Interesting Conversation

[jabcat]

I believe in thinking on whatever's pure, honest, of a good report, etc.  However, every once in awhile I go out and "look around".  Tonight I came across this recorded conversation on BibleForums.  There's a lot of ground covered here, and a lot of opportunity to "sharpen our faith".  In some things, we may even recognize ourselves (in times past).  IT APPEARS THERE'S A COUPLE OF HONEST SEEKERS QUESTIONING, EXPLORING. 

God bless.  Jesus, Savior of the world Jn. 4:42.

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Poster -  May 28th 2009, 01:27 PM
Hi there,
Out of curiosity, what are everyone's views on the unpopular doctrine of "ultimate reconciliation". I personally have only heard this taught one time, and that was very hush hush! haha. I'm not sure why? I guess we want people to burn in hell! Wow.
For those of you who don't know what this is, it basically teaches that hell is temporary, and that one day (who knows when) all people will willingly bow to the Lord Jesus (Phil 2:10). Hell was simply a drastic means to bring them realization of His Lordship. This teaching views "fire" (as in "hell fire") as primarily a spiritual truth, and not necessarily natural fire. There are a couple other places in Scripture as well that are used to make this claim. Just for the record, I neither adhere to nor deny this doctrine. I haven't really studied it, so please don't burn me at the stake ;).

So what do you all think?

Z

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Poster - May 28th 2009, 02:28 PM
Even though I've never heard of this doctrine, I've often thought about the subject of eternal hellfire. As a child, this is what scared me into getting saved(living in the bible belt). When i grew up, i didn't feel like i even deserved to go to church, because of the expectations and fear of not being perfect. So I started really reading my bible, and soon realized that all this time i was trying to avoid going to hell, i was missing out on so much more. God is love.
I know that there is an eternal consequence to the choices i make in my life. It does seem harsh to burn in hell eternally for the things you may have done in your life. For some, does the punishment fit the crime? I believe God is more just than that. I am, however, thankful for the seed being planted all those years ago, even if it was out of fear.    It led me to get to know the loving God who is with me always. God bless :)

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Poster - May 28th 2009, 02:31 PM
UR denies the need for Jesus Christ's atoning death on the cross.

If everyone who has ever lived is ultimately welcomed into Heaven regardless of whether or not they accept, believe, and trust the Lord; or they choose to reject, deny, and hate the Lord....then Jesus is meaningless.

What is He a Saviour for?
What is He a Redeemer from?

He saves us from our sins, and redeems them from us; SO THAT those who love, believe, and trust Him can spent eternity with Him.

Hell (as we commonly call it), or the Lake of Fire is the eternal abode of all the wicked who reject Him forever and forever and ever.

God doesn't send people to Hell....they choose to want to go there themselves, because they choose to deny and reject the true God of Heaven and His Word.

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Poster - May 28th 2009, 02:38 PM
Here's the wiki on it for background: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_reconciliation

It's something I wish were true, but I don't think it is. But it has much more support in early church history than I was aware of, so I'll have to give it some serious study.

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Poster - May 28th 2009, 03:53 PM
Quote - UR denies the need for Jesus Christ's atoning death on the cross.

I hear where you're coming from. From the U.R. perspective, I dont think they look at Heaven as the ultimate goal. I think they assume levels of reward once in heaven. To those who were not saved while on earth, they will have little to no reward. While those who did receive Jesus while on earth will have other rewards. Seeing from a distance those who have overcome and sit with the Lord in His throne would be more punishment I could handle, personally. Is "hell" simply spatial separation? U.R. proponents would say that eternal physical hellfire seems a bit harsh for someone who simply grew up with opposing viewpoints. It's not their fault they were born Muslim, etc.

However, on the other hand, I've heard it said that while yes God is love personfied, He is also justice personified. Judgment is inevitable. Will it be forever and ever amen? I'm not sure. I need to study it out. I've heard some say that the Greek words for "forever" and "eternal" do not all mean the same thing. Some mean "age lasting" or something equivolent. I'll have to do a word study.  Pretty interesting though :hmm:.

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Poster - 03:57 PM
Quote - UR denies the need for Jesus Christ's atoning death on the cross.

Response -

Honestly, it looks like you're building and arguing against a strawman. You're saying UR denies the need for Christ's sacrifice, and that people will be saved whether they believe in him or not. That isn't what it is teaching... at least according to the OP's description:

"one day (who knows when) all people will willingly bow to the Lord Jesus"

In the words of the OP, UR teaches that Christ's atonement was necessary, and simply that eventually all people will receive and accept it. One might say they were "forced" into it because of hell, but in the manner in which hell is viewed from the UR perspective, it's not any different than someone simply going through a rough time in this life before turning to Christ.

That said, I still disagree with it, because it's simply not found in Scripture. The statement that "all people" will bow before God doesn't mean "all people" are going to be saved, whether right away or eventually. Hence, people are handed over to "shame and eternal contempt" and "eternal punishment" and "eternal destruction".

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Poster - May 28th 2009, 04:37 PM
'Ultimate Reconciliation'... Isn't that universalism or a form of it?

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Poster - May 28th 2009, 07:11 PM
Quote - UR denies the need for Jesus Christ's atoning death on the cross.

If everyone who has ever lived is ultimately welcomed into Heaven regardless of whether or not they accept, believe, and trust the Lord; or they choose to reject, deny, and hate the Lord....then Jesus is meaningless.
What is He a Saviour for?
What is He a Redeemer from?

He saves us from our sins, and redeems them from us; SO THAT those who love, believe, and trust Him can spent eternity with Him.

Hell (as we commonly call it), or the Lake of Fire is the eternal abode of all the wicked who reject Him forever and forever and ever.

God doesn't send people to Hell....they choose to want to go there themselves, because they choose to deny and reject the true God of Heaven and His Word.

--------------------
To back up what was said here, this isn't a strawman. It might appear as such, but it's actually a good argument.

The purpose of the atonement is for us to enter into a relationship with Christ (that is the end); Heaven is a by-product of this relationship. Therefore, if UR eventually gets us to Heaven, despite the fact that we've neglected a relationship with Him this side of eternity, then the atonement is ultimately universal and the death doesn't make much sense in the grand scheme of things.

Regardless, from a purely logical standpoint it doesn't make any sense. People go to Hell because they reject the sacrifice of Christ - yet they're still covered by it? If this is the case, why do they need to be punished? The punishment was already taken on the cross.

We go to Hell because in denying Christ's act on the cross, we must pay for our sins ourselves. Since we are finite beings and God is infinite, any sin committed against Him is infinitely evil, thus requiring an infinite (eternal) punishment. Only an eternal being can cancel out infinite evil. Since those in Hell have denied the eternal One who did just that, they must face their own sins for eternity.

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Poster - May 28th 2009, 08:27 PM


They simply show their infamiliarity with the Scriptures.

It isn't anyone's fault who they are born (Muslim).
It is completely their responsibility, however, that they chose to follow after false gods and idolatry instead of trusting, believing, and following after the One True God who at some point in their existence, manifested Himself to them, and they chose to reject Him in favor of their false gods or beliefs.

There is no such things as an 'excuse'; therefore God is a big unfair meanie.

God won't allow unrepentent sinners who reject His Word, His Scripture, His revelation to them, His son, etc...into His Heaven.

That's why UR is such a dangerous and heretical doctrine. It makes God to be something He far from is (incapable, unfair, etc...) and builds a false rosey picture of the truly damned still getting into Heaven in their unrepentent state nonetheless.

Calvary is meaningless to a Universalist.

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Poster - May 28th 2009, 10:20 PM
Calvary is meaningless to a Universalist.

excellent post! thanks!

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Poster - May 28th 2009, 10:50 PM
It makes alot of sense if we can reduce God to a human with human emotions and rationalizations.
The problem as I see it is the nature of God. In what way does it glorify God for him to receive everyone including unbelievers?
So much of the Bible would be simply invalidated. We would not need reconciliation with God. Christ would not have needed to die. In fact,
Adam and Eve could have stayed in the Garden. The Earth would not have needed to be cursed.Since God alludes to a savior coming in Genesis, this would be totally unnecessary if God was going to shower everybody with love and forgiveness regardless of their sins and regardless of whether there was a blood propitiation.

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Poster - May 28th 2009, 11:35 PM
Wouldn't UR mean that everyone's will would be united with God's? I just don't think it is realistic to believe that there would be a time where person(s) would not rebel against God.

There are people and principalities who will never desire to serve or be obedient to God, therefore the only place for them is Hell.

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Poster - May 28th 2009, 11:46 PM
I think what people forget is that these people don't want to be with God, seeing Him won't change their minds.
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Poster - Jun 1st 2009, 12:29 PM
Quote - I think what people forget is that these people don't want to be with God, seeing Him won't change their minds.
--
You know this, how?

Xel likely knows this because of the Biblical principles and teachings that tell us:
1) many unbelievers have already seen, heard, and talked with the Savior of the World live, and in person and continued to remain in a state of rejection.
2) there is no salvation offered for unbelievers after death.
--
Who are 'these people'?
I read Xel's usage of "these people" to be Jerome's prior reference to: "people and principalities who will never desire to serve or be obedient to God".

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Poster - Jun 1st 2009, 08:08 PM
Ahh you mean people like Saul, and my father who was an athiest until God opened his eyes.

Sorry but it may be that I am from the UK, but the 'these people' tends to be looking down your nose at them. "Lord I thank you that I am not like these people"

It seems that you know the end from the beginning:
Are you sure that no unbeliever, will be offered salvation after death?

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Poster - Jun 1st 2009, 09:55 PM
Yes.

It is a foundational understanding of Mainstream Protestantism that salvation will not be offered after death.

It is true that I cannot know myself, whether or not God may save a lifelong athiest or unbeliever at some point prior to the close of their life; I can know that God will not re-offer to them another chance of salvation after death.

Once we die in our unrepentant sins, our eternal destiny is set.

Luke 16:26 "between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. "

Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"

Luke 13:25 "When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. "

II Corinthians 6:2 "(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)"

John 8:24 "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."

Matthew 13:49 "So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. "

II Thess 2:12 "they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. "

[shawn]

May I ask which site this discussion took place?  Such painful misrepresentation of UR are represented.  When a seed that falls even on fertile ground isn't watered with truth it won't grow.  But, I am encouraged to see people questioning ET.

[WhiteWings]

May I ask which site this discussion took place?  Such painful misrepresentation of UR are represented.  When a seed that falls even on fertile ground isn't watered with truth it won't grow.  But, I am encouraged to see people questioning ET.

http://bibleforums.org/archive/index.php/t-170404.html

[shawn]

Thanks WW.

[legoman]

Interesting.  That is the site I posted at for about 6 months in 2008 before finally being banned for "presenting too many universalism concepts".
You guys are right, these are standard straw man arguments, they even contradict themselves.  Example:

"people choose to go to hell themselves" vs. "God hands them over to eternal shame, contempt, destruction"
"God won't just save people who reject Him" vs. "Everyone bows and receives Him but then its too late"
"Everyone is welcomed into heaven regardless if they reject Him" vs. "everyone accepts Him but it is too late"
"If all are saved Jesus death is meaningless" vs. "Jesus died for all men"
"There is no salvation after death" (except for babies, mentally handicapped, or those who never heard - depending on you talk to).

etc.

This is a kindof doublespeak attack from both sides:

UR: God wants all to be saved.
ET: But they won't be.  Some reject Him.
UR: But all eventually accept Him when they bow and confess.
ET: Too late then.
UR: But God wants all to saved!   :dontknow:
ET: Some will reject Him...
UR:  :sigh:

Its a funny thing to witness.  You just can't make progress against that kind of "logic".

You are right there are some seekers out there.  Those who can't understand the purpose of eternal burning in fire will eventually "stumble" onto the truth.  The rest will stay in darkness until the appointed time.

[Lefein]

Calvary certainly isn't meaningless to me.  I just so happen to believe that Calvary is alot more effective than people give it credit for.  No, Christ's sacrifice for all mankind is not meaningless to me - the only thing that has become meaningless to me now when it comes to my view of salvation is man's merit in obtaining it, whether by doing the work of making the "right choice" or being somehow "specially elected, to hell with the rest".  As John said, I must diminish, while He must increase.

(I think I'll devise a rebuttal to each of the points I see misrepresenting things - stay tuned, but feel free to take this post as my current stand :thumbsup:)

[legoman]

Yes, this has always been the strangest argument for me.

If Christ saves a few -> Christ's sacrifice was great.
But if Christ saves all -> Christ's sacrifice is meaningless?  :dontknow:

How about this:
If Christ saves one person -> is this a great victory?
If Christ saves 99% of people -> does this make Christ's sacrifice meaningless?  Hey 1% still goes to hell!  :thumbsup:  :sigh: What if its only 98%?  How does this change if its 100%?

Strange argument.


It seems this whole line of thinking is related to Sovereignty of God issues: they think they had something to do with their own salvation.  If you can let go of that and realize that salvation is completely up to God, then it suddenly makes sense that the only true victory that can be is 100% salvation.

[Lefein]

After reading through it, some of my displeasure got through...but still...here are my rebuttals.

Poster - May 28th 2009, 02:31 PM
UR denies the need for Jesus Christ's atoning death on the cross.

If everyone who has ever lived is ultimately welcomed into Heaven regardless of whether or not they accept, believe, and trust the Lord; or they choose to reject, deny, and hate the Lord....then Jesus is meaningless.

What is He a Saviour for?
What is He a Redeemer from?

He saves us from our sins, and redeems them from us; SO THAT those who love, believe, and trust Him can spent eternity with Him.

Hell (as we commonly call it), or the Lake of Fire is the eternal abode of all the wicked who reject Him forever and forever and ever.

God doesn't send people to Hell....they choose to want to go there themselves, because they choose to deny and reject the true God of Heaven and His Word.

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It is by Christ, and through Christ that all mankind are atoned for and are able to live with a life that is as God's life.  Otherwise, good luck with Sheol.  If not for Christ, even the Christian would be wallowing around in the dust of the Unseen.  As for choosing to go to Hell...Most people who are not Christians, even if they heard of Hell, simply do not believe in it enough to choose it.  Then there are the other religions who have their own kinds of Hell...they don't believe in a "Christian" Hell enough to choose it.  It isn't on their menu to order.

Then there are those (and there are many) who have never heard of Christ, Hell, or otherwise.  Like people in North Korea, they worship their dictator!  Out of plain and simple ignorance.  North Korea is the most backward place on this earth, yet many would damn the populace there to Hell for idolatry, and choosing to disobey God and choosing a Hell they never even heard of, and is infact...illegal...to know about.  If a Christian is discovered in North Korea, him or her and his entire family (entire family!) are put into a harsh labour camp, where they are usually raped, murdered, abused, etc...basically, the Christian goes to Hell in North Korea before the Atheist does.

For those who do not know about Christ and Hell, I present the statement as a logical metaphor; "I highly doubt that the Greek pagan worshiped the Aztec gods, or had the ability to choose to worship them...having no clue that the Aztecs even existed, let alone their religion."

Poster - 03:57 PM
Quote - UR denies the need for Jesus Christ's atoning death on the cross.

Response -

Honestly, it looks like you're building and arguing against a strawman. You're saying UR denies the need for Christ's sacrifice, and that people will be saved whether they believe in him or not. That isn't what it is teaching... at least according to the OP's description:

"one day (who knows when) all people will willingly bow to the Lord Jesus"

In the words of the OP, UR teaches that Christ's atonement was necessary, and simply that eventually all people will receive and accept it. One might say they were "forced" into it because of hell, but in the manner in which hell is viewed from the UR perspective, it's not any different than someone simply going through a rough time in this life before turning to Christ.

That said, I still disagree with it, because it's simply not found in Scripture. The statement that "all people" will bow before God doesn't mean "all people" are going to be saved, whether right away or eventually. Hence, people are handed over to "shame and eternal contempt" and "eternal punishment" and "eternal destruction".

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All means All.  Unless, it isn't true that "all" fall short of the glory of God, are depraved, and worthy of going to Hell for eternity?  Perhaps its just "some of all people" who fall short of that glory?  If so, that's good news!  Seems that either way you look at it, far less people are going to Hell in a handbasket than we thought.

Providing that all doesn't mean all that is.

Poster - May 28th 2009, 07:11 PM
Quote - UR denies the need for Jesus Christ's atoning death on the cross.

If everyone who has ever lived is ultimately welcomed into Heaven regardless of whether or not they accept, believe, and trust the Lord; or they choose to reject, deny, and hate the Lord....then Jesus is meaningless.
What is He a Saviour for?
What is He a Redeemer from?

He saves us from our sins, and redeems them from us; SO THAT those who love, believe, and trust Him can spent eternity with Him.

Hell (as we commonly call it), or the Lake of Fire is the eternal abode of all the wicked who reject Him forever and forever and ever.

God doesn't send people to Hell....they choose to want to go there themselves, because they choose to deny and reject the true God of Heaven and His Word.

--------------------
To back up what was said here, this isn't a strawman. It might appear as such, but it's actually a good argument.

The purpose of the atonement is for us to enter into a relationship with Christ (that is the end); Heaven is a by-product of this relationship. Therefore, if UR eventually gets us to Heaven, despite the fact that we've neglected a relationship with Him this side of eternity, then the atonement is ultimately universal and the death doesn't make much sense in the grand scheme of things.

Regardless, from a purely logical standpoint it doesn't make any sense. People go to Hell because they reject the sacrifice of Christ - yet they're still covered by it? If this is the case, why do they need to be punished? The punishment was already taken on the cross.

We go to Hell because in denying Christ's act on the cross, we must pay for our sins ourselves. Since we are finite beings and God is infinite, any sin committed against Him is infinitely evil, thus requiring an infinite (eternal) punishment. Only an eternal being can cancel out infinite evil. Since those in Hell have denied the eternal One who did just that, they must face their own sins for eternity.

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Firstly, it is not about "heaven" it is about "everyone" having that same exact relationship that Christians seek to enjoy.

Secondly, his death, and his resurrection are what free mankind, not the merit of our confession.  If not for his death, even you dear Christian would be in Sheol with the Atheist.  If his death was good enough to save you, then it is good enough for everyone.

It seems to me, that in the grand scheme of things - someone doesn't want to feel that God loves everyone in a practical sense, and not just you.

As for the lake of fire, it is hyper-purification.  Christ's blood has atoned for everyone, but just because someone accepts Jesus Christ doesn't mean that they automatically at the wave of a magic wand become completely clean in their behaviours.

I'm a Christian, and accepted Christ, but I struggle with lust, impatience, bitterness, unforgiveness, etc.  It is by firey trials that the holy virtues are instilled in me, by which the Blood of Christ provides the essential empowerment to overcome, and cleanses by his empowering Grace.  What is the fire?  Just another manifestation of his Grace.

Poster - May 28th 2009, 08:27 PM


They simply show their infamiliarity with the Scriptures.

It isn't anyone's fault who they are born (Muslim).
It is completely their responsibility, however, that they chose to follow after false gods and idolatry instead of trusting, believing, and following after the One True God who at some point in their existence, manifested Himself to them, and they chose to reject Him in favor of their false gods or beliefs.

There is no such things as an 'excuse'; therefore God is a big unfair meanie.

God won't allow unrepentent sinners who reject His Word, His Scripture, His revelation to them, His son, etc...into His Heaven.

That's why UR is such a dangerous and heretical doctrine. It makes God to be something He far from is (incapable, unfair, etc...) and builds a false rosey picture of the truly damned still getting into Heaven in their unrepentent state nonetheless.

Calvary is meaningless to a Universalist.

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Their fault?  Isn't a man's salvation not based on a man's merit?  Fault and Merit go hand in hand.

Poster - May 28th 2009, 10:50 PM
It makes alot of sense if we can reduce God to a human with human emotions and rationalizations.
The problem as I see it is the nature of God. In what way does it glorify God for him to receive everyone including unbelievers?
So much of the Bible would be simply invalidated. We would not need reconciliation with God. Christ would not have needed to die. In fact,
Adam and Eve could have stayed in the Garden. The Earth would not have needed to be cursed.Since God alludes to a savior coming in Genesis, this would be totally unnecessary if God was going to shower everybody with love and forgiveness regardless of their sins and regardless of whether there was a blood propitiation.

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Humans are the image of God, if anything, to be human is to be godly.  A human being who is not godly, is inhuman.  Unless God is inhuman?  I think an inhuman God would invalidate the Bible more than a God who is...Infinite Love?

Why should Christ's sacrifice be so itty bitty and pitty witty?  I'd be inclined to believe that God incarnate dying on a cross would have a God sized scope of effect!

Poster - May 28th 2009, 11:35 PM
Wouldn't UR mean that everyone's will would be united with God's? I just don't think it is realistic to believe that there would be a time where person(s) would not rebel against God.

There are people and principalities who will never desire to serve or be obedient to God, therefore the only place for them is Hell.

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If you managed to stop rebelling long enough to accept him, I'm sure the vast majority of humanity can.

Poster - May 28th 2009, 11:46 PM
I think what people forget is that these people don't want to be with God, seeing Him won't change their minds.
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Like you didn't change your mind?

___ ____ ____

This next one deserves some specific quoting.

Poster - Jun 1st 2009, 09:55 PM
Yes.

It is a foundational understanding of Mainstream Protestantism that salvation will not be offered after death.

The grace-gifts and invitation of God is without repentance.

Jesus defeated Death at the very least, twice - by raising Jairus' daughter, and Lazarus - before his very own death...of which he defeated.  Then there is defeating death for everyone by raising everyone at the End of Days, and then there is defeating Death itself when throwing it into the Lake of Fire...

Seems to me that Death is clearly not a problem for Jesus at all, and what with his invitation being without repentance and all...

It is true that I cannot know myself, whether or not God may save a lifelong athiest or unbeliever at some point prior to the close of their life; I can know that God will not re-offer to them another chance of salvation after death.

Oh really?  Without repentance? Contradiction in the Bible much?

Once we die in our unrepentant sins, our eternal destiny is set.

Luke 16:26 "between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. "

Not a single bit of that says that it is impossible for God himself to close the gap, or that he never will.

Abraham, and Lazarus, and the rich man are not God.  What is impossible with men like Abraham, Lazarus, and the rich man...is very much so possible with God.

Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"

Oh beautifully obscure passage taken out of context...what mysteries haveth thee for me?

The context of the verse has more to do with the death of the high-priest than it does with judgement.

And as for judgement, horray!  The judgement of God is righteous judgement, full of justice.  God's justice is setting wrong people right, and setting wrong things right.  God's judgement comes before his salvation - look at Israel being constantly judged for their unrepentance, salvation always came after the judgement.

The judgement of God is always remedial.

Luke 13:25 "When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. "

Doesn't say for how long they'll be thrust out.  Not a single qualifier in that verse states "Thrust out forever".

John 8:24 "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."

And Christians die to their sins.  Either way...Jesus defeated death one, twice, thrice...every time...I don't think Death is so nearly able to defeat God's purposes as Christians who half worship it by exalting it over the very Life himself.

Matthew 13:49 "So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. "

But not forever.

Also; Remedial.

II Thess 2:12 "they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. "

And here I thought all didn't mean all?

Also, the text in a more literal translation;

CLV 2Th 2:12 that all may be judged who do not believe the truth, but delight in injustice.

[whyiloveitaly.com]

The OP's discussions between posters made me think of when the blind man was healed. When he saw, he got kicked out of the synagogue. And anyone else who confessed (saw) Jesus was kicked out, too.
Almost as though nowadays anyone who believes that Jesus will save all is to be kicked out for being a heretic!

Wait a second... isn't Jesus the Savior of the world??

Blessings,
brian

[lomarah]

The OP's discussions between posters made me think of when the blind man was healed. When he saw, he got kicked out of the synagogue. And anyone else who confessed (saw) Jesus was kicked out, too.
Almost as though nowadays anyone who believes that Jesus will save all is to be kicked out for being a heretic!

Wait a second... isn't Jesus the Savior of the world??

Blessings,
brian

This is SO true. My husband and I had been attending a Wesleyan church when God opened my mind up to UR. When I shared it with my husband he was initially very upset and talked to the pastor about it. Before all of this the pastor had really been pushing us to take on the youth ministry at the church. When he found out that I believed in UR he said he didn't want me to take on youth ministry anymore. (I never wanted to in the first place...) He told me that I was being deceived by the devil. His wife started balling and begging me not to lead my daughter astray. Needless to say, I don't go to church anymore. (And i've never felt more free!)

[whyiloveitaly.com]

The OP's discussions between posters made me think of when the blind man was healed. When he saw, he got kicked out of the synagogue. And anyone else who confessed (saw) Jesus was kicked out, too.
Almost as though nowadays anyone who believes that Jesus will save all is to be kicked out for being a heretic!

Wait a second... isn't Jesus the Savior of the world??

Blessings,
brian

This is SO true. My husband and I had been attending a Wesleyan church when God opened my mind up to UR. When I shared it with my husband he was initially very upset and talked to the pastor about it. Before all of this the pastor had really been pushing us to take on the youth ministry at the church. When he found out that I believed in UR he said he didn't want me to take on youth ministry anymore. (I never wanted to in the first place...) He told me that I was being deceived by the devil. His wife started balling and begging me not to lead my daughter astray. Needless to say, I don't go to church anymore. (And i've never felt more free!)

I'm sorry for that, lomarah.
There's so much intolerance around, esp in Christian circles..!

Funny how "friends" can become "enemies" so quickly!

Blessings,
brian

[Michelle]

"Calvary is meaningless to a Universalist."

:talkangry: :spank: THAT'S NOT TRUE!!!!

[lomarah]

The OP's discussions between posters made me think of when the blind man was healed. When he saw, he got kicked out of the synagogue. And anyone else who confessed (saw) Jesus was kicked out, too.
Almost as though nowadays anyone who believes that Jesus will save all is to be kicked out for being a heretic!

Wait a second... isn't Jesus the Savior of the world??

Blessings,
brian

This is SO true. My husband and I had been attending a Wesleyan church when God opened my mind up to UR. When I shared it with my husband he was initially very upset and talked to the pastor about it. Before all of this the pastor had really been pushing us to take on the youth ministry at the church. When he found out that I believed in UR he said he didn't want me to take on youth ministry anymore. (I never wanted to in the first place...) He told me that I was being deceived by the devil. His wife started balling and begging me not to lead my daughter astray. Needless to say, I don't go to church anymore. (And i've never felt more free!)

I'm sorry for that, lomarah.
There's so much intolerance around, esp in Christian circles..!

Funny how "friends" can become "enemies" so quickly!

Blessings,
brian

Yes, it's true. And all of my best friends are mainstream Christians who believe in ET. I have only discussed it with one of them so far and that's only because she asked me about it. And she advised me not to talk about it with our other friends because we all know what they would think...  :sigh:

My best friend's husband is a pastor... they are both Calvinists... She has asked me why I haven't been attending church and I told her I didn't want to get into it right then. I know it's only a matter of time before we'll have to discuss it but I am dreading that conversation. Ughhhhhh.

[shawn]

It's certainly an issue.  Many of us stay closet with our beliefs especially if we belong to a church.  For me, I will only share if I feel someone is ready...searching.

[Nathan]

Yeah, that's the same thing I tell people Shawn, test the season of the field you're planting in.  Don't force the seed in frozen ground, it won't be able to grow there even if you did plant it.

We've been going through the book of Genesis on Wednesday nights from a dimensional perspective and last night we came across some interesting things.  For one, Ishmael literally means, "God hears".  Of course we know Isaac means laughter.  We also know that Ishmael was a result of Abraham taking matters into his own hands.  Yet God revealed his nature to Hagar and let her know the same covenant he made with Abraham, he now will honor in her son because the covenant is in the SEED of Abraham . . .where the seed goes, the covenant follows.

It was also 13 years from when Hagar birthed Ishmael to when Sarah conceived Isaac.  We started pondering on that.  "Why 13?  Why was it even stated at all?  Then someone shared about the fact that according to Hebrew culture, there is a celebration when a boy turns 13.  For it is at this age where he's no longer considered a child.  Which led us to see that Isaac "couldn't" manifest until Ishmael reached a level of maturity where reproduction begins to manifest.

But the one thing that stuck out most to me was . . .we see that being born of Hagar is to be born in slavery, or bondage.  But to be born of Sarah is to be born in freedom and through Sarah's womb comes laughter which carries the inheritance.  I was born from sin into religion for many years . . .God still blessed us, we still felt his presence in our church services.  We still pursued him the best way we could given the limited vision we had at the time.  But we were children of Ishmael nonetheless.  But the most powerful message that goes with this is, regardless as to whether we're born of Ishmael or not, the truth is, no matter where we are, GOD STILL HEARS!!  All it really means is, we've not yet reached the opportunity where we reach our level of maturity in our Ishmael lives so that Isaac can be birthed in us.  Isaac WILL be birthed in all, but not all have yet come to that place.  But know, regardless as to whether they are living in inherited laughter or not, God still hears.

[shawn]

Yeah, that's the same thing I tell people Shawn, test the season of the field you're planting in.  Don't force the seed in frozen ground, it won't be able to grow there even if you did plant it.

We've been going through the book of Genesis on Wednesday nights from a dimensional perspective and last night we came across some interesting things.  For one, Ishmael literally means, "God hears".  Of course we know Isaac means laughter.  We also know that Ishmael was a result of Abraham taking matters into his own hands.  Yet God revealed his nature to Hagar and let her know the same covenant he made with Abraham, he now will honor in her son because the covenant is in the SEED of Abraham . . .where the seed goes, the covenant follows.

It was also 13 years from when Hagar birthed Ishmael to when Sarah conceived Isaac.  We started pondering on that.  "Why 13?  Why was it even stated at all?  Then someone shared about the fact that according to Hebrew culture, there is a celebration when a boy turns 13.  For it is at this age where he's no longer considered a child.  Which led us to see that Isaac "couldn't" manifest until Ishmael reached a level of maturity where reproduction begins to manifest.

But the one thing that stuck out most to me was . . .we see that being born of Hagar is to be born in slavery, or bondage.  But to be born of Sarah is to be born in freedom and through Sarah's womb comes laughter which carries the inheritance.  I was born from sin into religion for many years . . .God still blessed us, we still felt his presence in our church services.  We still pursued him the best way we could given the limited vision we had at the time.  But we were children of Ishmael nonetheless.  But the most powerful message that goes with this is, regardless as to whether we're born of Ishmael or not, the truth is, no matter where we are, GOD STILL HEARS!!  All it really means is, we've not yet reached the opportunity where we reach our level of maturity in our Ishmael lives so that Isaac can be birthed in us.  Isaac WILL be birthed in all, but not all have yet come to that place.  But know, regardless as to whether they are living in inherited laughter or not, God still hears.

I just love these kinds of interpretations of scripture.  It makes so much sense and has been staring me in the face for years.  I think it can mean multiple things on mulitple levels.  Ishmael was a child produced from self will.  Who hasn't had that come to full maturity in their lives in order to have Isaac birthed in them?  Who here hasn't tried to save themselves with lawful living?  Who hasn't tried to map out our own steps?  I know I had to go down that road to see the futility and fruitlessness of that kind of walk.  When the time came Isaac was birthed and is growing within me, leading to that life of faith, relationship and obedience.  But to this day, my Ishmael is a thorn in my Isaac's side.  I see this also speaking about walking in the natural vs walking in the spiritual...walking in the flesh vs walking in the spirit.

[lomarah]

 :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

[Nathan]

Another little interesting thing there is that God just explains circumcision to Abraham . . .and in the next breath, he changes Sarai's name to Sarah . . .but I don't have time right now to add any on it.