Escape the wrath to come - those whom reject Jesus Christ and die in their sins will be eternally punished. This video expresses this in a powerful way and is an example of how the focus of Biblical Christianity differs from universalism.
It Will Cost You Everything
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JQOBMi4QS8
Punishment, yes... but everlasting? No
Those who could not yet be saved will go away into chastisement eonian (Matt 25: 46) ... Once again the "eonian" is an indefinite period.... Because could you correct someone as an end in itself? What is the end of correction?
Travis, please examine the Scriptures for yourself... http://www.scripture4all.org Check the interlinear Greek, and the word Jesus uses in Matt 25: 46 is Kolasis, coming from Kolazo which is to prune to make better...
Zechariah 13:9 (New King James Version)
9 I will bring the one-third through the fire,
Will refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them.
I will say, 'This is My people';
And each one will say, 'The LORD is my God.'"
Habakkuk 1:12 (New King James Version)
The Prophet's Second Question
12 Are You not from everlasting,
O LORD my God, my Holy One?
We shall not die.
O LORD, You have appointed them for judgment;
O Rock, You have marked them for correction.
Lamentations 3:31 (New King James Version)
31 For the Lord will not cast off forever.
Isaiah 45:22-24 (New King James Version)
22 " Look to Me, and be saved,
All you ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,
And shall not return,
That to Me every knee shall bow,
Every tongue shall take an oath.
24 He shall say,
' Surely in the LORD I have righteousness and strength.
To Him men shall come,
And all shall be ashamed
Who are incensed against Him.
Good post Paolo, amen. A sound, Biblically-based comment.
Travis, if you come back to even see this, the last several posts you've made appear that you're just popping in to post some unscripturally sound thread and don't come back to discuss it, consider others' views, etc.
Are you interested in any further discussion, or are your plans to continue dropping these threads in with no further "give-and-take"? If you plan to discuss things in an interactive manner within forum guidelines, you're welcome to stay. Otherwise, spamming, trolling, and the consequences of a resultant ban are addressed in the Admin Section under "What You May Not Do".
I will PM you as well since I don't know if you're even coming back to check these threads you're starting. I do know the last one you started you weren't active again on the boards for quite awhile - possibly not until today when you started this one? We'll need to do it a little different than that, brother. :bigGrin: (I don't know if you judge me as not being a brother, but if you're saved, I consider you one.)
Thanks, James.
P.S. How far have you truly gone away from a Biblical understanding of Christian Ultimate Reconciliation, aka, The Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ? Unless I'm mistaken, what you just posted appears to be extreme judgmentalism of even other ET'ers who are viewed as not lining up with the authors' prescribed version of their particular views. :dontknow: :bsad:
Nathan posted this in an earlier thread. I read it tonight and liked how it applied to this discussion.
"As to the original question that started the thread . . .universal reconciliation of any kind is not a free pass. It never has been. But it's not about hell at all. The church has inflated it into being much about hell and eternal damnation. But the true purpose of Jesus coming here was prophecied in Isaiah and Jesus himself proclaimed that it had been fulfilled . . .by him.
Luke 4
18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Preach the gospel to the poor (In spirit might I add, not just financially broke people) Deliverance to the captives (religious minds) recovering sight to the blind (veil of the minds of men) and to set at liberty them that are bruised. No mention of hell, no mention of eternal torment.
Is Jesus really nothing more than just a salesman giving his pitch to anyone who would listen? Knowing that in the fine print should they reject his message, eternal hell was immediately following? Or could it be that this hell thing has been totally over-inflated all along? And if hell has been, would that not also mean that the image of the devil and the image of satan would follow suit?
It's that final shaking Hebrews talks about. Once light enters the room, everything that darkness supported comes crashing down. Darkness doesn't necessarily have to mean evil, it can also mean uneducated. Shedding a little light on something is bringing something to someone's awareness is it not? Before they lived in darkness of what freedom is. The light is not salvation from hell. It's simply illuminating truth of the Nature of the Son."
I saw the video on Youtube and thought it was excellent. I thought it could speak to someone at this forum so I posted it here. I also posted it on my facebook account and emailed it to several people whom are close to me, and favorited it on my Youtube channel.
Quote from: jabcat on December 21, 2010, 07:01:55 AM
Good post Paolo, amen. A sound, Biblically-based comment.
Travis, if you come back to even see this, the last several posts you've made appear that you're just popping in to post some unscripturally sound thread and don't come back to discuss it, consider others' views, etc.
Are you interested in any further discussion, or are your plans to continue dropping these threads in with no further "give-and-take"? If you plan to discuss things in an interactive manner within forum guidelines, you're welcome to stay. Otherwise, spamming, trolling, and the consequences of a resultant ban are addressed in the Admin Section under "What You May Not Do".
I will PM you as well since I don't know if you're even coming back to check these threads you're starting. I do know the last one you started you weren't active again on the boards for quite awhile - possibly not until today when you started this one? We'll need to do it a little different than that, brother. :bigGrin: (I don't know if you judge me as not being a brother, but if you're saved, I consider you one.)
Thanks, James.
P.S. How far have you truly gone away from a Biblical understanding of Christian Ultimate Reconciliation, aka, The Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ? Unless I'm mistaken, what you just posted appears to be extreme judgmentalism of even other ET'ers who are viewed as not lining up with the authors' prescribed version of their particular views. :dontknow: :bsad:
If I read about costs I think of payments.
Didn't Jesus payed in full?
Was His payment in some way coming short?
Quote from: Travis on December 21, 2010, 08:49:03 AM
I saw the video on Youtube and thought it was excellent. I thought it could speak to someone at this forum so I posted it here. I also posted it on my facebook account and emailed it to several people whom are close to me, and favorited it on my Youtube channel.
Quote from: jabcat on December 21, 2010, 07:01:55 AM
Good post Paolo, amen. A sound, Biblically-based comment.
Travis, if you come back to even see this, the last several posts you've made appear that you're just popping in to post some unscripturally sound thread and don't come back to discuss it, consider others' views, etc.
Are you interested in any further discussion, or are your plans to continue dropping these threads in with no further "give-and-take"? If you plan to discuss things in an interactive manner within forum guidelines, you're welcome to stay. Otherwise, spamming, trolling, and the consequences of a resultant ban are addressed in the Admin Section under "What You May Not Do".
I will PM you as well since I don't know if you're even coming back to check these threads you're starting. I do know the last one you started you weren't active again on the boards for quite awhile - possibly not until today when you started this one? We'll need to do it a little different than that, brother. :bigGrin: (I don't know if you judge me as not being a brother, but if you're saved, I consider you one.)
Thanks, James.
P.S. How far have you truly gone away from a Biblical understanding of Christian Ultimate Reconciliation, aka, The Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ? Unless I'm mistaken, what you just posted appears to be extreme judgmentalism of even other ET'ers who are viewed as not lining up with the authors' prescribed version of their particular views. :dontknow: :bsad:
I see. If you're going to post new topics though, maybe hang around and discuss? :bigGrin:
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 21, 2010, 09:02:02 AM
If I read about costs I think of payments.
Didn't Jesus payed in full?
Was His payment in some way coming short?
:thumbsup:
That's a good question, and I obviously don't believe it did. However, as usual, what are the details and what do they mean?
In fact, the thread from which I took Nathan's post was actually about that - i.e., since Jesus paid it all, how can there be an eternal "hell"/torment? Also, Nathan was stating the case that even afterlife discipline of
any kind for a believer doesn't line up - perhaps only correction for
unbelievers, bringing them to the point of repentance/bowing and confessing Jesus as Lord. It does say believers won't be hurt of the second death, so that's a whole big topic we've already gone around on a time or two (or three or...)
..or maybe there's correction for believers, but not punishment, as in "hurt". :2c:
James, I think the view of Travis is that Jesus payed enough for everyone that believes in Him.
In that case the video is not suited for this forum because I think even Travis won't deny people on this forum believe in Jesus.
But he still posted the video so I assume it's not just about believing in Jesus but also being right about many other religious things.
That further minimizes the work of Jesus.
Instead of all, He only saves the believers. But only believers of the right denomination. Because no denomination has all teh knowledge of HS it can be safely said all denominations come short of the glory of the Lord.
Close to His death Jesus forgave all that mocked and tortured Him. That included the Romans. Somehow I don't believe the Romans were part of the correct Christian doctrine.
Will Romans that are forgiven by Jesus Himself burn forever anyway?
That simply means Jesus breaks his word. At least for me eternal torture is not an expression of forgiving.
:2c:
Yeah, here at work I can't see the actual video, only the text below it about others not being saved - even certain other believers, even though they trust Jesus as their Savior. :sigh:
Try this:
http://illbehonest.com/
http://www.godtube.com/search/?q=it+will+cost+you+everything
Travis, I am just curious about your views. Is belief in Jesus enough? Or must one also submit to scriptural interpretations of the church in order to be saved?
I have seen many believers minimize the power of the blood of Christ by placing their own man-made constraints on salvation. They do so by condemning another believer for not seeing scripture the way they do. IMO, this is very dangerous ground, as we will be judged by how we judge others. If you hold others to this standard and you fall short in an area of understanding, then you yourself are in danger of the judgment you place on others.
I'm not completely onboard with UR beliefs and see things from more of an ED perspective. With that said, I realize the weakness of my own beliefs. And that is minimizing the sacrifice of Christ. I am still open and I don't really know how God hands out judgment. I consider the wonderful members of this community as brothers and sisters even if we disagree on some points of our faith. If you are a believer I consider you a brother as well. I ask you is your faith about unity or division? Is your faith about learning and growing, or being right?
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 21, 2010, 11:24:57 AM
Try this:
http://illbehonest.com/
http://www.godtube.com/search/?q=it+will+cost+you+everything
still can't see it. thanks anyway. i'll be able to see it from home.
you know, anyway, i was raised in the hell-fire doctrine, and stayed in it all my life until God pulled me out of it a few short years ago. I've heard so many orthodox sermons, so many orthodox opinions of the scriptures, I honestly don't care to listen to a lot of them anymore. I know what they teach, from Pentecostal, to Charismatic, to Baptist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Catholic...I'm ready for more accurately translated, Spirit-revealed truths of God and the scriptures...why and how could I go back? So I basically look for other things than much of what these fellows seem to have on the sites you linked to...again, thanks for the effort, but been there, done that, want the truer things of God. :thumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 21, 2010, 11:24:57 AM
Try this:
http://illbehonest.com/
http://www.godtube.com/search/?q=it+will+cost+you+everything
I was on board with that video until about 1:30. It stated that Jesus is coming into this world to damn. Wow! I'm not sure I have heard anything less biblical in my life. Jesus came to give life abundantly. He came to save, to reconcil and to give peace. Will he kill? Absolutely. He will crucify this flesh, this carnal being. This carnality that still lives in me makes my skin crawl. I want it gone...dead...destroyed...perished. The only thing I want left of Shawn, is a pure reflection of Jesus Christ. Lord let your will be done.
Quote from: jabcat on December 21, 2010, 11:30:31 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 21, 2010, 11:24:57 AM
Try this:
http://illbehonest.com/
http://www.godtube.com/search/?q=it+will+cost+you+everything
still can't see it. thanks anyway. i'll be able to see it from home.
You are not missing anything. Basically Jesus came into this world to damn people to hell, you had better get right message.
Quote from: shawn on December 21, 2010, 11:36:03 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 21, 2010, 11:24:57 AM
Try this:
http://illbehonest.com/
http://www.godtube.com/search/?q=it+will+cost+you+everything
I was on board with that video until about 1:30. It stated that Jesus is coming into this world to damn. Wow! I'm not sure I have heard anything less biblical in my life. Jesus came to give life abundantly. He came to save, to reconcil and to give peace. Will he kill? Absolutely. He will crucify this flesh, this carnal being. This carnality that still lives in me makes my skin crawl. I want it gone...dead...destroyed...perished. The only thing I want left of Shawn, is a pure reflection of Jesus Christ. Lord let your will be done.
Amen! So be it, Lord Jesus come quickly!
Quote from: shawn on December 21, 2010, 11:36:59 AM
Quote from: jabcat on December 21, 2010, 11:30:31 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 21, 2010, 11:24:57 AM
Try this:
http://illbehonest.com/
http://www.godtube.com/search/?q=it+will+cost+you+everything
still can't see it. thanks anyway. i'll be able to see it from home.
You are not missing anything. Basically Jesus came into this world to damn people to hell, you had better get right message.
Made following edit/addition to this post while you were typing this. :thumbsup:
"you know, anyway, i was raised in the hell-fire doctrine, and stayed in it all my life until God pulled me out of it a few short years ago. I've heard so many orthodox sermons, so many orthodox opinions of the scriptures, I honestly don't care to listen to a lot of them anymore. I know what they teach, from Pentecostal, to Charismatic, to Baptist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Church of Christ, Church of God, Catholic...I've been a member of the denomination, was a pastor's son. They're right about some things, and they're my brothers. Again, thanks for the effort, but been there, done that, 'God give me true things of You'." (edited further)
Quote from: shawn on December 21, 2010, 11:36:03 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 21, 2010, 11:24:57 AM
Try this:
http://illbehonest.com/
http://www.godtube.com/search/?q=it+will+cost+you+everything
I was on board with that video until about 1:30. It stated that Jesus is coming into this world to damn. Wow! I'm not sure I have heard anything less biblical in my life. Jesus came to give life abundantly. He came to save, to reconcil and to give peace. Will he kill? Absolutely. He will crucify this flesh, this carnal being. This carnality that still lives in me makes my skin crawl. I want it gone...dead...destroyed...perished. The only thing I want left of Shawn, is a pure reflection of Jesus Christ. Lord let your will be done.
That must be an alternative rendering of:
KJVJohn 1247 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
:cloud9: Well said Shawn..... :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on December 21, 2010, 11:30:31 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 21, 2010, 11:24:57 AM
Try this:
http://illbehonest.com/
http://www.godtube.com/search/?q=it+will+cost+you+everything
still can't see it. thanks anyway. i'll be able to see it from home.
you know, anyway, i was raised in the hell-fire doctrine, and stayed in it all my life until God pulled me out of it a few short years ago. I've heard so many orthodox sermons, so many orthodox opinions of the scriptures, I honestly don't care to listen to a lot of them anymore. I know what they teach, from Pentecostal, to Charismatic, to Baptist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Catholic...I'm ready for more accurately translated, Spirit-revealed truths of God and the scriptures...why and how could I go back? So I basically look for other things than much of what these fellows seem to have on the sites you linked to...again, thanks for the effort, but been there, done that, want the truer things of God. :thumbsup:
I understand. But at the same time you are an admin on a forum that has the primary goal of leading people into the right direction.
And you can do that by
(http://www.giftsforhimorher.com/i/34513.jpg)
But you can take an educated guess of course :laughing7:
In Noahs day God flooded the earth and was sorry he did this strange act, so he made a rainbow covenant with Abraham.
God also sent his anger against sodom, but one man pleaded to save the city. He did not save the city but he did save a few souls.
So if God does send people to some kind of afterlife hell lake of fire, there will not be one righteous man such as Noah in heaven,
no no
There will be millions and mllions of glorifed saints. I don't know about you but if I am in heaven and hear that God is sending people to burn in hell forever, then I will plead for Gods mercy. Throughout the enitre bible without exception God has shown mercy to people, for he is kind and mercyfull to the wicked.
The whole creation waiteth for the manifestations of the sons of God, when we are mature enough we will plead as one body for Gods mercy to endure forever, just like all the prophets and saints have done throughout history and God almighty the creator of heaven and earth as absurd as it might sound, listens to and hears the petitions of his saints and changes the course of a nation through their supplications. So I believe the key to univesal salvation is for humanity to love God as he loved us and for us to love one another, as we do this in maturity God will then have a multitude of saints that is like his only begotten Son, grown up into his image.
When one man pleads it can change a nation...imagine what millions of perfect righteous saints can do, even save the whole world (supplications, witnessing) with Christ as our champion (Perfect sacrifice) and head of the corner stone(lord our God).
God didn't just make a rainbow...
He had Christ preach to those spirits in disobedience. (Peter)
:winkgrin:
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 21, 2010, 09:02:02 AM
If I read about costs I think of payments.
Didn't Jesus payed in full?
Was His payment in some way coming short?
Jesus Christ taught about counting the cost, it is a Biblical teaching:
Luke 14:25 ¶And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 21, 2010, 09:25:51 AM
In that case the video is not suited for this forum
The video is suitable for everyplace, as it is an appeal for unbelievers to meet Jesus Christ's terms of peace and it is also an exhortation for believers to examine themselves.
Travis, I agree with everything Jesus said in Luke 14,
one of the great ironies is that to truly save one's life is to first lose it for the sake of the gospel.
But that verse does NOT teach eternal damnation in any way. What do you have to say about the Scriptures I addressed to you in this post:
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/it_will_cost_you_everything_9107.msg113146.html#msg113146
God himself made peace through Jesus Christ:
Colossians 1:20 (New International Version, ©2010)
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
It's just that in this age, not all have come to the knowledge of truth... but it does not change the fact that God will have all men saved eventually, the testimony to be given in due time. (1 Tim. 2: 1 - 6, KJV).
Luke 13:28-35 (New International Version, ©2010)
28 "There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last."
Jesus' Sorrow for Jerusalem
31 At that time some Pharisees came to Jesus and said to him, "Leave this place and go somewhere else. Herod wants to kill you."
32 He replied, "Go tell that fox, 'I will keep on driving out demons and healing people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.' 33 In any case, I must press on today and tomorrow and the next day—for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!
34 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 35 Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'
And:
Matthew 5:24-26 (New International Version, ©2010)
24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.
25 "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
I am sure myself and others have tried to explain to you what it means to understand Matthew 25: 46
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/it_will_cost_you_everything_9107.msg113146.html#msg113146
Kindly check my reply in that post, which is just several posts above...., (which I'm sure you've heard from others)... And I am praying that you will reconsider your position. So you may truly grasp the truth that God is love. (1 John 4: 8). And we must love others and draw others to Him at first by telling them how God loved us first by sending His Son to die for us. (1 John 4: 14) ... And them admonishing and building them up in truth. (John 17: 17, 2 Tim 3: 16 - 17).
:bigGrin:
My KJV Bible contains the doctrine of everlasting punishment.
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Quote from: PaoloNuevo on December 22, 2010, 06:40:03 AM
Travis, I agree with everything Jesus said in Luke 14,
one of the great ironies is that to truly save one's life is to first lose it for the sake of the gospel.
But that verse does NOT teach eternal damnation in any way. What do you have to say about the Scriptures I addressed to you in this post:
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/it_will_cost_you_everything_9107.msg113146.html#msg113146
God himself made peace through Jesus Christ:
Colossians 1:20 (New International Version, ©2010)
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
It's just that in this age, not all have come to the knowledge of truth... but it does not change the fact that God will have all men saved eventually, the testimony to be given in due time. (1 Tim. 2: 1 - 6, KJV).
Luke 13:28-35 (New International Version, ©2010)
28 "There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last."
Jesus' Sorrow for Jerusalem
31 At that time some Pharisees came to Jesus and said to him, "Leave this place and go somewhere else. Herod wants to kill you."
32 He replied, "Go tell that fox, 'I will keep on driving out demons and healing people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.' 33 In any case, I must press on today and tomorrow and the next day—for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!
34 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 35 Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'
And:
Matthew 5:24-26 (New International Version, ©2010)
24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.
25 "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
I am sure myself and others have tried to explain to you what it means to understand Matthew 25: 46
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/it_will_cost_you_everything_9107.msg113146.html#msg113146
Kindly check my reply in that post, which is just several posts above...., (which I'm sure you've heard from others)... And I am praying that you will reconsider your position. So you may truly grasp the truth that God is love. (1 John 4: 8). And we must love others and draw others to Him at first by telling them how God loved us first by sending His Son to die for us. (1 John 4: 14) ... And them admonishing and building them up in truth. (John 17: 17, 2 Tim 3: 16 - 17).
:bigGrin:
:cloud9: What you lack here Travis, is what every other literalist lacks, and that is the understanding that God has different aspects to His nature and levels of dealing with man (whose image and likeness we were made in).
For that reason He speaks to us, and provides a framework to deal with us that way, as we too are a triune being/fractional being composed of spirit, soul, and body, which also also aligns with the 3 main feasts (or meetings of man with God), of 1)Passover, 2)Pentecost, and 3)Tabernacles.
And so what you have quoted of Luke 14 here, applies as follows.....
Luke 14:25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. 1(PASSOVER/kingdoms of the earth, carnal understanding/outer court)
31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? 2(PENTECOST/kingdom of the heaven, beginning of the mind of Christ being made manifest,warfare realm/inner court)
32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace. 3(TABERNACLES/kingdom of God, making of twain, one new CREATION man, creating TRUE peace by the pulling down of the partition that is the veiled mind/Holy of Holies)
I don't know what denom or person you listened to, that threw you into the ditch (earthly fleshly understanding that swallows you whole like Jonah) off to the side on this the Sabbath day, but you need to seek His face that YOU might be spared (by not being left behind in the dust realm) and get yourself back on the way (following as a disciple of HIS), which is SPIRIT (truth) AND LIFE. Blessings.....
:thumbsup: Card.
Brother Travis, are you aware of the many mistranslations and inconsistencies within the King James translation? Also, do you believe the KJV is the only viable translation, or at least the best?
Quote from: Travis on December 22, 2010, 05:36:21 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 21, 2010, 09:02:02 AM
If I read about costs I think of payments.
Didn't Jesus payed in full?
Was His payment in some way coming short?
Jesus Christ taught about counting the cost, it is a Biblical teaching:
Luke 14:25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
There is a cost to following Christ. But, I assume you know that passage was hyperbole. Much like plucking out your eye if it causes you to sin. If this passage wasn't hyperbole then the Bible would be inconsistent because the Bible tells to love, not to hate. Specifically Jesus said loving God and our neighbor to be the greatest of commandments.
This passage is saying nothing and no one can come before God. He is to be our first love. We have to be willing to lay down material things, dreams, goals, family at his feet and say these are yours God. Do with me as you will. If we are not willing to do so, we are not fit to serve.
This passage isn't about Jesus coming to send people to burn eternally. This passage was about the attitude and mindset of a true servant of Christ.
Quote from: Travis on December 22, 2010, 05:43:45 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 21, 2010, 09:25:51 AM
In that case the video is not suited for this forum
The video is suitable for everyplace, as it is an appeal for unbelievers to meet Jesus Christ's terms of peace and it is also an exhortation for believers to examine themselves.
Examining oneself is a good practice. I don't think we disagree about Jesus Christ's terms for peace and reconciliation. You MUST believe in Jesus in order to be saved. And with that comes a cost. I doubt anyone here would disagree with that. But, the Bible also speaks of every knee bowing, every tongue confessing he is Lord. Combined with many other passage and some translational problems I can see the UR viewpoint.
What I do know is that even with traditional translations there is little support for the doctrine of burning people eternally. Considering how unbelieveably horrible that thought is, you would think it would be screamed from the Bible if it were true. You would think that would be mentioned in Genesis as one of the consequences of sin. But, it isn't. Death is mentioned. But, no burning eternally in fire? How do you reconcil that with a God who loves agape? That doesn't bother you at all? You are ok with friends and family burning eternally? You will just smile and take joy at them burning forever? You can reconcil finite sin being punished eternally? If so, I would suggest you re-evaluate some of the passages on loving our neighbor as ourself. Even if you believe in ET, it should bother you. I wonder how that can be ok to anyone.
Combine the fact that eternally burning God's creation with the fact that Jesus claims victory and you have problems. If the devil's goal is to seperate man from God, and 95%+ of creation is lost, burned eternally...how is that victory? If the devil can incite the wrath of God enough to punish temporal sin, no matter how horrible with eternal punishment for most of creation, how can victory be claimed? The Lake of Fire is called the second death for humans, not eternal torture...but mainstream Christianity has tweaked that into something it is not.
Combine the illogical nature of ET doctrine with significant lack of scriptural support and you can easily deduct it's not true. Don't be afraid to ask questions. Doubting man and his intentions is always worth some value. Don't be afraid to explore.
Ask yourself one question, when standing before God on judgment day. When we have to give an accounting of our actions and motives which would you rather defend...assuming both are wrong. God who loves agape eternally burning his creation...and you being ok with it. Or believing the blood of Christ is capable of saving everyone beyond the grave? I know my choice.
Quote from: Travis on December 22, 2010, 08:02:13 AM
My KJV Bible contains the doctrine of everlasting punishment.
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Quote from: PaoloNuevo on December 22, 2010, 06:40:03 AM
Travis, I agree with everything Jesus said in Luke 14,
one of the great ironies is that to truly save one's life is to first lose it for the sake of the gospel.
But that verse does NOT teach eternal damnation in any way. What do you have to say about the Scriptures I addressed to you in this post:
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/it_will_cost_you_everything_9107.msg113146.html#msg113146
God himself made peace through Jesus Christ:
Colossians 1:20 (New International Version, ©2010)
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
It's just that in this age, not all have come to the knowledge of truth... but it does not change the fact that God will have all men saved eventually, the testimony to be given in due time. (1 Tim. 2: 1 - 6, KJV).
Luke 13:28-35 (New International Version, ©2010)
28 "There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last."
Jesus' Sorrow for Jerusalem
31 At that time some Pharisees came to Jesus and said to him, "Leave this place and go somewhere else. Herod wants to kill you."
32 He replied, "Go tell that fox, 'I will keep on driving out demons and healing people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.' 33 In any case, I must press on today and tomorrow and the next day—for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!
34 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 35 Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'
And:
Matthew 5:24-26 (New International Version, ©2010)
24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.
25 "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
I am sure myself and others have tried to explain to you what it means to understand Matthew 25: 46
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/it_will_cost_you_everything_9107.msg113146.html#msg113146
Kindly check my reply in that post, which is just several posts above...., (which I'm sure you've heard from others)... And I am praying that you will reconsider your position. So you may truly grasp the truth that God is love. (1 John 4: 8). And we must love others and draw others to Him at first by telling them how God loved us first by sending His Son to die for us. (1 John 4: 14) ... And them admonishing and building them up in truth. (John 17: 17, 2 Tim 3: 16 - 17).
:bigGrin:
What makes you assume the KJV is the most accurate translation? Your pastor told you so? Grandma used it? Seek and ye shall find.
Just as one example the KJV has translated the word sheol (which means hell in no sense of the word) into hell. It means grave. Using that as your key, unlock the rest. The KJV is filled with translational errors.
But, lets just assume for debate sake that the KJV is a 100% accurate representation/translation of God's word. How many verses can the UR guys come up with that contradict that viewpoint, from the same translation? Verses taken out of context are dangerous indeed (and in no way am I suggesting UR believers are doing that). They lead to many misunderstandings.
Considering I don't believe in ET, but accept eternal death as a significant possibility and have hope in UR lets address it from that position. Are those passages saying people are burned eternally? Or are they saying, that nonbelievers will be destroyed? Considering the vast amount of scripture supports destruction rather than eternally burning...including the Lake of Fire reference in Revelations the answer becomes clear. You can easily deduct even with your KJV that the Bible in that translation supports eternally destroyed...which is an eternal seperation...an eternal punishment.
If you are willing to step outside your comfort zone and question the KJV translation then many doors open up to you...including the belief in UR.
Payed to the last cent: http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d030601.htm
Read it!
The KJV is an excellent and outstanding english translation. I highly encourage all english speakers to read the KJV Bible. Though the english may be older, yet I understand the scriptures much better than when I used to read a modern version (NASB). I didn't start out reading the KJV Bible, but the NASB, and it is hard to switch versions when you become accustomed to a version, however, the switch was certainly good and I consider it to be one of most helpful things that has happened to me.
Luke 14 is sound doctrine. It is challenging though, especially if one has not yielded to Jesus Christ in the manner the teaching requires.
Quote from: Travis on December 22, 2010, 06:45:33 PM
The KJV is an excellent and outstanding english translation. I highly encourage all english speakers to read the KJV Bible. Though the english may be older, yet I understand the scriptures much better than when I used to read a modern version (NASB). I didn't start out reading the KJV Bible, but the NASB, and it is hard to switch versions when you become accustomed to a version, however, the switch was certainly good and I consider it to be one of most helpful things that has happened to me.
Luke 14 is sound doctrine. It is challenging though, especially if one has not yielded to Jesus Christ in the manner the teaching requires.
I get that you believe that about the KJV. But, why do you believe that? Because it's the oldest? Because your pastor says so? If we can prove to you that there are MANY translational errors (prove without any reasonable doubt) would you accept that you may be misinformed? If so, how awful is it to believe in a doctrine that would make God into something he isn't?
Luke 14 is certainly sound doctrine. It is also challenging. And I agree not everyone is willing to yield to it, as the cost may be too high. Not everyone is willing to put God first, nor willing to be in complete obedience. Not everyone is willing to break outside the comfort zone of their church, man's interpretations of scripture and truly seek the face of God. Very few are willing to ask the tough questions for fear of being in danger of burning eternally.
Don't just accept what man says to you. IMO, that is sloth. It is lazy and God didn't call us to be lazy in our faith. We are to test things for validity and truth. We are to ask the Holy Spirit to reveal to us rather than fear to bind us.
Let me ask you a question. Does the doctrine of burning creation for eternity ring true to you? Does it feel right in your spirit? Do you accept it because you fear you will go to hell if you don't and are wrong? Do you accept it because of interpretations of men, or because you have fully explored scriptures?
Again, don't be afraid to search, question and seek the face of God. I believe he wants to reveal his true nature to you.
... and through you.
Many good points Shawn. This one especially struck me. :thumbsup:
Quote from: shawn on December 22, 2010, 05:08:07 PM
Combine the fact that eternally burning God's creation with the fact that Jesus claims victory and you have problems.
I believe that if you or others succeed in getting people to doubt the translation of the KJV, that you are getting them to take a big step, in the wrong direction.
I believe that I was led to the KJV by God, and after I started seeing the differences between the KJV and the NASB I also did much reasearch in the matter an have come to the conclusion that the KJV is by far the best english translation. I also believe that God has led many others to the KJV as well.
You had said:
QuoteIf you are willing to step outside your comfort zone and question the KJV translation then many doors open up to you
While I do agree that if someone puts aside the KJV it could open many doors to them, however, as I said, in the wrong direction. I believe that if someone puts aside the KJV it could begin to open many doors of unsound doctrine to them.
In any case, I did step outside of my comfort zone, I read the NASB since I was a little boy, and only switched to the KJV in the last couple of years, and I am very happy that I did so, and I believe that God led me to the KJV. I also encourage others to switch to the KJV.
Quote from: shawn on December 22, 2010, 07:29:11 PM
Quote from: Travis on December 22, 2010, 06:45:33 PM
The KJV is an excellent and outstanding english translation. I highly encourage all english speakers to read the KJV Bible. Though the english may be older, yet I understand the scriptures much better than when I used to read a modern version (NASB). I didn't start out reading the KJV Bible, but the NASB, and it is hard to switch versions when you become accustomed to a version, however, the switch was certainly good and I consider it to be one of most helpful things that has happened to me.
Luke 14 is sound doctrine. It is challenging though, especially if one has not yielded to Jesus Christ in the manner the teaching requires.
I get that you believe that about the KJV. But, why do you believe that? Because it's the oldest? Because your pastor says so? If we can prove to you that there are MANY translational errors (prove without any reasonable doubt) would you accept that you may be misinformed? If so, how awful is it to believe in a doctrine that would make God into something he isn't?
Luke 14 is certainly sound doctrine. It is also challenging. And I agree not everyone is willing to yield to it, as the cost may be too high. Not everyone is willing to put God first, nor willing to be in complete obedience. Not everyone is willing to break outside the comfort zone of their church, man's interpretations of scripture and truly seek the face of God. Very few are willing to ask the tough questions for fear of being in danger of burning eternally.
Don't just accept what man says to you. IMO, that is sloth. It is lazy and God didn't call us to be lazy in our faith. We are to test things for validity and truth. We are to ask the Holy Spirit to reveal to us rather than fear to bind us.
Let me ask you a question. Does the doctrine of burning creation for eternity ring true to you? Does it feel right in your spirit? Do you accept it because you fear you will go to hell if you don't and are wrong? Do you accept it because of interpretations of men, or because you have fully explored scriptures?
Again, don't be afraid to search, question and seek the face of God. I believe he wants to reveal his true nature to you.
Quote from: Travis on December 22, 2010, 09:27:40 PM
I believe that if you or others succeed in getting people to doubt the translation of the KJV, that you are getting them to take a big step, in the wrong direction.
I believe that I was led to the KJV by God, and after I started seeing the differences between the KJV and the NASB I also did much reasearch in the matter an have come to the conclusion that the KJV is by far the best english translation. I also believe that God has led many others to the KJV as well.
You had said: QuoteIf you are willing to step outside your comfort zone and question the KJV translation then many doors open up to you
While I do agree that if someone puts aside the KJV it could open many doors to them, however, as I said, in the wrong direction. I believe that if someone puts aside the KJV it could begin to open many doors of unsound doctrine to them.
In any case, I did step outside of my comfort zone, I read the NASB since I was a little boy, and only switched to the KJV in the last couple of years, and I am very happy that I did so, and I believe that God led me to the KJV. I also encourage others to switch to the KJV.
Quote from: shawn on December 22, 2010, 07:29:11 PM
Quote from: Travis on December 22, 2010, 06:45:33 PM
The KJV is an excellent and outstanding english translation. I highly encourage all english speakers to read the KJV Bible. Though the english may be older, yet I understand the scriptures much better than when I used to read a modern version (NASB). I didn't start out reading the KJV Bible, but the NASB, and it is hard to switch versions when you become accustomed to a version, however, the switch was certainly good and I consider it to be one of most helpful things that has happened to me.
Luke 14 is sound doctrine. It is challenging though, especially if one has not yielded to Jesus Christ in the manner the teaching requires.
I get that you believe that about the KJV. But, why do you believe that? Because it's the oldest? Because your pastor says so? If we can prove to you that there are MANY translational errors (prove without any reasonable doubt) would you accept that you may be misinformed? If so, how awful is it to believe in a doctrine that would make God into something he isn't?
Luke 14 is certainly sound doctrine. It is also challenging. And I agree not everyone is willing to yield to it, as the cost may be too high. Not everyone is willing to put God first, nor willing to be in complete obedience. Not everyone is willing to break outside the comfort zone of their church, man's interpretations of scripture and truly seek the face of God. Very few are willing to ask the tough questions for fear of being in danger of burning eternally.
Don't just accept what man says to you. IMO, that is sloth. It is lazy and God didn't call us to be lazy in our faith. We are to test things for validity and truth. We are to ask the Holy Spirit to reveal to us rather than fear to bind us.
Let me ask you a question. Does the doctrine of burning creation for eternity ring true to you? Does it feel right in your spirit? Do you accept it because you fear you will go to hell if you don't and are wrong? Do you accept it because of interpretations of men, or because you have fully explored scriptures?
Again, don't be afraid to search, question and seek the face of God. I believe he wants to reveal his true nature to you.
Since you have researched the KJV in depth. May I ask your opinion on something? Why does the KJV translate the hebrew word for grave (sheol) into hell? Is it that the proper translation for sheol is indeed hell? If so, could you please give me a reference so I can research myself? If that word is indeed incorrect, how many more are like that? I respect that you believe what you believe. I can even understand why you are hesitant to think outside of mainstream interpretations. It's a scarey leap. With that said, how do you know correct from incorrect if you have not fully explored?
I understand you feel like you were led to the KJV by God. I get that. What I can say is I believe I was led to many ET preaching churches, and some benefited my walk. I also feel like God led me to places like this one. I don't always believe our journey constitutes truth in the sense of doctrine. I believe the journey leads us to maturity. I believe MANY of us including myself have some incorrect interpretations of scriptures. Does that mean these individuals will burn in hell?
Many of my questions to you were left unanswered. I would be curious as to your responses to them.
Last word, what are these wrong doors that you speak of? Do you believe different translations will lead others to not place their faith in Christ? I don't see anything like that. Do you believe that belief in eternal torture is the path to salvation? Do you believe one can serve Christ and not believe that?
:cloud9: I believe I was led to the KJV intially too, but not so much because it was the "best" translation, but because it was the easiest (at the time) for me to access the original text via my Strong's. We're talking almost 25 years ago here, so "laymen" resources available (that I knew about) were limited to me. But I still depended on the Spirit to teach me, once I realized He would, and that makes all the difference, as well. Blessings....
Quote from: shawn on December 22, 2010, 09:43:18 PM
Since you have researched the KJV in depth. May I ask your opinion on something? Why does the KJV translate the hebrew word for grave (sheol) into hell? Is it that the proper translation for sheol is indeed hell? If so, could you please give me a reference so I can research myself? If that word is indeed incorrect, how many more are like that? I respect that you believe what you believe. I can even understand why you are hesitant to think outside of mainstream interpretations. It's a scarey leap. With that said, how do you know correct from incorrect if you have not fully explored?
I understand you feel like you were led to the KJV by God. I get that. What I can say is I believe I was led to many ET preaching churches, and some benefited my walk. I also feel like God led me to places like this one. I don't always believe our journey constitutes truth in the sense of doctrine. I believe the journey leads us to maturity. I believe MANY of us including myself have some incorrect interpretations of scriptures. Does that mean these individuals will burn in hell?
Many of my questions to you were left unanswered. I would be curious as to your responses to them.
Last word, what are these wrong doors that you speak of? Do you believe different translations will lead others to not place their faith in Christ? I don't see anything like that. Do you believe that belief in eternal torture is the path to salvation? Do you believe one can serve Christ and not believe that?
I know that you have asked questions that I haven't answered. I haven't really committed myself to answer all of the questions that I know threads like this will generate, as that could be very time consuming. I posted some of my thoughts, other people posted some of their thoughts, such is the nature of discussion boards.
Quote from: Travis on December 22, 2010, 10:32:55 PM
Quote from: shawn on December 22, 2010, 09:43:18 PM
Since you have researched the KJV in depth. May I ask your opinion on something? Why does the KJV translate the hebrew word for grave (sheol) into hell? Is it that the proper translation for sheol is indeed hell? If so, could you please give me a reference so I can research myself? If that word is indeed incorrect, how many more are like that? I respect that you believe what you believe. I can even understand why you are hesitant to think outside of mainstream interpretations. It's a scarey leap. With that said, how do you know correct from incorrect if you have not fully explored?
I understand you feel like you were led to the KJV by God. I get that. What I can say is I believe I was led to many ET preaching churches, and some benefited my walk. I also feel like God led me to places like this one. I don't always believe our journey constitutes truth in the sense of doctrine. I believe the journey leads us to maturity. I believe MANY of us including myself have some incorrect interpretations of scriptures. Does that mean these individuals will burn in hell?
Many of my questions to you were left unanswered. I would be curious as to your responses to them.
Last word, what are these wrong doors that you speak of? Do you believe different translations will lead others to not place their faith in Christ? I don't see anything like that. Do you believe that belief in eternal torture is the path to salvation? Do you believe one can serve Christ and not believe that?
I know that you have asked questions that I haven't answered. I haven't really committed myself to answer all of the questions that I know threads like this will generate, as that could be very time consuming. I posted some of my thoughts, other people posted some of their thoughts, such is the nature of discussion boards.
Ok...just thought you might be avoiding the tougher questions.
Quote from: Travis on December 22, 2010, 10:32:55 PM
I know that you have asked questions that I haven't answered. I haven't really committed myself to answer all of the questions that I know threads like this will generate, as that could be very time consuming. I posted some of my thoughts, other people posted some of their thoughts, such is the nature of discussion boards.
Well then, it seems that you haven't considered the cost of this very thread that you named.
Yes, it is time consuming and that is the cost.
If you do not wish to spend the time discussing your posts
and you knew that you would not commit yourself to do so, what is your true intention?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 22, 2010, 10:47:29 PM
Well then, it seems that you haven't considered the cost of this very thread that you named.
Yes, it is time consuming and that is the cost.
If you do not wish to spend the time discussing your posts and you knew that you would not commit yourself to do so, what is your true intention?
I have spent time discussing my post, that doesn't mean I committed to answer every question that is asked. My intention was to present the video to people here, because I feel it is excellent. My reason for posting the video in this section is stated in the original post.
Why don't all people deserve an answer?
Quote from: Travis on December 22, 2010, 06:45:33 PMThe KJV is an excellent and outstanding english translation. I highly encourage all english speakers to read the KJV Bible.
So English speaking people have a higher chance to get saved because they can learn from the (nearly) perfect KJV?
Ignoring the (possible) biased translating the KJV team had huge problems they can't be blamed for.
Translation/linguistics is real hard. It's easy to look up words in a dictionary. But what if there is no dictionary?
What if the writing style of the Greek very different from what the translators ever have seen?
What if there were over a 1000 words they didn't knew what they meant?
I'm not bashing the KJV team I'm stating facts.
Long after the KJV 1611 (about a century ago)new documents were found. From those documents translators learned the measning of those 1000 words (they still don't know a few of them)
They also learned the Biblical Greek doesn't use the grammar rules of Classical Greek.
It's a bit like you trying to read a South African newspaper. It's English. But it will be problematic to understand.
So all those things (grammar, unknow words, bias) put together makes the KJV a flawed translation.
If you compare the KJV 1611 with the modern version like NKJV or KJV2000 you will notice that not only the language is modernized but for example many times hell is changed into grave.
KJV translator were just mortal men. They did the best they could with the limited knowledge (compared to today).
And once a Bible is mainstream it can't be changed much. Just like the pope will never preach a protestant message. Things will change a little over time but it always will stay in the main outlines of doctrine.
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 23, 2010, 12:07:12 AM
Quote from: Travis on December 22, 2010, 06:45:33 PMThe KJV is an excellent and outstanding english translation. I highly encourage all english speakers to read the KJV Bible.
So English speaking people have a higher chance to get saved because they can learn from the (nearly) perfect KJV?
Ignoring the (possible) biased translating the KJV team had huge problems they can't be blamed for.
Translation/linguistics is real hard. It's easy to look up words in a dictionary. But what if there is no dictionary?
What if the writing style of the Greek very different from what the translators ever have seen?
What if there were over a 1000 words they didn't knew what they meant?
I'm not bashing the KJV team I'm stating facts.
Long after the KJV 1611 (about a century ago)new documents were found. From those documents translators learned the measning of those 1000 words (they still don't know a few of them)
They also learned the Biblical Greek doesn't use the grammar rules of Classical Greek.
It's a bit like you trying to read a South African newspaper. It's English. But it will be problematic to understand.
So all those things (grammar, unknow words, bias) put together makes the KJV a flawed translation.
If you compare the KJV 1611 with the modern version like NKJV or KJV2000 you will notice that not only the language is modernized but for example many times hell is changed into grave.
KJV translator were just mortal men. They did the best they could with the limited knowledge (compared to today).
And once a Bible is mainstream it can't be changed much. Just like the pope will never preach a protestant message. Things will change a little over time but it always will stay in the main outlines of doctrine.
:2c:
Very good points. Personally, I don't just stick to one translation. I like to read from several, even though I still use the NIV for much of my studies.
I read somewher that back in 1611, the grave was called hell. I think many of the verse that talk about hell are talking about the grave .
There are some references to another world in sheol the abode of the dead and its difficult to distinguish between the bottomles pit and the grave because the word hell is used in place of 2 or 3 different Greek words, and it seems that samuels ghost was summoned from hell or the underworld, hell can mean the other greek word in samuels case. If you were samuel and were summoned from a fiery hell and whatever tortures you think appens there, would you come out and say "Why have you disturbed me"?
:cloud9: No kidding..... :laughing7:
You should look more closely at the text TT.
It was during a Sabbath day :laughing7:
Seriously, it's a strange quote no matter how you look about it.
Hell: People that are being roasted can't have normal conversations. Plus I think they like to get their mind of the daily affairs in hell.
Heaven: Is heaven really 'rest'? A rest from all kind of negativity of earth yes. But really rest like the classical view of people floating on clouds and doing nothing for ever. I hope there is some activity....
Sleep: When I die and go into a soul sleep and would be waken up by a witch my first words would be something like "It's real" and not not let me sleep a few more years. I woould like to stretch by leggs as bit. In my urn :winkgrin:
Quote from: jabcat on December 22, 2010, 09:25:12 PM
Many good points Shawn. This one especially struck me. :thumbsup:
Quote from: shawn on December 22, 2010, 05:08:07 PM
Combine the fact that eternally burning God's creation with the fact that Jesus claims victory and you have problems.
Yes, very excellent posts Shawn! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Travis on December 22, 2010, 11:15:00 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 22, 2010, 10:47:29 PM
Well then, it seems that you haven't considered the cost of this very thread that you named.
Yes, it is time consuming and that is the cost.
If you do not wish to spend the time discussing your posts and you knew that you would not commit yourself to do so, what is your true intention?
I have spent time discussing my post, that doesn't mean I committed to answer every question that is asked. My intention was to present the video to people here, because I feel it is excellent. My reason for posting the video in this section is stated in the original post.
Not answering tough questions is one of the ways of propagating delusion...
If you don't know the answer to a question, it is fine to say "I don't know". Maybe that will prompt you to think about it more. But ignoring tough questions like they don't exist, does not lead to a better understanding of the truth - it hinders the truth.
I agree with the above, I attended a Christian school that espoused a KJV-only viewpoint and I even had to learn about how the KJV translation was the ONLY proper translation to use. What I found was twisting of historical facts and a LOT of wishful thinking on their part. It was sad, and I still know people trapped in that mode of thinking. The school destroyed and damaged many many peoples Christianity because of the extreme legalism of their viewpoints.
It's scary and frankly I find KJV-onlyism to be dangerously close to idolatry.
Rom. 5: 19 in KJV shouldn't be "many"... but "THE many.."
Curious, why does "will" in 1 Tim 2: 4 become "desires" in the NKJV? :laughing7:
*bump*
Quote from: Cardinal on December 22, 2010, 08:26:50 AM
:cloud9: What you lack here Travis, is what every other literalist lacks, and that is the understanding that God has different aspects to His nature and levels of dealing with man (whose image and likeness we were made in).
For that reason He speaks to us, and provides a framework to deal with us that way, as we too are a triune being/fractional being composed of spirit, soul, and body, which also also aligns with the 3 main feasts (or meetings of man with God), of 1)Passover, 2)Pentecost, and 3)Tabernacles.
I found this very interesting. Recently I read a book called The A's, B's and C's of our spiritual walk (http://www.kingdomgospel.net/publications/ABC.pdf) which also covered this subject of God having different levels of dealing with man, Passover/Pentecost/Tabernacles.
This explained quite a lot of stuff for me. I once wrote about having read a UR rebuttal by a man who claimed to have received a vision from God which proves ET is true. Shortly after his conversion he had said to God that "Your works are perfect, save for one thing: infinite punishment for finite amount of sins just isn't fair". God had then shown him a vision of two baskets full of apples, one filled with good apples and the other with bad apples. Then he had been asked the question "Do you really think putting all these apples in the same basket would be the right thing to do?" After this experience the man had "gained peace" over the ET doctrine.
Looking back at it now, I notice two important things:
a] the vision didn't explicitly affirm ET. God didn't tell this man He was going to burn the bad apples forever. He simply told him they can't be placed in the same basket. (At least not in their bad state.)
b] the vision was received shortly after conversion. Which leads me to believe this man wasn't ready for the full plan of God yet.
Likewise, on some UR site I read a testimony of a woman who had asked God "Why did you create all these billions of people if you knew in advance most of them would end up in hell?" God had answered something like "Well, you created six children fully knowing some of them may end up making really bad choices in life. I did the same, I just created billions of them." At that point the answer had been satisfactory to the woman. However, some years later (when she had grown more mature in faith) she said she had received another revelation from God, which made her a convinced UR believer.
It seems to me that UR isn't always revealed to new believers. Like I said, this explains quite a lot.
Aleax,
Read this thread (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/the_colors_and_other_symbols_bible_9616.msg121294.html#msg121294)
Biblically seen each color has a meaning. (just like word values)
If you mix all colors of light that exist you get white = purity = God
So all colors (Cardinal: aspects of His nature) of God makes Him white.
Thanks for the tip. Will check it out tomorrow (it's 3 AM over here now)