Does the "WE CHOOSE HELL" argument really make God more loving?

[Universalist Catholic]

The popular teaching used in the Churches today state that Hell is a natural Consequence of choosing to not have God in your lives.  And according to them, the results of that are pain and suffering for all Eternity.  They use the example that bad things have consequences.  Like if you smoke and you get lung Cancer.  But even people who never smoked a cigarette in their life still get lung cancer, even though at a lower percentage.  To me, all this "Choosing Hell" is just an improvement from abusive daddy to neglectful daddy.  But how does the God who lets someone choose hell make a more loving God?

[thinktank]

I understand the choosing hell part, since I think we also make choices here on earth, whether to love people or hate them etc, yes I know it is easier to hate than love, though.

I don't agree though that hell is eternal and also what hell is. I think the afterlife is similar to the problems we have on earth, and any problems a person has is carried with them to the next world, also similar to this world we can choose to follow Jesus or not to follow, if one becomes a christain they can turn away if they want, so why can't unbelievers turn to God in the next life?. Jesus said to the Jews ,"ye shall die in your sins" and Judas went to his own place. I think people go to their own place, a sample of this is during sleep. When we sleep we are in a dream world where anything happens, I think this is what happens when we die, we go to the "dream world" being spirit beings with creative imaginations (made in the image of God), I think believers though have the presence of Jesus with them, maybe when he said to the thief on the cross "You will be with me in paradise" His peace helps us to exerience good dreams, instead of nightmares. Perhaps that's why some Christians have visions of hell being monsters and demons torturing people, because (possibly) their life does not have the peace and power of Jesus to cast out devils, there perhaps might be other reasons though??

Also "No man has gone to heaven, except the son of man" Perhaps the thief did not go to Mount Zion where Jesus throne is, but goes to heavenly places(Dream state), where the presence of God is with us. So in a sense according to this theory the thief did not go to heaven(mount Zion), but experienced a state of heaven in the peace of Jesus. This might explain the resurection of the dead, that during the last trumpet believers awake out of their sleep-dream Jesus presence existence and go to the real heaven in Mount zion where the throne of the lamb exists.
ThinkTank

[Paul Hazelwood]

The popular teaching used in the Churches today state that Hell is a natural Consequence of choosing to not have God in your lives.  And according to them, the results of that are pain and suffering for all Eternity.  They use the example that bad things have consequences.  Like if you smoke and you get lung Cancer.  But even people who never smoked a cigarette in their life still get lung cancer, even though at a lower percentage.  To me, all this "Choosing Hell" is just an improvement from abusive daddy to neglectful daddy.  But how does the God who lets someone choose hell make a more loving God?

Well, depending upon the perspective of Hell, if a person dies willfully rejecting what God has shown that person, perhaps they did choose it.

I am not sure that any argument truly makes God more loving than another.  Fact is, some universalist thought can be construed as sick.   Whether it truly is or not is another matter.

[lomarah]

The popular teaching used in the Churches today state that Hell is a natural Consequence of choosing to not have God in your lives.  And according to them, the results of that are pain and suffering for all Eternity.  They use the example that bad things have consequences.  Like if you smoke and you get lung Cancer.  But even people who never smoked a cigarette in their life still get lung cancer, even though at a lower percentage.  To me, all this "Choosing Hell" is just an improvement from abusive daddy to neglectful daddy.  But how does the God who lets someone choose hell make a more loving God?

Yes I feel the exact same way. LOVE ALWAYS PERSEVERES.  :cloud9:
I often think about how I would NEVER give up on my children, no matter how far they may sink into sin in their lives. They are still young and I hope to give them the best example I can but I am far, far from perfect and everyone must make their own mistakes. But one thing I will never do is give up on them!  :cloud9:

[Universalist Catholic]

Fact is, some universalist thought can be construed as sick

How so?

[Paul Hazelwood]

Fact is, some universalist thought can be construed as sick

How so?

Well, when you hear that it pleases God for murder and rape to exist because it is all for a good and planned purpose, and the means justifies the end, you really don't need a doctrine of hell to make God look bad.

[micah7:9]

Here in is choice that most of mankind takes...Gen 13:8  And Abram saith unto Lot, `Let there not, I pray thee, be strife between me and thee, and between my shepherds and thy shepherds, for we are men--brethren.
Gen 13:9  Is not all the land before thee? be parted, I pray thee, from me; if to the left, then I to the right; and if to the right, then I to the left.'

Gen 13:10  And Lot lifteth up his eyes, and seeth the whole circuit of the Jordan that it is all a watered country (before Jehovah's destroying Sodom and Gomorrah, as Jehovah's garden, as the land of Egypt,) in thy coming toward Zoar,
Gen 13:11  and Lot chooseth for himself the whole circuit of the Jordan; and Lot journeyeth from the east, and they are parted--a man from his companion;
We dont chose the grave(hell) we end up there, unless in the sense of David, for he chose of his own inhibitions.
Psa 139:7 Whither could I go from Your spirit, And whither could I run away from Your presence?
Psa 139:8 If I should climb to the heavens, You are there, And should I make my berth in the unseen, behold, You are there."
Psa 139:9 Should I wear the wings of dawn, Should I tabernacle in the hindmost sea,
Psa 139:10 Even there Your hand would guide me, And Your right hand, it would hold me."
In our selves we choose but what we are has not choice, for He calls and He bekcons and well recieve for He is I AM

[Miriam]

Fact is, some universalist thought can be construed as sick

How so?

Well, when you hear that it pleases God for murder and rape to exist because it is all for a good and planned purpose, and the means justifies the end, you really don't need a doctrine of hell to make God look bad.

That's true.

[Nathan]

TT if our premise is inaccurate, our whole perspective will be also . . . You stated . . .
I think the afterlife is similar to the problems we have on earth, and any problems a person has is carried with them to the next world, also similar to this world we can choose to follow Jesus or not to follow, if one becomes a christain they can turn away if they want, so why can't unbelievers turn to God in the next life?.

I can't accept this.  The spirit realm is ABOVE this one, it's of a higher authority, a purified place of dwelling.  It's where God "is", it's "what" God is.  He "is" spirit.  To think that what we have in the flesh we carry over to the other side in the spirit isn't God's pattern or nature at all.  When one dies in their sin, it's not saying their sin now goes with them.  Death is what breaks the vows of promises we make on this side of life.  It is also what breaks the debts we owe as well. 

Giving your sin over to Jesus NOW doesn't mean that NOW when you die your safe, it means that NOW instead of being bound by sin in this life, you are NOW free from it's grip.  We are born in a realm of death but in this realm of death we can live in life through Christ.  If we don't accept Christ, we're born in death, we may live in this death, but there's no life in us, and then in this death, we'll die.  But after we cross, to think that one can still be tempted . . .think about it . . the things that tempt us are carnal things . . . our spirit is not tempted by them, our flesh is what's tempted.  But when we die, our flesh no longer exists . . .carnality has no hold on our spirit.  So once we cross, there is NO opportunity for carnality to lure our spirit into sin . . .into misalgnment.  Otherwise . . .there really would be no hope.

As for the dreams . . .I don't beleive dreams are connected to heaven at all.  I beleive God can use our dreams to speak to us, but to say that our dreams are the corridor to the spirit realm I think is an inacurrate assumption.  I see our dreams as direct linkage to our minds . . .whatever activty is in our mind, our dreams will most likely reflect that.

[bushy]

I have been hit with the argment that people choose hell so God gives them what they want. It's a silly thing to say, as if anyone hates God so much they would prefer to burn in fire forever. The answer to that is when those God haters, who supposedly were choosing hell, finished standing up the cross He said, "Father forgive them because they don't know what they are doing". He doesn't let peoples ignorance get in the way of his love and forgiveness. I love that.

[Nathan]

I like that . . .God doesn't let my ignorance get in the way of his redemption.

I "would" say that people "do" choose hell when they reject God.  It's just that the hell they're choosing isn't one that is connected to eternal torment.  It's just saying that the consequences of rejecting the one with the power resurrect us to live in this realm of death without being in bondage to it, makes it very difficult to experience life at all.  So because of the rejection, they pretty much go through hell as a result.  But it's still not eternal.  At most, it may last as long as a life on this earth lasts . . .but when we cross over, hell can not follow.  It ends in the grave.  Ha . . .Hell ends in hell . .the grave, shoel, hades . .the place of the dead.

[bushy]

Yes, I agree 100 percent. My brain is still changing to understand what hell really might be. I think I've read where Gary A. seems to want to do away with the word hell completely, but probably not the fire of correction. I've wondered about exactly what he believes.

[Nathan]

For me, when Jesus said IN THIS WORLD you will have TRIALS and TRIBULATION . . .but . . .be of good cheer, I'VE OVERCOME THE WORLD. . .

That pretty much not only explains to me where and what hell is, but also that it's already been dealt with . . .even when I'm experiencing it, it's good to know that my Dad has already set it up so that I get through it without it killing me.

[micah7:9]

Ray Prinzing in one of his tapes said this about hell, (and I am paraphrasing,) Hell is when you are turned away from the Face of God, for what ever cause, and He allows His presence to be brought forth; be that through someone witnessing or a song of praise, or His Spirit bringing forth the temporary lose of His Presense in your daily life. Hell, is being pursued by God when you have adapted an attitude of attemping to turn face and run from His presence. It sure is "hell for me. :sigh:  :mshock:

I dont know if it is an awareness that it is a/my choice, but I do know that when I struggle when I am there (in hell) I am brought to realize as David  Psa 139:8  If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, thou art there.

When I am there I am never comfortable, nor am I aware of just what caused me to make my bed there, but I have come to know that He Loves Me. And it is that knowledge, that begins the work, for the journey back to stand once again before Him, and recieve His reproof. Yes, for me it makes God more loving :bigGrin: :icon_king: :HeartThrob:

[thinktank]

TT if our premise is inaccurate, our whole perspective will be also . . . You stated . . .
I think the afterlife is similar to the problems we have on earth, and any problems a person has is carried with them to the next world, also similar to this world we can choose to follow Jesus or not to follow, if one becomes a christain they can turn away if they want, so why can't unbelievers turn to God in the next life?.

I can't accept this.  The spirit realm is ABOVE this one, it's of a higher authority, a purified place of dwelling.  It's where God "is", it's "what" God is.  He "is" spirit.  To think that what we have in the flesh we carry over to the other side in the spirit isn't God's pattern or nature at all.  When one dies in their sin, it's not saying their sin now goes with them.  Death is what breaks the vows of promises we make on this side of life.  It is also what breaks the debts we owe as well. 

Giving your sin over to Jesus NOW doesn't mean that NOW when you die your safe, it means that NOW instead of being bound by sin in this life, you are NOW free from it's grip.  We are born in a realm of death but in this realm of death we can live in life through Christ.  If we don't accept Christ, we're born in death, we may live in this death, but there's no life in us, and then in this death, we'll die.  But after we cross, to think that one can still be tempted . . .think about it . . the things that tempt us are carnal things . . . our spirit is not tempted by them, our flesh is what's tempted.  But when we die, our flesh no longer exists . . .carnality has no hold on our spirit.  So once we cross, there is NO opportunity for carnality to lure our spirit into sin . . .into misalgnment.  Otherwise . . .there really would be no hope.

As for the dreams . . .I don't beleive dreams are connected to heaven at all.  I beleive God can use our dreams to speak to us, but to say that our dreams are the corridor to the spirit realm I think is an inacurrate assumption.  I see our dreams as direct linkage to our minds . . .whatever activty is in our mind, our dreams will most likely reflect that.

Ok, I don't have it figured out, some things you say makes sense, these things are debatable but it does not resonate with me fully yet.


But there is one mistake I think you have made, you said that God is spirit. I don't see this as scriptural, I think the true statement is God is a spirit, which allows God the freedom of seperation, if God is spirit, then he cannot seperate himself from the ungodly and also the devil and unclean spirits. You cannot deny the bible that repeatedly mentions an unclean spirit. The bible also says that man is a spirit

1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world

Proverbs 16:2
All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.


Luke 11:24
When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.

Luke 9:55
But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

Does God rebuke himself

[micah7:9]

This statement, "But there is one mistake I think you have made, you said that God is spirit. I don't see this as scriptural, I think the true statement is God is a spirit, which allows God the freedom of seperation, if God is spirit, then he cannot seperate himself from the ungodly and also the devil and unclean spirits. You cannot deny the bible that repeatedly mentions an unclean spirit. The bible also says that man is a spirit"
Why or how can you state that?

CLV Joh 4:24 God is spirit, and those who are worshiping Him must be worshiping in spirit and truth."
Eph 4:4  one body and one Spirit, according as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the spirit with the tie of peace:
He is the Father of "spirits" Heb 12:9 Thereafter, indeed, we had the fathers of our flesh as discipliners, and we respected them. Yet shall we not much rather be subjected to the Father of spirits and be living."
But He is SPIRIT

[thinktank]

1 Corinthians 2:12
What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.


I am saying that just because something is spirit does not make them Higher or Righteous

Nathan
The spirit realm is ABOVE this one, it's of a higher authority, a purified place of dwelling.  It's where God "is", it's "what" God is.  He "is" spirit.

I am reminding Nathan that there is a spirit realm of the world and of darkness, where we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers in heavenly places.

The unity you speak of Micah I believe is the unity under Christ, where we become one in Christ Jesus. The verse you post says
"be subjected to the Father of spirits and be living.


# Hosea 5:4
They will not frame their doings to turn unto their God: for the spirit of whoredoms is in the midst of them, and they have not known the LORD.

Genesis 41:38
And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

[micah7:9]

Ill say no more, but it seems you have the idea that The Spirit and spirit are the same. They are not.

[thinktank]

You mean that to Nathan, right?

[micah7:9]

You mean that to Nathan, right?

I dont know for sure, do I?

[shawn]

For me, when Jesus said IN THIS WORLD you will have TRIALS and TRIBULATION . . .but . . .be of good cheer, I'VE OVERCOME THE WORLD. . .

That pretty much not only explains to me where and what hell is, but also that it's already been dealt with . . .even when I'm experiencing it, it's good to know that my Dad has already set it up so that I get through it without it killing me.

This makes quite a bit of sense to me, though it's a very foreign concept.  But, how does it relate to passages such as...

Matthew 13 Message

36Jesus dismissed the congregation and went into the house. His disciples came in and said, "Explain to us that story of the thistles in the field."
37-39So he explained. "The farmer who sows the pure seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, the pure seeds are subjects of the kingdom, the thistles are subjects of the Devil, and the enemy who sows them is the Devil. The harvest is the end of the age, the curtain of history. The harvest hands are angels.

40-43"The picture of thistles pulled up and burned is a scene from the final act. The Son of Man will send his angels, weed out the thistles from his kingdom, pitch them in the trash, and be done with them. They are going to complain to high heaven, but nobody is going to listen. At the same time, ripe, holy lives will mature and adorn the kingdom of their Father.

37 He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

NIV
   40 "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

This appears to be at the end of this age, not what is going on now.  So, do you believe Gehenna is basically hell on earth, while this passage is speaking of the LoF?  Or is this passage speaking about hell on earth, and I am taking the passage out of context?