answer?

[WhiteWings]

The KJV is an excellent and outstanding english translation. I highly encourage all english speakers to read the KJV Bible.

So English speaking people have a higher chance to get saved because they can learn from the (nearly) perfect KJV?
Ignoring the (possible) biased translating the KJV team had huge problems they can't be blamed for.
Translation/linguistics is real hard. It's easy to look up words in a dictionary. But what if there is no dictionary?
What if the writing style of the Greek very different from what the translators ever have seen?
What if there were over a 1000 words they didn't knew what they meant?
I'm not bashing the KJV team I'm stating facts.
Long after the KJV 1611 (about a century ago)new documents were found. From those documents translators learned the measning of those 1000 words (they still don't know a few of them)
They also learned the Biblical Greek doesn't use the grammar rules of Classical Greek.
It's a bit like you trying to read a South African newspaper. It's English. But it will be problematic to understand.
So all those things (grammar, unknow words, bias) put together makes the KJV a flawed translation.
If you compare the KJV 1611 with the modern version like NKJV or KJV2000 you will notice that not only the language is modernized but for example many times hell is changed into grave.
KJV translator were just mortal men. They did the best they could with the limited knowledge (compared to today).
And once a Bible is mainstream it can't be changed much. Just like the pope will never preach a protestant message. Things will change a little over time but it always will stay in the main outlines of doctrine.
:2c:

[shawn]

The KJV is an excellent and outstanding english translation. I highly encourage all english speakers to read the KJV Bible.

So English speaking people have a higher chance to get saved because they can learn from the (nearly) perfect KJV?
Ignoring the (possible) biased translating the KJV team had huge problems they can't be blamed for.
Translation/linguistics is real hard. It's easy to look up words in a dictionary. But what if there is no dictionary?
What if the writing style of the Greek very different from what the translators ever have seen?
What if there were over a 1000 words they didn't knew what they meant?
I'm not bashing the KJV team I'm stating facts.
Long after the KJV 1611 (about a century ago)new documents were found. From those documents translators learned the measning of those 1000 words (they still don't know a few of them)
They also learned the Biblical Greek doesn't use the grammar rules of Classical Greek.
It's a bit like you trying to read a South African newspaper. It's English. But it will be problematic to understand.
So all those things (grammar, unknow words, bias) put together makes the KJV a flawed translation.
If you compare the KJV 1611 with the modern version like NKJV or KJV2000 you will notice that not only the language is modernized but for example many times hell is changed into grave.
KJV translator were just mortal men. They did the best they could with the limited knowledge (compared to today).
And once a Bible is mainstream it can't be changed much. Just like the pope will never preach a protestant message. Things will change a little over time but it always will stay in the main outlines of doctrine.
:2c:

Very good points.  Personally, I don't just stick to one translation.  I like to read from several, even though I still use the NIV for much of my studies. 

[thinktank]

I read somewher that back in 1611, the grave was called hell. I think many of the verse that talk about hell are talking about the grave .

There are some references to another world in sheol the abode of the dead and its difficult to distinguish between the bottomles pit and the grave because the word hell is used in place of 2  or 3 different Greek words, and it seems that samuels ghost was summoned from hell or the underworld, hell can mean the other greek word in samuels case. If you were samuel and were summoned from a fiery hell and whatever tortures you think appens there, would you come out and say "Why have you disturbed me"?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: No kidding..... :laughing7:

[WhiteWings]

You should look more closely at the text TT.
It was during a Sabbath day :laughing7:

Seriously, it's a strange quote no matter how you look about it.

Hell: People that are being roasted can't have normal conversations. Plus I think they like to get their mind of the daily affairs in hell.
Heaven: Is heaven really 'rest'? A rest from all kind of negativity of earth yes. But really rest like the classical view of people floating on clouds and doing nothing for ever. I hope there is some activity....
Sleep: When I die and go into a soul sleep and would be waken up by a witch my first words would be something like "It's real" and not not let me sleep a few more years. I woould like to stretch by leggs as bit. In my urn  :winkgrin: